EPT[D]ZvP Return of the Swarm-an infestor-less style - Page 3
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orBitual
United States96 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
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Kaz_Coaching
United States83 Posts
Between mutalisks, drops, and nydus it's possible to go for a high drone count and trade armies frequently. A key part of this would be getting overlord speed and using multiple overseers to always know where the enemy army is. With the mobility of zerg's army, opponents are hard pressed to do anything other then deathball push into spine/infestor. | ||
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
I have to say I been playing this game since forever and I've always challenged myself on not using the infestor but at the end of the day sadly everything else in the zerg army is just so cost inefficient. I'm finding more and more that your opponenet will dictate if you can or cant go infestors. for example terran goes mmm you pretty much should end up with infestors. Zerg goes mass roaches. Protoss goes blink stalkers (and pretty much everything else protoss does owns zergs units unless u have infestors at some point. What I've learnt from not using infestors in every match up and every game I pretty much play is that you can get away with it for awhile but eventually you wana get at least a few or you will be inappropriately abused by you opponent. I'm finding drops, as the OP mentioned, a useful tool for defending yourself mid game and getting to late game. bit of topic but the swarm host in HOTs is pretty nice to use instead of infestors and gets you to the late game occasionally. since they only cost 100 gas its a pretty nice transition. | ||
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VorGirL
72 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 27 2012 04:48 orBitual wrote: I think you need to play this more on ladder or something and get a greater corpus of replays. Otherwise you are just really showcasing that Solidluck is weak versus this style. There was not much variety in Solid's play, and on ladder you will run into more variety. What happens if they open phoenix, for example? Do you still try to drop? And I think you will see some more responsive protosses on ladder. Not all of them, obviously, but enough to highlight weaknesses in the strategy, which is something the current replays lack. I have tried this strategy beyond the replays shown with success. At first I actually used some infestor and ultra/hydra, but I found that ultra/hydra is nowhere near as good as bane/ultra, at least initially. These replays are the result of my progress on developing the strat so far, though I agree it can be refined. Vs stargate openers/phoenix, the game changes pretty dramatically, and I haven't worked out how I would respond with this style vs that kind of opener. Usually in this situation I go for aggressive roach/hydra play, which is very easy to transition into given the opener (which includes a hydra den mainly for immo/sentry and stargate openers). Drops are very risky vs phoenix openers due to his map control, as you imply. Roach/hydra openings, however, are very strong vs phoenix play, and you have generally have a nice window of vulnerability where you can attack the toss with this comp (I think there's a recent game with Hyun vs Parting that showcases this, for example). If you were to try to do this vs phoenix, I would probably suggest opening roach/hydra to stabilize/hopefully snipe the phoenix before transitioning to drop tech. If you're pushing with roach/hydra and dropping to get a favorable engagement, it can be useful, but I realize that all of this is theorycrafting. I will see if I can test it out in more depth, though I have limited time nowadays =/ It should be noted though that I think any opener that is not robo-based is at least a little vulnerable to roach/hydra timings; it's just that no one really does this nowadays so phoenix openers can do a lot of damage vs people who go infestor because of how much longer infestors take to get compared to hydras. Usually people at my level crumble with a good roach/hydra timing after phoenix. Also although Solid doesn't have a lot of variety in the replays shown, his play is very standard in the current meta (he does do a few other openers outside this). Most protoss I have played have styles similar to this. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 27 2012 05:30 Kaz_Coaching wrote: Nice write up Defenestrator. Glad to see you post it on TL. I think your hydralisk opener has the potential to play out with a ling muta transition as well. Zerg can sit on lair tech for a while and transition to muta/ling while mass expanding into spine infestor. I realize this isn't the way your guide plays out, but I think you've hit on a strong zerg opener that could be the basis for many strategies. Thanks Kaz. This is exactly the point! I mainly hope for this guide to serve as a starting point rather than an authoritative guide on the style (I'm nowhere near a level necessary to be able to do that). Given the responses I think it's much better that I put a "[D]" tag instead of "[G]" =P As you say, out of the opener there are many possible transitions. I've highlighted my favorite one, but I also use this opener to transition into 3base muta/roach/ling play and sometimes hydra, depending on the protoss opener. There are also things that I think can be refined here with this style; one is adding a 3rd evo at hive to start going for +1ranged earlier for a roach-based transition, so by the time you trade off your first army you're nearing +2 with your ranged. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 27 2012 04:50 MstrJinbo wrote: This is entirely theorycrafting, but have you tried getting a spire some point in the midgame for just a couple mutalisks to hunt down warp prisms and observers. For all the talk of carriers, Warp prisms are really scary for this style and Denying scouting can only be a good thing, and it also gives you the option to go broodlord later on instead of ultras. At the very least the Protoss has to account for potential broodlords and not try to hard counter ultras. I haven't tried this out; usually when I go muta I throw out drops. There're a few guides on using muta/ling with drop floating around TL. The main issue with this is the gas requirement and tech delay, and I think getting ultras early on is very important. You also generally want all your gas for ultra/bane to be able to engage him directly. There may be room for mutas here, but I'm not sure what the best timing would be. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On November 27 2012 06:06 Defenestrator wrote: I haven't tried this out; usually when I go muta I throw out drops. There're a few guides on using muta/ling with drop floating around TL. The main issue with this is the gas requirement and tech delay, and I think getting ultras early on is very important. You also generally want all your gas for ultra/bane to be able to engage him directly. There may be room for mutas here, but I'm not sure what the best timing would be. imo going drop with muta is pretty pointless since if defending muta and defending drops takes the same type of defense/positioning. | ||
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GlintFox
United States275 Posts
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Asukurra
United Kingdom50 Posts
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GhostNuker
1 Post
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Tropical Bob
United States127 Posts
Not to mention that basically everything Protoss beats Ultralisks in one form or another. Blink Stalkers out-kite them. Zealots block, tank, and DPS them. Archons do the same. Immortals do the same without having to actually take any damage since they have range 6. In a roundabout way, High Templar even counter Ultralisks because the Storm will clear all Ultralisks' support in just a couple seconds. I think this game is quite a prime example of why nobody uses this composition. Leenock versus HasuObs on Tal'Darim Altar. Leenock gets up to 4-5 bases, smashes waves of Ling/Bling/Ultra into HasuObs's army and third and does basically nothing until HasuObs gets enough units to just win. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 27 2012 09:27 Tropical Bob wrote: I think this game is quite a prime example of why nobody uses this composition. Leenock versus HasuObs on Tal'Darim Altar. Leenock gets up to 4-5 bases, smashes waves of Ling/Bling/Ultra into HasuObs's army and third and does basically nothing until HasuObs gets enough units to just win. Thanks for this rep. I think it's a good vid of how to counter this style, but given that, there're some subtle differences in my style that I think can make a difference with correct play. I love Leenock, and he could beat me with one hand tied behind his back, mouse-only, but there're some things I'd like to point out about this game. 1. HasuObs harassment was fairly successful, and he's able to pick off like 6 infestors completely for free. I would argue that he should be ahead at that point in the game given such large pickups early-on, even though his 3rd was late. 2. I don't agree with Leenock's decision to build THAT MANY ultras, especially vs a turtling toss (he has like 10). I would much rather have that gas for banes. He has <20 banes at any one time; you need a lot of banelings and only a few ultras to get in to connect which is why I prefer to get 40-60+. Once again, going (and losing) infestors cuts into this number significantly... 6 infestors is 36 banes. 3. He continually sacrifices good chunks of his army to kill HasuObs 3rd without actually doing any damage to HasuObs army. This keeps him in the game, but HasuObs is able to be very cost-efficient because he engages so well. 4. He uses ultras for "harass" at the 3rd and 4th. Ultras are not a harass unit by any means IMO; they should always be with heavy support. Harass can be done with lings, roaches, or banes (especially with drop). 