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edit: ok nevermind we are having two separate conversations here. Assuming a 2 player map
Case 1: 6-10 pool without gas. In this case you can hold with zealots so i don't think going gas is that efficient. Case 2: 10-14pool speedling. In this case yeah getting gasses is good. I'm not sure about walling your ramp, as on many maps it's really hard to reach it with an overcharge so the msc may not be that helpful. I feel like simcitying your main properly on maps where it's possible would be better (Parting vs i believe Life from an early HotS match on Star Station being an ok example i suppose).
In both situations your exact gas count doesn't reaaally matter since timings get thrown out of the window by the early pool, my bad there. I misread and thought you were avvocating doing that as a standard build vs any pool before hatch build, which yeah not good
On December 25 2014 00:02 Teoita wrote: It isn't, nexus->gate has warpgate delayed by about 30 seconds while being a few probes ahead of gate->nexus. It's also less safe against 6-8 pools.
Are you sure? There is a delay when gateway finishes and the time your cyber core starts since you need a pylon at 17 supply and double gas at 18 supply. It doesn't give to faster warpgate afaik
with nexus -> gate u have 250 minerals as soon as gateway completes for a zealot + cyber
I'm 99% sure that there is a difference yeah. I played with gate/nexus and nexus/gate builds>light gateway pressure a while ago, and i remember hitting at like 7:20 off nexus first and sub 7 minutes off gateway first, although both builds weren't optimized particularly well. I did cut probes to get my cyber core up asap in both cases though. Also i was opening single gas.
On December 25 2014 00:02 Teoita wrote: It isn't, nexus->gate has warpgate delayed by about 30 seconds while being a few probes ahead of gate->nexus. It's also less safe against 6-8 pools.
Are you sure? There is a delay when gateway finishes and the time your cyber core starts since you need a pylon at 17 supply and double gas at 18 supply. It doesn't give to faster warpgate afaik
with nexus -> gate u have 250 minerals as soon as gateway completes for a zealot + cyber
You are correct. I don't know what build Teo was doing, but you shouldn't get warp gate faster unless you change the build. I can't play right now because my primary hd died and I still need a replacement, but since I've always had the same feeling as you I decided to double check. Rain vs Solar on Nimbus - 3:40 cybercore (15 nexus, 15 gate, cybercore asap). Rain vs Effort on Foxtrot Labs - cybercore actually a couple of seconds after 3:40 (13 gate + scout, 17 nexus, yada yada). So without going out of his way to change these builds, his cybercore was actually slightly delay in comparison to a nexus gate rather than 20-30 seconds faster.
Of course you could go out of your way to get a faster cybercore if you open gateway first, but that's beyond the point. The quicker wg may be Teoita's reason for going gate nexus, but definitely not Rain's.
On December 25 2014 00:02 Teoita wrote: It isn't, nexus->gate has warpgate delayed by about 30 seconds while being a few probes ahead of gate->nexus. It's also less safe against 6-8 pools.
Are you sure? There is a delay when gateway finishes and the time your cyber core starts since you need a pylon at 17 supply and double gas at 18 supply. It doesn't give to faster warpgate afaik
with nexus -> gate u have 250 minerals as soon as gateway completes for a zealot + cyber
You are correct. I don't know what build Teo was doing, but you shouldn't get warp gate faster unless you change the build. I can't play right now because my primary hd died and I still need a replacement, but since I've always had the same feeling as you I decided to double check. Rain vs Solar on Nimbus - 3:40 cybercore (15 nexus, 15 gate, cybercore asap). Rain vs Effort on Foxtrot Labs - cybercore actually a couple of seconds after 3:40 (13 gate + scout, 17 nexus, yada yada). So without going out of his way to change these builds, his cybercore was actually slightly delay in comparison to a nexus gate rather than 20-30 seconds faster.
Of course you could go out of your way to get a faster cybercore if you open gateway first, but that's beyond the point. The quicker wg may be Teoita's reason for going gate nexus, but definitely not Rain's.
yea it seems odd, he might be confusing gate -> nexus with gate -> 15 gas -> nexus? Idk, if you cut probes to get a faster cyber core then you might as well do normal gateway FE. o.O
The way I see it, players started going 13 gate 17 nexus - on 2 player maps - as a response to zergs blind countering the popular 15 nexus 15 gate. You can also go nexus/forge first, but that's a very different approach.
@Teoita No surprise, your PvZ builds are always dirty. (I dunno why your mechanics would affect any of that though)
hahahaha nono, what it sounds like is that you're just trying to hit a harder timing... just like in PvP, one could go "13 gate? why not 12? 11? maybe 10?"... then suddenly, you find yourself doing the gate nexus build, but so obsessed with your timing that you end up going cybercore before your second pylon because yolo :D
Hi there Lately i have some difficulties vs a terran common cheesy play. They build a rax in the main base, and another rax hidden in natural. Sometimes they push off 2 rax, other times they build 4 rax and push with marine and scvs.
I tried with forge and cannons, but it is a huge investment and terran can still break throught or just go back and macro while i have a huge delay.
