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EDIT #1: Osiris does a nice analysis of a couple of variations on 11pool/19hatch vs 14pool/16hatch on page 2 of this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370042¤tpage=2#26
EDIT #2: From the discussion so far, it seems that some pros still do 11 or 12 pool openers, even at the highest levels of play. Furthermore these openers are safer than 14pool/16hatch vs any cannon aggression, so it's a good ladder opening. 14pool/16hatch is easier to execute in tourney play due to the supply depot at the ramp. Last, the eco hit taken by the 11pool/19hatch opening is slight and can be made up for by pressuring the toss player with the first 4 lings after securing the expo.
EDIT #3: Added section on how to roach rush vs 3-pylon block, with replay. See bottom of post.
Hi everyone,
I was not able to find a definitive answer on the +'s and -'s on the different openings in ZvP. I know most pro's/high-level players nowadays play 14pool/16hatch, but I am curious as to why, exactly... is it just the flavor of the season, or is it the best opening? As such, let me present the pro's and con's from my perspective on each of the "standard" ZvP openers:
1. 15hatch (easy one):
Pros:
a. Most economical opening.
Cons:
a. Very succeptible to ocannoning, and requires many drones to stop (and still many times results in loss).
Although ocannoning is very strong vs 15hatch, there are alternatives to dealing with this, the main one being some combination of cancelling the hatch into expanding to 3rd and proxy-hatch, a la Catz. The main issue with this is that it tends to be gimmicky, though can be pretty effective if not scouted in time.
2. 11pool/19hatch:
Pros:
a. Allows for easy securing of natural with fast 4 lings.
b. Once expansion is secured, 4 lings can be used to pressure toss. If the lings make it into his base (with nexus-first openings it can be close), then it can pretty much be GG due to probes running around/3+ probes getting picked off that early in the game. This is of course gimmicky and unreliable, but does force some early response from the protoss player and results in no loss to the zerg player, other than the cost of originally going 11pool.
c. Requires no drone scout.
d. In case of any aggressive ocannoning (pylon block or just early cannoning before hatch goes down), allows for a fast transition into 7RR, since the initial BO for both openers is the same. This can be scouted with 2nd overlord. Replay and
discussion/analysis of replay can be found at the bottom of this post.
Cons:
a. All else being equal, the least economical of the three.
3. 14pool/16hatch:
Pros:
a. Easier to deal with many ocannon variations due to pool-first.
b. More economical than 11pool.
c. I see most pros get only 2 lings instead of 4 once they feel that toss will not cannon them.
d. Can transition to a fast 5/7RR build which starts 14pool in case of some kind of ramp block before hatch starts.
Cons:
a. Succeptible to 3-pylon block without patrolling drone.
b. Due to early hatch, drone scout is pretty useful in case of aggressive cheese (so loss in mining time).
c. Can get pylon/probe blocked until lings come out.
So the questions I have are these:
Does anyone have any data on the economics of the three openers? I remember there was a graph that basically said 11pool/19hatch was better than 14/14/21 (and not too much worse than 15hatch), but 14pool/16hatch should be much better since you're not mining gas.
As a followup question, what's the economic impact with/without drone scouting? 11pool/19hatch requires no drone scout (your first 4 lings are sufficient), but 14pool/16hatch seems to lend itself to 2 non-mining drones: one to patrol the ramp, and one to scout. The scouting drone may be less important but on non-tourney maps it's very hard to stop a pylon block without a drone patrolling the ramp. If there're 2 non-mining drones at the start of the game, it seems like 11pool/19hatch would be roughly equal/better, but once again, I do not have, nor do I know where to find, data on this. I do think it's possible that most pros switched to 14pool/16hatch mainly because tournament maps do not allow for the 3-pylon block, so no defense is required against this.
Last question: off of pool-first openers, what are the pros and cons of getting 2, 4, or even 6 lings? 4 lings seems to be safe vs pretty much all cannon aggression (except 3-pylon block), lets you take both watch towers + ling outside his base, and have 1 left over to scout for proxies. 2 is a little low for my tastes, but lets you get another drone instead. 6 is used just to be aggressive.
