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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
That aside, I'm not here to ask about PvT, more a little PvZ question. I just bumped into a Plat Zerg on ladder and he went mass roach which honestly is a bitch to take on as a Protoss given how good roaches are. I didn't actually scout it until I went to attack so I pretty much died in that engagement. Any tips on how to deal with this? I'll throw in the replay of the game for people to look at: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5499193 | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On October 09 2014 21:40 KatatoniK wrote: I didn't actually scout it until I went to attack so I pretty much died in that engagement. Any tips on how to deal with this? you answered your own question | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
KatatoniK, I'm not sure about how deep you want the feedback to be. Most of your issues are with your 'backbone' and not really with your choice of strategy per se. I'll try and keep my expectations low, as I think it's most important to work on a few aspects at a time. General Aspects - Most Glaring Issues - You cut probes as 36. This is an issue. There is no reason for this. There might be a more specific build where this can be the point of the build. But not at your level, not at my level (possibly not at any level). You want to keep building probes, even beyond saturation and start considering getting a third base. Probes and Pylons is the most important aspect of the race, as it'll contribute to you attaining the largest army that is possibly for you to have. - Flow of Reinforcements. When attacking you opponent, you want to have a forward pylon. This increases the potency of your aggression, and can possibly turn a 'poke' into a killing blow. You also want to constantly warp in units as soon as the warpgates come off cooldown, while you attack. Build extra pylons in advance in order to keep your reinforcement stream smooth. Issues with Build - Your build was generally not very good. I won't go into detail as you can view VODs and look in the The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit for some general builds. - The initial error was to constantly utilise your gateway in the beginning in order to build two zealots, sentry, and stalkers right away. My biggest issue with this is the second zealot and the stalkers after the sentry. This costs minerals that should have gone into probes at that timing. Personally I build a single Zealot and then Sentries afterward, using the minerals for chronoboosting probes. - Gas timing. For the first two gases, almost regardless of build, when you put down your nexus before your Cybernetics Core, you'll want to take double gas at 19 supply, rather than a single gas earlier. - People would probably critisise your opening of going Forge-Gateway-Nexus as well. I think you decided to put down the gateway as a response to scouting the spawning pool. Your decision was quite mistaken in this specific case, but I think you will learn more as you adopt more solid builds, and get to experience more games. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
My PvP has actually been decent lately, but I've realized that it's the only matchup where I don't even remotely have a "build." I'm doing it 100% differently every single game based on what my opponent is doing. Is that weird? I just feel like there are too many things that 1 build cannot account for that you.. need to account for? If that makes sense. Consider my decision tree: a) Scout 4 Gate = I go DTs b) Scout 1 Gate = Drop Stargate and I know MsC is free to roam the map a bit so I try to figure out what he's doing c) Scout 2 Gates = I go robo and keep my MsC at home knowing I won't be able to scout much and focus on fast expand and defense How is there possibly room for a build order there? Seems like I do the best when I just wing it. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 10 2014 02:15 KingAlphard wrote: I think it's fine, but you need to scout early to do this. If you take double gas at 15 and put 3 probes in each assimilator, that already forces you to do certain kinds of builds. I guess you need a 13 scout in 2 spawn maps. Non reactive build orders allow you (or should I say 'give you an excuse'?) to scout later and hit earlier timings. I usually go double gas on 15 with 3 each and scout after cyber on 2p maps or after gateway on 3-4p maps (in which case i go 2 on each gas for a little then 3 to make up some mineral income). So I guess it's fine? I'm just worried because one of my weaknesses in vT and vZ is "build orders" (or so I'm told). Just want to make sure I'm doing things efficiently. But perhaps in PvP it's okay to wing it. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On October 10 2014 02:25 DinoMight wrote: I usually go double gas on 15 with 3 each and scout after cyber on 2p maps or after gateway on 3-4p maps (in which case i go 2 on each gas for a little then 3 to make up some mineral income). So I guess it's fine? I'm just worried because one of my weaknesses in vT and vZ is "build orders" (or so I'm told). Just want to make sure I'm doing things efficiently. But perhaps in PvP it's okay to wing it. You said you go robo against 2 gateways. I don't know about that. 1 gate robo is completely out of the meta, I would rather go oracle->robo or oracle->blink or blink directly. Also, you should mine less gas if you want to go robo. