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10/20/14 Have been given ability to edit, Updates Coming Soon!
[G] BE THE LEAF! A passive opening for PvT
The philosophy behind this build and my style of PvT:
The goal is to weave your way through the gates and make it to the other side without touching them. "The key is to be like the leaf flow with the movements of the gates. Air bending is all about spiral movements, When you meet resistance you must be able to switch direction at a moments notice."
-Tenzin
When related to my PvT, I try to flow with the movements of my opponent. I play very passively and reactively, And when my opponent offers up a form of hard resistance I am ready to transition and react at a moments notice. With constant scouting and good macro management you should be able to flow with your opponents aggression awaiting the perfect time to strike back and end the game in one swift protoss a-moving deathball :D
About me
+ Show Spoiler +Hello, I am AGIANTSMURF, frequent poster on Teamliquid and /r/starcraft. I am a North American Grandmaster protoss currently playing for the Complexity Academy. I have been a Grandmaster player for the past 4 seasons of ladder. Assuming I am playing actively and have avoided laddering when emotionally compromised (DAMN ZERGS!) I hover within the top 100 ranks of GM. For the past year or so, PvT has been my strongest Matchup. This is the first real guide I've written and cover's a build I have been working on and refining for over a year. At the time I began this guide I had a 62% win rate in PvT. Admittedly, since then it has gone down a little, but this is mostly due to mid game late game issues I face defending things like doom drops and hellbat drops etc..
About this opening
+ Show Spoiler +This is a guide for an OPENING BUILD ORDER. It does not cover mid game transitions, how to deal with mid-late game drops when to make Templar etc...
I have a very passive playstyle, I prefer to put myself in a position where I can scout and react, flowing gently like a leaf in the wind. Obviously, this build is very passive. You will not be scouting with your mothership core, you will not be doing 3 gate sentry pressure, you wont even be securing your own watchtower until the mid game. The purpose of this guide is to put you in an economical position and leave you in a stance where you have many options going into the mid game. This build offers the opportunity to stay even or ahead economically with just about any terran opener (except maybe CC first, you should probably go gateway - nexus - cybercore if they do that) while also granting you early game scouting through hallucination, and the basic infrastructure needed going into the mid game (sentries, a forge and a robotics)
The Build!
Quick note on chronoboost usage
+ Show Spoiler +You generally want to spend all of your chrono boost on probes all throughout the opening phase of the game. You will only be using 2 chrono boost elsewhere. 1 will go on your mothership core as it is in production, the other will go on your 1st sentry. The reason we chrono boost these units is because we want them to begin gathering energy ASAP. Chrono boost will effectively remove 10 seconds from their buildtime which as a result boost ahead the timing of their abilities by 10 seconds (I.E. your hallucination scout will be 10 seconds earlier if you chrono boost your sentry right as it begins). To make this easy to keep track off, here is a tip to make sure you are spending correctly. Prior to building your nexus on 20 supply, spend ALL your chrono boost on the nexus. Once you hit 20 and begin saving for your nexus you will gather enough energy for another chrono boost. The next 2 chrono boost following the construction of your nexus will go on the mothership core and then the sentry.
This is important. There have been many games where I did not chrono boost one or the other and it cost me the game under very special circumstances.
- 9 Pylon
- 13 Gateway
- 14 Gas *Important to get this one time if you want your mothership core out on time. Anything later will result in delayed MSC
- 15/16 Pylon (second)
- 17/18 Cybercore
*Note* I advise putting one of your first 2 pylons ( i use my second) behind your mineral line but on the side where drops are likely to come. This will allow you to add an early cannon if widow mine drops become a concern.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QOvPgMn.jpg)
- 17/18 Core (depends on probe stacking prowess, try not to cut probes)
- 18/19 Start a zealot, if you think/see him engineering bay block you, let it finish and use it to kill it. then drop your nexus and proceed as normal, you will probably need a faster 4th pylon.
- 20 Nexus!
After your nexus you a mothership core BEFORE you want to get warpgate upgrade. This is because you want to have it out before a reaper gets to your base, this should let you get away with not pulling more than 1-2 probes to move away from its attack. With your 13 gate probe you should have been able to at the very least poke up his ramp. There’s really only 2 things you want to look for.
1. He’s opening standard. 2 depot’s at the ramp, 1 rax forming a wall.
2. he’s not opening standard, there are 3 things he could have done from here, Gas First, 2 rax with 1 of them hidden somewhere (his natural most likely) or a proxy rax cheese build I.E. proxy reaper, proxy marauder or even 11 - 11 rax.
