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On April 21 2013 01:23 DaemonX wrote:
Hi iShockz. I have an issue with this style, in that terrans go reactor hellion before CC, they can have 4 hellions in my base before 6:30, before my roaches are out. 4 hellions can get a crazy number of drone kills without any speedlings or spines to shut them down...I lost 2 games to that today and am wondering what the answer is.
Terran isn't terribly behind as the factor-first doesn't seem to delay him too much since his gas doesn't have to be super early (13 after rax is fine).
The 4 Queen opening shuts down any reactor helion play.
You simply scout his opening by seeing no early lowground expansion with your overlord and start to wall off with your roachwarren and evochambers. The hellions won't get any drone kills because you stay on 2 bases with the save style relativley long and then push out with your roaches while getting the 3rd.
The reactor hellion expand terran will most likley not be able to defend the first roach push without taking to much damage. Overall thats a really bad opening vs. this roach style for the terran, and you are far ahead.
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roach hydra is a pretty futile style. It simply can't compete with MMM. Marine/marauder is just more effective and even more mobile to boot with medivac support. Mines are a bit crap against this style though with roaches being able to soak them fairly well, if terran reverts to the class MMM + tanks you are just at a disadvantage.
Hydra's are still a fairly crappy unit just because they have gotten a speed boost (at a hefty research price) doesn't suddenly turn them into great units. Their dps/hp ratio is still the smae as stalkers, pretty lousy. Roach buffer makes them use that dps relatively well but roaches are a terrible buffer against marauders.
Complimenting that roach/hydra transitions lousy into ultra which are really great now. Dropping drops is still a hassle with this build.
To be honest though no style is good against MMMM now, ling/bling/muta and roach/hydra are both underpowered as terran is just slightly overpowered in the matchup at the moment. ling/bling/muta is just the best option though
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On April 24 2013 18:02 Markwerf wrote:
roach hydra is a pretty futile style. It simply can't compete with MMM. Marine/marauder is just more effective and even more mobile to boot with medivac support. Mines are a bit crap against this style though with roaches being able to soak them fairly well, if terran reverts to the class MMM + tanks you are just at a disadvantage.
Hydra's are still a fairly crappy unit just because they have gotten a speed boost (at a hefty research price) doesn't suddenly turn them into great units. Their dps/hp ratio is still the smae as stalkers, pretty lousy. Roach buffer makes them use that dps relatively well but roaches are a terrible buffer against marauders.
Complimenting that roach/hydra transitions lousy into ultra which are really great now. Dropping drops is still a hassle with this build.
To be honest though no style is good against MMMM now, ling/bling/muta and roach/hydra are both underpowered as terran is just slightly overpowered in the matchup at the moment. ling/bling/muta is just the best option though
In small numbers roach hydra do very well vs mmm. In large numbers you need infestors and vipers. More and more pros are going this style and figuring out the kinks. I wouldn't say its futile. It feels weak because you are fighting an uphill battle until late game when your hive units come out but its very good once your hive units come out and you start getting more cost effective.
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Russian Federation50 Posts
Actually, transitioning out of roaches into SH works vs both mech and bio. You will have to be heavier on infestors in this case, but it allows for very cost effective trades which is exactly the counter to bio play.
Drops in this case are only an issue while you're halfway through the transition. Once your SH count is large enough, you should start floating minerals and can get tons of static defense, and every drop means the locusts can push further (also, you should be able to afford to keep an infestor or two at home, catching a doom drop in a field of spores instantly ends the game).
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I have been using Roach / Hydra a lot, and have been doing fairly well at high diamond.
Once I get 3 bases fully saturated I like to poke with My army to see if I can deny his third. While I poke I throw down a fourth and start feeding Infestors in to the mix.
If the Terran stays on Bio I will add in Ultralisks, even with no melee upgrades 5/0 Ultras can tank a ton of damage while Roaches/Hydras clean up the rest of the army.
If Terran switches to Bio/Tank I will add in about 10 Swarm Hosts to keep him sieged up while I expand as much as possible and tech to Broodlords.
The army comp is pretty terrible against mass drops, but you end up with a huge bank of minerals since gas is almost always the limiting factor. Its usually a good idea to throw 4 spines and 2 spores down at every base (even your main).
