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StimmedProbe's 5 Factory Mech TvP
Last Update: October 26th, 2012
Marines and Marauders are gone!
![[image loading]](http://starcraft-2-strategy.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/siege-tank.jpg) "Not quite like it's brood war predecessor, but still quite potent if used right!"
Basic Idea:
Hey everyone StimmedProbe here again with another build that I have been having a lot of success with. Bio is frustrating to use vs protoss. You have to make sure your engagement is exactly correct. If you are out of position, miss a few emps or get behind in upgrades you can lose easily, not to mention your army control has to be crisp. Mech is a little bit more forgiving in terms of control, but requires equal or perhaps more decision making and you need good multi-tasking to execute the build below. Players of all levels can find success with the build, but it will be most effective in the hands of a masters or grand-masters player. This build starts out with a fast expansion and then is followed up with banshee harass while building up a strong hellion/tank army off 5 factories. This is a 2 base timing attack, but it is not all-in.
Build Order:
10 Depot
12 Rax
15 Marine + Orbital
16 CC on low ground
Large Maps/No Pressure coming -> Cut Marines at 1, double gas, depot, bunker
Small Maps/Pressure coming -> Constant Marines, Depot, double gas, bunker
You can watch the replays to see the slightly different openings I do on Ohana and Antiga.
@100 gas -> Factory (4:30 if you got double gas before depot, 5:00 if you got a depot before double gas)
2nd bunker (Make sure you have at least 8 marines, or you will lose to a sentry bust, spread the bunkers out a bit if possible)
3rd gas
@100% Factory -> Starport + 4th gas
Tech lab on factory -> Swap starport onto tech lab
Banshee + Cloak + 3rd bunker if needed
Tech lab on factory -> siege tank/siege mode (this helps you survive counter-attacks, make sure your tanks are setup in nice positions)
Finally, 4 more factories (3 tech labs, 1 reactor, ~8:30)
Follow-up:
If you do everything right at 10 minutes you should have the following (assuming no real pressure):
- 2 banshees with cloak done (1 harassing, the other on the way)
- 70-80 supply
- 2-3 bunkers full of marines
- 5 factories (4 tech labs, 1 reactor) , 1 starport (tech lab)
- 45-50 scvs, 4 refineries
Other things to note:
- After making two banshees, make a raven. This will allow your raven to store up 150-200 energy for your push. Resume banshee pumping.
- Pump tanks/hellions out of your factories. Prioritize tanks, but you will have to make hellions sometimes.
- Harass with your banshees -> use them to scout a possible stargate.
- When you have 400 minerals, make a 3rd cc (around 12 mins)
- Get blue flame a minute before you move out.
- Move out at around 13-14 mins and bring some scvs along for repairs.
The attack:
Bigger Picture: http://i.imgur.com/AaWyB.jpg
Notice how I killed only 3 workers, but i am 40 supply ahead. And this is not weaksauce 40 army supply like roaches or marines/mauds this is 40 supply in MECH up! This is not because of macro skill differences either, my opponent is a top 16 grandmaster!
Your goal now is to get into a nice position and use your banshees and hellions like your octopus arms and the seige tanks as the core home base. Leap frog your tanks if you need to. Make sure you cloak your banshees, and use the pdd when the battle begins. Try not to get caught un-sieged by scanning ahead. You can put your banshees with your main army, or you can send them off to harass a weak position. Very few protoss know how to split their army against a mech push + 4 banshees harassing I found. 4 banshees are much stronger than a 1 medivac drop, and have insane mobility.
Conclusion:
This is my go to tvp mech build, and I found it very potent against most of my opponents. As long as I don't die early game because I didn't scout or skipped a bunker or two, I often straight up kill my opponent at the 14 minute mark. My mech army overpowers the protoss army with sheer strength, something that reminds me of the brood war days. The rumble of the seige tanks blasts are music to my terran ears =] Go out there and try it! If you have any questions feel free to ask them, I'd be happy to answer them!
Replays:
Notice how little damage I do with my banshees because my opponents played very safe/standard/properly. My push still comes out over 30 food ahead. Now imagine if I got more than 2-3 probes, how strong it would be =] All opponents are GMs.
Rank 70 GM, Antiga -> http://drop.sc/267927
Opponent's Build: 1gate expansion -> 3gate -> robo -> 3rd/4th gas -> twlight/forge -> colo + charge + upgrades -> 5 gate
Description: Very standard play from my opponent. My harass does hardly any damage (3-4 probes). I push out at around 13 minutes and get into a nice position outside of the natural. My opponent has a nice arc, but I simply have too many units, and his colossus are nearly useless against the lines and lines of sieged up tanks. His army melts to mine in the final engagement and he taps out.
Rank 6 GM, Ohana -> http://drop.sc/267928
Opponent's Build: 1gate expansion -> robo -> 3gate -> 3rd/4th gas -> forge -> colo -> 5 gate
Description: Again, very standard play from my opponent. My harass gets like 1 probe because my opponent got a fast obs into my base and scouted it. The push was a bit slow to get into the sweet spot between the natural/3rd, but eventually I was able to push there, and force an engagement. Notice when my opponents army attempts to hit from a different angle I dart into his main with 6 hellions. Also, if you are able to kill all his obs, your banshees can eat up his colossus.
Rank 34 GM, Cloud Kingdom -> http://drop.sc/267940
Opponent's Build: 1gate expansion-> 3gate -> robo -> 3rd/4th gas -> colo (2 base stalker/colo timing attack)
Description: My opponent opened up fairly standard and did one of the best builds on this map, the stalker/colo 2 base timing attack. Notice how even though with only 4 factories and rallying my raven like a nublet my army is still much stronger than his. His army attempts to engage mine, but his front line evaporates in a second. He pulls back to his natural, but my tanks get a vice grip on his natural and he is forced to engage into my fortified position. He taps out after seeing his army disappear for a second time.
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Nice, yet another guide. StimmedProbe, you're like the only person who still makes terran guides. I really appreciate it! =)
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Some more StimmedProbe guide?
To think that yesterday, I was praticing your builds (4 thors, hellion all-in, 1/1/1 contain) all day, and you provide me some more good stuff =)
I am surprised by your supply advantage, but you're GM and I'm not, so I'll believe you again!
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I have been struggling so much vs protoss lately, and I'll defiantly try this out.
Thanks a lot! :D
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How do you lose when you play this build? I don't mean when you die to an allin or something, I mean, how do you lose in the lategame?
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Nice guide! and it's about mech, hurray. Hopefully many people will find this useful and try out mech (or try again).
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On October 26 2012 14:26 theLiminator wrote:
How do you lose when you play this build? I don't mean when you die to an allin or something, I mean, how do you lose in the lategame?
If i lose late game it is normally because of an early attack from the protoss which damaged me, but didn't kill me. If I get to mid-game on even footing, I rarely lose. I have lost a base trade once, that's the only one I remember out of like 20+ games. Ultra late game you need to be careful about motherships, when you get vortexed your tanks come out in tank mode.
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On October 26 2012 14:26 theLiminator wrote:
How do you lose when you play this build? I don't mean when you die to an allin or something, I mean, how do you lose in the lategame?
You lose with terran mech when you make positional or compositional mistakes.
Other than that if the push didnt fully work ghosts will have to be added after to combat archon/air/mothership builds. (or maybe vikings. I dont like vikings.)
I dont actually know how protosses can counter terran mech with traditional PvT builds if its not a heavy pressure/all in builds.
Stimmedprobe will probably answer your question better
On another hand, Stimmed, since the opener is pretty much the TvZ hellion banshee into mech, whats your opinion on super heavy hellion compositions into quick 3rd base for extreme map control? to my knowledge the protoss army cant really do much against heavy hellions unless he opened blink stalkers, in which even then the aoe damage is too hard and risks his gas for collosi production
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On October 26 2012 14:37 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 14:26 theLiminator wrote:
How do you lose when you play this build? I don't mean when you die to an allin or something, I mean, how do you lose in the lategame? You lose with terran mech when you make positional or compositional mistakes. Other than that if the push didnt fully work ghosts will have to be added after to combat archon/air/mothership builds. (or maybe vikings. I dont like vikings.) I dont actually know how protosses can counter terran mech with traditional PvT builds if its not a heavy pressure/all in builds. Stimmedprobe will probably answer your question better On another hand, Stimmed, since the opener is pretty much the TvZ hellion banshee into mech, whats your opinion on super heavy hellion compositions into quick 3rd base for extreme map control? to my knowledge the protoss army cant really do much against heavy hellions unless he opened blink stalkers, in which even then the aoe damage is too hard and risks his gas for collosi production
Nicely put, most of mech losses are because of composition mistakes (no ghosts late game, lack of anti-air, not enough hellions/buffer units) ect. You can also lose if you are out of position or not in siege mode.
This is a little bit different than the hellion/banshee opening. You don't get hellions out, and your banshee is much faster. There are also no double armories and the 3rd base is later. The factories are also much faster (8:30 vs 10:30). The TvZ mech build is a heavy 3-4 base macro build generally. This build is a sharp 2 base -> do damage -> continue if needed type of build. I prefer to open banshees because I can use them to scout. Hellions can't really scout.
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Thanks Stimmedprobe, at least where there is a huge deficit of terran guides, you are like a drop of water in the desert..