In the case of option 2, if its an 11 - 11 rax (you can identify this well before core is done) you should be chrono-boosting out a zealot followed with a stalker and getting a mothership core. pull probes to deny bunkers etc... this isn’t a “How to stop cheese guide” so thats about as in depth I’m going to go.
If he’s playing standard however we can proceed with the build, whether or not he opens gas is not really a factor (unless its gas first, which should be a sign to do a different build)
- 20 Mothership Core ( BEFORE WARPGATE + CHRONO BOOST IT!)
- 22 Warp Gate
- 22 gas (second)
- Pylon (third) close to natural nexus/mineral line
- 24 Sentry (CHRONO BOOST IT!)
*Note* You should be able to afford the 2nd geyser + pylon while MSC is in production, when it is finished you should be able to afford probes again.
The next 100 gas following your core should be spent on a sentry. This is your first gateway unit. you should be able to get out 2 sentries before warpgate is done.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HaMiVNp.jpg)
aside from 1 chrono boost on the mothership core, and 1 chrono boost on the sentry, all of your chrono boost should be going onto probes.
- 28 Sentry
- 28/30 Forge
- 28/30 Gateway
**When nexus is complete, transfer exactly 5 probes from your main to your natural. I will explain why later.
- 34-36 Robotics Facility (when finished chrono 2-3 obs depending on your mid game transition)
**Special Note** When warp gate is finished, this is a very important timing for you, remember when you transferred exactly 5 probes to your natural? well if you check your main (and assuming you haven't cut probes/haven't lost more than 1 for scouting/to a reaper), you’ll be saturated with 16 probes on minerals and 3 on each gas. WarpGate is basically an audio queue to rally your main nexus to your natural, incidentally this is also the timing you want to grab both of your natural gasses!!! :D See how well this all works out!? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Lruhvng.jpg)
Warp in 2 sentries immediately after transforming your gateways bringing your army count to 4 sentries + 1 mother ship core. This is a bare minimal army and as you can see its very mineral light allowing you to focus on probe production and infrastructure.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MaJwgep.jpg)
Knowing when to build a cannon!
This is something that I determine from my initial 13 scout as well as paying attention to the terran's actions afterward. Let me explain:
- If I scout the terran has opened gas, but has NOT scouted me with a reaper, I build a cannon in my main mineral line.
- If I scout the terran has NOT opened gas, I do not build a cannon in my mineral line
- If I scout the terran has opened gas but then scouts me with a reaper, I do not build a cannon UNLESS I scout fast factory/starport with my hallucinated phoenix
- If I am unable to scout the terran due to a wall, I hide my probe nearby and check his natural around 4-4:30. If he has not expanded to his natural, I build a cannon in my mineral line. If he Has expanded, I do not build a cannon in my mineral line prior to scouting.
- 40-50 supply, depending on what you scout with your hallucination, you may or may not need to immediately add 2-3 additional gateways in order to have enough units to defend pressure. If he is being aggressive with tanks or widow mines, you should go up to 3-4 gates to have enough units to defend. You absolutely want 4-5 gates by the time he is pushing out with medivacs. If he is making marauders, an immortal can be useful, if he is staying marine heavy you are better off with faster tech.
Replay Section:
Vs. 1 base factory - http://drop.sc/328529
Vs. 2 rax with proxied factory - http://drop.sc/328530
Vs. early 2 rax aggression - http://drop.sc/328531
Vs. delayed widow mine drop - http://drop.sc/328532
Vs. widow mine drop - http://drop.sc/328533
Vs. funky play against Last Shadow - http://drop.sc/328888
F.A.Q. Section
He blocked my expansion with an Engineering bay! How do I adapt?
+ Show Spoiler +You should have had a zealot in production in anticipation for this. If he leaves your base early towards your natural, pull a probe and start zapping away. If he commits to the engineering bay even with your probe hitting it, you want to shift - attack click the scv multiple times to insure that the probe follows it accurately when it moves. Start your mothership core before your nexus. The engineering bay shouldn't finish with too much HP. Let the zealot/probe take it down, continue probe production following the core and drop the nexus as soon as the engineering bay is canceled.
There's a Reaper in my base! What do I do?
+ Show Spoiler +Keep calm and make probes. Unless they cut stuff and rush out a reaper, your mothership core will spawn just as it arrives at your base. Some probe micro on your part and making sure the mothership core zones it properly will prevent you from losing any probes. It also helps if you position your 2nd pylon + cybercore to wall off sections near your mineral line to limit potential reaper mobility.
Whats this early forge for again?