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 10 2014 05:18 KingAlphard wrote: You said you go robo against 2 gateways. I don't know about that. 1 gate robo is completely out of the meta, I would rather go oracle->robo or oracle->blink or blink directly. Also, you should mine less gas if you want to go robo. Well 2 gateways could be a number of things, could be blink, could be DTs, could be just 3 gate pressure. Also, MsC can't scout because he will likely have a few Stalkers on the field. So just to be safe I go robo in that scenario. What is your reaction to 2 gates? Somtimes I also go 1 Oracle then Void Ray because I know he's not making 2 gates to sit at home (unless he expands in which case he's not attacking and i don't need units that can fight immediately... if that makes sense). | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 10 2014 05:28 Teoita wrote: 2gates can be absolutely anything, no point having a different reaction from 1gate other than maybe being slightly less greedy because he can do a warpgate timing slightly more easily. Well the difference is 2 gates you def. can't MsC scout. So it can be anything and you have no way of knowing. On October 10 2014 06:05 Xinzoe wrote: 2 gates in general is rarely followed up by a stargate in which case you can go oracle and be aggressive and have detection at the same time. if it's a 2 gate -> stargate then it's delayed for too long that your phoenix count would still be even. this is what I've seen from the games i've played Hmm, I guess. Though I'm but a lowly Diamond and people do everything... | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On October 10 2014 05:25 DinoMight wrote: Well 2 gateways could be a number of things, could be blink, could be DTs, could be just 3 gate pressure. Also, MsC can't scout because he will likely have a few Stalkers on the field. So just to be safe I go robo in that scenario. What is your reaction to 2 gates? Somtimes I also go 1 Oracle then Void Ray because I know he's not making 2 gates to sit at home (unless he expands in which case he's not attacking and i don't need units that can fight immediately... if that makes sense). Robo is safe, but still somewhat weak against most common openings. 2 gateways into DT, I think I've never seen it. They just come in too late. The most common follow ups are 1) blink 2) oracle . Robo is terrible against stargate, that's pretty much acknowledged. Against blink, it's kind of meh. You defend, but you give up map control and you can still take a lot of damage from harassment throughout the game. When I play against 2 gateways my adjustments are 1) not going phoenixes if I opened stargate and 2) getting enough units to make sure I can defend my ramp from the initial 3 stalkers. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13414 Posts
On October 10 2014 06:24 Teoita wrote: You can easily go fast dt off 2gate builds, you just build the twilight council before the second and third stalker. Yup pushing out the probe means that you can do this and your opponent can only assume you have 3 stalkers coming. Teo and I did this build in HotS beta was super fun! | ||
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Caetus
United States2 Posts
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On October 11 2014 00:40 Caetus wrote: Ok, so my go to for PvT is 1gate FE into oracles, followed up by 2 additional gates, a robo, and a fast robo bay for colossus. The oracles allow me to get key scouting information, i feel the stargate just kinda drags me down, as i don't use it mid-late game. any ideas on how to use the stargate and/or any other methods of scouting. Keep in mind i have the first oracle in there base at around 6:00. Observer would be a good idea, but i believe it gets in their base slower (please correct me if i'm wrong i'm only plat), and it is also easily denied once it is in the base due to MT's and it being so slow, with the oracle MT's are easily dodged due to speed. You can't get a fast robo bay with the build you described. Maybe 7:30 at earliest. I think you should get the robo bay before the 2 additional gateways. | ||
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Caetus
United States2 Posts
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On October 11 2014 06:26 Caetus wrote: I'll change it up so that the robo is before the 2 gateways, I am always casting revelation scouting etc. etc. phoenix would be a good idea to go along with the coli, but do phoenix's out dps vikings? Because terran usually gets about 2 vikings per collosus, so how many phoenixes would it take to beat that number? 3:2 ratio? Not sure at what level you are playing at, but generally, you just want to keep producing without hampering the rest of your regular build-up. Straight up out-dps'ing or beating Vikings isn't necessarily the critical aspect. I think the most important thing is that the Phoenix'es tank viking shots (vikings deal reduced damage to non-Armored), so that the Colossus can do their work unhampered. If you're playing at a level where the opponent focuses with vikings while micro'ing bio, I'm assuming that you can focus vikings with stalkers and phoenix, so that the Phoenix-Viking ratio becomes relatively unimportant as you'll chew through the vikings. Most important is to buy them but not buy too many that you lack critical aoe such as colossus and storm in the lategame. | ||
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