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I just saw this game in IPL Fight Club, where Hyun takes his 14th win in a row against PartinG.
Honestly... this game is blowing my mind. The only thing that I can see PartinG doing at least some damage in this game would have been drops (which he didn't), but apart from that... well... here's the rundown of this ridiculous match:
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Standard ZvP Opening
Z takes 2 Gases at 44 supply, First Gas to Lair, then Ling Speed, Roach Warren and 1 Evo at around 60 supply, Macro Hatch, 2 more gasses at 65
P goes for standard immortal / sentry / Collossus third
Roach Speed, +1 ranged, switches at 8:00 to full unit production and a fourth seeing the 3rd from P
Z starts to poke and prod at the third at the 9:30 mark, provoking force fields and keeping P in his base.
Z stops unit production at 120 supply or 9:50, teching to infestors and droning up the 4th. Takes a fifth at 10:30 and taking gasses 7 and 8 at 10:45. Extra Evo. Only getting +1/+1 very very late at 11:30.
Immediately getting 9th and 10th gas, getting 9 Infestors with Glands and Burrow. Scouting with Overseers.
Maxing out at 13:00 with more lings and roaches, throws down Hive and Spire immediately on maxing out.
Let’s make this clear: He maxed out at 13:00 on +1+1+1 almost finished, 9 Infestors with Glands, max burrow Ling/Roach, Hive and Spire on the way, while being on 5 bases, 10 gas and 88 drones. Now compare that to a 11:30 Roach/Ling max.
He the proceeds to harass the third of P with mass infested terrans and roach/ling, destroying the third and retreating because he has 4k/2k banked, getting 12 Corruptors, Adrenal Glands, +2+2, and Greater Spire on the way. He also gets OL speed and Drops, which he never uses.
PartinG tries to counterattack because he lost the third, but he runs into said 12 Corruptors with his 5 Collossi, again Infested Terrans and any Roach Ling available. It’s downhill from there, of course.
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So... just let me know what you guys think of this game. As I see it, PartinG nerver really had a chance to punish Hyun for anything he did (namely getting up 5 bases AND high tech, because had PartiG moved out, Hyun just would have made more stuff instead of saturating bases, which he had enough time for because Hyun was camping at his base.
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this style is extremely potent vs protosses, but is quite reliant on doing some nice delaying of toss tech at the 3rd imo. It
might be a bit vulnerable to a few 3base timings tbh
edit: trading out supply might need to be a thing done with this build, but will have to be done with extreme caution imo
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Yeah I was blown away by this game as well. Hyun's macro is amazing.
I think one thing that helps him a lot is the fact that he delays upgrades and pours his resources into other things. That and... slightly better-than-average mechanics =P
Sabre, how would this be vulnerable to 3-base timings? He's max'd at 13:00...
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Well i guess thats exactly the point why it might be weak against 3 base "all inns". They hit slightly later than 13 min.
Lets assume a 3 collossus push (which is usualy bad btw). with hyuns style you cant trade supply and replace it whith some broods, unlees you got some realy nice delaying tactics as Sabre stated. It boils down to "160-180" supply toss with + 3 attack beats zerg without some broodlords".
However its kinda easy to delay since zerg almost gor full map control till the push out- + toss cant be always sure you dont play greedy along the way and get broods out. So he might not even go for the push.
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On December 07 2012 02:56 Maybe a Duck wrote:
Well i guess thats exactly the point why it might be weak against 3 base "all inns". They hit slightly later than 13 min.
Lets assume a 3 collossus push (which is usualy bad btw). with hyuns style you cant trade supply and replace it whith some broods, unlees you got some realy nice delaying tactics as Sabre stated. It boils down to "160-180" supply toss with + 3 attack beats zerg without some broodlords".
However its kinda easy to delay since zerg almost gor full map control till the push out- + toss cant be always sure you dont play greedy along the way and get broods out. So he might not even go for the push.
I don't understand what you mean by can't trade supply and replace it with broods. How is this any different from standard ZvP, except with less spines?
As far as delaying goes, that is Hyun's style - he's very aggressive/takes map control with his max'd army (sometimes overaggressive).
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I think the size of the map is one of the reasons that style was so strong - HyuN could easily counter attack and had vastly superior mobility in case PartinG went for a stronger 3-base pre-brood lord push. Also the fourth and fifth bases were extremely easy for HyuN to take and drone knowing that PartinG was going for a longer macro game.