+ Show Spoiler +Versatility, the early forge allows you to cannon each mineral line early on in the event of a widow mine drop rush, If this is not a threat it also serves for early upgrades.
Why should I build a cannon when I can just have an observer?
+ Show Spoiler +Observer's are a good way to deal with mine drops. However with the minimal gateway units we have for the early game you dont really want to split anything unless completely necessary. Also having an observer in your main will not stop the mine from burrowing and detonating killing clumps of probes. It also sucks when you don't have an obs or units 100% ready and you are forced to pull probes for long periods of time.
How do I stop early pushes with just 4 sentries and a mothership core?
+ Show Spoiler +
The mothership core is so early that it will have energy for the Nexus cannon ability in time for just about any terran push that hits AFTER your natural nexus is completed. Slightly delayed pushes will allow the nexus cannon time to gather energy for back to back nexus cannons, that's 2 full minutes of Nexus defense. This combined with well placed forcefields, a cannon + a few other gateway units should be more than enough to deflect any pre-medivac push.
Why should I cut stuff to add more gateways If I'm spending all my money with just 2 + tech?
+ Show Spoiler +When terran has medivacs and or tanks, they become much much scarier. In these situations the nexus cannon loses its effectiveness. You may be forced to engage outside of its range or you may be forced to split your army into 2 or more groups. In these situations you want closer to 4-5 gateways in order to warp in more effectively and make it easier to be in 2 or more places at once.
Ok I've followed everything in this guide, What do I do next?
+ Show Spoiler +That's totally up to you, If you're able to make it to 8minutes and havent lost half your probes to widow mines or some other form of early aggression, then congratulations. The awesome part of this build is that you can transition into almost anything.
Personally, my favorite is either blink into colossus, or Dark templar drops off of 2 base just as the terran pushes out. If this guide garners enough interest then I will consider writing follow up guides about more of the stuff I do in the Mid game.
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Approximately what time ingame time do you hallucinate scout?
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On April 29 2013 07:17 Complete wrote:
Approximately what time ingame time do you hallucinate scout?
i'd say around 6:40 - 6:45. right around the time warpgate finishes.
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I love u. Pvt has always been my worst mu and this should help a lot.
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On April 29 2013 07:27 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 07:17 Complete wrote:
Approximately what time ingame time do you hallucinate scout? i'd say around 6:40 - 6:45. right around the time warpgate finishes.
It is with the first 100 energy you get on your first sentry correct?
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link to game vs. lastshadow has been fixed
On April 29 2013 08:05 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 07:27 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On April 29 2013 07:17 Complete wrote:
Approximately what time ingame time do you hallucinate scout? i'd say around 6:40 - 6:45. right around the time warpgate finishes. It is with the first 100 energy you get on your first sentry correct?
yes this is correct. If you are forced to use a forcefield then the 2nd sentry will have energy ~30 seconds later
if you cant scout on that one too you have the robotics finishing up around 6:50 - 7:00 to chronoboost an observer out
if they are being pesky with a reaper, i would advise against using a forcefield unless you are 100% going to kill it.
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Knowing when to build a cannon!
I played around with 1gate fe into forge some weeks ago. In most games it was possible to scout with the mothershipcore and reactionarily put down cannons. This might be an option if you cannot get into the terran's base with ur probe.
I don't actually remember why i put this opening aside, maybe cause it was too boring ^^
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My only question is: what percentage of your opponents cry about how you did nothing all game and then you won?
Also this looks like a good opening that fits my style for PvT and I'll be using it.
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I saw a KR GM protoss with 80%~ winrate PvT and he has a similar build order. Nice guide, I learned quite a bit.
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Most pros I've seen do this build with 15/16 double gas with 2 probes, adding to 3 after the first sentry, and getting robo after the first sentry without delaying the second by much. If you do this, your first observer will be ready at the same time your hallu is, so on 4 players maps you can scout in two directions simultaneously. Since you probe scout I guess it's not so important though.
It's a great opening, safe against pretty much everything while being quite greedy at the same time. Good macro benchmark is to have 2 base saturation (44 probes) by 8:00.
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On April 29 2013 09:06 iSTime wrote:
My only question is: what percentage of your opponents cry about how you did nothing all game and then you won?
Also this looks like a good opening that fits my style for PvT and I'll be using it.
I have tasted the tears of many terran foes. When people do rage, I get alot of people complaining that they cant pressure me early game despite me having nothing but sentries and a core.
