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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On June 04 2013 06:56 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2013 06:48 Wrathsc2 wrote:On June 04 2013 06:24 azngamer828 wrote:
i dont know if anyone has asked this but i have a question regarding TvZ
1) i am watching demuslim's stream and he uses marine/medivac/hellbat compositions and later adding marauders for ultralisks... i noticed he doesnt use much mines (or as far as i see on stream haha) but my question is...
when do you actually use mines or use hellbats or both?
rephrase... on what composition of zerg do you use mines or hellbats or both?
hope that question is clear haha if u have good splits...by all means go with the hellbat composition. demuslism is going for that composition because it works really well against ling bling muta because he can split decently. However, widow mines are still better imo especially against z that use a shit ton of banes. I dont dare to say which is better : mines or hellbats. Demuslim uses hellbats instead of mines because he thinks the mines damages his troops to much. Thats what he said on stream. Ofcourse he also uses WM's but not like innovation dus everytime. Remember forgg in semifinal against stephano... thats why demu likes hellbats also. They can cost u games too.
I think you can only really go hellbat in situations in which you know the Zerg is going to be gas starved because otherwise he is supposed to just make a shit ton of banes and roll you over and then even the best splits won't savel you. I don't think it's better to go hellbat straight up against muta ling baneling instead of mines because mines are good against mutas banes and zerglings while hellbats are only really good against lings and only decent against banes.
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On June 05 2013 15:33 Persh wrote:Thanks jeffrey  The marauders and keeping making widowmines make the build much safer  (innovation so greedy ;D) Btw, when do you think a tank is required versus zerg allins?
It all depends on the type of all in, and how dedicated they are to it for me. If I scout no third base, and it's roach bane, or roach 1/1 mass with speed, yes I get a very early 2nd factory and churn out tanks. At least once you defend you can push out and take your inbase third and land it, or go shit on some zerg with tank hopping play.
Just my opinion and advice, I'd listen to some of the higher up Ts that come through here.
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hey folks !
im a high diamond players and facing master players quite often ,
now my biggest problem is proxy immortal all in on 3 gates with sentries
even if i ask my opppenent to do that and preparing for it with 4 bunkers at the natural the 3-4 immortals just crush everything in seconds the scvs are just not fast enough to keep up with the 50 dmg !!!
how to deal with this ? and how can i be sure thats not a 3 gate stalker all in ?? when im scouting his base and see theres no 3rd pylon i can be sure that its a proxy but not if it is blink or immortal ...
i really suffer on that one any advise ??
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Hey Dwf, wondering if you could answer some questions regarding TvP. At the minute, it is my worst matchup by far, and is holding me back from making that final push to Masters. I have a hard time getting an 'edge' in this matchup, and I have a hard time settling on a build. What I mean is, I will generally try to be aggressive with the main poke, and try to drop to keep momentum. What happens more often than not, is I don't do enough damage with dropping, and I feel behind. I feel behind because I can't seem to punish Protoss players greed, or I have a hard time identifying greed that is not Nexus first, or Nexus before Cybercore.
My games usually go something like this;
1. I scout proxy --> I hold proxy and feel ahead --> I try and pressure --> I lose to deathball
2. Game proceeds macro --> I try and pressure--> I lose to deathball
If I can't win before a point, I feel like I have lost the game.
I have a hard time being aggressive, if my first initial attempts at aggression fail, or are swatted away without much effort, I feel I am on a timer and a razors edge, which makes me play nervously, which compounds in a twitchy, terrible engagement, or throwing units at the Protoss in the form of drops, to try and achieve something to even the score.