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well parting did absolutely nothing in that game. is it that impossible to harass in WoL? if a zerg can do whatever he wants, it certainly looks like hyun's play here. hyun perfectly took advantage of parting's build choice and the large map.
still a very sick build by hyun.
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On December 07 2012 04:44 virpi wrote:
well parting did absolutely nothing in that game. is it that impossible to harass in WoL? if a zerg can do whatever he wants, it certainly looks like hyun's play here. hyun perfectly took advantage of parting's build choice and the large map.
still a very sick build by hyun.
Not impossible, but if you move out on the map your macro better be damn near perfect and your forcefields never out of place.
The more I study these builds, matches and other pro replays / analysis, the more I am getting a hunch that Roaches may be more of a problem than infestors in PvZ exclusively.
It's a little crazy that you can get this army SO EARLY, when protoss doesn't even come close in food unless going for some mass gate all in
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I think it's worth noting that parting did not have a decent wall at his 3rd base. When he lost his 3rd base he had a huge wall of force fields on the south-west side, but had nothing protecting his nexus on the east side. Had he made his 2 additional gateways blocking the east side, his nexus could have survived.
I do think with Hyun's forward army position, Parting would have been hard pressed to take out the 5th base. Double expanding when Protoss takes a 3rd is worth exploring.
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On December 07 2012 05:59 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 05:26 malaan wrote:On December 07 2012 04:44 virpi wrote:
well parting did absolutely nothing in that game. is it that impossible to harass in WoL? if a zerg can do whatever he wants, it certainly looks like hyun's play here. hyun perfectly took advantage of parting's build choice and the large map.
still a very sick build by hyun. Not impossible, but if you move out on the map your macro better be damn near perfect and your forcefields never out of place. The more I study these builds, matches and other pro replays / analysis, the more I am getting a hunch that Roaches may be more of a problem than infestors in PvZ exclusively. It's a little crazy that you can get this army SO EARLY, when protoss doesn't even come close in food unless going for some mass gate all in The problem in ZvP is a combination of the Colossus, sentry and Infestor Sentry makes early game crap Colossus makes mid game crap Infestor makes late game crap
Not really sentries are the only way to stay alive against somebody that outproduces you pretty easily in terms of army. But i agree with the rest. Colossi shred everything except for broodlords and infestor needs no explanation
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The build certainly looks good, the idea behind the constant pressure is effective and keeps the Protoss on his toes. However, to properly execute something like that you need to have extremely good mechanics and map awareness aswell as perfect decision making. While having such a forward position with your army, a single unscouted Prism or a one second distraction on your army could be game over.
I've tryed this the last 10 or so games and only pulled it off somewhat decent in one game, the other nine my macro slipped, or I lost a Prism flying around the map, or I got caught out of position while being near his bases. Seems to be quite a bit of work to get "into" this kind of build and playstyle. Quite frankly, I wouldn't advice it to learning players or anyone below GM.
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This seems strong, not because of the 13 minute with Infestors max (I am not close to Hyun, but I can max on a brood-infestor army by 14 mins), but because it seems shockingly safe vs a Toss that takes a third base relatively early.
Possibly this might struggle vs a really fast third into 13.5 minute 2-3 colossi push (obviously not possible to take the third so quickly all the time, but often it is)? Would there be time to get corruptors out for this? If so, I'm totally stealing this build.
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hyun is playing zvp like everyone should be playing. No wonder hes 2nd or maybe even the best zerg in korea.
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I think Rain's timing pushes and heavy harass play would murder a zerg being this greedy. Then again, not many people can emulate his style yet.
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That is absolutely sick. I don't think that the people criticizing this build really understand how hard pulling off something like that is when you are also harrassing your opponent, or how hard it would be for PartinG to really punish this. Also you absolutely cannot max on Brood Lord / Infestor at 14:00 while being safe against everything that toss can throw at you, which this build seems to be. The metagame in ZvP needs to move out of that FFE style that puts zero pressure on the Z for like 10 min because that shit is wrong in a game where you can spawn larva...
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
^Cant happen on current maps
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United States248 Posts
Hyun's build and macro is incredible, yes, but this specific build has very particular applications. Something like this will not work on many ladder maps, and almost none of the new kespa maps. Metropolis with no tight 3base timing lets the zerg do what he likes.