On April 29 2013 10:16 habermas wrote:
Most pros I've seen do this build with 15/16 double gas with 2 probes, adding to 3 after the first sentry, and getting robo after the first sentry without delaying the second by much. If you do this, your first observer will be ready at the same time your hallu is, so on 4 players maps you can scout in two directions simultaneously. Since you probe scout I guess it's not so important though.
It's a great opening, safe against pretty much everything while being quite greedy at the same time. Good macro benchmark is to have 2 base saturation (44 probes) by 8:00.
Close enough. (from last shadow rep) If I hit all my chronoboost and dont supply block, this is an easy benchmark to hit.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QwguQEA.png)
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Awesome. I hope you write a guide on handling midgame (I keep crumpling to good drops in mid-masters) if it's going to be as well-laid out as this one.
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Hey! Nice guide. It will help me expand earlier than I do now (I usually do two gases before expo, which slows it down quite a bit). Just one thing you shold mention: why so many sentries? I was under the impression that you only need one or two because the MsC helps with early aggression.
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On April 29 2013 11:56 ant-1 wrote:
Hey! Nice guide. It will help me expand earlier than I do now (I usually do two gases before expo, which slows it down quite a bit). Just one thing you shold mention: why so many sentries? I was under the impression that you only need one or two because the MsC helps with early aggression.
you start with 2 built from gateways and then another 2 after warpgate is done. This leaves you with 4 sentries. These are generally all the sentries I make throughout the entire game as I begin investing gas heavily into tech right away around the 7:30 - 8minute mark. Any good protoss will try to have atleast 4 sentries going into the mid game for forcefields and guardian shield unless they are doing a tech heavy opening like dt's or blink or stargate
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This fits well with my passive/macro playstyle. Thanks, I'm sure this will help me a lot.
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Damn, we need some terran builds =(
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Thank you for the guide, I look forward to checking over the replays. As others have said, it'd be awesome if you explained the mid-game, particularly the third timing while defending drops.
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Thanks for the guide! I needed a new official HOTS opener and this looks great. However, I must point out that you left out your first gas timing and second pylon timing. I'm assuming its 14 and 15 because that's pretty common (and I see the picture =D) but it might be a good idea to put in the guide.
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On April 29 2013 13:11 Hotdawg wrote:
Thanks for the guide! I needed a new official HOTS opener and this looks great. However, I must point out that you left out your first gas timing and second pylon timing. I'm assuming its 14 and 15 because that's pretty common (and I see the picture =D) but it might be a good idea to put in the guide.
Fixed, thank you 
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I don't play protoss, but this appears like a well written guide and the Avatar reference behind it is very nice =p
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Good guide.
I think the forge could be cut until after robotics for some optimization. If you do it this way you could also decide to add double forge if the terran is being very greedy. The only time I'd think of ever getting a forge that early is if you do a pre-10 minute attack timing, which you don't really see too often anymore.
edit: guess I'll add some reasoning. If the terran is going 1 base mine drop or proxy mines you should become aware of this if they have not expanded within a certain amount of time. If you scout the proxy factory you can just kite mines before they get anywhere near inside your base. If they're going for a drop you'll surely have observers by this time if you build your robotics slightly faster.
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This build is pretty much the same as a 1gate->msc->nexus->fast robo->fast colo
Or at least it fulfills the same purpose. What i dont understand is, why you go for such an early forge for those cannons when you could just get out the fast robo, get out 2 observers (one for his base one for yours), get out fast colos and 3 more gates and youll still end up at the same point at 8 minutes, just that you wont have slowed yourself down unnecesarily with the early forge, when you can just drop a doulbe forge at 8 minutes and quickly recoup the time lost on your first upgrade of choice. Also youll be farther in tech and wont have to waste another 300 minerals on cannons in your mineral line. Im only mid masters EU so id really like to hear your gm opinion on why you do it the way you do and not the way that i just posted here. :D
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Loved the guide the moment i'd read the avatar quote  besides i also love this opening since I had a lot of trouble being drop save yet economically stable! Good one. The mid game guide would be nice too
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I have seen similar build from MVPSuper during his ATC matches...I have been using this build primary on Whirlwind and Akilon waste or some big map...
