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[G] ZvT Roach Hydra Style by iSHOKZ

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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iSHOKZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany138 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 13:31:41
April 12 2013 10:29 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Video Version




Table of Content

      1.0.......Introduction
      2.0.......Build Order
      3.0.......Execution
                  3.1.......Thought process in general
                  3.2.......How to engage
                  3.3.......When to push, when to transition...
                  3.4.......How to defend drops...
      4.0.......In comparison to Ling Bling Muta
      5.0.......Replays
      6.0.......Feedback & more


Introduction top
    Because of recent incidents: I am not the "shokz-guide" guy. My name is iSHOKZ (like iphone)
    Hello Teamliquid community, my name is iSHOKZ and I am currently a master player on the EU Server with the race random. Since i saw Stephano using the Roach Hydra in WoL, i thought why not use it in HotS, and so far i have great success with it.
    I do also want to mention: No I am not the "shokz" you know from the shokz guides, my name is iSHOKZ, I'm a completely other person and i did not steal that name.

    This build is definitely not perfect, but I think it could also be used in grandmasters play, just with better mechanics and macromanagement then in masters. So overall i would call this build viable in all leagues, depending on your level of skill.

Build Order top
    Since every game plays out differently, I will not give you supply-counts for the buildorder, just the timings on when to build what. These timings can be adapted, depending on how the game progresses. So for example the terran pressured you hard with 2 rax reapers, why not build everything 20 seconds later, the terran needs to transition and you need to get your drone-count back to normal.

    Save Build
    This is the save version of the build. It spawns the first roaches right around a hellion timing of the terran, after a gasless expand. If there are no hellions you can use those roaches to pressure him and even do significant damage vs. a greedy 3CC build.
    Timings:
    Hatch first
    4 Queen Opening
    4:50 2x Gas.
    Start Roachwarren when you have your first 50 Gas.
    Drone until the roachwarren is halfway done, then start 3 overlords
    Roachwarren completes -> Build as many Roaches as you can afford (around 9).
    Follow this up by getting 2 evo-chambers, a 3rd base, a 3rd gas and a lair on the same time.

    More economical build:
    Depending on your confidence to defend, or your play-style you can use this buildorder. It is more reactionary, but also more economical focused. Scouting is much more important in this one, to see when you need to produce units.
    Timings:
    4 Queen Opening
    4:50 2x Gas
    5:00 3rd Base
    6:20 2x Evo Chamber
    6:30 3rd + Lair
    Start Roachwarren when you start +1/+1 Upgrades

Execution top
    General things: Don't get supply-blocked, build drones nonstop and start producing units only when you need them, have a good creep-spread, hit your injects.
    I always get hydra range at first, to out range those widow-mines and also make drop-defense easier.
    Thought process in general top
      In the current ZvT metagame, the terran tends to go for the biomine style, which includes marines, marauder, medivacs and widowmines. In comparison to that, the WoL style used to be Bio-Tank. Those tanks we're the pain to a roach hydra composition, which now got replaced by widowmines. With proper micro hydras out range widow-mines easily, and in fast situations you can even send out a roach in front to tank a shot. Widow-mines don't kill roaches with one shot, but they cost the same, so you come out ahead in a situation like that.
      To help our lack of mobility, we use a 4 queen opening to spread the creep.
      Biomine play tends to be aggressive, and thats the exact thing we want to face with roach-hydra composition, since we just want to trade consistently. The bigger the biomine army is, and the more medivacs he has, the exponentially stronger it gets vs. roach-hydra.
      Get overlord-speed to increase the speed of the overseers. This will help you to deal with widowmines.
      If you are very new to this build you can get trouble with managing your resources, since you don't have units that cost only minerals. If you lack on the gas, you can't produce any units. But with more practice you get a feeling for when to take new gas geysers and so on.
      In the next chapters I will explain you how to engage with roach hydra. How, when and why to transition. How to defend drops and how to react in certain situations.

