EPTIf you want to win lategame WoL, you have to go broodlord/infestor. There is no other way
.Sadly HOTS isn't shaping up to change this.
[D]ZvP Return of the Swarm-an infestor-less style - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
If you want to win lategame WoL, you have to go broodlord/infestor. There is no other way .Sadly HOTS isn't shaping up to change this. | ||
|
Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
And there is NOTHING u can do against a mothership with ultra bane infestors... Unless you get a lucky NP you shouldnt get, think about it for a second : if you fight with ur melee army, he'll vortex half of it, rape the other half. I think you cant split your army like you would split your broodlord army, because, well, you need to attack with everything at the same time and your army is melee!! If your army shoots from afar, you can kind of dodge vortex (split) and fight at the same time. With ultras, you can flank etc, but at some point it will come down to a big a-move and if it comes to that you cant dodge a vortex. You would basically have to make a ton of corruptor and suicide them against the mothership, which is the so-bad way of dealing with it Z first tried when mothership appeared. Ironically, it took the broodlord abuse to make protosses realise how good mothership is. But I think melee composition are gone forever in zvp because of vortex. Hope i made myself clear. Good afternoon  | ||
|
Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
- avoids stepping into the open so he controls which angle the engagement comes from - leave a thin screen of zealots in front of his army and takes a step back with the ranged units (either by micro or if he has charge, a-move can work too) - drops storm on banelings and target fire with colossus - warp in mass zealot for fighting ultra-ling, preferably at a warp prism in the dead centre of the battle, not at a pylon half a screen away if you are really skipping infestors, I'd expect to see them zealot bombing your banelings as well. The thin zealot screen turns around the battle so drastically, it's not even funny. You'd think that the banelings counter zealots, but still they hang up the ultralisks just long enough and waste just enough banelings that it goes from being a complete massacre for zerg to a complete massacre for protoss. it's a simple matter of army positioning. You really do need to flank, and a lot of this depends on the protoss making himself vulnerable by moving into a bad position without being aware of your army movements. If you include baneling dropping (which is also amazing) you are much less vulnerable to storms because your banelings have 200hp, but more vulnerable to simply being kited - you still need infestors. you lose a lot of the mobility which is the strength of the style. Ironically, it took the broodlord abuse to make protosses realise how good mothership is. But I think melee composition are gone forever in zvp because of vortex. I think the best thing you can do is to just dive into the vortex to wait it out, and have your banelings on a hotkey so that you can spam move command to prevent autodetonation on an archon (depending on whether or not he stuffs the vortex I guess). I don't know if it ends favourably or not. The problem is that vortex makes it impossible to flank him, and that's a big problem. Like every other ultralisk based composition, you should use a nydus worm to bring queens along as well. | ||
|
Insoleet
France1806 Posts
whereas with the broods, its so slow and long to build that the protoss can just take all the bases from his side of the map. | ||
|
Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
I started using some of my idle Hydras in my drops for the dps, if I'd made them to hold off early aggression- they chew through probes One thing I noticed was the banes and ultras share movespeed, and they just wash over the opposing army like a wave. Very cool. | ||
|
SeinGalton
South Africa387 Posts
On November 26 2012 23:33 Insoleet wrote: I think most of the criticism here forgot something. this army is very fast. it means you can have a lot of bases and deny the protoss ones. with a lot of macro hatcheries, you can lose your first straight up fight against the protoss but destroy him with your insta repop 2nd army. whereas with the broods, its so slow and long to build that the protoss can just take all the bases from his side of the map. Yeah this is a very important point, I think; In my modest experience with this style, it very much operates on a one-two punch kind of engagement. You'll lose most of your banes and lings in the first fight, and probably a few ultras too. After Ultra spawn times were decreased in a previous patch, this kind of engagement logic became viable, and it's very rare for me to take the game on the first engagement. Which is why I like to call it a