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On April 29 2013 23:58 onewaystyx wrote:
This build is pretty much the same as a 1gate->msc->nexus->fast robo->fast colo
Or at least it fulfills the same purpose. What i dont understand is, why you go for such an early forge for those cannons when you could just get out the fast robo, get out 2 observers (one for his base one for yours), get out fast colos and 3 more gates and youll still end up at the same point at 8 minutes, just that you wont have slowed yourself down unnecesarily with the early forge, when you can just drop a doulbe forge at 8 minutes and quickly recoup the time lost on your first upgrade of choice. Also youll be farther in tech and wont have to waste another 300 minerals on cannons in your mineral line. Im only mid masters EU so id really like to hear your gm opinion on why you do it the way you do and not the way that i just posted here. :D
Its really just a matter of preference, some small advantages in my build include a faster nexus and sentries. I dont like going fast colossus into double forge because its very gas heavy and vulnerable to drop heavy playstyles. My mid game preference is to go for fast blink or for a mid game dt drop. While its possible to go for either of these with the fast robo as you described, things seem to flow much better for me with my build order.
You could use units and an observer to stop widow mine drops, but that requires you to have the units. At a standard widow mine drop timing my army count is small, It's easier to stop a widow mine drop with a cannon in my opinion because there is no risk of the widow mine killing the cannon to a mis micro.
The cannon also serves a purpose in the mid game in helping to defend against other drops.
Its only a waste of 300 minerals if the terran does not go for any form of harass, which these days is rarely the case. If I feel as if the terran is not going for harassment then I do not build the cannons.
Overall, I'm not saying my build is necessarily better than the one you described, it just offers a different approach. Some people (like myself) might find it easier and more effective to defend widow mine drop with a cannon, others might find it better with a forge. Honestly you should try learning both so that you can catch people off-guard when they think they know you're opening
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I think there's a better way to MSC expand in PvT:
(a) If you want to skip the early sentry and just get 3 stalkers once wg is finished, you go 13 gate 13 gas (delay second chrono) --> MSC expand (gas pylon afterwards) --> robo at 4:40 --> stalker at 5:00 --> 2nd gateway at 5:15. Warp in 2 stalkers once wg is finished. This is super safe against widow mines, but I think it may not be as safe against hellions without medivacs. I haven't tried to figure out hellion timings though.
(b) If you want a stalker + sentry to block your ramp against hellions (or for w/e reason you think an early sentry is necessary), you go double gas at 15 --> MSC expand (pylon afterwards) --> 1 sentry then 3 stalkers --> robo at 5:00. With this version of the build, your second gateway is delayed for a while (or skipped). I haven't practiced this one yet, but this is the new MSC expand version Tails has started doing recently.
Neither of these 2 includes a zealot, though you can start it and then cancel it to avoid getting ebay blocked. I don't find double forge colossus vulnerable to drops at all though. I noticed the games I've lost recently was because I didn't get 16 probes on minerals in each base by 8:40 (so my gateways were late and I missed an essential warp in wave that takes place before you can open them) - which is when you should cut probes in order to get your extra gateways up (total of 6). At this point, I already have 3 stalkers + 3 observers + 4 sentries and a colossus that starts at about 8:00. I believe once you start your upgrades, which is soon after you built your gateways, you have to warp in 2 more stalkers. You can use observers to spot drops at the main, keep stalkers by your ramp (depending on the map), 4 sentries + colossus at natural, and MSC in between both bases (again, map dependent). At 9:50-10:00, you warp in 6 extra units and defend. But if you mess up like I did the other game and have only 3 stalkers + 4 sentries + colossus after 10 minutes, the build is definitely going to fail vs a good drop. You need to make sure your timings are sharp to build truly safe.
PS: I haven't checked your cannon timings exactly. I might actually be easier to defend against early aggression depending on how fast you get your cannons. But I'm not sure if easier means better in the long run. I guess it depends on the strategy you're going for, though I think 300 minerals is a bit much before you get your gateways up, but I'll take a look at the build anyway.