    How to engage top
      In general
      In general we want to get a complete surround at the terran army, so we have a higher surface area. Furthermore it denies that the medivacs can retreat after the fight. When the medivac numbers are low, roach hydra gets unstoppable. The roaches need to stay in the front, while the DPS unit called the hydralisk will deal all the damage from the back.
      An engagement can look something like this. Note how I attack him mainly from the back, so he can't retreat. My reinforcements will join the fight in the front.
      + Show Spoiler +
      [image loading]

      vs widowmines
      In the mid-game you should always have the time to out range the mines with the hydra range. As the game progresses, the mine counts get higher. If you want to engage the terran, you can just move-command a roach over the widow-mines to tank the damage. One roach tanks two shots.
      vs. tanks
      Only engage vs. tanks without vipers if you are very sure you can beat the army. Tanks on the high ground get extremely cost-efficient and should be nullified with blinding cloud in the later stages of a game.
      vs. turtle terrans
      This is the hardest counter to this build, a terran that does not attack. You want to trade consistently, since the terran army gets stronger over time. But if the terran turtles like crazy there is no way for you to trade cost-efficient.
      You need to read this perfectly and react by delaying your units, teching earlier and droning heavier. Use some roach forces to break into his natural in case he turtles at his third, while getting out the vipers and also infestors in addition to your roach hydra. Then you can blinding-cloud or abduct potential tanks, or just demolish a biomine based army.
      vs mech:
      You're army composition vs. mech does not need to involve hydras since they are very fragile vs. tanks, widowmines and hellbats. Don't try to engage into sieged tank-lines before you have vipers out. Just keep the terran busy bye doing runbyes with roachforces while you tech fast. If he tries to commit you can always go for a basetrade, while getting out vipers. There is no reason for you to leave most parts of your army at home. Just rally them somewhere hidden around his base, wait for him to leave it and then go in to delay his push, kill off any reinforcements, kill of economy and then you will be able to defend his push later on while sacrificing a base (most likley).
      Once you have the vipers out, blinding-cloud the mech army, or even abduct units that are to far on the front. By slowly trading energy vs. units you will be able to win. As the game progresses you can transition into Ultralisks, Nydusplay to harass left and right, or also viper swarmhosts.

    When to push, when to transition top
      There are many different situations when you should push out. In general:
      When you are at about 160-200 supply
      When you killed of medivacs
      When there was no early aggression, you are fully saturated and can pump out roach hydra afterwards. Just push consistently and trade.
      Transition:
      While doing your almost maxxed out push, you should start the hive, get some more drones (because you might not have enough after adding static defense), start more bases, gas geysers, infestor energy upgrade and then the first infestors.
      Its a personal preference if you get vipers first, or infestors first. Versus tanks or a low economy game, I recommend vipers. The smaller a bio army, the more effective the vipers get. In games where the terran eco is not crippled, you need to get infestors first because of the overwhelming amounts of bio-forces he will get out.
      Once you have (roach) hydra infestor viper the battles will look like this:
      + Show Spoiler +
      [image loading]

      Terran can't move, terran can't attack.

    How to defend drops top
      Because our army is not that mobile, we need to make some sacrifices to be able and deal with terran drops.
      In the early-mid game, its enough to just have 3 roaches and 1-2 hydraslisks at a base where you expect drops. This will easily defend any kind of single drop. If its a drop with more medivacs, those units will buy you enough time to come back with your army. Most of the time you will see a drop on the minimap and can start roach-production immediately. These roaches will spawn around the time the drop cleared up your anti-drop defense.
      In the mid-late game, just add 1 spore and 2 spines on each vulnerable base. Spread your overlords with your overlord speed upgrade and use the creepspread to help reinforce your bases vs. drops, but also to spot drops.
      When you are about to hit a strong timing, you can take all your units (including the ones that should defend the drops) and rely on your reinforcements to deal with incoming drops.
      If your drop-defense is flawless, you should be able to kill of many dropships with your hydralisks. After that you have such a strong timing window that you will most likely win the game by pushing.
      A solid defended base can look like this. Look at the minimap, overlords tell us when drops are coming in to prepare in case its a multiple drop.
      + Show Spoiler +
      [image loading]

      If you add static defenses, replace the drones instantly with new ones.

      As a very special map, bel shir vestige allows us to spot almost all drops, just by spreading creep.
      + Show Spoiler +
      [image loading]


In comparison to Ling Bling Muta Style top
    The most favored style in the zvt match up right now is the Ling Baneling Muta style. There is no korean in the proleague or gsl that has been using roach-hydra vs. terran. So lets compare both play-styles and find out their strengths and their weaknesses and also why koreans tend towards the ling bling muta style.

    mobility: lings are way faster than roach hydra, and the mutas can fly
    -> ling bling muta is more mobile
    army strenght: This point is very hard to tell, without statistics. This also depends on the gamestage. In my opinion roach hydra is way stronger then ling baneling muta in certain situations like low medivac counts, low armysupply counts. Furthermore the new hydra speed and their high dps makes it less likely for medivacs to boost out of the fight.
    -> This depends on the situation, but in my opinion Roach Hydra is stronger in most of the situations (maybe we should make some statistic about this, how a roach hydra composition deals with a marine marauder medivac army in regards to their supply. Out of my experience i would say roach hydra is the strongest when the terran is below 130 supply.)
    micro / multitasking The ling baneling muta composition tends to clump up and can't outrange widowmines. Because of this you need sick micro to not get some huge mines-hits off. Furthermore you need to work with 3 different units which need to be controlled differently. Roach Hydra armys are well controlled by using just one hotkey.
    -> Ling Bling Muta needs more micro and multitasking to be efficient.