Neo-Sauron style - after the first engagement you just keep on flooding with cheap, quick units and hit as many locations as possible. | ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 26 2012 22:57 Natalya wrote: Hey everyone, high master Z here. I've tried to play like about 10 games with those melee upgraded units, and what i've found, as a great surprise, is that the vortex is totally undodge-able with this unit composition. I didnt use roach hydra midgame because there is no reason to not go ling only midgame, and as soon as protosses saw ling upgrades + infestors, they assumed i was going broods. Then they got a mothership. And there is NOTHING u can do against a mothership with ultra bane infestors... Unless you get a lucky NP you shouldnt get, think about it for a second : if you fight with ur melee army, he'll vortex half of it, rape the other half. I think you cant split your army like you would split your broodlord army, because, well, you need to attack with everything at the same time and your army is melee!! If your army shoots from afar, you can kind of dodge vortex (split) and fight at the same time. With ultras, you can flank etc, but at some point it will come down to a big a-move and if it comes to that you cant dodge a vortex. You would basically have to make a ton of corruptor and suicide them against the mothership, which is the so-bad way of dealing with it Z first tried when mothership appeared. Ironically, it took the broodlord abuse to make protosses realise how good mothership is. But I think melee composition are gone forever in zvp because of vortex. Hope i made myself clear. Good afternoon This is pretty surprising to me. It has been awhile, but last time I've played against this I sent banelings into the vortex and cleaned up pretty easily. Did you send banelings into the vortex? Depending on the engagement, it's probably best to also send your whole army in or just not engage with half your army and just send banelings in (if he sends in his forces). | ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 26 2012 21:04 Flonomenalz wrote: I watched the game against SolidLuck. I know you asked not to berate too harshly upon the play of your opponents, but when you post a strategy, you have to demonstrate viability against high level play. This is not high level play. His pre-Hive push comes at 17 minutes, and then he decides not to commit to it and take a 4th base on 7 gate ways, no mothership tech, late templar... and gets crushed. You could have even gotten BL tech if you wanted instead of Ultras against such a late push, which ruins the entire point of the strat since the selling point is supposed to be the faster availability of ultra/ling/bane against the pre-Hive push, rather than the slower BL/tech due to the cost of Infestors. Symbol made this work a few times but... I can't see it as a solid style unless you know without a doubt your opponent is committing to a 3 base push. Protosses that take a fast 4th after fending off your drops can murder this with a chargelot archon HT transition. Taking a 4th on most maps is very tough vs this composition. There will almost certainly be vulnerabilities in his bases which allow you to either get a good flank or attack him where his army is not, doing damage. This is a very high-DPS, fast composition. It is not, however, the BEST siege-breaking army comp you can use (BL's are the best siege unit in the Z army, of course). The typical way Z has been played up in the past though is to bait his army on one side with some forces, or just know where he is and attack where he's not, then move back when he comes to engage or use him moving out of position favorably. It requires a lot of creativity and aggression IMO that is largely absent from today's BL/infestor. No question that I do get very favorable engagements in some of the games, and yes they're not at the highest level (not from my side either, mind you), which is one reason for the [D] tag =P With cleaner play I would use a lot more flanks and drops than I do. Also he could have pushed with everything instead of taking a 4th, but one reason he is slowed down is the drop play (which is the point). I can't say how much this would slow down a pro, and it can leave you vulnerable to a pre-hive timing. Also, the strat is map-dependent. This will not work nearly as well on a map like CK vs Daybreak or Ohana, where the bases are more spread out. And on your criticism: I just was hoping to avoid "well that toss was a total noob" type of comments. Your post is more constructive than that =) | ||
|
NeonFox
2373 Posts