Dealing with 3-pylon block:
The basic idea here is that when opening 11overpool, you can scout your natural with your OL for a 3-pylon block. If you see this, you can immediately transition into 7RR without losing a beat. I played this game with a masters toss opponent here (only the first 8 minutes or so are worth watching):
http://drop.sc/256301
Now there are many problems with my play:
1. My 7RR build was slightly off. The correct build can be found here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_/_Expand_/_Lair
Also, looking at it if I was to play macro like I did, 5 roaches with the remaining larva turned into drones would have been better.
2. I should have taken all my roaches, killed the cannon, then killed the pylon. While killing the cannon I should have sent my 2 drones out to double expand. From my analysis, this would have allowed me to put down each expansion 30 seconds earlier than I did in the game, even with a suboptimal build. Furthermore, I should have not bothered with the two other pylons and sent my roaches immediately, forcing faster cannons. He would not have had warpgate in time to do anything cute with the pylons anyway.
3. My macro after 3rd is put down is pretty bad. 3rd queen is significantly delayed, meaning my money piles up absurdly high before he even attacks. This is probably the difference in about 7+ drones and should have put me in a comfortable position economically.
Now, despite all these issues, I still play a pretty even game with my opponent. Drone/probe count is very comparable at the 6-8 minute mark despite lackluster macro on my part.
A similar build can be done opening with 14pool:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Roach_Expand
The main drawback is that the toss player is likely to start the pylons after you throw down the hatch at 16 (assuming no drone patrol), which means you have to cancel your hatchery, losing 75 minerals. Also, the 14pool 7RR variation is a few seconds slower. Neither of these are deal-breakers but they are worth considering.
Toss can also aggressively cannon your nat (3+ cannons), at which point you would probably want to switch to nydus or muta. The extra cannons sets him back a good amount, and you should be able to see this with your OL before committing to roaches (or you can use roaches with nydus). 7 roaches can handle 3 cannons after the pylon is killed however, not sure about more than that.
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Although ocannoning is very strong vs 15hatch, there are alternatives to dealing with this, the main one being some combination of cancelling the hatch into expanding to 3rd and proxy-hatch, a la Catz. The main issue with this is that it tends to be gimmicky, though can be pretty effective if not scouted in time.
That's an outdated video. The only time hatch first is safe is if Toss is going nexus first, which is common on certain maps or against certain players. I've also heard that gateway openers that reactively add a forge, and go zealot+cannon rush will kill hatch first. I'm not sure if that's an absolute, but I've seen a few GSL games where this happened and zerg died.
2. 11pool/19hatch:
Pros:
a. Allows for easy securing of natural with fast 4 lings.
b. Once expansion is secured, 4 lings can be used to pressure toss. If the lings make it into his base (with nexus-first openings it can be close), then it can pretty much be GG due to probes running around/3+ probes getting picked off that early in the game. This is of course gimmicky and unreliable, but does force some early response from the protoss player and results in no loss to the zerg player, other than the cost of originally going 11pool.
c. Requires no drone scout.
d. In case of any aggressive ocannoning (pylon block or just early cannoning before hatch goes down), allows for a fast transition into 7RR, since the initial BO for both openers is the same. This can be scouted with 2nd overlord.
a. not worth the economic cost of the quicker hatch with way less drones. a pylon block still takes a bit to wear down too.
b. If you want to pressure Toss, you are better off opening 10 pool or 6/7/8 pool. 11 pool really doesn't get lings out much quicker than 14 pool, map size might be a bigger factor than 11p vs 14p. And going 11 pool puts you down about 5 drones from 14-15p, not including how many lings you make. And, you will have to really delay your third.
c. Any opening can transition into a 7RR easily. There are multiple build orders out there for roach rushes from all sorts of pool timings. 3RR is done with a 13 pool. If Toss cannon rushes you they will hold their natural easily as they'll see you bust out with roaches, and just put cannons down at home. If they are the pylon/forge ramp block I'm not really sure, the game works out differently, but I don't see you holding a standard 13 forge FFE who does a cannon rush.
Also, 11 pool is highly susceptible to ramp blocks, just as much as any other opening zerg does. If you dont patrol the ramp when going 11 pool you will get ramp blocked. 1 cannon behind 2 pylons > 6 lings.
