EPTPS: I love your work. This is amazing, and I am VERY good at getting used to new keys. It's like learning to play a new piece of music, on say guitar. And I really like the location perk, its one of the main reasons I like this, and as well as having an easier time selecting Stargate, forge, robo.
[G] Fleet Keys - Refined Hotkey Systems - Page 3
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crappen
Norway1546 Posts
PS: I love your work. This is amazing, and I am VERY good at getting used to new keys. It's like learning to play a new piece of music, on say guitar. And I really like the location perk, its one of the main reasons I like this, and as well as having an easier time selecting Stargate, forge, robo. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
I can already tell that grid is superior, far simplier, I ended up switching the T key to A, and the W key to S, so that Attack and Stop are back where they were in default. Learning the new production keys isnt any harder with that change, and attack moving remains feeling natural. Of course the keys aren't as nicely aligned with their placement in the UI anymore, but your trying to turn it into muscle memory anyway, so its irrevelvent. This looks cool though, I am going to try it. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On March 25 2013 22:49 KuBa wrote: Just out of curiosity, could you list maybe some advantages your layout has over TheCore or Chameleon? I have changed to TheCore as soon as it was released for the first time and I am really happy with it, however, it would be interesting to see why someone could prefer your layout. Especially for my friends who started to play SC2 with the standard layouts just a couple of months ago. I'd say the main thing Fleet Keys has over TheCore is that it keeps your keyboard hand where you're used to having it, so it's a bit easier to learn in that regard. | ||
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
Previous hotkeys 1°) My 1A army 2°)Harrassment army 3°)Spellcaster 4°)Queens 5°)Hatcheries 6°)EvoChambers/Spires I was never ever using Camera Location hotkeys. Changes I made to Fleet Keys I only made one little change to Fleet Keys : 1°)Change the Base Camera from Spacebar to Mouse 4 Impressions after a few games 1°) The hardest habit is to press Tab rather than 5 to build stuff. Since I used my index to press 5, I now have to use my ring finger, which can be quite distracting. 2°) The inject method, using Alt to select the Queens, got me in trouble several times, when I was franticly trying to inject using 4, but everything is smoother now that I'm used to it. 3°) The biggest change is that I'm now able to smoothly record Camera Locations and ping back to those places. What I'm using it for is mainly creep tumor and defend harassment/drops, do you see other ways I could use those? | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On March 25 2013 18:05 Serz wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I find one issue with alt bound to warpins AND being used as a modifier for map keys. While it is great to use for quick snap reaction warp ins, it seems to make pulling probes off the mineral line to another base a big issue, as it deselects the probes to go to a new map location. For instance, using other layouts I may see danger in my main (drop), hit map hotkey 1 to view my main, ctrl click/ box probes to select as many as I can in one action, hit map hotkey 2, and immediately click to send my probes scurrying for safety. However using your method, one would box the probes...hit the map hotkeys... and bam selecting warpgates, probes still in base getting destroyed by whatever harrass/attack you are trying to avoid. Is there anyway to incorporate both advantages? Otherwise I would be totally sold for this layout. Response: You may not like the answer to this, but Caps Lock is in line with the first 4 Camera Locations so you're able to to do this: select workers>Caps Lock>Right Click on patch/anywhere. When you press Caps Lock, be happy in knowing it always has that auto-center feature which makes quickly clicking on your mineral patches way easier. This is still pretty fast, and it's a smooth action, it just isn't immediately intuitive and obvious, which makes me kind of sad. You can always click the Minimap and do it manually, but I feel bad even suggesting that. Caps Lock (Next Base) was put there for that very reason. I found that the ready Warp-in advantage did a lot for a player. With Warp-in bound to Alt, you should be gradually trained to hotkey things of importance, such as armies, and small groups of units like spellcasters/harassers so you can recall them quickly after a fast Warp-in reinforcement. Some times it's nice to just be able to tap through your bases with Caps Lock, but in this situation, it's encouraged to use it as your escape plan with workers. Yes, Caps Lock for Next Base>Right Click is not what you'd expect for a solution from this layout, but it's the best I could do (atm) for situations like that. Zerg will have a similar issue, but Space Bar is a bit easier to press in that regard. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On March 25 2013 23:09 nottapro wrote: I just switched over to GRID, not the Fleet keys but I am going through the awkward transition stage. I can already tell that grid is superior, far simplier, I ended up switching the T key to A, and the W key to S, so that Attack and Stop are back where they were in default. Learning the new production keys isnt any harder with that change, and attack moving remains feeling natural. Of course the keys aren't as nicely aligned with their placement in the UI anymore, but your trying to turn it into muscle memory anyway, so its irrevelvent. This looks cool though, I am going to try it. Having attack on T is a bit of a pain I'll admit. I have been trying to find ways around it in the form of a alternate binding, but my plan has blown up in the sense that you can't combine Alt with your Left Click (this would be a brilliant binding, stupid efficient, but the game won't accept it). Breaking up the Grid by putting T on A or E, W, or anywhere else that displaces Grid's formation is something I'm avoiding like the plague. The game denied my simple solution, and that's discouraging given its simple implementation and the fact that it's totally bereft of consequences. Imagine that, Alt+Left Click = A-move. Total bonkers. The only headway I made in that regard is I managed to go into Left Click's settings, and bind T to it, so that when you press T, you can double-tap T to assign A-move commands, or hold in T to lead an army forward on A-move through repeated A-move commands based on your keyboard's repeat rate/delay. It's pretty neat to see! Not sure if it holds any dire consequences or provides significant advantages, so I'm not directly encouraging it, but again, it does feel pretty damn cool... | ||
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Ruin
United States271 Posts
On March 25 2013 08:55 Rankith wrote: keep at it. It will be hard but worth it in the end. Try some games against AI, or play unranked. Also, search Hotkey Trainer in arcade and use that. Switching your hotkeys is a waste of time. All that matters is what you are comfortable with. Most pros use the standard hotkey layout and some pros from broodwar even switched sc2 hotkeys like marine to m. These hotkey layouts might be good for people just starting out but for others they are a complete waste of time and will not improve your play. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
Tip: Instead of having warp-in bound to Alt, assign a specific combination, such as Alt + key, for warp-in. For example, if Alt+C is a camera location, you might have Alt+X as warp-in. This way, two fingers on C and X, while holding Alt will activate both the camera location, and the warp-in together. It also protects your unit selection when you select camera locations by themselves, because you're not activating the warp-in when you don't want to. Alternatively, you could choose an easier key to use in combination with your camera locations, such as Alt+F for your warp-in, this would make it easier to use in combination with more than one camera location, expanding the usability. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On March 25 2013 23:38 JDub wrote: I'd say the main thing Fleet Keys has over TheCore is that it keeps your keyboard hand where you're used to having it, so it's a bit easier to learn in that regard. I'd say the things that stand to me is what you said, and a couple other things. Fleet Keys puts some of the "don't press too many keys that are far apart" theory into action as far as basic macro and other actions are concerned, but TheCore and Chameleon try to do this almost always, which cuts down on a lot jump jumping around on the keyboard. Despite the unorthodox approach to control, it achieves its goals for efficiency and ergonomics. Fleet Keys stays (relatively) close to familiarity while maximizing as many flowing actions as possible, coupled with simple arrangement. TheCore and Chameleon (I'm pretty sure Chameleon does) play off of mostly statistical data to arrange their keys in a "most-used" fashion, in other words-- prioritized key placement. It may not be comfortable in a learning sense, since people tend to want to play differently, nor is it intuitive until you really spend time/get comfortable with those layouts, but it's designed to be efficient and ergonomic and their team really does pull it off. Despite their high learning curve, they're extremely thought-out and developed layouts. I admire the lengths the team go, and their commitment their layout(s). That kind of ambition is really exciting to see, and on the whole, it portrays a great image of passionate people working on what we all love. Fleet Keys and TheCore layouts are so fundamentally different; new players and people looking to learn new layouts are finally able to walk both ends of the hotkey spectrum when choosing/observing. The two layouts (Fleet Keys & TheCore) serve very different purposes and excel at both of them. Players need that polarization when it comes to finding advanced hotkey layouts that suit them. Fleet Keys began as me not feeling comfortable with every other layout I attempted to learn, so it was a natural step. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On March 25 2013 22:38 ViceRoyce wrote: this alt + camera hotkey is weird because the whole point of using that hotkeys is to be quick and having to click 2 buttons doesnt help. why not just use f1-f4? I responded to this question, but I will sum it up quickly. You can use Caps Lock to hop between bases, and that action also has auto-centered buildings, so it's easy to box your workers, press Caps Lock, and the Right-Click on your minerals. Aside from doing this manually through clicking the minimap, this is currently the best solution. Kaitlin mentioned moving Warp-in to another key such as F to make it more deliberate. Even though it adds an extra keystroke to reactively Warp-in, I think it's worth trying out. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On March 25 2013 23:00 crappen wrote: Just a quick question. Can I use my Spacebar key assigned to Drag Camera? Spacebar is all the time used to this, as I cant use the standard middle-mouse button to move around. I just see the Spacebar as listed, but I cant find what its usage are for. Sorry if its easily accessable, at work and probably didnt't look througly. PS: I love your work. This is amazing, and I am VERY good at getting used to new keys. It's like learning to play a new piece of music, on say guitar. And I really like the location perk, its one of the main reasons I like this, and as well as having an easier time selecting Stargate, forge, robo. What race are you playing? If Terran or Protoss, then most of this reply applies to you, if Zerg, skip to the last paragraph. About the drag-cam, yeah you could totally change that if you deem it necessary. By changing Space Bar's default binding, you'll have be be ok with using Z to access your build command as well as your important macro abilities/spells, as Space Bar used to take care of all that for you. It isn't the worst thing ever, especially if you're well versed in Grid. If you feel that it works, then by all means! Thanks a lot for loving the layout, hopefully you can bend it just enough to suit you. As Zerg, Space Bar is bound to the Next Base command. Pressing it will hop to your next Hatchery, and then the next, etc. It's bound like this to make Injects super easy to perform (Alt>X+Space Bar>Left Click). | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On March 25 2013 23:09 nottapro wrote: I just switched over to GRID, not the Fleet keys but I am going through the awkward transition stage. I can already tell that grid is superior, far simplier, I ended up switching the T key to A, and the W key to S, so that Attack and Stop are back where they were in default. Learning the new production keys isnt any harder with that change, and attack moving remains feeling natural. Of course the keys aren't as nicely aligned with their placement in the UI anymore, but your trying to turn it into muscle memory anyway, so its irrevelvent. This looks cool though, I am going to try it. I think the temporary solution to A-moving right now is putting the bulk of your army on something like 3,4, or 5 to at least keep the keys next to eachother. I thought about making Fleet Keys Standard-based to mimic Grid as much as possible, but you'll always run into the same issue of Grid being broken/re-arranged strangely for the sake of a more accessible Attack command. I'm trying to resolve this any way I can that doesn't interfere with Grid. | ||
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Zamiel
United States211 Posts
One biggest criticisms of TheCore is that JaKaTaK is only in the Platinum league and thus is not able to fully comprehend the game at a high level. (Which may or may not be true, depending one's perspective.) What league are you in with each of the three races, respectively? Question 2: One of the biggest innovations of TheCore is, for right-handed people, to move the left hand to the right side of the keyboard. This allows the modifier keys to be pressed with the thumb instead of the pinky. Since the modifier keys are the most frequently pressed keys, it should be intuitive that this will allow for faster APM, less hand contortion, less hand strain, and so forth. In your hotkey layout, you have deliberately forgone this optimization in favor of not alienating people transitioning from the grid layout. Have you ever actually given yourself time to adjust to a hotkey setup in which the thumb is used for modifier keys? If so, can you go into the concrete reasons as to why you didn't feel it necessary to include in your setup? This is a huge omission and I see it as (currently) the biggest flaw with your setup. | ||
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frankfasthands
10 Posts
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frankfasthands
10 Posts
i wanted everything as close to asdf as possible. Of course, the grid was the obvious solution, but its so restrictive in that you can't make any alteration to any specific unit/buildings, and i found that having stop and attack as non adjacent keys was a deal breaker, and then if you put them together on a grid layout, it makes other menus, like production buildings, feel strange. So, what i did was start by mapping the grid to standard, so its functionally the same, but now you have full control of each menu on a grid setup. Then I swapped out attack and pushed patrol and hold over a key, while still being able to keep every non-unit menu, like production buildings at the grid-like qwert for the top row of units. So, I'd suggest that if you like the concept of grid, but have specific issues, just map the grid to standard, and then change your specific issue. It gives you very specific control and customization instead of basically none, just at the price of a longer initial setup. Here are some other differences I find useful: -q is a really common key, as the top left in the grid, and i find w way easier than q to hit often, so i start at w and go to y. -same thing with spell casters, i prefer asd to zxc, so for those units i just kind of swapped the middle and bottom rows of the grid (i think this is the best part of the fleet layout, spell casting is so much easier now that all casters use the same keys and they are always adjacent) -I like space, instead of Control-1 for making your main army group, so i just box and hit space and then that's my first control group. Its really fast and i like having one control group i can change in battle to set up a flank or something, as i personally can't do Ctrl X while trying to multitask -I use middle mouse click as a way to cycle through subgroups. -i hit caps lock by mistake sometimes so i cant have it on anything  On March 26 2013 05:21 eneyeseekay wrote: I think the temporary solution to A-moving right now is putting the bulk of your army on something like 3,4, or 5 to at least keep the keys next to eachother. I thought about making Fleet Keys Standard-based to mimic Grid as much as possible, but you'll always run into the same issue of Grid being broken/re-arranged strangely for the sake of a more accessible Attack command. I'm trying to resolve this any way I can that doesn't interfere with Grid. | ||