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On April 30 2013 01:27 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 23:58 onewaystyx wrote:
This build is pretty much the same as a 1gate->msc->nexus->fast robo->fast colo
Or at least it fulfills the same purpose. What i dont understand is, why you go for such an early forge for those cannons when you could just get out the fast robo, get out 2 observers (one for his base one for yours), get out fast colos and 3 more gates and youll still end up at the same point at 8 minutes, just that you wont have slowed yourself down unnecesarily with the early forge, when you can just drop a doulbe forge at 8 minutes and quickly recoup the time lost on your first upgrade of choice. Also youll be farther in tech and wont have to waste another 300 minerals on cannons in your mineral line. Im only mid masters EU so id really like to hear your gm opinion on why you do it the way you do and not the way that i just posted here. :D Its really just a matter of preference, some small advantages in my build include a faster nexus and sentries. I dont like going fast colossus into double forge because its very gas heavy and vulnerable to drop heavy playstyles. My mid game preference is to go for fast blink or for a mid game dt drop. While its possible to go for either of these with the fast robo as you described, things seem to flow much better for me with my build order. You could use units and an observer to stop widow mine drops, but that requires you to have the units. At a standard widow mine drop timing my army count is small, It's easier to stop a widow mine drop with a cannon in my opinion because there is no risk of the widow mine killing the cannon to a mis micro. The cannon also serves a purpose in the mid game in helping to defend against other drops. Its only a waste of 300 minerals if the terran does not go for any form of harass, which these days is rarely the case. If I feel as if the terran is not going for harassment then I do not build the cannons. Overall, I'm not saying my build is necessarily better than the one you described, it just offers a different approach. Some people (like myself) might find it easier and more effective to defend widow mine drop with a cannon, others might find it better with a forge. Honestly you should try learning both so that you can catch people off-guard when they think they know you're opening
Okay i see your point. We just play different builds i guess. I opt to go for a later nexus and a bit more units a bit earlier so i can defend vs widow mines with obs and army. By doing so i cant get an early forge but much rather get two at 8 minutes. Similiar builds, just some slight differences. What the main thing is though, is that i opt to go for templar archives and hts while i get my third instead of blink stalkers and dts. So i prefer a much more straight up macro approach the to MU.
I also dont like to get the mid game stalkers and dts. These two units i get only in the late game, which is probably why i use the build i do, since i can then invest the excess gas into the doulbe ups, colo tech and then a bit later hts.
Both builds work i guess, but the thing with the cannons keeps bothering me x) If you have such an early msc i think that you could easily defend vs widow mine drops with nexus cannons + the few units you have. I really think (especially as a grandmaster) that you can micro well enough and react fast enough to cut the two cannons. I mean those are two gates more that youll have then.
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On April 30 2013 02:13 vhapter wrote:I think there's a better way to MSC expand in PvT: (a) If you want to skip the early sentry and just get 3 stalkers once wg is finished, you go 13 gate 13 gas (delay second chrono) --> MSC expand (gas pylon afterwards) --> robo at 4:40 --> stalker at 5:00 --> 2nd gateway at 5:15. Warp in 2 stalkers once wg is finished. This is super safe against widow mines, but I think it may not be as safe against hellions without medivacs. I haven't tried to figure out hellion timings though. (b) If you want a stalker + sentry to block your ramp against hellions (or for w/e reason you think an early sentry is necessary), you go double gas at 15 --> MSC expand (pylon afterwards) --> 1 sentry then 3 stalkers --> robo at 5:00. With this version of the build, your second gateway is delayed for a while (or skipped). I haven't practiced this one yet, but this is the new MSC expand version Tails has started doing recently. Neither of these 2 includes a zealot, though you can start it and then cancel it to avoid getting ebay blocked. I don't find double forge colossus vulnerable to drops at all though. I noticed the games I've lost recently was because I didn't get 16 probes on minerals in each base by 8:40 (so my gateways were late and I missed an essential warp in wave that takes place before you can open them) - which is when you should cut probes in order to get your extra gateways up (total of 6). At this point, I already have 3 stalkers + 3 observers + 4 sentries and a colossus that starts at about 8:00. I believe once you start your upgrades, which is soon after you built your gateways, you have to warp in 2 more stalkers. You can use observers to spot drops at the main, keep stalkers by your ramp (depending on the map), 4 sentries + colossus at natural, and MSC in between both bases (again, map dependent). At 9:50-10:00, you warp in 6 extra units and defend. But if you mess up like I did the other game and have only 3 stalkers + 4 sentries + colossus after 10 minutes, the build is definitely going to fail vs a good drop. You need to make sure your timings are sharp to build truly safe. PS: I haven't checked your cannon timings exactly. I might actually be easier to defend against early aggression depending on how fast you get your cannons. But I'm not sure if easier means better in the long run. I guess it depends on the strategy you're going for, though I think 300 minerals is a bit much before you get your gateways up, but I'll take a look at the build anyway.
In wings of liberty I did a variation of this build that got 3 fast stalkers and a fast robo for map control, however stalkers are very mineral heavy and limit the money spent on powering econ. The whole point of my build is to be very army minimal in the early game so that I can power economy as much as possible. Assuming they do not opt for widow mine drops I'm powering my economy as much as possible while also staying safe from EVERYTHING while also being able to SCOUT and REACT to anything. this build is a jack of all trades.