Edit: vs. Bio Tank you can not keep your swarm hosts stationary, you need to spawn locusts and then shift positions and kite away if he stims and kills them all. If you don't you might lose all your swarmhosts. Killing all 10 marines or so is a good trade for all your locusts, and you will slowly thin his bio unless he camps by his tanks.
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Thanks for guide, but why does the replays not work. Am i being an idiot again??
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On April 26 2013 05:17 ZedraC wrote:
Thanks for guide, but why does the replays not work. Am i being an idiot again??
The replays are working,
just the replaysite is not displaying it right, eitherway you just have to click on download, then paste the replayfile into your replayfolder in sc2 and launch it via starcraft.
Drop.sc was offline during i uploaded the replays thats why i used an other hoster.
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Canada16217 Posts
Roach Hydra is a really good composition right now, I used to go muta ling vs T in WOL but I never used it vs T in Hots for far due to how well Roach Hydra works for me.
Good guide! Thanks for this so other players can use this style.
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I must be the only person who thinks this is harder than muta-ling-bling. Then again, it's my go-to build. Also, I don't quite know when I can and can't be aggressive with roach-hydra. Not my usual style, so it's tough.
Still, I think it's good to have in my arsenal of builds.
EdIT: So I have been working on this build, but I never seem to have enough gas. Ling/Bling muta feels much more flexible in that if I don't have gas, I can just spam lings. Anyone else having this problem? Or is it that I can't be wasting as much of my fighting units in this composition? I'll post a replay or two when I get home./
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I came out of WoL using only Muta/ling/bling, and have gotten really sufficient with the control and apm required to manage such an army. But even with excellent control you are still very vulnerable to widow mines killing everything. Since HotS release I have been using almost pure roach/hydra into viper and I must say it is excellent against both biomine and mech.
This guide is really spot on, and the combination between viper/infestor is something that should be noted, because it allows roach/hydra to continue to be viable into late game. If the terran opponent goes into heavy tank/widow mine production, then you will be looking to transition into ultralisk/hydra/viper. But the core composition of this build can handle most terran compositions without needing to transition. You are always free to drop a spire and make a flock of mutalisks if it seems the drops will not stop.
I have had great success with this build, and having it written down in a concise and easily mimicked format is great, thanks ishokz.
One quick note that should be re-iterated is that, unless your Roach/Hydra army looks similar in size to the terrans bio, DO NOT ENGAGE. If you begin to trade inefficiently you will quickly fall behind and may be hard pressed to find a solution for getting back into the game.
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Against this, as terran I start mmm without mines and slowly get a fleet of ravens with the excess gas, which basically becomes a wasted resource if unused when you have 0 minerals and 2k+ gas. PDD reduces hydra dps to zero and seeker missile = flying roach / hydra corpses (hard to outrun 13 range when it's deployed right on top of you, which it can be because of pdd blocking hydra shots).
edit: using this guide for roach / hydra as Z (offrace), really liking it. In a lot of engagements vs bio that I think I have no way of winning, I somehow end up killing everything and still have many units left over...stats-wise you'd think hydras would be totally useless against any marine based army but they are so strong somehow..
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On April 30 2013 07:53 Genome852 wrote:
Against this, as terran I start mmm without mines and slowly get a fleet of ravens with the excess gas, which basically becomes a wasted resource if unused when you have 0 minerals and 2k+ gas. PDD reduces hydra dps to zero and seeker missile = flying roach / hydra corpses (hard to outrun 13 range when it's deployed right on top of you, which it can be because of pdd blocking hydra shots).
edit: using this guide for roach / hydra as Z (offrace), really liking it. In a lot of engagements vs bio that I think I have no way of winning, I somehow end up killing everything and still have many units left over...stats-wise you'd think hydras would be totally useless against any marine based army but they are so strong somehow..
If your transitioning into ravens, you should be already maxxed, otherwise your medivac-count is so low that you just get overran.
And if you are maxxed roach hydra will also transition. So i think thats not the right way to encounter it as a terran.
Not to think of the mass roach timings that will just kill any terran trying to go for early ravens. As seen in most of the progamer roach hydra play, they just pump out roaches till they have 2-2 upgrades, and therefore delay their hydras
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Very interesting guide, I've been wondering as to how I should try to start using Roach/hydra in ZvT and here's a nice guide, well written, that will allow me to do so. ^^ :D
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