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On October 26 2012 14:42 StimmedProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 14:37 padfoota wrote:On October 26 2012 14:26 theLiminator wrote:
How do you lose when you play this build? I don't mean when you die to an allin or something, I mean, how do you lose in the lategame? You lose with terran mech when you make positional or compositional mistakes. Other than that if the push didnt fully work ghosts will have to be added after to combat archon/air/mothership builds. (or maybe vikings. I dont like vikings.) I dont actually know how protosses can counter terran mech with traditional PvT builds if its not a heavy pressure/all in builds. Stimmedprobe will probably answer your question better On another hand, Stimmed, since the opener is pretty much the TvZ hellion banshee into mech, whats your opinion on super heavy hellion compositions into quick 3rd base for extreme map control? to my knowledge the protoss army cant really do much against heavy hellions unless he opened blink stalkers, in which even then the aoe damage is too hard and risks his gas for collosi production Nicely put, most of mech losses are because of composition mistakes (no ghosts late game, lack of anti-air, not enough hellions/buffer units) ect. You can also lose if you are out of position or not in siege mode. This is a little bit different than the hellion/banshee opening. You don't get hellions out, and your banshee is much faster. There are also no double armories and the 3rd base is later. The factories are also much faster (8:30 vs 10:30). The TvZ mech build is a heavy 3-4 base macro build generally. This build is a sharp 2 base -> do damage -> continue if needed type of build. I prefer to open banshees because I can use them to scout. Hellions can't really scout.
Hellions cant scout -> Personally when i open heavy hellions in TvP I feel if the protoss is doing something greedy/weird hes going to die/take a ton of damage when my hellions go right up his face, which signals to me hes doing something weird, and if he does something safe its going to show up to defend against my hellions, thereby allowing me to "scout" simply by forcing him to show his hand, no?
I havent met a guy who sim cities until later on when the composition is set tho
However, I do love all kinds of hellion/banshee openers simply because of how aggressive and mobile they are 
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Interesting. it looks a lot like my own 1 rax-3/4fact - 1 port push. that's a really nice attack
isnt 4 tl fact a bit overkill on 2 bases btw?
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I can see this being super strong, I guess the main thing is not dying to some sort of 2 base/3 base timing. Or maybe heavy warp prism play? (But i'm sure you'll have tons of turrets from extra min.)
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Is anybody else having trouble accesing the replays? After my client starts up after saving it and opening it once i enter my password and such and get into b.net it dosen't play the replay right away like it used to? Am i missing something?
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After watching the Antiga game my only question is why do you need 4 tech lab facts? At no point during that game did you produce 4 tanks at a time, generally you stuck with 3 at a time and just produced a hellion out of the 4th tech lab fact. Could you not get the same production with 3 tech facts, and 1 reactor? And maybe get an amory for +1 instead of that other factory??
My reasoning is because I feel like you are going all-in because if you don't do damage the Toss will be up in tech (He was about 3 min from Storm, and if the push fails he will have his 3rd which means multiple Robo's.
Where has you have 0 upgrades, you do have a 3rd, but not in the positon to get out vikings if he pumps out massive amounts of coli after your failed push
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I think getting 4 tl is for flexibility.
Remember a tl can also produce hellions. And when he has gas, it can be used for tanks. I am not sure but I think its just for flexibility.
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This build seems to have potential. But is it possible to win againts equall oponent that goes immortal/archon ? Tanks bearly do any damage to both the units. Do you incorporate some ghost or more banshes when you see alot of immortal and templar ? Do you kite them with helions to lower their shields ?
I always struggle with mech againts immortals.
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This seems similar to the TvP Mech build shown in the Day9 Daily, although this goes for tanks instead of Thors and a bit more Marines.
I'm curious to see how this would against a Stargate opening, as tanks cannot shoot up.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On October 26 2012 17:24 Thezzy wrote:
This seems similar to the TvP Mech build shown in the Day9 Daily, although this goes for tanks instead of Thors and a bit more Marines.
I'm curious to see how this would against a Stargate opening, as tanks cannot shoot up.
You have some marines and a starport, as well as already building up to 4techlab factories. You could probably make a round of thors, and if he commits heavily to stargate, kill him with an scv pull, if he doesnt, be fine with a few marines, turrets, maybe a thor on patrol or something.
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prefer a 111 with reactor hellion plus medivac drop into expand before going mech in tvp. with a dual prong hellion harass you can get a lot of probes taht allows you to play mech nicely.
in these cases it seems ur opponents arent used to dealing with mech (all going herp derp colossus as if expecting mmm all the time), with correct scouting chargelots/immortals/archons/templar shld stop this push.
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Italy12246 Posts
Cool stuff!
Do you have replays against bulldog/immortal busts with a warp prism? I do that vs tech/expand openings a lot and it works really well, i'm curious to see how it does at GM level.
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Wow this guide is exactly what I was looking for. Fantastic guide. My only question is in regards to upgrades. When do you get them? if ever? Wouldn't +1 attack on mech really really increase dos in a tank heavy comp like this?
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On October 26 2012 16:12 Moonling wrote:
After watching the Antiga game my only question is why do you need 4 tech lab facts? At no point during that game did you produce 4 tanks at a time, generally you stuck with 3 at a time and just produced a hellion out of the 4th tech lab fact. Could you not get the same production with 3 tech facts, and 1 reactor? And maybe get an amory for +1 instead of that other factory??
My reasoning is because I feel like you are going all-in because if you don't do damage the Toss will be up in tech (He was about 3 min from Storm, and if the push fails he will have his 3rd which means multiple Robo's.
Where has you have 0 upgrades, you do have a 3rd, but not in the positon to get out vikings if he pumps out massive amounts of coli after your failed push
I get 4 factories with tech lab because that spends your 3 base gas income perfectly. With 6 gas, you earn 672 gas per minute, and 4 factories with tech lab consume 667 gas per minute. You will also spend 100 gas a minute on banshees. Again, you gotta produce hellions from time to time if your macro is perfect, but most of the time I find that 4 tl facts + 1 reactor fact + 1tl port macros perfectly off 3 bases for another sharp timing.
Upgrades do not matter very much, although they are nice. Your positioning and whether or not you are sieged up properly determine the outcome of the game much more than a +1 upgrade.
On October 26 2012 17:03 blublub wrote:
This build seems to have potential. But is it possible to win againts equall oponent that goes immortal/archon ? Tanks bearly do any damage to both the units. Do you incorporate some ghost or more banshes when you see alot of immortal and templar ? Do you kite them with helions to lower their shields ?
I always struggle with mech againts immortals.
You earn 448 gas per minute off 4 gas, you think you can get 4 obs, 6 stalkers, at least 3 sentires, and immortals and archons out? It ain't happening. The banshees already force at least 3 obs from protoss and 6 stalkers. Check my calculations below.
On October 26 2012 17:56 brofestor wrote:
prefer a 111 with reactor hellion plus medivac drop into expand before going mech in tvp. with a dual prong hellion harass you can get a lot of probes taht allows you to play mech nicely.
in these cases it seems ur opponents arent used to dealing with mech (all going herp derp colossus as if expecting mmm all the time), with correct scouting chargelots/immortals/archons/templar shld stop this push.
I crush chargelot/immortal/archon/templar harder than colo based play lol... That's why there are no replays of it. It is a 1a stomp.. You have roughly 3000 gas to spend on stuff to beat the stuff in my screenshot. Go ahead and try to find a mix that beats it lol.. Warpgate + Robo + 6 stalkers + 3 sentries + 4 obs = 1050 gas. You got 2000ish left. Twlight/Templar archives, -350. So you wanna make 6 archons? Oh you want charge as well? Then make that 5 archons.. oh and no immortals then..
On October 26 2012 18:06 Teoita wrote:
Cool stuff!
Do you have replays against bulldog/immortal busts with a warp prism? I do that vs tech/expand openings a lot and it works really well, i'm curious to see how it does at GM level.
I'll ask my practice partners to try it.
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...and here I was just getting the hang of mmm/ghost/viking control :D
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Stimmed deserves something next to his name from TL. Always providing new T builds in a really stagnant era for it.
Would be great to see some replay's with early harrass
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We should all join together to nominate this guy for blue poster status. IMO this build could be even better in HoTS with HellBats.
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I have a big problem with this sort of guide - something that all 'Mech in TvP' posts fail to recognise - your opponents are essentially misreading your build, and reacting terribly, which is what allows you to win.
Mech will always be the 'catch em with their pants down' in WoL, because if a protoss knows mech is coming, he should never lose. The standard 1 gate expo => 3 gate => colossus + double forge is about the worst possible thing the protoss could be doing. Colossi are not all that useful against pure mech, and upgrades are flat out a waste of time vs mech. As such, any time your opponent gets colossus + double forge, you should treat it as a horrible misread.
This makes mech a wonderful laddering strategy, the overwhelming majority of Protoss simply have no idea how to deal with mech, and will play standard and get crushed. On the other hand, those that do respond correctly will similarly crush you with little difficulty.
That being said, the strongest thing about this build is the fact that it *looks* so much like a 1/1/1 in the early stages - which will often cause a protoss to cut probes at ~30 at which point they fall too far behind to catch up.