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Going for an early forge + 300 minerals worth of cannons is actually more expensive early on. You most likely do not cut probes with your build, but I can assure you 3 stalkers total at 6:30 requires NO probe cut either until you have 16 probes on minerals in each base. In fact, you spend a chrono on your gateway while I spend none. I can see how a second and third stalker delay a player's double forge timing, but that's tech, not economy (not to mention double forge with anything but a single stalker + MSC is pretty greedy, even though it is totally safe against 10 minute medivac timings). Skipping stalkers wouldn't make the build I mentioned more economical at all, just more tech oriented.
I'll take a look at this build later. I don't think I'll get such an early forge instead of my dearly beloved stalkers, but I may be able to get some ideas or at least see how it works compared to how I play.
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Thanks for the interesting guide!
I'm quite new to protoss so this question may be silly, but when do you get first gas?
I noticed "22 gas (second)" but can't find where you do the first one. (Perhaps this is so standard most protoss players already know?)
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vhapter (and whomever else), if you want to post the build order you use in PvT, I'll run both build orders and make a comparison between what units you have at various points in time sometime next weekend.
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On April 30 2013 08:34 iSTime wrote:
vhapter (and whomever else), if you want to post the build order you use in PvT, I'll run both build orders and make a comparison between what units you have at various points in time sometime next weekend.
Sure man. I'll see if I can post it as soon as I have enough time.
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Just did this build a couple times, its pretty damn good against all this funky drop play terrans do, that cannon is really useful. One small variation i did was instead of getting a 3rd sentry I got +1 armor started very quickly and got a zealot instead. I find that I don't need as many sentries because of the mothership core.
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Deffinitely gonna try this opening cuz with my actual one i am always only 3 /4 workers ahead, not enough !.
thx for posting.
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On April 30 2013 08:34 iSTime wrote:
vhapter (and whomever else), if you want to post the build order you use in PvT, I'll run both build orders and make a comparison between what units you have at various points in time sometime next weekend.
Ill be sure to post mine as well :D
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Thanks for the guide. I have a question.
Why do you get a second Gate? Do you really need a 4th Sentry? I don't think its been standard to get 4 Sentries in PvT for quite some time now. You could add the Robo instead of the 4th Sentry and 2nd Gate early, and then just get 2 gates later.
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Since i play your style, I won every pvt #lolloveyou
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A cool thing of having a forge early is that you can start +1 armor somewhat soon, than +1 attack and forge+TC when +1 is at 50% and have 2-2 going ony slightly later than the typical double forge opening. You can cancel the upgrades and get stalker or cannon if early pressure is coming.
You end up with the same infrastructure as the double forge build against the 10-10:30 bio timing if Terran didn't harass, but you have the possibility of earlier cannons. Pretty cool build.
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Great guide,
I like how you explain the build, Im eager to try it. I have a question. What do you do against the other races? Do you have a "be the leaf" build when playing against P or Z?
Thanks!
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This build is great. For a long time I thought cannons in my mineral line were a waste, but let's be honest: when do you ever not need a cannon in your mineral line against Terran in HOTS?
I actually really like omitting Robotics completely and going 1 Gate FE > 4x Sentry > 2x Forge > Twilight > Templar Archives (for archons in time to defend medivac push).
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Thx for that build
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Made some minor edits to note that you should be going mothership core BEFORE warpgate to make sure you have something to defend reaper harass early enough. You can also delay the second gas and get a stalker out before the sentry if you are more comfortable.
Will be able to hopefully update by the end of next week with some more up to date replays!
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keen as beans thanks alot
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nice guide. It seems it is similar to State's PvP opening. I like it how every match up can envolve 1 gate core expand
I also like the cannon when to build guide and differnt timings. Would it be okay if you try to add some follow ups on what you scout after this? say when to go air / dark templar/ storm etc and timings?
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thank you for updating the guide
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People been accusing me of map hacking without scouting the drops and putting cannons blindly on my mineral lines. Don't do this build unless you wanna get reported as a hacker!
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Hey GIANTSMURF, thanks for the amazing guide (love the Avatar reference). I've been struggling with PvT in HoTS really badly (about 18% win rate right now) and this looks like a great build. I love the replays, learned a lot from them.
I noticed that 4 out of your 6 replays were on Daybreak. Do you think you could upload some more of maps in the current ladder map pool?
Also, I noticed that in these games, none of the Terrans went for any sort of early aggression. How do you deal with stim/combat shield timing attacks in the 7-9 minute range? It looks like you stay on 4 sentries and a core for quite a long time, and you get robo, DT, templar, and twilight tech all at the same time. If your 6:45 phoenix hallu scout shows a 3-5 rax build, what is your response?
Again, thanks for the great build, hope to see more from you!