Another number of things I have noted, I'm always at a upgrade disadvantage, do I get upgrades the normal route, e.g. Engibay(1) gets +1, and halfway through Armor +1, add on Engibay(2) and Armory? I seem to have trouble getting the gas for the tech I want midgame, I go fairly Marauder heavy, which obviously cuts into my gas (Do I want to go more Marine heavy, with only a few Marauders?), and I am unsure of when to take my 4th Gas. (which I presume is build dependent, but is there a general time?) I'm also unsure of the ideal medivac count I want, cutting after the 3rd and 4th Medivac to make Vikings for Collosus tech doesn't seem to do enough, or is that just me being bad? Is substituting Hellbats for Marines viable outside 1-2 base gimmickry? Do I want to play passive with my army when I reach max, to try and keep a favorable position for an engagement for instance? Do I cut producing army to get Viking/Ghost tech so I don't max too early? If I do max early on an inferior composition, do I want to trade with drops, or multi-pronged ground aggression to free up supply? Are drops worth it? I have seen a lot of pro's favor keeping the Medivacs with the main army so they don't have to afford buying Medivac/Viking at the same time to make up for lost drops, is this common?
Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks in advance.
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Edit: What he said ^^
So, I was facing 80% masters for a while on ladder and then I hit a patch of 12 Protoss, after which I ended up getting matched against 2 gold players. It used to be my best matchup in WOL.
I don't like the LG-IM build - If the Protoss takes no damage from the mines (which is fairly easy to do if they suspect it coming) then you are behind economically, and can't attack until your bio upgrades are done around 12 minutes. You also have less units because you bought those expensive paperweights (factory and starport.) But you have +1 armor vs toss, so there is that...
1/1/1 and 2 rax get shut down hard becasue of MSC and the large map sizes, so I feel like the only viable option in TvP is CC first.
+ Show Spoiler +
The last ladder game, I scouted 2 gas before the gateway was even complete. I got a turret and a bunker and was feeling good. Then no Oracle... a Mothership core? I died to 2 base colossus (!) WTF?
I just played 9 games on Whirlwind against my mid-diamond Protoss friend, and lost all 9. He only expanded once. When I got 3 bunkers, he did a warp prism 4 gate. When I got a fast turret and marines, he went blink. When I went for 6 rax, he went DTs. When I went almost pure marauder, he went 3 gate zealot + proxy oracle. (Looked just like blink, all I saw was 2 stlakers.) And then there was the cannon rush game, and 2 games with hidden pylons in my main for standard 4gates. (He distracted my initial marines with chrono'd zealots so I forgot to check)
I have watched all of Jazzman's pro VODs in his CC first guide, and frankly I'm just not as fast as Marine King and Innovation.
Any one of these 9 replays is not going to tell you one over-arching flaw in my play... I forgot to put my depot back up after checking for a proxy pylon, I stockpile money and don't make add-ons or supply depots when microing 3 marines vs 2 zealots, I should be luckier about not scouting in last position on a big map, I should know the difference between the 10000 builds that involve 2 gas, 3 gates, and 2 pylons and prepare for them before I can possibly know for sure what they are. I should misclick less and not get supply blocked when I am being harassed by a 90 APM Protoss. I shouldn't get distracted and I should start upgrades on time and put workers in gas when it is done. There isn't one thing, I just can't deal with ANYTHING Protoss does.
I read this thread every single day at work and have read the OP multiple times, I have watched many of the VODs, but I just can't win. If it ever gets to late game, I try to lead with my ghosts and vikings and spread my bio while sniping templar but what ends up happening is that they send a small pack of chargelots forward and surround the ghosts and fry them with colossus before i can retreat while pulling the templar out of range. Planetary nexus + a cannon just shuts down multi-prong drops and I end up losing a medivac more often than not. When I have constant production, on-time upgrades, no supply blocks, I eat a storm 100% of the time and instantly lose because I am looking at my base too much.
^^Additional wall of text/pity party^^
I'm just really bad at this game but that still seems to get me wins in TvT and TvZ. I don't even know what I am asking for here, but I am a Terran and I need help. I just don't know how or if I can be helped!
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Hi TL.
I am planning on coming back to SC2.
1. Yes,I have read, I repeat, I have read the OP. However, there are many options in terms of the openings for each matchup, so I would like to know - what is the most popular, or at least most widely used opening in each match up?
2. Secondly, kinda connected to question 1. Question 1 is about opening, and in this question I would like to ask about general unit composition for each matchup. Surely after opening strategies (question 1) we need to transition to a macro game, and that is what I need answered in this question Maybe something like
TvT: Still marine/tank to sky terran if late game
TvZ: MMM + mines now? So 4M? Hellbats good or not?