    Conclusion: Ling Bling Muta has more mobility, but needs more micro and multitasking. But do we really need the mobility if we are no koreans with way to much apm? I am not capable of having that multitasking and micro and will most likley lose a game with ling baneling muta in any fast pasted situation where the widow-mines destroy my army totally.
    In comparison to that, roach hydra is a bit like mech as a terran. You don't need to have sick multitasking, even though you have room to use it in certain situations, you simply don't need to have it. Positioning and macro matters more here.
    The weakness of the mobility will be compensated by adapting our defense, as mentioned in the section execution.

Replays top
    http://sc2bc.com/r/3075 - Lategame Eco Opening
    + Show Spoiler +
    In this game I use the economic opening. Because I played really bad, and did not push at the right times, neither realised the opponent was 3 base, i could not finish him as I should have. That's why the game carries over into the late-game. My Late-game just sucks and i lose. -> This replay shows, good players would have won 3 times, I didn't, I am bad.

    http://sc2bc.com/r/3074 - Engage, defend, push , win
    + Show Spoiler +
    In this game I go for the saver build. I scout whats going on, defend very well, force him to make mistakes while he plays aggressive, punishes it and just a click him.
    This game is also available as a VoD by guest casters on influencetv. Remember they both casted for the first time in english (not their main language). So the cast is not representative for influencetv casting
    -> VoD Link: http://de.twitch.tv/influencetv/b/387874917?t=66m

    http://sc2bc.com/r/3076 - Showing the strength of low eco
    + Show Spoiler +
    I use the save build here once again. My macro was pretty bad, and it was one of the first times i figured this build out. But in the end my opponent wasn't good either (masters vs. masters) and he had to much supply wasted in useless drops while i push and snowball his army dead.

    http://sc2bc.com/r/3077 - vs. Mech
    + Show Spoiler +
    He plays mech, i just go for run-byes and attack when he is out of position (pushing) and then trade him dead through better economy

    http://sc2bc.com/r/3078 - First testing, into failing, into infestor viper win
    + Show Spoiler +
    This was one of the first game when i created this buildorder. I was not to sure about when i have push timings and how to engage (never engage into planetarys). You can see I am way ahead and would have won by just pushing into the natural. But my knowledge was not there at the point, so i almost threw the game away. Infestor Viper saves the day.

    http://sc2bc.com/r/3079 - Another game vs. mech
    + Show Spoiler +
    I was caught off guard by 2 banshees, but the hydra timing is very good against something like that. After that i just expanded while producing roaches. By counterattacking i was able to overwhelm his push in the end.

Feedback & more top
    I really hope you liked the guide, whether the video or the text version. I would appreciate any form of feedback and criticism. Have you tested the build yet and did it work out for you? You have some adaptions to make it better? You think this build is bad, tell me why?

    Furthermore I would love to see you as a part of the inFluenceTV community
    B.net Community Channel (EU) "inFluenceTV" - Ask questions and chat with us !
    Our twitch.tv Caster Channel, twitch.tv/influencetv - We provide high level sc2 casting


    Good luck with the build,
    iSHOKZ


    More iSHotS ; HotS with iSHOKZ Guides
    + Show Spoiler +
    [G] TvZ 3CC into mech
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
April 12 2013 10:51 GMT
#2
Great guide.
One question: do you stay on roach, hydra, viper, infestor
no matter how long the game goes, or would you recommend
a ultra transition?
TL+ Member
FlakRenew
Profile Joined August 2012
Germany4 Posts
April 12 2013 15:31 GMT
#3
Nice Guide!
I think this will help many people.

Thx
iSHOKZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany138 Posts
April 12 2013 17:01 GMT
#4
On April 12 2013 19:51 Paljas wrote:
Great guide.
One question: do you stay on roach, hydra, viper, infestor
no matter how long the game goes, or would you recommend
a ultra transition?


Hi,
this really depends on the progress of the game. On some maps you can go up to 7 bases, for example on newkirk. Than its no big deal to get your meele upgrades and you can do some really heavy techswitches.
If your not thin on gas you can also add banelings with speed into the blindingcloud + fungal combination.