I just feel it's always worth mentioning that builds like these can never become the standard because of how bad they are when your opponent is expecting them. (If you don't believe that, consider that Mech TvP is similar to broodwar TvP, but the terran has a few disadvantages - tanks are weaker, hellions are way worse than vultures - while protoss has a few advantages - dragoons can blink, zealots can charge, immortals stomp everything. The only 'new' thing for the terran that could threaten that balance is the thor - which is vulnerable to templar anyway)
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Not to take anything away from the guide - fantastic guide overall - I just *really* feel it needs to be stressed that this should only work when your opponent isn't expecting it/doesn't scout mech until he's fully commited to an anti-bio build. Again, these factors make it a fantastic laddering strategy, but terrible tournament strategy.
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Sweet guide!
Thanks yet again for showing that there are still people out there working hard on furthering the strategies that we Terran rely on to survive throughout these dark times.
Will try to refine this out on my practice account, thanks again!
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On October 26 2012 19:22 StimmedProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 17:56 brofestor wrote:
prefer a 111 with reactor hellion plus medivac drop into expand before going mech in tvp. with a dual prong hellion harass you can get a lot of probes taht allows you to play mech nicely.
in these cases it seems ur opponents arent used to dealing with mech (all going herp derp colossus as if expecting mmm all the time), with correct scouting chargelots/immortals/archons/templar shld stop this push. I crush chargelot/immortal/archon/templar harder than colo based play lol... That's why there are no replays of it. It is a 1a stomp.. You have roughly 3000 gas to spend on stuff to beat the stuff in my screenshot. Go ahead and try to find a mix that beats it lol.. Warpgate + Robo + 6 stalkers + 3 sentries + 4 obs = 1050 gas. You got 2000ish left. Twlight/Templar archives, -350. So you wanna make 6 archons? Oh you want charge as well? Then make that 5 archons.. oh and no immortals then..
i really doubt it...pls show replays of that happening outside of some early immortal/prsim bust,
colossus always FARE WORST against mech builds since they are practically shite against mech and the gas will be better use for immortals...
when i mean about the compo is that it would have prob at max, a few archons with a mostly chargelot/immortal army, sprinkling of stalker and templar (feedback/storm) for those banshees. All your replays so far just show that ur opponent know how to do colo builds very well but fail to adapt to mech since they probably meet ur build only like once every hundred PvT they have.
Upon scouting with obs, the toss should have stop colo production, get super fast 3rd for the gas (since you cannot pressure with mech early) to build chargelot/immortal. and pls they dont need so many obs, 2 plus a cannon or 2 will be enough.
If there are a few games where toss PLAYED OPTIMALLY TO MECH and yet ur mech can still crush them, MVP wld be using mech to TvP his way to the bank alr.
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On October 26 2012 21:38 Methy wrote:
I have a big problem with this sort of guide - something that all 'Mech in TvP' posts fail to recognise - your opponents are essentially misreading your build, and reacting terribly, which is what allows you to win.
Mech will always be the 'catch em with their pants down' in WoL, because if a protoss knows mech is coming, he should never lose. The standard 1 gate expo => 3 gate => colossus + double forge is about the worst possible thing the protoss could be doing. Colossi are not all that useful against pure mech, and upgrades are flat out a waste of time vs mech. As such, any time your opponent gets colossus + double forge, you should treat it as a horrible misread.
This makes mech a wonderful laddering strategy, the overwhelming majority of Protoss simply have no idea how to deal with mech, and will play standard and get crushed. On the other hand, those that do respond correctly will similarly crush you with little difficulty.
That being said, the strongest thing about this build is the fact that it *looks* so much like a 1/1/1 in the early stages - which will often cause a protoss to cut probes at ~30 at which point they fall too far behind to catch up.
I just feel it's always worth mentioning that builds like these can never become the standard because of how bad they are when your opponent is expecting them. (If you don't believe that, consider that Mech TvP is similar to broodwar TvP, but the terran has a few disadvantages - tanks are weaker, hellions are way worse than vultures - while protoss has a few advantages - dragoons can blink, zealots can charge, immortals stomp everything. The only 'new' thing for the terran that could threaten that balance is the thor - which is vulnerable to templar anyway)
People were saying very similar things about Mech TvZ until a few months ago. For the timing the build hits it's clearly very hard for a Protoss to deflect no matter their composition. If they go for a 2 base play then the Terran can take a defensive advantage and get his/her third up.
Until enough high level players truly experiment with Mech TvP it's incredibly hard to say that it definitively won't work.
Also, whoever is right or wrong in the mech debate doesn't particuarly matter. The majority of people are not Masters+ and are only really looking for ladder builds anyway.
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On October 26 2012 22:08 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 21:38 Methy wrote:
I have a big problem with this sort of guide - something that all 'Mech in TvP' posts fail to recognise - your opponents are essentially misreading your build, and reacting terribly, which is what allows you to win.
Mech will always be the 'catch em with their pants down' in WoL, because if a protoss knows mech is coming, he should never lose. The standard 1 gate expo => 3 gate => colossus + double forge is about the worst possible thing the protoss could be doing. Colossi are not all that useful against pure mech, and upgrades are flat out a waste of time vs mech. As such, any time your opponent gets colossus + double forge, you should treat it as a horrible misread.
This makes mech a wonderful laddering strategy, the overwhelming majority of Protoss simply have no idea how to deal with mech, and will play standard and get crushed. On the other hand, those that do respond correctly will similarly crush you with little difficulty.
That being said, the strongest thing about this build is the fact that it *looks* so much like a 1/1/1 in the early stages - which will often cause a protoss to cut probes at ~30 at which point they fall too far behind to catch up.
I just feel it's always worth mentioning that builds like these can never become the standard because of how bad they are when your opponent is expecting them. (If you don't believe that, consider that Mech TvP is similar to broodwar TvP, but the terran has a few disadvantages - tanks are weaker, hellions are way worse than vultures - while protoss has a few advantages - dragoons can blink, zealots can charge, immortals stomp everything. The only 'new' thing for the terran that could threaten that balance is the thor - which is vulnerable to templar anyway) People were saying very similar things about Mech TvZ until a few months ago. For the timing the build hits it's clearly very hard for a Protoss to deflect no matter their composition. If they go for a 2 base play then the Terran can take a defensive advantage and get his/her third up. Until enough high level players truly experiment with Mech TvP it's incredibly hard to say that it definitively won't work. Also, whoever is right or wrong in the mech debate doesn't particuarly matter. The majority of people are not Masters+ and are only really looking for ladder builds anyway.
It's not about composition - it's about playstyle. Fundamentally, Mech cannot put on substantial pressure until *at least* 10 minutes, and even then usually 13 or 14, they can harass, sure, but that's it. Standard Protoss play involves making sure you're safe from attacks in the early parts of the game. Think about how long it took protoss to figure out straight up 50 food stim timings? A long time, and builds that they do now incorporate being safe against them (early 3 gates + sentries)
Against mech this isn't an issue, you play it out like broodwar, a third base off 1 or 2 gates and maybe a robo (though you don't need the robo because of the lack of mines). Taking a third at 6 minutes, walling it in tight to prevent hellion run byes, chronoboosting right up to 70 probes at 10 minutes, ignoring upgrades all together, skipping sentries (except for maybe having 1 to deflect hellions), and then flooding with gateway units/immortals. That is how you deal with mech, and it is incredibly effective. On the other hand, that playstyle will cripple you against bio.
If you're trying to match 2 base vs 2 base PvT mech, the Protoss player should always lose, no one is disputing that. This build is immensely strong in those situations because of how efficient mech armies are.
The issues with TvZ mech *WERE* simply 'composition' issues - roach busts before siege mode were crippling, but getting early tanks against mutalisks was similarly crippling, the solution was to add in banshees to keep you safe against roaches, and effectively transition straight to thors for protection against mutas.
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Also, what you're forgetting is that the high level players *have* truly experimented with mech - right after the transition from Broodwar. It's really really not hard to see that Mech in PvT is still very similar to Broodwar PvT, but Protoss have massive advantages, while terran have disadvantages - that is exactly how terran players concluded that bio is the better choice.
Any protoss with expertise in broodwar PvT should be absolutely fine against any mech build in SC2, with the one possible exception of mass thor + banshee - but that gets stomped so stupidly hard by feedback that it's hardly an issue.
edit - I'd like to actually point out that Thor Banshee was a fairly popular build for a long time in the early stages of the game - scans + thors long range AA taking out observers first, and then cloaked banshees dominating because of the lack of detection. This was extremely strong after they made strike cannons a cooldown - taking away the thor energy. So strong in fact, that they had to revert the change and give thors energy, making the composition extremely vulnerable to templar play (feed back on thors and banshees, air units general succeptability to storm because of a high degree of stacking, etc)
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And again, my point was not that this is a terrible build, it's a fantastic build, but it really irks me when guides are created that don't explicitly lay out the weakness of the build.
While this build will bring players huge success on the ladder, I feel it should be explicitly stated in the OP that you will be walled against anybody that *does* understand how to respond correctly, but that those players are the extreme minority, even in Master/Grandmaster league. If you're happy to accept that in a small percentage of cases you will lose the game where there was quite literally nothing you could reasonably have done to win it - a fundamental problem with just about any laddering build - then you can ignore this. It is, however, a very prominant weakness with the build.
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How would I beat this as a Protoss if I face it on ladder? What have you lost to?
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I recently faced this as toss on ladder, and despite fast 3 bases, upgrades and a heavy chargelots/archons army, I got demolished despite higher army pop.
Mech scares me. Not because I think it's unbeatable, but it's exactly as Methy said: we face this build so rarely on ladder that we don't know anything about timings and good reactions. With more experience I have no doubts it wouldn't be terribly hard to hold it.