TvP: Still MMM and maybe add widow mines?
Thanks guys!
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Is it still ok to open rax gas reaper cc in TvZ? Or should I be doing the 14 CC build? I feel more comfortable expanding off 1 rax honestly, but is it still good?
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On June 06 2013 12:27 A Wild Sosd wrote:
Is it still ok to open rax gas reaper cc in TvZ? Or should I be doing the 14 CC build? I feel more comfortable expanding off 1 rax honestly, but is it still good?
Yes it is still good to open off a rax expo(like 2 reaper into CC etc. for map control and scouting)
Personally I feel comfortable with this opening instead of CC first.
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On June 06 2013 12:08 ottoottoottootto wrote:Hi TL. I am planning on coming back to SC2. 1. Yes,I have read, I repeat, I have read the OP. However, there are many options in terms of the openings for each matchup, so I would like to know - what is the most popular, or at least most widely used opening in each match up? 2. Secondly, kinda connected to question 1. Question 1 is about opening, and in this question I would like to ask about general unit composition for each matchup. Surely after opening strategies (question 1) we need to transition to a macro game, and that is what I need answered in this question Maybe something like TvT: Still marine/tank to sky terran if late game TvZ: MMM + mines now? So 4M? Hellbats good or not? TvP: Still MMM and maybe add widow mines? Thanks guys!
I'll answer with personal experience here, I got no statistics to back it up but I doubt anyone besides Blizzard would be able to put such a statistic together
Most common openings for each match up probably looks like this:
Terran vs ZerG:
14 cc. Its the most macro-focused build that you can go for. It has its risk, but the reward is huge and you rarely get punished for the cc first in the first place, so its a good build to use all around and the risk can even be minimized by putting it on the high ground.
Terran vs Protoss:
Probably reaper fast expansion into 4 marine widow mine drop to scout what Protoss is doing. There are tons of openings in TvP and tons of things Protoss can do. You really need to be on top of your game and good at reading Protoss if you don't want to fuck up. The reaper expand into reactormarines + mine drop is a good allrounder and can nearly defend anything. Blink might give you troubles but you could add tanks.
Terran vs Terran:
Right now MOST COMMON probably hellbatdrops or dual hellbat drops... but there are a ton of builds that are viable and around since WoL. Marine/Hellion drop, cloak banshee, tank push, proxy marauder etc. Personally I'd go for forGGs 15 gas fast expansion into reactor hellions and a starport.
To your second question:
TvZ usually is either Marine/Mine/Medivacs, if you have proper control or if you are not AS good, but still want to play such a style i ts marine/marauder/mine/medivac , as marauders help tank / slow banes etc. Does cost DPS is more expensive but a bit "saver".
This can also be used with the hellbat instead of the mines.
Marine/Tank is viable but people seem to prefer mines/hellbats.
TvP is different, its either like in WoL marine/marauder/medivac/ghost/viking or with the addition of hellbats against zealots, not much change there. Some people like Bunny like to play mech now.
TvT I feel shifted a lot towards mech as lots of people want to abuse/use the hellbat and its drop potential. Anti-mech is still whatever you choose. Bio, Biotank or Air.
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For me personally, but I hear the same from many others I meet on ladder, in TvT the issue isn't as much defending hellbat drops, but mainly just defending the frontal assault, and when they use boosted medivacs in the frontal assault it is really hard.
The problem there is that hellbats are strong, light units, and fairly large collision radius. The result is that they tank a gigantic amount of damage from siege tanks compared to bio. And when they can attack they also mow everything down. Which is a good reason to switch to mech.
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On June 06 2013 20:15 Sissors wrote:
For me personally, but I hear the same from many others I meet on ladder, in TvT the issue isn't as much defending hellbat drops, but mainly just defending the frontal assault, and when they use boosted medivacs in the frontal assault it is really hard.
The problem there is that hellbats are strong, light units, and fairly large collision radius. The result is that they tank a gigantic amount of damage from siege tanks compared to bio. And when they can attack they also mow everything down. Which is a good reason to switch to mech.