But if you did not bank up any gas, an ultralisk transition is just to expensive.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
April 12 2013 21:20 GMT
#5
thanks for the answer. this guide needs more love.
TL+ Member
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
April 12 2013 21:46 GMT
#6
Reading through this, just stating first thing that comes to mind; roach/hydra isn't bad vs mech. Hydras actually die to the same amount of tank shots as roaches do, so that point is completely invalid. Add in some hydras and you'll faceroll his army. Even better, include swarmhosts and you've got yourself a great composition. In the late game, replace roaches with ultras, so you'll end up with SH/hydra/ultra/viper.
HeyJude
Profile Joined July 2010
United States157 Posts
April 12 2013 23:58 GMT
#7
as a high diamond random player roach/hydra is my usual build, but I really think upgrades are key to this. I think roach/hydra is much easier to play than ling/bling/muta, but you also have to be more careful with your engagements since you don't have the same mobility.
Krayze
Profile Joined May 2009
United States213 Posts
April 13 2013 00:19 GMT
#8
I have actually seen Stephano using Roach/Hydra(/viper/infestor) vs Terran in HotS and it works well. The thing I love about roach/hydra is how much easier it is than ling/bling/muta. Thank you for this writeup, I will be taking this advice and trying it out for myself!
smN
Profile Joined June 2011
22 Posts
April 14 2013 15:11 GMT
#9
thanks for the guide, very nice work
One mind, one heartbeat.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
April 14 2013 15:56 GMT
#10
I've been playing around with this style too, and it's definitely one of my favourites. I generally go for the 4-queen expand into about 4-5 roaches to deflect hellions, then just get 3 bases saturated as fast as possible and max out on roach/hydra. Sadly, terrans have generally stopped going hellion/banshee, which this build absolutely facerolls. Overall, roach/hydra is fun and feels like a new way to play zerg entirely. Also, great guide; short, to the point, and informative.


On April 13 2013 06:46 Henk wrote:
Reading through this, just stating first thing that comes to mind; roach/hydra isn't bad vs mech. Hydras actually die to the same amount of tank shots as roaches do, so that point is completely invalid. Add in some hydras and you'll faceroll his army. Even better, include swarmhosts and you've got yourself a great composition. In the late game, replace roaches with ultras, so you'll end up with SH/hydra/ultra/viper.


Against mech, I just substitute swarm hosts for roaches (since they have about the same "relative cost" (same mineral/gas/supply ratio)). At 16+ swarm hosts and good burrow/unburrow micro, you can wear down a mech army before it gets across the map. If you identify mech early enough, you can easily skip roaches altogether and just go straight into swarm host production. I also like to add in queens as the game goes on for a hydra/queen/SH/viper army.

Biggest issue I have with roach/hydra is dealing with reaper harass followed by hellion harass followed by a really early bio-mine push at around 10:00 with stim. At that point, I feel like I don't have enough economy to produce enough roach/hydra (in equal numbers, roach/hydra seems to trade about evenly with bio).
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
snexwang
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia224 Posts
April 14 2013 17:56 GMT
#11
I really like roach/hydra in ZvT but I feel like the terrans I've been facing don't exploit the shit out of it enough with medivacs forever. Thus, I really haven't had the opportunity to gauge just how much static defense I would actually need in a "lol imma gunna drop for like 30mins glhf" situation.

At least now I can use your guide and your replays as a helpful basis. Cheers!
iSHOKZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany138 Posts
April 15 2013 17:43 GMT
#12
On April 15 2013 00:56 SC2John wrote:
...

Biggest issue I have with roach/hydra is dealing with reaper harass followed by hellion harass followed by a really early bio-mine push at around 10:00 with stim. At that point, I feel like I don't have enough economy to produce enough roach/hydra (in equal numbers, roach/hydra seems to trade about evenly with bio).


Hi SC2John,
i had the same problem with the "economic" build, whereas the saver one has no problem with the early aggression.
The only strong stim timings are those where the terran is on 2 base, without a 3rd oc backing it up. If you identify that, you can cancel the hydra upgrades, the overlord-speed and just get as many units as you can. You should be able to overwhelm the push then, get the upgrades behind it and also drone afterwards. Since terran was only on 2CC you can play on a lower economy in that scenario.