It works great, you hit your ultra army around 15:00 at most and infestors keep you safe from anything before that. But if the nerf of fungal not working against psionic passes it won't work anymore. Not fungaling sentries is huge. | ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 26 2012 23:03 Oboeman wrote: here's what protoss players can do against ultra-bane that always gave me trouble: - avoids stepping into the open so he controls which angle the engagement comes from - leave a thin screen of zealots in front of his army and takes a step back with the ranged units (either by micro or if he has charge, a-move can work too) - drops storm on banelings and target fire with colossus - warp in mass zealot for fighting ultra-ling, preferably at a warp prism in the dead centre of the battle, not at a pylon half a screen away if you are really skipping infestors, I'd expect to see them zealot bombing your banelings as well. The thin zealot screen turns around the battle so drastically, it's not even funny. You'd think that the banelings counter zealots, but still they hang up the ultralisks just long enough and waste just enough banelings that it goes from being a complete massacre for zerg to a complete massacre for protoss. it's a simple matter of army positioning. You really do need to flank, and a lot of this depends on the protoss making himself vulnerable by moving into a bad position without being aware of your army movements. If you include baneling dropping (which is also amazing) you are much less vulnerable to storms because your banelings have 200hp, but more vulnerable to simply being kited - you still need infestors. you lose a lot of the mobility which is the strength of the style. I think the best thing you can do is to just dive into the vortex to wait it out, and have your banelings on a hotkey so that you can spam move command to prevent autodetonation on an archon (depending on whether or not he stuffs the vortex I guess). I don't know if it ends favourably or not. The problem is that vortex makes it impossible to flank him, and that's a big problem. Like every other ultralisk based composition, you should use a nydus worm to bring queens along as well. Good points. Definitely agree on the zealot thing; zeals make this a lot more complex due to naturally spacing out the protoss army and being fairly good vs ultras. At a high level I think infestors may be necessary in small numbers for a couple of key fungals, but I think you can make up for this via flanking. On OL drops: this style, because you have a lot of gas (each infestor is worth 6 banelings), you can get A LOT of banelings. I think in one of the replays posted I get 60+. With this many, you can load some into overlords (8-12) and keep the rest with your main army, and focus micro'ing the ones for drops to add to your attack. I do not have the micro to do this but in this way you don't really lose the mobility you are referring to with this comp while forcing him to deal with another part of your force. Also with so many banelings, you will kill anything that goes into a vortex with them. It has been a long time since I've done this (not sure if it was pre- or post-patch, I believe post-patch), but this includes archons with enough banes. Has anyone done this more recently? I'll see if I can address this in a unit tester later, but I feel like the data is out there on this. | ||
|
KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
| ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 26 2012 23:48 SeinGalton wrote: Yeah this is a very important point, I think; In my modest experience with this style, it very much operates on a one-two punch kind of engagement. You'll lose most of your banes and lings in the first fight, and probably a few ultras too. After Ultra spawn times were decreased in a previous patch, this kind of engagement logic became viable, and it's very rare for me to take the game on the first engagement. Which is why I like to call it a Neo-Sauron style - after the first engagement you just keep on flooding with cheap, quick units and hit as many locations as possible. Yeah that's the idea. BL/festor is probably the best comp for direct engagements, but very slow and very slow to reinforce. On November 27 2012 01:31 KingAlphard wrote: Sorry but I am quite skeptical. You have no anti-air in your army. Personally if I saw this I would just switch to full air with 4-5 stargates carriers+void rays. You said you can go hydra, but I can ensure you that hydra are easily countered with 2-3 colossi or some HTs in the composition. Corruptors against carriers are also a bad idea, some archons/HTs will clean them up easily. The only good zerg's AA is infestor, because they can either fungal void rays from the distance and trade infested terrans (free) for interceptors (paid). With correct play I don't see how you could have time to get this composition. It is on the Z player to force engagements. Such a strat requires a 4th, introducing some vulnerabilities in your bases, which the Z player is responsible for identifying and exploiting. Walls are of small consequence to this army if there is no army there; ultras and banes chew through walls in seconds. Also if a Z players sees this, he can react accordingly. Obviously you shouldn't stay on ultra/ling/bane if your opponent has VR/carrier =P This style does require good scouting on Z's part, especially if he makes the (easier) switch to immo/archon/temp. | ||