When opening with forgg's buildorder u will have more vikings then a hellbatdropper for sure, the further in the game the more vikings u will have. Helllbats dropping on your tanks can still happen, but your airsuperiority should be helpfull because u can freely scout ur surroundings+scans or just shoot them before they can even drop. I feel that airsuperiority and scanning constantly at that stage of the game is what decides if the hellbatdrops of the opponent are succesfull or not. Scouting/scanning constantly in combination with "to siege or not to siege" seems even more important in hots then it was in wol.
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THanks Naruto for that.
Is bio/marine tank still viable in TvT? I Feel that with hellbats.....bio is just going to be so easily demolished....
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On June 06 2013 23:25 ottoottoottootto wrote:
THanks Naruto for that.
Is bio/marine tank still viable in TvT? I Feel that with hellbats.....bio is just going to be so easily demolished....
Yup, definetely is. Against mech of course more marauders and tanks
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On June 06 2013 21:45 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 20:15 Sissors wrote:
For me personally, but I hear the same from many others I meet on ladder, in TvT the issue isn't as much defending hellbat drops, but mainly just defending the frontal assault, and when they use boosted medivacs in the frontal assault it is really hard.
The problem there is that hellbats are strong, light units, and fairly large collision radius. The result is that they tank a gigantic amount of damage from siege tanks compared to bio. And when they can attack they also mow everything down. Which is a good reason to switch to mech. When opening with forgg's buildorder u will have more vikings then a hellbatdropper for sure,
Forgg plays mech himself. Granted he uses more hellions than hellbats, but as soon as you have transformation servos you can use both.
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On June 07 2013 00:39 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 21:45 govie wrote:On June 06 2013 20:15 Sissors wrote:
For me personally, but I hear the same from many others I meet on ladder, in TvT the issue isn't as much defending hellbat drops, but mainly just defending the frontal assault, and when they use boosted medivacs in the frontal assault it is really hard.
The problem there is that hellbats are strong, light units, and fairly large collision radius. The result is that they tank a gigantic amount of damage from siege tanks compared to bio. And when they can attack they also mow everything down. Which is a good reason to switch to mech. When opening with forgg's buildorder u will have more vikings then a hellbatdropper for sure, Forgg plays mech himself. Granted he uses more hellions than hellbats, but as soon as you have transformation servos you can use both.
I thought that wasnt the question. I believe his post was a follow up post on earlier posts in this topic. Biggest problems i see with hellbatdrops as described is when they drop them on sieged tanks (mainetank or mech), were the AoE of the tanks makes them comit suicide or they get roflstomped during transformation..
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Hi TL,
In TvT I've been having moderate success (Mid-Masters) with a gas-first widow mine drop into cloaked banshee build that I nabbed off of byun & demuslim a while back. Edit: I now can't find a decent replay of either of them doing it. Trouble is,while it can get a great deal of damage done, I often struggle to macro effectively out of it and subsequently lose the edge gained. Could anyone recommend a decent build for the entire thing, or at least the part after you get up the 3CC? Ideally this would be for aiming towards marine/tank, involving adding on rax/addons, ebays etc.
Thanks!
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Stupid Question but how do people get pass level 30 as a terran because i maxed it out at 30 but i see people at like level 40+.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On June 07 2013 05:32 AnimePie wrote:
Stupid Question but how do people get pass level 30 as a terran because i maxed it out at 30 but i see people at like level 40+.
They play other races which add to the level.
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On June 07 2013 05:51 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 05:32 AnimePie wrote:
Stupid Question but how do people get pass level 30 as a terran because i maxed it out at 30 but i see people at like level 40+. They play other races which add to the level.
ok Thx
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Watching WCS right now and this got me thinking about air toss Protons where they go mass Void Rays like Alicia did against Losira. How the hell do you counter that? And please don't give a theoretical answer.. I'd like to see someone at a high level actually counter that. Because I don't think it's possible. Vikings can attempt to kite them but theoretically speaking, I think your Vikings need to consist of like your whole army, with no ground army to back them up. Ravens would work but they're an energy based unit so it takes forever to build that energy for Hunter Seeker Missiles.
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EPT