Also to the counter of mech:
Yes, swarmhosts are even better than roaches, thats true !
smN
Profile Joined June 2011
22 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 13:22:32
April 17 2013 13:21 GMT
#13
I don't always play zerg. But when I do, I own hard with roach-hydra iSHOKZ-style.
One mind, one heartbeat.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
April 17 2013 14:30 GMT
#14
On April 16 2013 02:43 iSHOKZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2013 00:56 SC2John wrote:
...

Biggest issue I have with roach/hydra is dealing with reaper harass followed by hellion harass followed by a really early bio-mine push at around 10:00 with stim. At that point, I feel like I don't have enough economy to produce enough roach/hydra (in equal numbers, roach/hydra seems to trade about evenly with bio).


Hi SC2John,
i had the same problem with the "economic" build, whereas the saver one has no problem with the early aggression.
The only strong stim timings are those where the terran is on 2 base, without a 3rd oc backing it up. If you identify that, you can cancel the hydra upgrades, the overlord-speed and just get as many units as you can. You should be able to overwhelm the push then, get the upgrades behind it and also drone afterwards. Since terran was only on 2CC you can play on a lower economy in that scenario.


Also to the counter of mech:
Yes, swarmhosts are even better than roaches, thats true !


Thanks for the advice!

Just as a sidenote playing with this build some: when playing the economic style, I've had a lot of success going up to 4-6 queens for defense. Having that many high energy queens can help kill off an early stim push with only few roaches realtively easily. It also helps you prepare for the later parts of the game if you go into swarm hosts/ultras/blords. It also helps me continually spread creep and keep terran fairly pinned back.

Question: I have a bit of a problem getting the exact hydra/roach ratio correct. What kind of ratio do you normally get? In a maxed army situation, I feel like there's not much of a need to get above 16-20 hydras (even with swarm hosts). Any more than that feels like overkill.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
ArhK
Profile Joined July 2007
France287 Posts
April 17 2013 15:21 GMT
#15
Thanks for the guide !

You don't seem to use Swarm Host at all (I didn't see the replays yet, just based on my reading of your guide), is there any reason for that ?

I am only a low master player, but I feel that when I face turtly terrans, it helps à lot to siege them on their third, and try to do some runbyes on their main (via simply runnning in with a couple of roaches, to getting drop and harassing them mid-late game.
DnameIN
Profile Joined July 2010
Poland146 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 17:16:33
April 17 2013 17:13 GMT
#16
Hey,

I am going to try this build today. I am just wondering, how do you respond to 1-2 vikings that can easily shut down your overlord vision for scouting incoming drops. In that case, I don't see how zerg can push forward with slow rouch/hydra without overcompensating with static defense of leaving some units "just for safety" and making push a lot weaker. Or is it just me and terrans will not do that for some reason? (because I am tempted to think that they don't do this only because they are suprised that there is no muta on the field)
abefroman
Profile Joined December 2010
70 Posts
April 17 2013 17:44 GMT
#17
As far as hydra roach ratio....start at 50/50. If they go marauder heavy, sub out some roaches for more hydras and use any spare mins on some lings. Lings will be un upgraded, but still seem to help vs very marauder heavy armies.
iSHOKZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany138 Posts
April 18 2013 16:41 GMT
#18
On April 18 2013 00:21 ArhK wrote:
Thanks for the guide !

You don't seem to use Swarm Host at all (I didn't see the replays yet, just based on my reading of your guide), is there any reason for that ?

I am only a low master player, but I feel that when I face turtly terrans, it helps à lot to siege them on their third, and try to do some runbyes on their main (via simply runnning in with a couple of roaches, to getting drop and harassing them mid-late game.


Hi,
i only recommend using swarm hosts vs. mech. But while writing the guide i was not very familiar with the use of swarmhosts, so I even went for roaches as a mech counter, which can work if the terran does not play at the highest level. But to be honest swarmhosts are way better vs. mech now that I have more experience.
Vs. just a "turtle terran" with biomine or biotank, you can go for the normal roach hydra composition with faster teching. Swarmhost play will just slow your techpath down. Roach Hydra Infestor Viper is basically unbeatable. There is no reason to delay that transition.

On April 18 2013 02:13 DnameIN wrote:
Hey,

I am going to try this build today. I am just wondering, how do you respond to 1-2 vikings that can easily shut down your overlord vision for scouting incoming drops. In that case, I don't see how zerg can push forward with slow rouch/hydra without overcompensating with static defense of leaving some units "just for safety" and making push a lot weaker. Or is it just me and terrans will not do that for some reason? (because I am tempted to think that they don't do this only because they are suprised that there is no muta on the field)


I would not even call it bad for you, if the terran attempts to do a bigger drop than 2 medivacs. In that case you should normally be able to just run him over because your army is so much stronger than his when he has 2 full medivacs dropping. Otherwise its the same thing as in WoL with ling infestor, you just have to accept that he did shut down your overlords and maybe wait till he wastes them.