5. When HasuObs transitions to heavy archon, Leenock just stays on ultra/ling/bane. Vs archon/colo, you need something else, like ultra/hydra or infestors with NP if you want to tackle this army on the ground. At this point I would probably go 3-4 ultras backed by some roach/hydra and try to keep the ultras in front of the roaches, but really he is already behind due to throwing away so many units so cost-inefficiently. 6. No drops. Drops could have opened up a ton of holes for HasuObs, especially on a map like this. I realize HasuObs opens phoenix, but even if he's able to elevator some of his army into HasuObs main, that opens up a lot more ways for Leenock to get a favorable engagement. What I would think would be better than what he did was to instead of engaging at the 3rd, drop 2 ultras with some lings into HasuObs' main while hitting with his remaining ultra/bane army at his 3rd. This would have been MUCH harder to defend. As a minor point, I think Leenock could have sent half his army up the 3rd ramp and half up the natural ramp to get a good angle on HasuObs. This requires really good control and timing, and I'm not sure how well it would work (HasuObs still has a nice defender's advantage), but I think it would work better than what Leenock ended up doing. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
On November 27 2012 09:27 Tropical Bob wrote: I used to do Ling/Bling/Infestor/Ultralisk for a while, but it just stopped working as Protoss started to macro. Until they move out on the map, and sometimes even then, you can't really touch them because of the way bases and maps are choked up these days. Your Ling/Ultra just can't get the required surface area it needs and one good Colossus swipe or Storm ends all your Banelings uselessly. Not to mention that basically everything Protoss beats Ultralisks in one form or another. Blink Stalkers out-kite them. Zealots block, tank, and DPS them. Archons do the same. Immortals do the same without having to actually take any damage since they have range 6. In a roundabout way, High Templar even counter Ultralisks because the Storm will clear all Ultralisks' support in just a couple seconds. I think this game is quite a prime example of why nobody uses this composition. Leenock versus HasuObs on Tal'Darim Altar. Leenock gets up to 4-5 bases, smashes waves of Ling/Bling/Ultra into HasuObs's army and third and does basically nothing until HasuObs gets enough units to just win. The game you stated was the most ridiculous game I've seen in a very, very long time. Holy christ Protoss stuff is... well... good. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On November 28 2012 08:20 Mahtasooma wrote: The game you stated was the most ridiculous game I've seen in a very, very long time. Holy christ Protoss stuff is... well... good. Rofl. Ok, maybe thats why all ZvP games have to rely on... gglords. But, maybe if leenock did play more with banes drops and less with mass ultra, he would have been in a better shape... Dunno Also, the creep spread from leenock is very baaaaaaaaaaad. With a good creespread, his army would be sooo faster. It would have been better for engages. Also, protecting the colossi behind the army makes the trades always bad for leenock. Hopefully in hots, with vipers you'll be able to destroy colossi without any corruptor. | ||
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Nasreth
United States48 Posts
I believe drops, hydralisk, and banelings are an incredibly powerful style that has yet to be exploited in the current metagame. Protoss players are (imo) unable to defend 2-3 prongs of aggression on 3 bases with only 1-2 colossi, which is when your hydra drop timing should be hitting. With a massive roach/ling army threatening his third and 12-16 hydras in his main, you're pretty much guaranteed to do some sort of damage whether economic, army, or tech based. During this time you can be creating a baneling nest, upgrading melee, and grabbing a 5th base while feeling relatively safe due to a larger army that is poised to surround him should he move out, and drops to keep him from leaving for fear of crippling damage. I have also found that this style with baneling drops is incredibly powerful against 16 minute colossus timings. Even when you get hydralisk, you still have time to max out on roach/baneling, and with your drop tech you can simply ruin his army the moment he overextends into your third or 4th base. The most important thing is that you set up a flank to ensure he has to forcefield his army in for your banelings To be honest, I haven't had a lot of experience with this style post lair. Most of my games end due to the high aggression it brings to the table, and while I might end up with 5+ bases by the end of the game and my main and natural mined out, the Protoss player will rarely have time to tech past archons. It is incredibly difficult for Protoss to secure a 4th base with this style, since the drops are keeping him contained, and moving out into the open leaves him vulnerable to the rest of your army. I personally don't like to go for ultralisk, I will grab 1-4 infestors and then slowly tech into broodlords if protoss gives me time, and use the infestors to lock his army down for my baneling drops if he leaves his base. That said, I think this midgame