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On October 26 2012 22:41 mizU wrote:
How would I beat this as a Protoss if I face it on ladder? What have you lost to?
As I said above, play it like Broodwar. If you're unfamiliar with Broodwar then play it out like this:
(Ideal strategy - you know mech is coming before the game starts)
+ Show Spoiler +
- Any 1 gate Expo
- 3rd Nexus at ~6:00 (if you're uncomfortable with deflecting hellions off just one gate, do add a second)
- Robo asap after this since cloaked banshees will be coming at ~7:30 (should be able to get your first observer out comfortably)
- get a single forge at your third, and upgrade attack (not armour) without chronoboosting (upgrades are largely irrelevant against mech - to see this, work out the number of attacks required for stalkers and zealots to kill tanks and hellions with and without upgrades - compare this to the terran side of the picture)
- Wall in both your natural and your third to prevent hellions getting into the mineral line (again broodwar style)
-Go up to ~ 10 gates (should all be done before 10 minutes)
-Constantly produce chronoboosted immortals out of your robo after 2-3 obs
You then have two paths to follow:
- Double robo with constant immortal production before twighlight
OR
- Twighlight researching blink then charge
- Early 4th base with templar
You should be trying to deny him expos as much as possible. Don't ever try to push in to a heavily fortified position. Always try to set up flanks (flanks are your BIGGEST friend against mech) Since he doesn't have mines, he can't really prevent this, as such you can make it a general rule to always attack from *at least* 2 different angles, and pick where you want to engage accordingly.
If the game ever ends up split map, get a mothership and go for mass recall into the main (again similar to broodwar style) Sacrificing your entire army to kill off production facilities if needs be, and then flooding with reinforcements (similar to zerg)
Your general mentality is that he has the cost effective army, so you cannot win a fight cost for cost. His army is immobile however, so cannot shut down expansions. As such you're playing like a zerg - getting a big economic lead and flooding with low cost units (going for backstabs/base trades are also quite effective)
Now ideally you will not know mech is coming, and so will open up 1 gate FE => 3 gate robo. This is less than optimal against mech builds but still winnable *if* you throw down a third as soon as your obs gets to his base to reveal mech, and play as detailed above.
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On October 26 2012 22:50 Nyast wrote:
I recently faced this as toss on ladder, and despite fast 3 bases, upgrades and a heavy chargelots/archons army, I got demolished despite higher army pop.
Mech scares me. Not because I think it's unbeatable, but it's exactly as Methy said: we face this build so rarely on ladder that we don't know anything about timings and good reactions. With more experience I have no doubts it wouldn't be terribly hard to hold it.
Committing to upgrades is, unfortunately, a bad thing against mech as they do so little for you. The idea is that the same square of 'dragoons/zealot vs tank/vulture' exists - Tanks want to be firing at stalkers not zealots, hellions want to soak up stalker hits to protect the tanks, while firing at zealots, zealots want to draw tank fire allowing stalkers to close with the tanks.
This is why blink is so helpful - zealots run in initially to draw the tank fire, but unlike broodwar, the 'dragoons' can simply ignore the 'vultures' - they can blink directly onto the tanks while the tanks are firing at zealots. Add in the power of immortals against BOTH tanks and vultures, and... well... *ouch*
As such, archon/chargelot is not actually an optimal composition *anyway.*
That being said, it is still far more about playstyle than about composition. You need to play fairly similarly to zerg, taking expansions early and getting a huge economic lead.
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hi mr probe.
first off, i deeply appreciate your work done with this guide and im already a fan of your idea.
I like how you basically skip the reactor rax and the armory in favor of earlier gas and more factories to get out that monstrous amount of tanks. however i am concerned about this build in a couple of ways.
1. you stay on 1 rax production up until 7 minutes ( which is when your first banshee pops) and completely rely on that for defence. meaning that, once you put down the factory you are commited to go through with it all the way and have no way to hold any 3 gate blink or 4 gate all in because you will eventually just get outproduced. Even just holding some well executed 3 gate pressure will prove to be quite a difficult task.
2. what would you actually do if protoss would, however wierd it may be, proxy stargate you. build vikings and micro like a boss?
3. this build is completely all in. once you lose your tanks you are done for. you have no upgrades. your 3rd is super late.
Also, in the ohana game vs this gm dude you won because he played greedy and didnt respond to your tech at all.
while you made as many units as you possibly could, this guy went for thermal lance colossi, 2-2 uprages, charge and a 3rd with 7 gates. so its no wonder that you were ahead in supply.
i suggest that you should think about doing this build with a cc first 2 rax opener (just to be a little safer against early pressure not for constant marine production) and skip one factory in favor of an armory and armor upgrades. I know this would cut into your tank count but you should be able to get a decent lategame setup up with this.
edit: your execution was flawed too. you could have had 10 more scvs by the time you moved out.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 26 2012 22:41 mizU wrote:
How would I beat this as a Protoss if I face it on ladder? What have you lost to?
Other than bulldogging it (not sure if this works vs gm's but i've beaten monk with it so eh), i think a 1gate fe -> some sort of robo/3gate into forge/twilight council opening would do very well vs this kind of stuff. I never was a fan of colossi vs mech, and the ability to get charge, blink, archons and immortals vs the push should do extremely well.
That said yeah mech stuff is so unexplored, it's kinda hard to say. More than anything, it would come down to positioning. Getting a reactionary warp prism to flank with 2 immortals and a round of warped in zealots would also be really strong for instance.
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On October 26 2012 23:22 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:41 mizU wrote:
How would I beat this as a Protoss if I face it on ladder? What have you lost to? Other than bulldogging it (not sure if this works vs gm's but i've beaten monk with it so eh), i think a 1gate fe -> some sort of robo/3gate into forge/twilight council opening would do very well vs this kind of stuff. I never was a fan of colossi vs mech, and the ability to get charge, blink, archons and immortals vs the push should do extremely well. That said yeah mech stuff is so unexplored, it's kinda hard to say. More than anything, it would come down to positioning. Getting a reactionary warp prism to flank with 2 immortals and a round of warped in zealots would also be really strong for instance.
Does "Bulldog" mean Immortal bust? If so, one base or two base Immortal bust?
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Is there any way to skip banshees? ?
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ooo, I'm definitely going to try this out!
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1rax cc gasgas opening can autolose to some all-ins; so I don't recommend using this in every ladder game, cuz you'll just lose sometimes and not be able to stop it. For example if they do a 4gate warp prism attack in your main without making the chronos obvious (so to your first scv scout it will just look like a 1gate nexus) you won't have the units to stop it, no matter how many bunkers you make. The build is sensitive to immortal all-ins as well, especially if they use a pylon and observer to warp zlots into your main while pressuring your bunkers with the immortals. Just because the builds aren't optimal (because they're not making them obvious to you by showing chronos on warpgate or 2gas for immortal, etc) doesn't mean they aren't effective.
Your all-in defense comes from them not being able to know that you're going 1rax cc gasgas instead of 1rax cc raxrax, so most of the time you will be safe because they shouldn't choose all-ins which will work against your build since they shouldn't work vs normal play, and they can't know you aren't playing normally. Unless they know you're meching before game (custom game vs a friend or whatever), and then they can just kill you. It's safer to open with a gas build.
The cloaked banshee will stop 6gate all-ins. You may however be vulnerable to a 4gate after nexus, so just scout well for pylons and activity on the map.
I'm interested in how you adapt vs tech builds (2gas). The build as it is with no adaptations will of course lose to things like blink all-in and dt. Hell, your build doesn't mention an ebay, and your raven comes out too late just to stop dt after nexus (which would just show your scout 1gas, and make 2nd gas after you leave; and then a second scout would see nexus).
On 2base you cannot possibly support constant production of 4tanks and 1banshee. You can either not quite afford constant production of 3tanks, or you can afford constant production of 2tanks and 1banshee (with a little left over for upgrades). So there's no point in wasting gas on those extra factories, or at least in making techlabs on them. Increased hellion production will let you scout and harass better, so that will help. When korean terrans mech they usually open with 1 techlab and 2 reactors. If you have an adequate hellion count you won't need to "scan ahead".
Tank/hellion oriented builds have no lategame, so even if your push isn't an all-in, it might as well be. Voidrays won't be able to kill you outright, but they will delay your push assuming they haven't neglected their ground army. This lets them stall for mothership and/or carriers which can kill you. You can defend initially with thors and turrets, but as the game progresses and his carrier count increases you'll no longer be able to defend. And, having not expo'd quickly, having dumped a lot of gas into tanks and upgrades, and then the rest of your gas into survival-thors, you can't afford the bcs and/or ravens necessary to actually beat the carriers.
With other styles of mech I've found heavy immortal/archon/zlot compositions to be quite strong, but your style may very well not have trouble with them. Have you experienced something like that before?
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Watching replays now.
I know you're a little mineral-tight initially, but a hellion right before/after techlab (for port) could help scouting a lot. You have no map vision or second scout to confirm that he went 1gate nex. I can understand wanting to hide the fact that you're going mech by not making/showing a hellion, but it strikes me as being very risky to have no second scout.
Oh you do make one on cloud kingdom. Why not in the other games?
Your build is probably smart on antiga. Management oriented mech builds don't fare well there.
No armory will make defending air tough, and make your army less longevous as the game goes on.