On April 17 2013 23:30 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2013 02:43 iSHOKZ wrote:
On April 15 2013 00:56 SC2John wrote:
...

Biggest issue I have with roach/hydra is dealing with reaper harass followed by hellion harass followed by a really early bio-mine push at around 10:00 with stim. At that point, I feel like I don't have enough economy to produce enough roach/hydra (in equal numbers, roach/hydra seems to trade about evenly with bio).


Hi SC2John,
i had the same problem with the "economic" build, whereas the saver one has no problem with the early aggression.
The only strong stim timings are those where the terran is on 2 base, without a 3rd oc backing it up. If you identify that, you can cancel the hydra upgrades, the overlord-speed and just get as many units as you can. You should be able to overwhelm the push then, get the upgrades behind it and also drone afterwards. Since terran was only on 2CC you can play on a lower economy in that scenario.


Also to the counter of mech:
Yes, swarmhosts are even better than roaches, thats true !


...

Question: I have a bit of a problem getting the exact hydra/roach ratio correct. What kind of ratio do you normally get? In a maxed army situation, I feel like there's not much of a need to get above 16-20 hydras (even with swarm hosts). Any more than that feels like overkill.


If you have the ultimate infestor viper composition, pure hydra is even better then roach hydra.
Otherwise there is no real ratio you need to have, it depends to much on your position and on the opponents composition, so that a 50/50 ratio should be the best one.
DaemonX
Profile Joined September 2010
545 Posts
April 20 2013 16:23 GMT
#19
Hi iShockz. I have an issue with this style, in that terrans go reactor hellion before CC, they can have 4 hellions in my base before 6:30, before my roaches are out. 4 hellions can get a crazy number of drone kills without any speedlings or spines to shut them down...I lost 2 games to that today and am wondering what the answer is.

Terran isn't terribly behind as the factor-first doesn't seem to delay him too much since his gas doesn't have to be super early (13 after rax is fine).
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
April 20 2013 18:22 GMT
#20
On April 21 2013 01:23 DaemonX wrote:
Hi iShockz. I have an issue with this style, in that terrans go reactor hellion before CC, they can have 4 hellions in my base before 6:30, before my roaches are out. 4 hellions can get a crazy number of drone kills without any speedlings or spines to shut them down...I lost 2 games to that today and am wondering what the answer is.

Terran isn't terribly behind as the factor-first doesn't seem to delay him too much since his gas doesn't have to be super early (13 after rax is fine).


This is really an old problem come back in a new way. Back in the day when all terrans were opening reactor hellion before expanding, zergs would just get either 1) fast zergling speed with a flood of lings at 6:30 to get a surround and shut down the hellion harass or 2) 4-6 queens and a spine crawler with a partial or complete walloff at the natural.

You should know something is up if your opponent's natural isn't down by 6:00. This can generally mean a few things: 1) fast hellions, late expand, 2) some kind of widow mine shenanigans, 3) some kind of all-in. Having extra queens will help in all of these cases and 2 spore crawlers will save you from any kind of widow mine drop.

Probably the best response is to go up to 6 queens before taking a 3rd if you haven't scouted your opponent's natural expansion by 6:00. In addition, you need to scout whether or not widow mines are incoming; one of the ways to do this is to just have lings spotting the front of his base for hellions. No hellions, no expansion by 6:00, spore up. If it's some kind of all-in, you can generally stall with your queens and spine crawlers until you can afford roaches.

Hope this helps some!
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
iSHOKZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany138 Posts
April 24 2013 08:24 GMT
#21
On April 21 2013 01:23 DaemonX wrote:
Hi iShockz. I have an issue with this style, in that terrans go reactor hellion before CC, they can have 4 hellions in my base before 6:30, before my roaches are out. 4 hellions can get a crazy number of drone kills without any speedlings or spines to shut them down...I lost 2 games to that today and am wondering what the answer is.

Terran isn't terribly behind as the factor-first doesn't seem to delay him too much since his gas doesn't have to be super early (13 after rax is fine).


The 4 Queen opening shuts down any reactor helion play.
You simply scout his opening by seeing no early lowground expansion with your overlord and start to wall off with your roachwarren and evochambers. The hellions won't get any drone kills because you stay on 2 bases with the save style relativley long and then push out with your roaches while getting the 3rd.