|
Insoleet
France1806 Posts
| ||
|
syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
| ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#4.1 They're really thorough and address a lot of how to counter what I discuss here, and at a much higher level. On November 27 2012 03:07 syriuszonito wrote: This is a fun style to play and thats pretty much it. You can never be aggresive with you army other than drops (which a good player will deflect) because ultralisk/ling/bane simply countered by a wall. Whats most likely gonna happen is toss camping on 3 or 4 bases building the army of doom that will absolutely stomp you Can they really stop you from breaking through walls, especially if you split your army? Ultra/bane destroys walls, especially with a lot of banes. Turtling on 4base is not very easy when you bring the brunt of your army to where the toss player is not. You have a lot more mobility than he does. And also I guess I'm okay with it just being a fun style to play =P That's mostly the point; also given the current meta, I think it can be a pretty good ladder style. For example I never could pull a game off of SolidLuck going BL/festor because 1. I'm not very good with the comp and 2. he's faced it a billion times and plays against it very well. Strats outside the current meta can be very strong if well-executed because your opponent is not used to them. This is far from an endorsement of how "good" the strat is at a pro level, though. With respect to tournament play, I can see the vulnerability of something like this as being your main style. Toss can just blind-counter it if they know it's coming, something that's not as possible with BL/festor (there is no (timely) hardcounter). You can still recover and react if you see what he's doing in time, but it's more difficult. However, I think it's possible to mix this in with the typical BL/festor in a few games. | ||
|
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Another aspect that makes this strategy stronger than it appears on first glance is that the midgame from the Protoss perspective is constantly defending ling-bling harassment, so Protoss winds up focusing on producing gateway units and colossi. When the ultras pop, Protoss really wants to have 5 or 6 immortals to provide DPS while the zealots tank, but since Protoss doesn't produce immortals in mid-game, the ultras have great survivability and do a ton of damage in the first ultra-push. Protoss could adapt by starting immortal production earlier, but (1) it would be harder to deal with the ling-bling phase, and (2) Protoss would be in worse shape against a BL transition which is much more common and is equally well-supported by double melee upgrades in mid-game. | ||
|
chris2423
31 Posts
i would propose that a ling/infestor/corruptor army accomplishes what u are trying to do, only better. with it, the gas u save on banelings goes into air upgrades and allows for later broodlords than the current meta, and when u get them they are well upgraded and dont get pewpew'd by stalkers. also, u say walls arent great, and although thats true, ultras are only effective in open spaces. if his army is there, your gonna get crushed. if his army is elsewhere, its probably in your base and id hate to be baseracing if half my army was made up of banelings. if he goes late late game carriers, i cant imagine you being able to counter that. u have no range or air upgrades, and no infestors. 2/0 carriers will beat 0/0 corruptors. in the current meta that toss builds up a semi-deathball and pushes before broodlords, i can see u hitting your ultras before he gets there and cleaning him up, and then having an advantage and winning the game, but if he instead takes a 4th and plays for the late game, thats where u run into trouble. in comparison, ling/infestor/corruptor can attack into a turtling protoss with infested terran spam, and with swarms of lings theres no chance of losing your infestors and lings are dirt cheap to rebuild, and anything he had in the air dies to corruptors before they go on home to become broodlords at a later date. and instead of standard broodlord infestor where u are super immobile and cant rebuild, staying with a zergling heavy army and not getting too many broods, your army isnt that expensive and if u take a bad fight, u just revert back to ling/infestor/corruptor, or u can even pop 30 mutas if he doesnt have an answer to it since u can easily afford double spire upgrades with ling/infestor/corruptor, as opposed to broodlords where u are lucky if u can keep a single spire upgrading unless u are maxed and you are both just derping around like...well...im not going out there... | ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 27 2012 03:56 chris2423 wrote: also, u say walls arent great, and although thats true, ultras are only effective in open spaces. if his army is there, your gonna get crushed. if his army is elsewhere, its probably in your base and id hate to be baseracing if half my army was made up of banelings. if he goes late late game carriers, i cant imagine you being able to counter that. u have no range or air upgrades, and no infestors. 