I see all three games were pretty easy/short, what is your intended transition for when you play vs someone who realizes that letting a mech army get across the map for free is a bad idea? Do you have any games where this attack doesn't end the game where you still win?
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Yeah, a 2 base timing attack is normally quite strong, but what if the P reacts and defends properly? It will go to the mech style that many people believe does not work?
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 26 2012 23:49 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:22 Teoita wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 mizU wrote:
How would I beat this as a Protoss if I face it on ladder? What have you lost to? Other than bulldogging it (not sure if this works vs gm's but i've beaten monk with it so eh), i think a 1gate fe -> some sort of robo/3gate into forge/twilight council opening would do very well vs this kind of stuff. I never was a fan of colossi vs mech, and the ability to get charge, blink, archons and immortals vs the push should do extremely well. That said yeah mech stuff is so unexplored, it's kinda hard to say. More than anything, it would come down to positioning. Getting a reactionary warp prism to flank with 2 immortals and a round of warped in zealots would also be really strong for instance. Does "Bulldog" mean Immortal bust? If so, one base or two base Immortal bust?
Bulldog is a brood war term. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bulldog
I do it off 2 bases as a reaction to defensive tank openings, or if i hold off a hellion drop or cloak banshee without taking many losses (and the t goes tanks, which is quite common with 111 expand these days).
The warp prism dropping 4 zealots is key as otherwise tanks on the high ground are next to impossible to break.
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On October 27 2012 00:53 Nightmarjoo wrote:
1rax cc gasgas opening can autolose to some all-ins; so I don't recommend using this in every ladder game, cuz you'll just lose sometimes and not be able to stop it. For example if they do a 4gate warp prism attack in your main without making the chronos obvious (so to your first scv scout it will just look like a 1gate nexus) you won't have the units to stop it, no matter how many bunkers you make. The build is sensitive to immortal all-ins as well, especially if they use a pylon and observer to warp zlots into your main while pressuring your bunkers with the immortals. Just because the builds aren't optimal (because they're not making them obvious to you by showing chronos on warpgate or 2gas for immortal, etc) doesn't mean they aren't effective.
Your all-in defense comes from them not being able to know that you're going 1rax cc gasgas instead of 1rax cc raxrax, so most of the time you will be safe because they shouldn't choose all-ins which will work against your build since they shouldn't work vs normal play, and they can't know you aren't playing normally. Unless they know you're meching before game (custom game vs a friend or whatever), and then they can just kill you. It's safer to open with a gas build.
The cloaked banshee will stop 6gate all-ins. You may however be vulnerable to a 4gate after nexus, so just scout well for pylons and activity on the map.
I'm interested in how you adapt vs tech builds (2gas). The build as it is with no adaptations will of course lose to things like blink all-in and dt. Hell, your build doesn't mention an ebay, and your raven comes out too late just to stop dt after nexus (which would just show your scout 1gas, and make 2nd gas after you leave; and then a second scout would see nexus).
On 2base you cannot possibly support constant production of 4tanks and 1banshee. You can either not quite afford constant production of 3tanks, or you can afford constant production of 2tanks and 1banshee (with a little left over for upgrades). So there's no point in wasting gas on those extra factories, or at least in making techlabs on them. Increased hellion production will let you scout and harass better, so that will help. When korean terrans mech they usually open with 1 techlab and 2 reactors. If you have an adequate hellion count you won't need to "scan ahead".
Tank/hellion oriented builds have no lategame, so even if your push isn't an all-in, it might as well be. Voidrays won't be able to kill you outright, but they will delay your push assuming they haven't neglected their ground army. This lets them stall for mothership and/or carriers which can kill you. You can defend initially with thors and turrets, but as the game progresses and his carrier count increases you'll no longer be able to defend. And, having not expo'd quickly, having dumped a lot of gas into tanks and upgrades, and then the rest of your gas into survival-thors, you can't afford the bcs and/or ravens necessary to actually beat the carriers.
With other styles of mech I've found heavy immortal/archon/zlot compositions to be quite strong, but your style may very well not have trouble with them. Have you experienced something like that before?
Very well said, I was about to post much the same.
1 - Your build will lose to any attack that happens on the 8min attack or before, as you only have 2 bunkers + 8 marines + 1 banshee (no cloak). This includes 1 gate nex 4 gate pressure, 6 gate, and any 1 base build.
2 - You didn't scout between your initial scv scout and when your banshee hits their base at 8:40 in any of the 3 replays. And in one replay you didn't even see if he expanded or not. So you're really gambling that they will NR 10.
3 - In none of the 3 replays did the toss get charge. In my tvp meching experience, chargelots make a HUGE HUGE difference. Add archons to that mix, and hell/tank becomes barely cost efficient (I've run many unit tests, and it ALL boils down to how efficiently you split spread and arc your tanks, which you kinda did but not really)
4 - As nightmarjoo pointed out, it might not seem like your 2 base push is all-in, but it might as well be. You don't even get an armory.
Also, for further build optimization you might want to consider getting a medivac instead of your third banshee and going for blue-flame hellion drop harass to follow up. Getting siege mode by the 9:30 mark is useless since you only have 1 tank and if the protoss was gonna attack you anyway, it'd be by the 8min mark.
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On October 26 2012 22:54 Methy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:41 mizU wrote:
How would I beat this as a Protoss if I face it on ladder? What have you lost to? As I said above, play it like Broodwar. If you're unfamiliar with Broodwar then play it out like this: (Ideal strategy - you know mech is coming before the game starts) + Show Spoiler +
- Any 1 gate Expo
- 3rd Nexus at ~6:00 (if you're uncomfortable with deflecting hellions off just one gate, do add a second)
- Robo asap after this since cloaked banshees will be coming at ~7:30 (should be able to get your first observer out comfortably)
- get a single forge at your third, and upgrade attack (not armour) without chronoboosting (upgrades are largely irrelevant against mech - to see this, work out the number of attacks required for stalkers and zealots to kill tanks and hellions with and without upgrades - compare this to the terran side of the picture)
- Wall in both your natural and your third to prevent hellions getting into the mineral line (again broodwar style)
-Go up to ~ 10 gates (should all be done before 10 minutes)
-Constantly produce chronoboosted immortals out of your robo after 2-3 obs
You then have two paths to follow:
- Double robo with constant immortal production before twighlight
OR
- Twighlight researching blink then charge
- Early 4th base with templar
You'll never get to know before 6 minutes if he's meching, but assuming you do a standard 1 gate fe->3gate robo build, you should know what's up by 7:30-8:00, in which case you can cancel/not start your robo bay, do a partial wall on natural with pylons/gates. From there, you would start twilight and 1 forge and get charge+blink and keep up constant immortal+gateway unit production and maybe even take guys off gas at your nat to get a 3rd started fairly early. You'd only want to add in colossi in late/midgame if he's going extremely heavy on the hellions, but obv first you want to have a big base of chargelots, blink stalkers, and immortals.
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On October 27 2012 03:15 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:54 Methy wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 mizU wrote:
How would I beat this as a Protoss if I face it on ladder? What have you lost to? As I said above, play it like Broodwar. If you're unfamiliar with Broodwar then play it out like this: (Ideal strategy - you know mech is coming before the game starts) + Show Spoiler +
- Any 1 gate Expo
- 3rd Nexus at ~6:00 (if you're uncomfortable with deflecting hellions off just one gate, do add a second)
- Robo asap after this since cloaked banshees will be coming at ~7:30 (should be able to get your first observer out comfortably)
- get a single forge at your third, and upgrade attack (not armour) without chronoboosting (upgrades are largely irrelevant against mech - to see this, work out the number of attacks required for stalkers and zealots to kill tanks and hellions with and without upgrades - compare this to the terran side of the picture)
- Wall in both your natural and your third to prevent hellions getting into the mineral line (again broodwar style)
-Go up to ~ 10 gates (should all be done before 10 minutes)
-Constantly produce chronoboosted immortals out of your robo after 2-3 obs
You then have two paths to follow:
- Double robo with constant immortal production before twighlight
OR
- Twighlight researching blink then charge
- Early 4th base with templar
You'll never get to know before 6 minutes if he's meching, but assuming you do a standard 1 gate fe->3gate robo build, you should know what's up by 7:30-8:00, in which case you can cancel/not start your robo bay, do a partial wall on natural with pylons/gates. From there, you would start twilight and 1 forge and get charge+blink and keep up constant immortal+gateway unit production and maybe even take guys off gas at your nat to get a 3rd started fairly early. You'd only want to add in colossi in late/midgame if he's going extremely heavy on the hellions, but obv first you want to have a big base of chargelots, blink stalkers, and immortals.