The reactor hellion expand terran will most likley not be able to defend the first roach push without taking to much damage. Overall thats a really bad opening vs. this roach style for the terran, and you are far ahead.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
April 24 2013 09:02 GMT
#22
roach hydra is a pretty futile style. It simply can't compete with MMM. Marine/marauder is just more effective and even more mobile to boot with medivac support. Mines are a bit crap against this style though with roaches being able to soak them fairly well, if terran reverts to the class MMM + tanks you are just at a disadvantage.
Hydra's are still a fairly crappy unit just because they have gotten a speed boost (at a hefty research price) doesn't suddenly turn them into great units. Their dps/hp ratio is still the smae as stalkers, pretty lousy. Roach buffer makes them use that dps relatively well but roaches are a terrible buffer against marauders.

Complimenting that roach/hydra transitions lousy into ultra which are really great now. Dropping drops is still a hassle with this build.
To be honest though no style is good against MMMM now, ling/bling/muta and roach/hydra are both underpowered as terran is just slightly overpowered in the matchup at the moment. ling/bling/muta is just the best option though
zJayy962
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1363 Posts
April 24 2013 19:15 GMT
#23
On April 24 2013 18:02 Markwerf wrote:
roach hydra is a pretty futile style. It simply can't compete with MMM. Marine/marauder is just more effective and even more mobile to boot with medivac support. Mines are a bit crap against this style though with roaches being able to soak them fairly well, if terran reverts to the class MMM + tanks you are just at a disadvantage.
Hydra's are still a fairly crappy unit just because they have gotten a speed boost (at a hefty research price) doesn't suddenly turn them into great units. Their dps/hp ratio is still the smae as stalkers, pretty lousy. Roach buffer makes them use that dps relatively well but roaches are a terrible buffer against marauders.

Complimenting that roach/hydra transitions lousy into ultra which are really great now. Dropping drops is still a hassle with this build.
To be honest though no style is good against MMMM now, ling/bling/muta and roach/hydra are both underpowered as terran is just slightly overpowered in the matchup at the moment. ling/bling/muta is just the best option though


In small numbers roach hydra do very well vs mmm. In large numbers you need infestors and vipers. More and more pros are going this style and figuring out the kinks. I wouldn't say its futile. It feels weak because you are fighting an uphill battle until late game when your hive units come out but its very good once your hive units come out and you start getting more cost effective.
d07.RiV
Profile Joined March 2013
Russian Federation50 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-25 09:31:49
April 25 2013 09:30 GMT
#24
Actually, transitioning out of roaches into SH works vs both mech and bio. You will have to be heavier on infestors in this case, but it allows for very cost effective trades which is exactly the counter to bio play.
Drops in this case are only an issue while you're halfway through the transition. Once your SH count is large enough, you should start floating minerals and can get tons of static defense, and every drop means the locusts can push further (also, you should be able to afford to keep an infestor or two at home, catching a doom drop in a field of spores instantly ends the game).
Orcspit
Profile Joined December 2010
United States20 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-25 16:05:40
April 25 2013 16:02 GMT
#25
I have been using Roach / Hydra a lot, and have been doing fairly well at high diamond.

Once I get 3 bases fully saturated I like to poke with My army to see if I can deny his third. While I poke I throw down a fourth and start feeding Infestors in to the mix.

If the Terran stays on Bio I will add in Ultralisks, even with no melee upgrades 5/0 Ultras can tank a ton of damage while Roaches/Hydras clean up the rest of the army.

If Terran switches to Bio/Tank I will add in about 10 Swarm Hosts to keep him sieged up while I expand as much as possible and tech to Broodlords.

The army comp is pretty terrible against mass drops, but you end up with a huge bank of minerals since gas is almost always the limiting factor. Its usually a good idea to throw 4 spines and 2 spores down at every base (even your main).

Edit: vs. Bio Tank you can not keep your swarm hosts stationary, you need to spawn locusts and then shift positions and kite away if he stims and kills them all. If you don't you might lose all your swarmhosts. Killing all 10 marines or so is a good trade for all your locusts, and you will slowly thin his bio unless he camps by his tanks.
ZedraC
Profile Joined February 2011
South Africa109 Posts
April 25 2013 20:17 GMT
#26
Thanks for guide, but why does the replays not work. Am i being an idiot again??
"What am I supposed to build to kill the things that look like giant dung beetles that eventually show up?" - beginner on battlenet forums. LMAO
iSHOKZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany138 Posts
April 27 2013 10:47 GMT
#27
On April 26 2013 05:17 ZedraC wrote:
Thanks for guide, but why does the replays not work. Am i being an idiot again??