I tried fast msc with gate units off 3 gate, but still, I have to micro hard because he has more units than me, and, after i kill the push, i'm still behind because I have no tech while he has 3-4 rax and started building a 2nd.
I tried to react as for 3 rax stim, with fast sentries, but in this case they mass lots of units, I still cannot expand while he macro and block my 2nd with his units. There is no way my gate units can win vs his marine marauder, and he wins any way.
Usually when protoss cheese it's a win or a loss. It seems terrans can do whatever they want without loosing a thing. So I would ask, what I should do to counter this kind of plays? is there any way to punish HARD a terran for playng this way?
pps: I think there is still the #dreampool fever latelay. I'm getting cheese play almost every game!
It's hard to understand what you're talking about. Maybe you should post a replay. The 2 rax inside the main sounds like a gas variation, which people used to do in WoL, with marauders and concussive shells. To hold this kind of pushes, you can still go 1 gate expo, also considering that many players (like me) scout in PvT after their nexus is already taken. What makes them weak is photon overcharge, since they're frontal attacks that hit without enough firepower to focus down an overcharged nexus. Obviously cannons are a terrible choice. I'd say, if you are expanding, all you can do is to rush for 3/4 warpgates. Build as many units as you can from your gateways while warpgate is being researched; once warpgate is ready you should hold comfortably. Against marines/scvs you want to build only stalkers. Against marauders/marines, you also need some zealots to tank marauder shots as you can't kite against concussive shells. Sentries are really not that useful, they cost too much gas. I suppose maybe you can build one to prevent your opponent from walking up the ramp to bypass your overcharge, but that's it. Of course, micro is really important. Kite as much as you can and focus down any marauders. Against a marine-only push, you can kite your opponent's attack all the way from his base to yours, provided you have enough multitasking. If you save the expo then you're really ahead because you can quickly chronoboost out a ton of probes, and you can also tech to something (blink, robo) when you have almost held the attack. On the other hand, you can also make a 1 base hold if you scout it (very) early. You won't be 1 base up but if you kill all his units then your counter attack will be very strong. Obviously in this case you want to rush out a tech otherwise it's pointless (add 2 gateways afterwards); for example, fast oracle (your opponent probably won't have any defense when it hits) or blink, or even DTs (with 1 OC there can only be a scan every 90 seconds).
i stop it with inmortals. Since i cant scout inside i dont know if he is going 1-1-1 mine drop or x rax all in. I always open fast robo into 2 gateways more, and if the push come around min 6:00 (without stim) you can slow dow until 7:00 with the nexus, enough time to chrono 1 inmortal and warp 3 stalkers from you gateways. with 4 stalkers 1 sentry and 1 inmortal you will hold.
You just need to not lose you MSC and you first sentry-stalker. And if he pull SCV you pull probes or run to you main waiting for a 2nd warp in - inmortal. The terran without stim cant kill the nexus.
Depends on the timing of the attack, but you generally want to whittle the force down with stalker kiting as it pushes across the map. Careful use of forcefields and photon overcharge will crush any 2 rax without difficulty. The 4 rax variant isn't really any different, you just need to see it coming in time and react appropriately. In general, stalkers and mothership core should be more than enough to deal with this kind of stuff, as long as you kite it from their base.
In general, with terran early game aggression, the solution is to start poking away with it as it leaves it's base.
On December 26 2014 07:58 Whitewing wrote: Depends on the timing of the attack, but you generally want to whittle the force down with stalker kiting as it pushes across the map. Careful use of forcefields and photon overcharge will crush any 2 rax without difficulty. The 4 rax variant isn't really any different, you just need to see it coming in time and react appropriately. In general, stalkers and mothership core should be more than enough to deal with this kind of stuff, as long as you kite it from their base.
In general, with terran early game aggression, the solution is to start poking away with it as it leaves it's base.
If I understand well, I think the question was about a 2 rax before the expand, I remember Cure doing this build to a protoss on Merry Go Round. To hold that you first need to know it's coming and you can't relly on immortal as it's marine heavy and you will not have enough time to get immortal.
Chrono gateway unit and get maybe a second gateway is the only way.
VOD if somebody want to know what I'm talking about :
Edit : Watched the VOD once again. I think you need more than a 2nd gate. Of course, Classic made a mistake when he let the bunker finish, but even if he didn't that push seems really hard to hold. I'm really clueless of how to scout it without seeing the 2nd rax and how to hold this one with standard opening.
well if he get bunkers you lose no matter what. Watching the VOD to see the timings The timing are based on that game and can be different in other maps.
He had 3 marines in the protoss natural at 4:30 again 1 MSC. He had 5 marines in the protoss natural at 4:55 again 1 MSC 1 Stalker with Chrono. He could have 7 marines in the protoss natural at 5:20 again 1 MSC 2 Stalker (again with chrono) or 1 MSC 1 stalker without chrono.
So he can have 8 marines at 5:35 (the timing when you have the nexus cannon up) and lets asume you dont scout He can attack you at 5:20 with 7 marines and you will only have 1 MSC and 1 Stalker if you dont scout anything. .
