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TL;DR version (detailed post to follow):
I am looking for at least one 2 base HotS build for each race that meets the following criteria:
- Has an intended timing for attack
- Has some basic metrics as to how much stuff I should have at this timing
- Results in 2 base management (FE or expand when pushing out are both OK)
- Does not result in automatic BO loss in any matchup
The builds do not need to:
- Provide the best unit comp in any particular matchup
- Be immune to cheese
Now that is out of the way ...
Hi TL community! I am returning to SC2 after playing WoL for the duration of Beta through Season 2. As you can imagine, both my mechanics and knowledge of the meta are pretty rusty at this point.
When I played WoL, I mained Zerg at a low diamond (pre-Masters) to high diamond (post-Masters) level. However, my progress eventually stalled due to fundamental flaws with my mechanics that I felt could not be corrected without first enduring a massive losing streak on the ladder. Additionally, I never learned any macro with Terran or Protoss, and I still utterly fail at CC / Nexus energy management, hitting warpgate timings, etc.
In coming back to HotS, I decided that I want to learn each of the races and fix my fundamental mechanics issues prior to worrying heavily about meta and ladder rating. I also decided to switch from the standard keymap to a fully customized option I found on this forum. To this end, I selected my new and improved keymap, picked Random, jumped in placement matches without any warm-up, and placed in ... Silver.
I am now getting familiar enough with the key bindings and want to start on practicing my macro. To do this, I want to find decent 2 base builds for each of the races that are designed around a specific timing so I can benchmark my macro and improvement against high-level execution. It would also be helpful if the build included some basic benchmarks for what I should have going into the attack. For example, I have seen several posts recently regarding a 2 base Terran build that results in 100 supply and (I think) +1/1 at 10 minutes.
To start, I would like to focus on only one build per race. I realize that this will not always result in optimal unit composition per matchup, but honestly, I don't think optimal unit composition is necessary in lower leagues if I massively out-macro the opponent. However, the builds do need to avoid an automatic build order loss in all three of the MUs. For example, MMM is probably not ideal in a TvZ, but it should be able to defend initial Zerg pressure.
I should also define what I mean by 2 base build. To force better macro practice, I want the build to result in needing to manage 2 bases while microing my army. So a FE would work fine, but a build that starts on one base then adds the expo while pushing out is also acceptable for my needs. I do not need the builds to be impervious to cheese; I honestly do not mind if I lose a handful of games due to cheese while working on my macro. Working on scouting and adaptation will be coming in a future effort.
I browsed through Liquipedia, but most of the builds listed there are very MU specific and many do not provide the metric information I am looking for to measure my improvements. If anyone can provide some basic builds with timings and goals or point to a specific Liquipedia entry that would meet my needs, this would be extremely helpful.
Will update OP here with builds that I use for others with similar needs:
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Sorry, but there aren't really any builds that meet all of your criteria. The big knockout point is that you want the builds to work in every Match-Up. See, you can play 1 build vs. all races, and you also can have decent success at lower levels, but it's a very flawed way of learning, because it completely neglects scouting and being reactionary, which is a HUGE part of higher level play. I highly suggest you find one build per Match-Up rather than one per race.
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Grapefruit's right, though you often can come up with a general style that you can play in each matchup. For instance, you can open Robo in all three matchups, or Stargate. (PvT Stargate is a little weird, but it can work.) You could play Muta-Ling in all three matchups, adding Banes for ZvT. You could play bio in all three matchups as Terran.
You'll need different builds, but it won't be quite as hard as, say, MMM in TvP, Marine-Tank in TvZ, and pure Mech TvT.
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The build you are looking for does not exist, and never will.
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On March 17 2013 22:07 Grapefruit wrote:
Sorry, but there aren't really any builds that meet all of your criteria. The big knockout point is that you want the builds to work in every Match-Up. See, you can play 1 build vs. all races, and you also can have decent success at lower levels, but it's a very flawed way of learning, because it completely neglects scouting and being reactionary, which is a HUGE part of higher level play. I highly suggest you find one build per Match-Up rather than one per race.
To the three posters above, I think you are missing a couple of key points that I may have failed to make clear in the OP:
1. I am not concerned about winning (at this time)
2. I am not concerned about optimal builds in any particular match-up
3. I am primarily concerned with improving my macro mechanics across all three races
Now I want to dig into the quoted post a little deeper. I absolutely understand that playing one build against all races will not result in success at higher levels. However, I am not currently striving for success at higher levels. Right now, I specifically want to focus on macro mechanics and consistently managing multiple bases while engaging with my army.