I really really commend charge over blink. Do unit tests if you don't believe me. The difference between having charge and not is tremendous.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 27 2012 03:17 happyft wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 03:15 Drowsy wrote:On October 26 2012 22:54 Methy wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 mizU wrote:
How would I beat this as a Protoss if I face it on ladder? What have you lost to? As I said above, play it like Broodwar. If you're unfamiliar with Broodwar then play it out like this: (Ideal strategy - you know mech is coming before the game starts) + Show Spoiler +
- Any 1 gate Expo
- 3rd Nexus at ~6:00 (if you're uncomfortable with deflecting hellions off just one gate, do add a second)
- Robo asap after this since cloaked banshees will be coming at ~7:30 (should be able to get your first observer out comfortably)
- get a single forge at your third, and upgrade attack (not armour) without chronoboosting (upgrades are largely irrelevant against mech - to see this, work out the number of attacks required for stalkers and zealots to kill tanks and hellions with and without upgrades - compare this to the terran side of the picture)
- Wall in both your natural and your third to prevent hellions getting into the mineral line (again broodwar style)
-Go up to ~ 10 gates (should all be done before 10 minutes)
-Constantly produce chronoboosted immortals out of your robo after 2-3 obs
You then have two paths to follow:
- Double robo with constant immortal production before twighlight
OR
- Twighlight researching blink then charge
- Early 4th base with templar
You'll never get to know before 6 minutes if he's meching, but assuming you do a standard 1 gate fe->3gate robo build, you should know what's up by 7:30-8:00, in which case you can cancel/not start your robo bay, do a partial wall on natural with pylons/gates. From there, you would start twilight and 1 forge and get charge+blink and keep up constant immortal+gateway unit production and maybe even take guys off gas at your nat to get a 3rd started fairly early. You'd only want to add in colossi in late/midgame if he's going extremely heavy on the hellions, but obv first you want to have a big base of chargelots, blink stalkers, and immortals. I really really commend charge over blink. Do unit tests if you don't believe me. The difference between having charge and not is tremendous.
The idea of blink before charge is that you can get both in time for the push, but blink first gives you more map control and makes defending hellions easier.
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This is a extremely interesting build. will defiantly try this out in hots and give my feed back to see how I like it
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this build and other variants of it would definitely be much more viable in HotS since the widow mine will help immensely in defense (and for early game harassment too)...if blizz keep the mine that way, which i doubt they would.
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How do you defend blink all-in with this build?
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Hmmmmm I think phoenixes or voidrays or both with chargelot archon would be decent, instead of going for colossi.
I used to go voidrays vs mech a few seasons ago, unless it gets scouted, anti air is not going to be existent in this build, right?
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Great build! I was looking for solid tvp build and this is really what I was looking for. I am diamond, and I have played four games and my record is 2-2 so far. Both loses that i had were due to poor positioning and sieging/unsieging. For this build it is always good to scout ahead with a hellion.
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Its pretty obvious if you scout two fast gas geysers for toss, you have to modify this build greatly. on certain maps like cloud kingdom and antiga you may have to throw down a tech lab on the barracks and make a second barracks with a tech lab to pump marauders to give you enough defense vs blink stalker all-in until you get a decent tank count. I personally dont think mech is going to be viable vs toss till heart of the swarm. We dont have proper meat shield units/blocking devices to protect tanks from protoss units. Charglot/archon/immortal crushes mech horribly.
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I try to play only with this build and it is ok. But I find really weak vs warp prism play, early dt's or dt's with warpprism. Even after Nexus. Upon scouting it protoss can go just straight tech knowing that you wont attack him until you have enough units. And the constant warp prism/dt harrass delays this final push a lot. I usually lost when got harrased like that because protoss was able to establish his 3rd and get zelot charge. Often the warprism is used later in fights droping zelots onto tanks and warping next waves close to tanks. I feel like 1 early viking is a must and getting another later. But don't know how to squeez them when I have to make 2 cloacked banshes and a raven ASAP or then i have no map awareness or detection.
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On October 29 2012 23:45 blublub wrote:
I try to play only with this build and it is ok. But I find really weak vs warp prism play, early dt's or dt's with warpprism. Even after Nexus. Upon scouting it protoss can go just straight tech knowing that you wont attack him until you have enough units. And the constant warp prism/dt harrass delays this final push a lot. I usually lost when got harrased like that because protoss was able to establish his 3rd and get zelot charge. Often the warprism is used later in fights droping zelots onto tanks and warping next waves close to tanks. I feel like 1 early viking is a must and getting another later. But don't know how to squeez
them when I have to make 2 cloacked banshes and a raven ASAP or then i have no map awareness or detection.
I agree with this warp prism harass hits really hard. Yesterday I lost a game to warp prism + dt in the main, i just didn't have enough stuff to defend. I would recommend even skipping clock and getting viking after initial banshie and then raven.
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Any new repays with this build?
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I see on all 3 of the replays they go for colossus based armies...how does this fare against storm? I would think good positioning would do fairly well against it, but storm blankets on the hellions and chargelots to clean up the tanks is something I find myself running into a lot.
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I can only speak for diamond level, but it fares even better against ht openings, with hellions its really easy to bait the storm, or even completely dodge it.
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Hey how do u scout for 3/4 gate pressure off an expand and how do u even hold it?
I've been doing a bit of a variation of your build the past few days and 3/4 pressure off a protoss f/e really gets me.
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this is crazy I cant wait to try it
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Nice guide man, will definetly try it out on the Diamond Ladder ^.^
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thanks stimmedprobe for inspiring me TvP again
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This seems extremely solid.
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On October 31 2012 04:21 ReachTheSky wrote:
Hey how do u scout for 3/4 gate pressure off an expand and how do u even hold it?
I've been doing a bit of a variation of your build the past few days and 3/4 pressure off a protoss f/e really gets me.
I've been playing this build for the past week. If I see a 3/4 gate coming from saved chrono or chrono on cyber core, I put down a second rax and pump more marines. It doesn't slow down your banshee too much, but a 3/4 gate really slows down their robo! If it is a bluff 4 gate, no big deal, once the 4 gate window has passed you stop marine production
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does anyone have trouble with blink stalkers, they made me lose the game twice ina row. Also it would be cool i stimmed probe provided some more replays covering various situations.
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I have been trying this for 2 days now. I have had about 20 wins and 2 losses. The losses came from early pressure, i even used it in tvz and tvt with succes! Stimmed! I thank you! <3 :3
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no seriously how does a protoss deal with this build LOL
I feel like the current trend in TvP is just to pray the opponent doesnt do their craziest two base build when you play greedy, or play the craziest one base/two base build yourself so that never happens.
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On November 02 2012 11:00 padfoota wrote:
no seriously how does a protoss deal with this build LOL
I feel like the current trend in TvP is just to pray the opponent doesnt do their craziest two base build when you play greedy, or play the craziest one base/two base build yourself so that never happens.
Archon/Immortal/Chargelot with Storm destroys this composition
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On November 02 2012 11:18 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 11:00 padfoota wrote:
no seriously how does a protoss deal with this build LOL
I feel like the current trend in TvP is just to pray the opponent doesnt do their craziest two base build when you play greedy, or play the craziest one base/two base build yourself so that never happens. Archon/Immortal/Chargelot with Storm destroys this composition
Archon/Immortal/Chargelot before 14 min, k.
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Wow a good mech build for WoL, was expecting this to be for HotS. I'll definitely have to try this out, even though I'm Zerg =p
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On November 03 2012 22:40 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 11:18 oOOoOphidian wrote:On November 02 2012 11:00 padfoota wrote:
no seriously how does a protoss deal with this build LOL
I feel like the current trend in TvP is just to pray the opponent doesnt do their craziest two base build when you play greedy, or play the craziest one base/two base build yourself so that never happens. Archon/Immortal/Chargelot with Storm destroys this composition Archon/Immortal/Chargelot before 14 min, k.
You have to open with about 6 stalkers and 2-3 observers to deal with the banshees. After that, when scouting all the factories, I feel like getting 4-5 phoenix and otherwise going pretty standard (collosi zealot heavy) is the best response. Don't go double forge, 1 forge is plenty, upgrades don't help much vs mech. Make sure you engage from multiple angles with your zealots and lift 4-5 tanks before engaging.
Edit: Also, don't reveal the Phoenix or harass with them, use them to lift tanks first then clean up the banshees. You can harass with them afterwards, but you want the terran to continue producing banshees (even if they switch to vikings this should still work, but if they keep making banshees it just makes it that much stronger).
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On October 26 2012 21:38 Methy wrote:
I have a big problem with this sort of guide - something that all 'Mech in TvP' posts fail to recognise - your opponents are essentially misreading your build, and reacting terribly, which is what allows you to win.
Mech will always be the 'catch em with their pants down' in WoL, because if a protoss knows mech is coming, he should never lose. The standard 1 gate expo => 3 gate => colossus + double forge is about the worst possible thing the protoss could be doing. Colossi are not all that useful against pure mech, and upgrades are flat out a waste of time vs mech. As such, any time your opponent gets colossus + double forge, you should treat it as a horrible misread.
This makes mech a wonderful laddering strategy, the overwhelming majority of Protoss simply have no idea how to deal with mech, and will play standard and get crushed. On the other hand, those that do respond correctly will similarly crush you with little difficulty.
That being said, the strongest thing about this build is the fact that it *looks* so much like a 1/1/1 in the early stages - which will often cause a protoss to cut probes at ~30 at which point they fall too far behind to catch up.
I just feel it's always worth mentioning that builds like these can never become the standard because of how bad they are when your opponent is expecting them. (If you don't believe that, consider that Mech TvP is similar to broodwar TvP, but the terran has a few disadvantages - tanks are weaker, hellions are way worse than vultures - while protoss has a few advantages - dragoons can blink, zealots can charge, immortals stomp everything. The only 'new' thing for the terran that could threaten that balance is the thor - which is vulnerable to templar anyway)
All of the above is pretty accurate. If your opponent knows you're meching 100% you will 100% lose TvP with mech UNLESS you happen to kill off 20-30 probes, in which case had you gone bio you could have basically won the game easily, whereas with mech you're just even with the protoss.