style leaves a lot of options in the late game and hydras should certainly not be discounted. The biggest weakness to this style, in my opinion, is the APM cost. You can always do more - spread creep better, set up more drops, hit your injects better, etc. This style is very apm intensive due to the apm required to make lings into banelings, load them into overlords, constantly scout your opponent, and make the correct units in response. This leaves little time for you to focus on your basic macro mechanics, and I will often find myself floating thousands of resources after a big battle with not enough larvae to make the units that I want. I think if this style was executed by a better player with experience in drops and multipronged aggression it would be undefeatable | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
The drop play and multipronged attacks also let you trade off some units for his. We all know that toss gets stronger as time goes on; it's generally a good idea to trade off units with them so they can't get to that "deathball" status. Delaying that deathball until you have units to deal with his is the idea behind dropping. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
Here're 3 replays against masters toss players (not SolidLuck this time): http://drop.sc/280467 - Really fun, pretty close game. For people asking about the archon/immo/temp counter, I think this is a decent showcase. My opponent was a little used to my style by now so he played against it fairly well I think, but I manage to pull it out in the end. Drops get handled pretty well, though they set him off-kilter a little, and they allow me to take 5 bases. I transition to ultra/bane and attack into strong positions at his 3rd, trading decently while taking a lot of bases. Seeing a lot of archon/immo, I remax on roach/hydra. In retrospect, I should have put in 1 more ultra along with some more banes to soften up his army, with slightly less roach. Some of my engagements aren't great; I don't really flank (really would be useful) and I sit under some storms, but eventually I'm able to overwhelm with ultra/ling/bane/hydra and some roach. http://drop.sc/280468 - On Cloud Kingdom. This is a fairly one-sided game (he forgot warp gate =( ), but I wanted to show the last two engagements, which should have been very favorable for him. He has 5 archons, 7 immortals, and 2 colossi vs ultra/bane in a pretty narrow choke. He manages to chew through a lot of my army, but once again at the end it's just not enough and I clean up against what is basically the hard-counter to my army comp. Mass banes = good. http://drop.sc/280469 - On Cloud Kingdom again. This was not a particularly well-played game on either side, but I include this one because he has a mothership with vortex, as well as some archons in his army. I engage a 4-colossi 3-archon/stalker/sentry deathball army with 9 ultras (I got a little ultra-happy this game) and 66 banes. Result: 8 ultras left. Archons are nice, but in an open field vs that many banes it's not nearly enough. He also vortexes me later on, but I just send in all my banes and my ultras in. I lose some banes carelessly when the vortex ends, but he wisely keeps most of his forces out of the vortex (since he knew he'd lose them). I have, of course, lost with this strategy as well, but I feel like it's usually some error on my part (late drops/ultras so I die to a 3-base timing or something). I'll also include some analysis of some GSL games from the pvz guide thread from players using similar styles in the OP. | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
If you look at that daybreak game, the protoss player does this weird warp prism thing that gets completely shut down with no discernable gain for the toss player, then he reacts very badly to your drops+aggression and loses a lot more than he should. For the rest of the game he makes far too many stalkers instead of zealots or immortals and repeatedly refuses to move his collosus out of ultralisk splash damage. It seems like a better player with a safer opening would have come out slightly more ahead than he did with each engagement. If he can make sure the part of his army left standing after each battle is the high tech stuff then gradually he can build up a ball of collo/immo/archon which eventually will roll over anything on the ground. The game really just looked like you straight up outplayed him. If you have a replay of you winning against a safer player who cleans up the drops relatively well i'd love to see it. I'm just not convinced it can really win against a protoss who takes more care of their high-tech units. This probably wont stop me trying out though ^^ I've tried ultra/bane before and had some success and some failure but your addition of the tech switches to deal with immo/archon compositions is really cool and makes zvp seem more fun to play again. The lack of infestors is interesting, it seems like you'd probably want to get them at some point just because neural and fungal is so good with this style but the question is when and how many? | ||
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