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Rockafella
United Kingdom291 Posts
Go into hotkey on notepad and at the bottom enter [Commands] Attack=R MovePatrol=T 1r,2r,3r is about as comfortable as you can get with Grid and is so much better than 1t, it just feels right. If you want Q/W/E instead as the attack command you can change it but you have to switching the appropriate keys. Move=Q MoveHoldPosition=E What's amazing is this doesn't actually change ANYTHING else in the game in terms of hotkeys, I'm not 100% sure but you might be able to put individual abilities (Tranfuse etc) on different keys if you find out the correct command name but I've not experimented much with it, as all I wanted was default Grid with the above change. (just tested you can put most of the individual abilities on seperate hotkeys not allowed by Grid unless you edit by notepad, for example you can have an infestor fungal on F but have nothing else effected.. very interesting! http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7979378086?page=1 = lists all abilties < More info that people might find interesting Some people recommend having x (inject) on mouse 5 aswell, but I prefer having modifiers on the mouse keys for recalling cameras (I know it's not tournament legal though). N as zoom toggle is good for observer sniping with T, and having idle workers on H instead of ` allows you to keep ` as another Control group hotkey if you don't like the idea of layered control groups (I don't :<) Also having zoom toggle as N allows you to use mousewheel up and down as hotkeys too, Ctrl+mousewheelup : 1 drop, Ctrl+mousewheeldown : 2nd drop is pretty sexy for multi drop harass / warp prism play. > | ||
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BaRR
Australia18 Posts
1 - As a grid user I've always made my own grid layout instead of selecting -Grid in the drop-down menu. I do think because I like to have full customization over hotkeys. Mainly (A) to attack instead of (T) I think giving people the option to customize to their own play-style would be another big plus when it comes to wanted to use this layout. Also as mentioned above using the (Alt) key to warp in can be problematic. 2- I'm probably the only one but when it comes to creating and selecting camera groups (A and B) it doesn't make them. But it makes (D, F) which I'm assuming there's something I need to de-select. (NOTE: I did de-select Alt-Tab) Other than that I think this is one of the best Grid-Style layouts made. I appreciate a reply and I thank you for your efforts. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
I did not know about the notepad thing. That's really cool, definitely bookmarking that! Thanks for the post btw. Do you know if there's a list of tournament-illegal bindings? I hear of them every so often but nobody ever went into deatil about them. Outside of macros, I don't see why they would even exist, but I could be missing something (the likely thing lol). Can you, or anyone enlighten me on the topic of banned bindings since I know very little about it? I'll look for a thread in the meantime. @frankfasthands Last night I started poking around in a Standard layout that tried to mimic Grid. I'm actually pretty bummed out at one major issue that could solve all of this, and I wonder if you know anything about it. I want to apply modifier combinations with Left Click and/or Right Click. I want T's alternate Binding on Modifier?+Left Click. Is anything like that possible? I might have some other solutions, but I'll have to test them out. Standard wearing Grid's skin might be the direction I'll go once I wrap my head around the options that are available. I'm really stoked that that idea isn't a completely crazy one, and is an option at least. Thanks for the input on that. | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
On March 26 2013 11:13 BaRR wrote: I few things I don't like about this setup. (I'm not trying to hurt just giving an opinion) 1 - As a grid user I've always made my own grid layout instead of selecting -Grid in the drop-down menu. I do think because I like to have full customization over hotkeys. Mainly (A) to attack instead of (T) I think giving people the option to customize to their own play-style would be another big plus when it comes to wanted to use this layout. Also as mentioned above using the (Alt) key to warp in can be problematic. 2- I'm probably the only one but when it comes to creating and selecting camera groups (A and B) it doesn't make them. But it makes (D, F) which I'm assuming there's something I need to de-select. (NOTE: I did de-select Alt-Tab) Other than that I think this is one of the best Grid-Style layouts made. I appreciate a reply and I thank you for your efforts. I keep hearing about making Fleet Keys in Standard and I think I will draft a version of it and see how people like it. Hey don't worry about offering constructive criticism, no hurt taken. It's one more comment to push this thing in a better direction! | ||
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BaRR
Australia18 Posts
On March 26 2013 11:20 eneyeseekay wrote: I keep hearing about making Fleet Keys in Standard and I think I will draft a version of it and see how people like it. Hey don't worry about offering constructive criticism, no hurt taken. It's one more comment to push this thing in a better direction! Any idea about the camera setup Also keep strong in this project. I've tried many custom key layouts (including the alien 'Core') but this seems to be the best for grid-users.. Keep up the good work and thankyou! | ||
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