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How many gateways are required before getting a third base?
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as a general rule, at least 6 gateway
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Hey guys, I'm bumping this.
It's been about 1 year since I wrote this guide. IT STILL WORKS!!
COMING SOON!
I'm working on a follow guide for a DT drop build that I used to use A LOT that still works today at the masters level. I'm also going to edit this guide with some minor adjustments to the BO as well as some minor pathways and transitions that you can consider when teching up into the mid game.
GIVE ME TWO WEEKS TOPS!!!
On April 28 2013 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Personally, my favorite is either blink into colossus, or Dark templar drops off of 2 base just as the terran pushes out. If this guide garners enough interest then I will consider writing follow up guides about more of the stuff I do in the Mid game.
This is the build I'm referring to btw ^
also, I havent been able to think of a name yet, so im taking suggestions for the dt drop build. If I dont think of a name by the time I finish I will just pick someone elses idea :D
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Yeah, it totally works. I was away from SC for at least 8 months, and just came back for some fun. Had several PvT:s in a row where I used solely this very start as I could not remember anything else useful, and it took me no time to get matched against top masters. Now my MMR is too high and I need to get back to reality
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great! I am really looking forward to it! I find myself without a properly refined PvT Bo atm (did almost exclusively 2base Templar but somehow hit a wall with it atm), so this is juuuust what I need
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I think that you should build a warp prism first from the robo to do counter harrass @ the 9-10 min mark when terran is pushing out to delay the 10min push and buy some more time for other things like upgrades.
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And it took you half a year since the last post to think of that..?
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On October 19 2014 09:36 SC2Toastie wrote:
And it took you half a year since the last post to think of that..?
Better than a full year right!
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Italy12246 Posts
Do not necro threads in the future please.
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On April 29 2013 10:37 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 09:06 iSTime wrote:
My only question is: what percentage of your opponents cry about how you did nothing all game and then you won?
Also this looks like a good opening that fits my style for PvT and I'll be using it.
I have tasted the tears of many terran foes. When people do rage, I get alot of people complaining that they cant pressure me early game despite me having nothing but sentries and a core. Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 10:16 habermas wrote:
Most pros I've seen do this build with 15/16 double gas with 2 probes, adding to 3 after the first sentry, and getting robo after the first sentry without delaying the second by much. If you do this, your first observer will be ready at the same time your hallu is, so on 4 players maps you can scout in two directions simultaneously. Since you probe scout I guess it's not so important though.
It's a great opening, safe against pretty much everything while being quite greedy at the same time. Good macro benchmark is to have 2 base saturation (44 probes) by 8:00. Close enough. (from last shadow rep) If I hit all my chronoboost and dont supply block, this is an easy benchmark to hit.
Terran can't punish that, though. That's the beauty of ez Protoss.
User was warned for this post
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Italy12246 Posts
Seriously why the fuck do you people keep posting useless stuff in here?
This guide is outdated for a variety of reasons and you aren't adding any kind of meaningful discussion. Do not keep going.
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On October 20 2014 21:12 Teoita wrote:
Seriously why the fuck do you people keep posting useless stuff in here?
This guide is outdated for a variety of reasons and you aren't adding any kind of meaningful discussion. Do not keep going.
Why are you so angry about people posting in a forum? If there is interest in a thread, there will be posts.
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On October 20 2014 22:20 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 21:12 Teoita wrote:
Seriously why the fuck do you people keep posting useless stuff in here?
This guide is outdated for a variety of reasons and you aren't adding any kind of meaningful discussion. Do not keep going. Why are you so angry about people posting in a forum? If there is interest in a thread, there will be posts.
Surprised this actually got bumped.
Personally I still think this build is useful, atleast diamond and below. I've since made some modifications and will try my best to update the guide although I dont think I can make edits to the OP :-(
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Canada13389 Posts
If the OP is going to be updated and revised etc etc, then I've done it so you can update it now. Edit should be available.
On October 20 2014 22:20 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 21:12 Teoita wrote:
Seriously why the fuck do you people keep posting useless stuff in here?
This guide is outdated for a variety of reasons and you aren't adding any kind of meaningful discussion. Do not keep going. Why are you so angry about people posting in a forum? If there is interest in a thread, there will be posts.
It's because people aren't currently adding to the discussion really, its a necro of an old thread with a one liner and then a balance whine following it. So!
It might be better to just write a new OP smurf rather than updating this one if the opening or branching decision making is significantly different.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah i'd say write a new OP as well.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4XSpk8E.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3PFsQWi.jpg)