The terran have 2 options: 1.- Let you know he is 2 raxing and try to snipe MSC or get bunkers with his 3 first marines. You can chrono stalkers and use nexus cannon at 5:35 2.- Wait for more marines, attack with 7 marines again you MSC and 1 Stalker. I think this is a little hard to hold and you will need to pull some probes and chrono 1 stalker more.
He can expand without delaying much his marine production.
So you pretty much need to defend again 7 marines with 1 MSC and 1 Stalker, and then again 13 marines 1 minute more, without delaying so much you economy, but you can lose some probes. You can get gateways as you active the nexus cannon at 5:35 and they will finish when the nexus canno goes off, and if you chono warpgate you will warp while the terran is attacking again.
I think this is a little hard to hold without scout but is possible. The hardest moment is 5:20 with 7 marines because you cant lose the msc or any stalker and you need to kite while pulling probes with just 1 MSC and 1 stalker, wait 15 sec for nexus cannon.
If you scout it if you send you probe to scout after nexus, and you see the marines coming, you can hold this really easy with chronoboosting stalkers and sending you single stalker to kite.
The terran can get early raxes if he stop making workers, like a proxy rax but in your base, but i dont know why would do it inbase instead of proxy in the middle of the map.
I hope this is understandable my english sucks sorry Edit: I was wrong in some timings, fixed.
Thanks everyone for answers. Yep, the timing is something like 5:30 with 7-8 marines, he keep producing them until i'm dead. Other times, they do something like 3 rax but with 2 rax, mixing marines with 2 marauder -> deadly vs stalkers. But still, i can micro more easly because once marauders are dead there are less marine to deal with. When those marines come, i had 2 stalkers and the msc. I used po asap, and when it finished he just got 15 rines vs 5 stalker and msc and killed me. I can micro stalker ok, but he micro his rines towards me and has too much firepower for me to save them.
Guess the best thing to do is block him with ff while I get more units and a robo. With few immortals I could push his natural while i exp myself.
By the way, I'm having another trouble. Something like 90% zergs I play against place hatchery in my natural. I usually open FFE: when i see hatchery i put 2 probes attacking it and place a cannon. I also cannon rush their natural, but it seems It does more damage to me than to them. I got a delayed nexus, plus I delayed tech and units for cannon rushing his natural. He go roach/ling off 1 base and wins.
I'm just wondering if I should not cannon rush his natural after I kill his hatchery in my natural, or I need to kil both but just spam gateways instead of teching, to defend. Ho do u deal with it? And don't tell me to open gate exp, I open both ways, but still need to know how to deal with this!
On December 27 2014 00:29 Icekin wrote: By the way, I'm having another trouble. Something like 90% zergs I play against place hatchery in my natural. I usually open FFE: when i see hatchery i put 2 probes attacking it and place a cannon. I also cannon rush their natural, but it seems It does more damage to me than to them. I got a delayed nexus, plus I delayed tech and units for cannon rushing his natural. He go roach/ling off 1 base and wins.
I'm just wondering if I should not cannon rush his natural after I kill his hatchery in my natural, or I need to kil both but just spam gateways instead of teching, to defend. Ho do u deal with it? And don't tell me to open gate exp, I open both ways, but still need to know how to deal with this!
I don't have a lot of experience with this situation as I start to open FFE again after months of Gateway expand.
But what I notice is pro going for 2 cannons and just teching up to cyber as usual then waiting for the creep to disapear. I guess that's how you should react if the hatch is in your natural.
By the way, I'm having another trouble. Something like 90% zergs I play against place hatchery in my natural. I usually open FFE: when i see hatchery i put 2 probes attacking it and place a cannon. I also cannon rush their natural, but it seems It does more damage to me than to them. I got a delayed nexus, plus I delayed tech and units for cannon rushing his natural. He go roach/ling off 1 base and wins.
I'm just wondering if I should not cannon rush his natural after I kill his hatchery in my natural, or I need to kil both but just spam gateways instead of teching, to defend. Ho do u deal with it? And don't tell me to open gate exp, I open both ways, but still need to know how to deal with this!
One cannon is not enough. As soon as you see the proxy , throw down 2 cannons instead of your nexus. Try to build them as further as you can from the hatch so that they protect your wall too. The hatchery won't even finish. Cannon rushing their natural seems a bad choice in general. If he proxy hatches you he sees that you are going forge first, so it's really dumb for him to expand before pool. If he expands after the pool , you can't cannon rush him as usual. The best thing you can do is pylon blocking his natural. Build a gateway and only 1 gas, if you take 2 you won't have enough money to start the nexus immediately. Once you've taken your natural, get the 2nd gas and the core. At this point you should be slightly ahead/even because you already gateway tech with 2 cannons protecting the wall and his expo will also be severely delayed by your pylon blocks. I suppose that a gateway pressure could be a good follow up since you have your gate/cyber core up slightly earlier than what your opponent expects, having started it before expanding.
By the way 90% proxy hatching is really random. Please don't use statistics made up on spot.
EPT
my english sucks sorry