The replays are working,
just the replaysite is not displaying it right, eitherway you just have to click on download, then paste the replayfile into your replayfolder in sc2 and launch it via starcraft.

Drop.sc was offline during i uploaded the replays thats why i used an other hoster.
NovemberstOrm
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada16217 Posts
April 28 2013 13:39 GMT
#28
Roach Hydra is a really good composition right now, I used to go muta ling vs T in WOL but I never used it vs T in Hots for far due to how well Roach Hydra works for me.
Good guide! Thanks for this so other players can use this style.
Moderatorlickypiddy
wUndertUnge
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1125 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-29 19:57:17
April 29 2013 18:30 GMT
#29
I must be the only person who thinks this is harder than muta-ling-bling. Then again, it's my go-to build. Also, I don't quite know when I can and can't be aggressive with roach-hydra. Not my usual style, so it's tough.

Still, I think it's good to have in my arsenal of builds.

EdIT: So I have been working on this build, but I never seem to have enough gas. Ling/Bling muta feels much more flexible in that if I don't have gas, I can just spam lings. Anyone else having this problem? Or is it that I can't be wasting as much of my fighting units in this composition? I'll post a replay or two when I get home./
Clan: QQGC - wundertunge#1850
TL+ Member
HypaSnipa
Profile Joined June 2010
64 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-29 18:53:56
April 29 2013 18:52 GMT
#30
I came out of WoL using only Muta/ling/bling, and have gotten really sufficient with the control and apm required to manage such an army. But even with excellent control you are still very vulnerable to widow mines killing everything. Since HotS release I have been using almost pure roach/hydra into viper and I must say it is excellent against both biomine and mech.

This guide is really spot on, and the combination between viper/infestor is something that should be noted, because it allows roach/hydra to continue to be viable into late game. If the terran opponent goes into heavy tank/widow mine production, then you will be looking to transition into ultralisk/hydra/viper. But the core composition of this build can handle most terran compositions without needing to transition. You are always free to drop a spire and make a flock of mutalisks if it seems the drops will not stop.

I have had great success with this build, and having it written down in a concise and easily mimicked format is great, thanks ishokz.

One quick note that should be re-iterated is that, unless your Roach/Hydra army looks similar in size to the terrans bio, DO NOT ENGAGE. If you begin to trade inefficiently you will quickly fall behind and may be hard pressed to find a solution for getting back into the game.
Genome852
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States979 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-02 08:49:56
April 29 2013 22:53 GMT
#31
Against this, as terran I start mmm without mines and slowly get a fleet of ravens with the excess gas, which basically becomes a wasted resource if unused when you have 0 minerals and 2k+ gas. PDD reduces hydra dps to zero and seeker missile = flying roach / hydra corpses (hard to outrun 13 range when it's deployed right on top of you, which it can be because of pdd blocking hydra shots).

edit: using this guide for roach / hydra as Z (offrace), really liking it. In a lot of engagements vs bio that I think I have no way of winning, I somehow end up killing everything and still have many units left over...stats-wise you'd think hydras would be totally useless against any marine based army but they are so strong somehow..
iSHOKZ
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany138 Posts
June 05 2013 15:49 GMT
#32
On April 30 2013 07:53 Genome852 wrote:
Against this, as terran I start mmm without mines and slowly get a fleet of ravens with the excess gas, which basically becomes a wasted resource if unused when you have 0 minerals and 2k+ gas. PDD reduces hydra dps to zero and seeker missile = flying roach / hydra corpses (hard to outrun 13 range when it's deployed right on top of you, which it can be because of pdd blocking hydra shots).

edit: using this guide for roach / hydra as Z (offrace), really liking it. In a lot of engagements vs bio that I think I have no way of winning, I somehow end up killing everything and still have many units left over...stats-wise you'd think hydras would be totally useless against any marine based army but they are so strong somehow..


If your transitioning into ravens, you should be already maxxed, otherwise your medivac-count is so low that you just get overran.
And if you are maxxed roach hydra will also transition. So i think thats not the right way to encounter it as a terran.
Not to think of the mass roach timings that will just kill any terran trying to go for early ravens. As seen in most of the progamer roach hydra play, they just pump out roaches till they have 2-2 upgrades, and therefore delay their hydras
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
June 05 2013 21:03 GMT
#33
Very interesting guide, I've been wondering as to how I should try to start using Roach/hydra in ZvT and here's a nice guide, well written, that will allow me to do so. ^^ :D
maru lover forever
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