2/0 carriers will beat 0/0 corruptors. in the current meta that toss builds up a semi-deathball and pushes before broodlords, i can see u hitting your ultras before he gets there and cleaning him up, and then having an advantage and winning the game, but if he instead takes a 4th and plays for the late game, thats where u run into trouble. I don't know much about ling/festor/corruptor style, and I'm also a big believer in multiple viable strats, at least up through the high pro level. It seems like ling/festor/corruptor is pretty viable, but it's a little fragile for my tastes. As far as your wall comment, you don't have to baserace him, but you do have to have map control. If he moves out to basetrade you, you can get a pretty favorable engagement and most likely crush his army (also your army is really fast; can't really do this with BL's). His likely army composition at this point in the game is only good if you're trying to break through a wall with him sitting in the back. Otherwise it's fine to engage. Also it's very tough to take a 4th, as discussed before. It's important to not let him get up a 4th easily and at least trade off some units, buying you time for a transition, if necessary. This strat relies on a lot of aggression and hitting on multiple fronts; you absolutely cannot sit on this army. However, on 4 bases I don't think there is any way he will be able to defend on all fronts vs your fast max'd army without you being able to force some decent engagements. When this does happen to me, I just concede that my opponent outplayed me and I'm pretty okay with losing games like that =P | ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 27 2012 03:48 kcdc wrote: I think this strategy is pretty good. One thing that should be noted regarding baneling vs storm is that if Protoss has a good number of templar, he has a lot of zealots and a low stalker count. This means he has little AA, so you can safely drop banelings from OL's, which protects them from storms. It requires a lot of APM to constantly cycle banelings in and out of OL's, but if you have the APM, it keeps banelings useful after storm comes online. Another aspect that makes this strategy stronger than it appears on first glance is that the midgame from the Protoss perspective is constantly defending ling-bling harassment, so Protoss winds up focusing on producing gateway units and colossi. When the ultras pop, Protoss really wants to have 5 or 6 immortals to provide DPS while the zealots tank, but since Protoss doesn't produce immortals in mid-game, the ultras have great survivability and do a ton of damage in the first ultra-push. Protoss could adapt by starting immortal production earlier, but (1) it would be harder to deal with the ling-bling phase, and (2) Protoss would be in worse shape against a BL transition which is much more common and is equally well-supported by double melee upgrades in mid-game. Good points; the drops make it harder to transition to templar quickly, and this strat was developed with the current meta in mind. And as you say, while I don't use BL's much, I think they're a potential transition after a drop-heavy midgame. I can't really comment on this too much, the transitions are not going to be as smooth as infestor/spine styles, but the style forces toss to respond correctly as well. | ||
|
Melaine
United States56 Posts
On November 26 2012 22:38 Aterons_toss wrote: Ahm... what is exactly the point in not using infestors ? Because this style isn't very safe compared to roach into infestor ones and even statistically blord infestor will pretty much obliterate anything late game and will defend most of the time against 3 base pushes if done correctly. I can see this being better vs certain immortal-less and archon-less 3 base pushes like the colossus blink stalker thingy but it's very situational. It's just people are on the crying rant on infestors and are jumping and assuming the test map nerfs to infestor will go live. This kind of play is very weak vs any decent protoss, and infestors are still zergs backbone. To any new player reading this I suggest stick to normal infestor play and ignore the QQ rants as most of it is non sense. There is a reason this does not work in 2012, these old 2010 styles will never work vs a protoss with common sense. | ||
| ||