SC2 P v Mech is basically brood war P vs Mech except you have warp prisms, immortals, and warp-in while Terran gets no spider mines and weaker tanks.
Mech usually works because the opponent has no fucking clue what to do, or they are doing a cookie cutter build with lots of sentries that dies to mech.
Although, on a map like say, daybreak, mech can be viable if you open cloak banshee and kill workers. But once again, if you kill 20-30 workers why did you not simply go bio and win the game 20x easier?
At least HOTS is making mech tvp better (though it's not quite there yet).
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On November 03 2012 22:40 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 11:18 oOOoOphidian wrote:On November 02 2012 11:00 padfoota wrote:
no seriously how does a protoss deal with this build LOL
I feel like the current trend in TvP is just to pray the opponent doesnt do their craziest two base build when you play greedy, or play the craziest one base/two base build yourself so that never happens. Archon/Immortal/Chargelot with Storm destroys this composition Archon/Immortal/Chargelot before 14 min, k.
It's standard vs mech. Lots of people (apparently you too) don't understand this because mech not played too often so you don't see the standard P v T mech play.
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On November 04 2012 10:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 22:40 Thylacine wrote:On November 02 2012 11:18 oOOoOphidian wrote:On November 02 2012 11:00 padfoota wrote:
no seriously how does a protoss deal with this build LOL
I feel like the current trend in TvP is just to pray the opponent doesnt do their craziest two base build when you play greedy, or play the craziest one base/two base build yourself so that never happens. Archon/Immortal/Chargelot with Storm destroys this composition Archon/Immortal/Chargelot before 14 min, k. It's standard vs mech. Lots of people (apparently you too) don't understand this because mech not played too often so you don't see the standard P v T mech play.
yeah, I said it because people have done it. Banshees don't really change anything delaying this when you are playing a good player.
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Nice variation, i like it. One thing you play a little riskier, do you have any replays were protoss was agressive early?
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On November 04 2012 19:24 Mali__Slon wrote:Nice variation, i like it. One thing you play a little riskier, do you have any replays were protoss was agressive early?
not yet. i guess you just have to camp and bunker with tanks and depot walls.
ill post more replays when i played more matches with this bo, if ur interested.
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Very nice build. I will give it a try later on.
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On November 05 2012 02:31 headnut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 19:24 Mali__Slon wrote:Nice variation, i like it. One thing you play a little riskier, do you have any replays were protoss was agressive early? not yet. i guess you just have to camp and bunker with tanks and depot walls. ill post more replays when i played more matches with this bo, if ur interested.
Sure that would be quite helpful.
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Ive been using this at mid master level but havent faced any P's whove gone HT not colossi. Anyone have any replays of games where they have?
Or tbh and replays of losses with this where it wasnt early harass just a flat out army engagement loss (preferably not just forgetting to siege etc  )
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150 apm with mech, respect
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thanks, if you get any more games, add them also...
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how to quickly respond if toss goes like 1 or 2 stargates ? >_<
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On November 12 2012 05:51 foxj wrote:
how to quickly respond if toss goes like 1 or 2 stargates ? >_<
From my experience, thors. Many thors. SG unit clump like hell. In midish master people dont seem to be able to split VRs well at all. having 6 thors shooting at a bunch of clumped VRs kills them in no time.
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On November 12 2012 05:51 foxj wrote:
how to quickly respond if toss goes like 1 or 2 stargates ? >_< I would go for some Thors at first; they're better defensively because you can repair them, then reactor your Starport at some point to get Vikings to deal with the Voidrays better.
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On November 12 2012 04:43 Squigly wrote:150 apm with mech, respect
ehhhh... i just play sc2 for a month and a week .......
give me some time with my apm ^^
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On November 12 2012 08:07 headnut wrote:ehhhh... i just play sc2 for a month and a week ....... give me some time with my apm ^^
Lol it was actually a compliment. If i get 100apm with mech i feel pleased
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Thanks for this new build StimmedProbe.
Do you think that this build is good for TvT and TvZ ?
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Yes, its very good in TvZ.
I played against a friend today. I'm the zerg. He doesnt even harass me, he finally win the game (after a very tense one btw)
http://drop.sc/276013
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Great ! I has been helping me a lot recently vs toss in low master.
Also with minor variations, goings into macro-mode with 3rd before him or researching the upgrades.
I wonder if this or something like this can be applied to zerg (with tipical variations like banchee hellion in the begining).
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Trying this strat at the moment, had a game where I won vs a late blink stalker Toss on Antiga and this recent game it seemed my opponent read the strat very well and just made a bunch of gateway units with immortals and crushed my attack
http://drop.sc/279432 ( Korean diamond )
will keep trying this strat as I have most likely engaged wrong.
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On November 16 2012 06:35 Insoleet wrote:Yes, its very good in TvZ. I played against a friend today. I'm the zerg. He doesnt even harass me, he finally win the game (after a very tense one btw) http://drop.sc/276013
Lovely replay and all but, how does this have much to do about the actual 5fact 2 base build >_>? All i see is a hellion banshee opener into mech with heavy banshee usage and infested terrans everywhere
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Great build.
how do you deal with an early blink obs with this build? bunkers in main?
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Thank you so much, man. Your builds are the only ones I can find that are clear-cut terran builds that lay out the strategy in a way that a noobish plat player like me can actually use for himself. In platinum I usually have to get wins by completely outplaying my opponent mechanically, because I didn't know how to open or any builds or anything. Now that I have a build, I can put my superior mechanics to good use, and I am tearing up low masters ^_^
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How were these in any way food for thought? Why would you even post these?
In both cases you deviate from SP's build in ways that put you severely behind where he would be at a similar point in the game. You weren't even coming close to his army strength and supply at similar timings, because you kept delaying yourself for no real gain.
I guess what we can pull from this is that if you do a really awful version of this build it's not very good? Thanks for the info buddy!
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On October 26 2012 22:26 Methy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:08 DKR wrote:On October 26 2012 21:38 Methy wrote:
I have a big problem with this sort of guide - something that all 'Mech in TvP' posts fail to recognise - your opponents are essentially misreading your build, and reacting terribly, which is what allows you to win.
Mech will always be the 'catch em with their pants down' in WoL, because if a protoss knows mech is coming, he should never lose. The standard 1 gate expo => 3 gate => colossus + double forge is about the worst possible thing the protoss could be doing. Colossi are not all that useful against pure mech, and upgrades are flat out a waste of time vs mech. As such, any time your opponent gets colossus + double forge, you should treat it as a horrible misread.
This makes mech a wonderful laddering strategy, the overwhelming majority of Protoss simply have no idea how to deal with mech, and will play standard and get crushed. On the other hand, those that do respond correctly will similarly crush you with little difficulty.
That being said, the strongest thing about this build is the fact that it *looks* so much like a 1/1/1 in the early stages - which will often cause a protoss to cut probes at ~30 at which point they fall too far behind to catch up.
I just feel it's always worth mentioning that builds like these can never become the standard because of how bad they are when your opponent is expecting them. (If you don't believe that, consider that Mech TvP is similar to broodwar TvP, but the terran has a few disadvantages - tanks are weaker, hellions are way worse than vultures - while protoss has a few advantages - dragoons can blink, zealots can charge, immortals stomp everything. The only 'new' thing for the terran that could threaten that balance is the thor - which is vulnerable to templar anyway) People were saying very similar things about Mech TvZ until a few months ago. For the timing the build hits it's clearly very hard for a Protoss to deflect no matter their composition. If they go for a 2 base play then the Terran can take a defensive advantage and get his/her third up. Until enough high level players truly experiment with Mech TvP it's incredibly hard to say that it definitively won't work. Also, whoever is right or wrong in the mech debate doesn't particuarly matter. The majority of people are not Masters+ and are only really looking for ladder builds anyway. It's not about composition - it's about playstyle. Fundamentally, Mech cannot put on substantial pressure until *at least* 10 minutes, and even then usually 13 or 14, they can harass, sure, but that's it. Standard Protoss play involves making sure you're safe from attacks in the early parts of the game. Think about how long it took protoss to figure out straight up 50 food stim timings? A long time, and builds that they do now incorporate being safe against them (early 3 gates + sentries) Against mech this isn't an issue, you play it out like broodwar, a third base off 1 or 2 gates and maybe a robo (though you don't need the robo because of the lack of mines). Taking a third at 6 minutes, walling it in tight to prevent hellion run byes, chronoboosting right up to 70 probes at 10 minutes, ignoring upgrades all together, skipping sentries (except for maybe having 1 to deflect hellions), and then flooding with gateway units/immortals. That is how you deal with mech, and it is incredibly effective. On the other hand, that playstyle will cripple you against bio. If you're trying to match 2 base vs 2 base PvT mech, the Protoss player should always lose, no one is disputing that. This build is immensely strong in those situations because of how efficient mech armies are. The issues with TvZ mech *WERE* simply 'composition' issues - roach busts before siege mode were crippling, but getting early tanks against mutalisks was similarly crippling, the solution was to add in banshees to keep you safe against roaches, and effectively transition straight to thors for protection against mutas. If Protoss takes a third that quickly AND has multiple gateways AND a Robo AND makes himself safe to hellion run-bys, he'll be incredibly vulnerable to cloaked banshee harrass, and frankly any non-zero number of units before the 10 minute mark. If you do this build without deviation and fail to punish an extremely greedy opening by Protoss, and he hard-counters mech units with his composition, sure you'll probably get crushed. That's to be expected. Thanks for the heads up!