You mention above that this method neglects scouting and reactionary play. To an extent it does, but I also realize that I cannot concurrently focus on improving every aspect of play, including: macro, micro, scouting, reacting appropriately, and having intricate knowledge of the meta game. In fact, this is what I attempted to do in WoL, and while I got pretty good at scouting and reacting, I hit a skill cap based on deficient macro mechanics.
You also suggest I learn one build per MU. Again, this is something I want to postpone so that I can maximize my focus on one area (macro), versus attempting to learn macro and meta simultaneously. When my macro is solid enough, I will either branch out to one build per MU, or settle in on one race to focus upon.
So please keep in mind that my goal here is not to win, but to repeatedly practice a relatively safe build that will get me to the stage of managing 2 bases and an army (barring losses to cheese or really well executed 1 base all-ins which I am fine with ATM). To further clarify, let me give you a few outdated examples from long long ago (WoL release):
Zerg: At the beginning of WoL, Zerg almost always wanted to FE against Terran, but FE against Protoss was very dangerous due to 2 gate pressure builds. Instead, many Zerg opted for a speedling expand as it was relatively safe against the 2 gate, and also worked well in ZvZ. Specifically against Terran, speedling expand would leave you slightly behind when compared to FE, but the deficit created from perfectly executed speedling expand was not impossible to overcome (and often left the Zerg in a better place than a poorly executed FE would have).
Protoss:FFE was popular against Zerg, but could often result in a loss against Terran due to close positions and marine / marauder positioning. Instead, the 3 gate sentry expand was reasonably successful in both MUs as it could defend early aggression from either Terran or Zerg (and maybe Protoss, but idk). Note that the 3 gate sentry expand also had a specific time in mind where the Protoss could push out and apply pressure of his own without being all-in due to proper FF usage.
It is these type of generically safe builds that I am looking for, hopefully with some indication of how much stuff I should have at a particular point in time, so that I can benchmark my macro against someone with good macro. I agree that the other functions such as scouting, knowledge of different MUs, etc. is important, but I cannot focus on every aspect of gameplay simultaneously. Currently, I am looking to focus specifically on macro mechanics, and I believe one build per race, albeit generally safe, is sufficient for this goal - especially considering my opponents are in Sliver league.
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So a decent TvZ two base push I have been doing is a stim +1 marine mine push. It is a 15 gas expand into 2 rax fact and hits somewhere around 8:30-9:30, with a follow up with a Bio mine follow up. Usually I build about 3-4 marines before getting a reactor on the first barracks and a a reactor on the factory with no building swapping. Afterwards second Barracks when it can be afforded with tech lab. Get stim when possible. Add ebay and start +1 attack. when I push I have about 10-12 marines and 4-6 mines depending on how bad my macro was. This tends to hit just before zergs get out an overseer. The follow up is while pushing added a starport and an extra barracks. If I want to two base all in I add a second factory and get hellbats or two extra rax for marauders depending on if the zerg has gone roaches or muta ling bling
Edit: Ends up being more like 16 or so marines maybe more. I can't count :D.
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Whilst it's not a 2 base timing attack, I would highly recommend the staircase to improve your macro:
the staircase
just keep a running tab on which 'level' you're on for each particular race.
The reason i suggest it despite not being a 2base timing attack is that it has all the metrics you need build into the system, and you can set your league goals accordingly.
I found it quite refreshing experience too.
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Uhhhh for Protoss I did something like this 2 years ago.
Standard 1 Gate expo into Robo
Forge + 3 gates, +1 attack
Rush Colossus + range upgrade
Twilight Council, Charge upgrade
Go up to 6 gates, start +2 attack
Attack with 3 colossus and whatever gateway army you can muster up
The attack was meant to hit around 11:30 mins AFAIK and designed to beat a Terran who decided to go 3 bases too quickly. Been over a year since I last played so I have no idea what timings are at now.
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Here is a quick easy build for zerg that anyone can do, I think it's what you're after.
9 Overlord
15 Hatch
16 Pool
15 Gas
17 Overlord
2x Queens when hatches finish, hatch and pool will finish at same time.
24 Overlord
28 Overlord
-> First 100 Gas Ling Speed or Burrow
-> Take workers out of gas after mining 300 total gas.
5:00 roach warren
32 2x Overlord, Stop making drones
Make 8 roaches when warren finishes + speed lings or drones
Arrive at opponents base around 7:00-7:15 with 8 roaches and either speedlings, or preparing to take a third behind it and drone up while applying pressure
Don't waste your roaches, burrow to heal wounded etc.
Hope that helps.
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EPT