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On December 07 2012 05:26 malaan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:44 virpi wrote:
well parting did absolutely nothing in that game. is it that impossible to harass in WoL? if a zerg can do whatever he wants, it certainly looks like hyun's play here. hyun perfectly took advantage of parting's build choice and the large map.
still a very sick build by hyun. Not impossible, but if you move out on the map your macro better be damn near perfect and your forcefields never out of place. The more I study these builds, matches and other pro replays / analysis, the more I am getting a hunch that Roaches may be more of a problem than infestors in PvZ exclusively. It's a little crazy that you can get this army SO EARLY, when protoss doesn't even come close in food unless going for some mass gate all in
the roaches aren't the issue. the real problem is the fact that income in SC2 is retardedly high. Throw in queen macro mechanics and you've got the current metagame, where zergs get 80 drones a few minutes in and then pump out 100+ supply worth of units before anyone attacks. It makes me want to shoot myself, and I'm a zerg player.
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On December 07 2012 15:32 leb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 05:26 malaan wrote:On December 07 2012 04:44 virpi wrote:
well parting did absolutely nothing in that game. is it that impossible to harass in WoL? if a zerg can do whatever he wants, it certainly looks like hyun's play here. hyun perfectly took advantage of parting's build choice and the large map.
still a very sick build by hyun. Not impossible, but if you move out on the map your macro better be damn near perfect and your forcefields never out of place. The more I study these builds, matches and other pro replays / analysis, the more I am getting a hunch that Roaches may be more of a problem than infestors in PvZ exclusively. It's a little crazy that you can get this army SO EARLY, when protoss doesn't even come close in food unless going for some mass gate all in the roaches aren't the issue. the real problem is the fact that income in SC2 is retardedly high. Throw in queen macro mechanics and you've got the current metagame, where zergs get 80 drones a few minutes in and then pump out 100+ supply worth of units before anyone attacks. It makes me want to shoot myself, and I'm a zerg player.
I don't know if its income, but I wish zergs had to make macro hatches instead of queen injects. Its a great mechanic but the ability to make 20 drones in one go is ridiculous.
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On December 07 2012 15:32 leb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 05:26 malaan wrote:On December 07 2012 04:44 virpi wrote:
well parting did absolutely nothing in that game. is it that impossible to harass in WoL? if a zerg can do whatever he wants, it certainly looks like hyun's play here. hyun perfectly took advantage of parting's build choice and the large map.
still a very sick build by hyun. Not impossible, but if you move out on the map your macro better be damn near perfect and your forcefields never out of place. The more I study these builds, matches and other pro replays / analysis, the more I am getting a hunch that Roaches may be more of a problem than infestors in PvZ exclusively. It's a little crazy that you can get this army SO EARLY, when protoss doesn't even come close in food unless going for some mass gate all in the roaches aren't the issue. the real problem is the fact that income in SC2 is retardedly high. Throw in queen macro mechanics and you've got the current metagame, where zergs get 80 drones a few minutes in and then pump out 100+ supply worth of units before anyone attacks. It makes me want to shoot myself, and I'm a zerg player.
I'd love to see you holding any 3 base Protoss timing with a reactive 100+ supply of units, I'm especially curious about the reactive Infestors, Corruptors and Spines part. Or even better, the reactive 100 supply of Roach/Lings that holds any push that has forcefields. Could you please post a replay?
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On December 07 2012 10:16 Shikada wrote:
I think Rain's timing pushes and heavy harass play would murder a zerg being this greedy. Then again, not many people can emulate his style yet.
-_- did you even read the game description? I'm sick of people just saying 'yeah rain' like his Pre hive timings are untouchable, this hive is way earlier than usuall and hyun is the one doing the harassing
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On December 07 2012 01:28 Defenestrator wrote:
Yeah I was blown away by this game as well. Hyun's macro is amazing.
I think one thing that helps him a lot is the fact that he delays upgrades and pours his resources into other things. That and... slightly better-than-average mechanics =P
Sabre, how would this be vulnerable to 3-base timings? He's max'd at 13:00...
Primarily because roaches aren't particularly great against 3-base timings (because you no longer have a supply advantage at this point), and that's a big part of his max. he has to be using his roaches non-stop in small trades to keep protoss supply down.
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EPT