Every strategy is going to have strengths and weaknesses. This strategy is incredibly strong against "standard" play, and provides the infrastructure needed for deviation if the Protoss goes for something super greedy.
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On November 28 2012 15:30 scrubbingbbl wrote:
Great build.
how do you deal with an early blink obs with this build? bunkers in main?
You die more or less. You need to rule out 3/4 gate before nexus or any tech all-in / pressure build before going double refinery off of 1 rax. Anything else is a gamble in my opinion.
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I have been trying to play with this style with moderate success (2 wins 4 losses) in EU platinum.
I'm having a lot of toruble dealing with zealot heavy compositions and HTs/archons though.
Here is a replay of me crushing a platinum protoss: http://drop.sc/283319
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On November 29 2012 01:21 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:26 Methy wrote:On October 26 2012 22:08 DKR wrote:On October 26 2012 21:38 Methy wrote:
I have a big problem with this sort of guide - something that all 'Mech in TvP' posts fail to recognise - your opponents are essentially misreading your build, and reacting terribly, which is what allows you to win.
Mech will always be the 'catch em with their pants down' in WoL, because if a protoss knows mech is coming, he should never lose. The standard 1 gate expo => 3 gate => colossus + double forge is about the worst possible thing the protoss could be doing. Colossi are not all that useful against pure mech, and upgrades are flat out a waste of time vs mech. As such, any time your opponent gets colossus + double forge, you should treat it as a horrible misread.
This makes mech a wonderful laddering strategy, the overwhelming majority of Protoss simply have no idea how to deal with mech, and will play standard and get crushed. On the other hand, those that do respond correctly will similarly crush you with little difficulty.
That being said, the strongest thing about this build is the fact that it *looks* so much like a 1/1/1 in the early stages - which will often cause a protoss to cut probes at ~30 at which point they fall too far behind to catch up.
I just feel it's always worth mentioning that builds like these can never become the standard because of how bad they are when your opponent is expecting them. (If you don't believe that, consider that Mech TvP is similar to broodwar TvP, but the terran has a few disadvantages - tanks are weaker, hellions are way worse than vultures - while protoss has a few advantages - dragoons can blink, zealots can charge, immortals stomp everything. The only 'new' thing for the terran that could threaten that balance is the thor - which is vulnerable to templar anyway) People were saying very similar things about Mech TvZ until a few months ago. For the timing the build hits it's clearly very hard for a Protoss to deflect no matter their composition. If they go for a 2 base play then the Terran can take a defensive advantage and get his/her third up. Until enough high level players truly experiment with Mech TvP it's incredibly hard to say that it definitively won't work. Also, whoever is right or wrong in the mech debate doesn't particuarly matter. The majority of people are not Masters+ and are only really looking for ladder builds anyway. It's not about composition - it's about playstyle. Fundamentally, Mech cannot put on substantial pressure until *at least* 10 minutes, and even then usually 13 or 14, they can harass, sure, but that's it. Standard Protoss play involves making sure you're safe from attacks in the early parts of the game. Think about how long it took protoss to figure out straight up 50 food stim timings? A long time, and builds that they do now incorporate being safe against them (early 3 gates + sentries) Against mech this isn't an issue, you play it out like broodwar, a third base off 1 or 2 gates and maybe a robo (though you don't need the robo because of the lack of mines). Taking a third at 6 minutes, walling it in tight to prevent hellion run byes, chronoboosting right up to 70 probes at 10 minutes, ignoring upgrades all together, skipping sentries (except for maybe having 1 to deflect hellions), and then flooding with gateway units/immortals. That is how you deal with mech, and it is incredibly effective. On the other hand, that playstyle will cripple you against bio. If you're trying to match 2 base vs 2 base PvT mech, the Protoss player should always lose, no one is disputing that. This build is immensely strong in those situations because of how efficient mech armies are. The issues with TvZ mech *WERE* simply 'composition' issues - roach busts before siege mode were crippling, but getting early tanks against mutalisks was similarly crippling, the solution was to add in banshees to keep you safe against roaches, and effectively transition straight to thors for protection against mutas. If Protoss takes a third that quickly AND has multiple gateways AND a Robo AND makes himself safe to hellion run-bys, he'll be incredibly vulnerable to cloaked banshee harrass, and frankly any non-zero number of units before the 10 minute mark. If you do this build without deviation and fail to punish an extremely greedy opening by Protoss, and he hard-counters mech units with his composition, sure you'll probably get crushed. That's to be expected. Thanks for the heads up! Every strategy is going to have strengths and weaknesses. This strategy is incredibly strong against "standard" play, and provides the infrastructure needed for deviation if the Protoss goes for something super greedy.
if he makes himself safe from runbys(cannons/stalkers) he is safe vs banshee harras to.
The counter to this build is fast third, just as you scout he is meching at 8min, you drop your third nexus, and tech to zealot archon, while building up immortal count.
When terran push out, just flank him from 3-4 sides and he will be screwed. Though i agree doing normal build with later third for toss might be insta lose vs this.
The idea is force his obs to state at home with banshee and if he tryes to scout you out with obs kill it with scan and marines before finding out your build. This will force toss to play in blind and not do optimal build agains your mech.
Also i think Supernova does somwhat similar opening with fast cc and cloack banshee and fast third, but he transitions into bio, so researching his play might be useful. Also consider doing 12rax 13gas builds with cloack banshee to make opponents think its 1-1-1, while you cut corners(stop marine production at 4, get fast 3oc), since he will cut his probe production, while doing just small damage with your banshee,, might make you miles ahead of your opponents, and then you do your mech push, also there will be large posibility that toss will tech to colossus suspecting 1-1-1 and have totally wrong composition. Basically smart play is very important for terran mech play, good multitask/micro/macro wont be enough. just my 2cents.
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On December 12 2012 11:34 Sated wrote:
Basically, I think this is only working for you because your opponent's haven't seen it before and don't know how to react. This doesn't surprise me, as you seem to be a master of creating gimmicky builds that will only work against someone who hasn't seen them before. Not that this is a bad thing, I just feel like I should point out how weak this build will be against a proper response as it's strength seems to lie in catching the opponent off-guard (as in they've gone for a standard composition instead of tailoring their composition to compete with yours).
So, moving off this point, has anyone played this build against against Skytoss? I mostly play Skytoss PvZ, occasionally PvP, and I feel like a gate robo gate expand would scout this plenty early enough to respond with a 5 phoenix opener. Phoenixes will hard counter both banshee and hellion play early on, and will be a major thorn in the side of siege tank lines later on. Additionally, they force either turrets, thors, or vikings, none of which are very good against the logical follow-up to phoenixes, carriers.
I'd be very interested to see how this build fares against a good Skytoss player.
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Thanks man, been following your builds since i saw the million man marine one I have to note that this build is somewhat vulnerable to some crazy toss allins, like the 4 gate prism, and is hard to scout sometimes (best to send the first helion in, but it will be later that in a standard 1 base 1-1-1 push and it may be too late).
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I appreciate that you've taken your time to make this guide. I'm a big fan of mech and I hope I can improve my game sense and mechanics so I'll win more games with it! Thanks for helping me out with this guide!
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First thought to me is that the opening will flat out die to any proxy oracle build and there are plenty of them.
Something may still be salvageable out of it however.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On May 10 2013 14:34 mrslunk wrote:
First thought to me is that the opening will flat out die to any proxy oracle build and there are plenty of them.
Something may still be salvageable out of it however.
The big thing is if you're going mech there's little to no reason for you not to get an early ebay if you scout 2 gas. It not only keeps you alive vs oracles but it also stops dts killing you too. I don't play with this exact build, but that's what you need to do as mech.
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I was super excited when I saw a StimmedProbe's mech build (even more excited when I saw it was TvP). Now I find to my disappointment that it was made for WoL (and during a time when I quit the game). The big tipoffs was opening 1 rax CC and the use of Blue Flame and normal Hellions. The severe lack of AA also worried me as a build that could straight up die so easily in HotS.
IMO, the safest current TvP build is Reaper->Reactor Marines expansion->Widow Mine drop. The first mine is up fast enough to defend you from Oracles, and you have plenty of Marines to defend the natural and fend off a Mothership Core poke. From there, I suppose you can go into Tanks+Banshees into more Factories. However, I feel weird trying this build as I don't know how well I could get the gas timings to line up so that I can actually get the tech I want at the WoL benchmarks. Also, Void Rays would tear this shit apart (especially with the buff). In the long term, Stargate play in general seems very problematic. If you see air, you need to make the right amount of Thors.
Makes me really sad too... I'd LOVE to play Mech TvP... I might just go back to WoL just to play this build... Hehehe. This and Mech TvZ.
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Firstly nice find there Hot_Ice and certainly thanks to StimmedProbe for this guide. It looks like it fits very well into my current playstyle.
Yes, it's for WoL, but there's not too much to change to get it to work in HotS imo. As was already mentioned, I'd add an early ebay to deal with Oracles. In exchange you don't have to research Siegemode anymore. The idea to get one more reactored Factory instead of a Techlab'ed for WidowMines is also nice.
I'll definitely try it... maybe even in the other matchups with some appropriate tweaks.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bleCb.jpg)