So the questions I have are these:
Does anyone have any data on the economics of the three openers? I remember there was a graph that basically said 11pool/19hatch was better than 14/14/21 (and not too much worse than 15hatch), but 14pool/16hatch should be much better since you're not mining gas.
Search "Zerg openers" , jdseemoreglass did some analysis on the economics of some zerg openers. It's a bit outdated, in that he doesnt test some openers, but he does test a lot of openers.
Assuming you bring a drone back immediately after seeing the main of an opponent, a drone scout costs about 80 minerals, and will be gone for 2 minutes, regardless of when you send it. A drone scout in general ends up costing you about 1-2 workers around the 6:00 mark or so. Not a very large cost.
You have to pull 2 drones on blizzard maps no matter what opening you do. What opening you do doesn't really effect the impact of this (ie 11 pool vs 14 pool which is hurt more by this). It's a flat rate they are both hurt by doing this. Just know that with 11 pool you have to pull 2 drones too, so it's not like 11 pool might be better than 14 pool because you dont have to pull a drone.
Pros never used 11 pool as a macro build even when there was no neutral depot and back when 2 pylons could wall a ramp.
Last question: off of pool-first openers, what are the pros and cons of getting 2, 4, or even 6 lings? 4 lings seems to be safe vs pretty much all cannon aggression (except 3-pylon block), lets you take both watch towers + ling outside his base, and have 1 left over to scout for proxies. 2 is a little low for my tastes, but lets you get another drone instead. 6 is used just to be aggressive.
you need 4 lings to take down a pylon block at your third (or natural for that matter) in a timely manner. The less lings you make at 3:05 when pool pops, the much better it is for you since it's a drone made so early on. There's not much reason to ever make 6 lings.
You don't make lings to be safe against cannon aggression. You need to pull drones against cannon aggression, if you don't, you die. As for your third, you have to have an overlord spot over it, or have a ling over there, in order to stop cannon rushes. Sending 4 lings to your third when a cannon is going up will be too late, so you have to have an overlord spotting so you can stop a cannon rush before the cannon is made.
I'd recommend making 2 lings, and only make more if toss looks like he might pylon block you. I usually get 4 eventually.
Most of this stuff has already been answered in this forum. My guide talks about some of this, as do the zerg openers threads.
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Generally speaking, the characteristics of doing an economical Zerg opening are the following:
- You make as many of your larvae into drones as possible.
- You minimize larva blocks (3 larvae at a time at a hatchery), especially early in the game.
- You make more mineral patches accessible by expanding timely, so you don't have over-saturation in your main.
- You don't take gas needlessly.
- You make a queen asap after your pool finishes.
I have experimented a lot with all these openers recently, and have found that sticking to these points is actually much more important than the exact order of drones and buildings. In other words: all of the openers you mentioned give you a lot of minerals and drones if executed properly. Things get complicated, though, when the probe arrives at your base.
You and Belial have already mentioned a lot of the technicalities involved: blocking the hatch with the probe or a pylon, cannon rushes, or even blocking the ramp. The three openers you mentioned all deal a bit differently with those. 15 Hatch I haven't even tried, since I suck at dealing with cannon rushes in general. 14/15 Pool gives you excess minerals quite early without the incentive of spending those on a queen (since the pool isn't done at that point). So you can try to take your expo from ~2:30 on, and more often than one would expect Zerg gets the hatch down before 3:00, meaning earlier mining, additional larva production, and the possibility to make only two lings instead of four. Protoss can, however, put a pylon down and either delay the expansion even further or force the third to be taken that way, which both hurts your economy or is, at least, inconvenient. This has become less popular recently though, maybe because Protoss prefers going Nexus first now and doesn't want to delay the forge after that.
11/12 Pool is different from 14/15 Pool in the way that you decide to get your queen before your expansion no matter what---since if you don't get the queen immediately after the pool finishes (and only lings to clear the natural), the earlier pool is a waste, in my opinion. Since this build is much less common than 14/15 Pool, I'll point out what I am talking about:
+ Show Spoiler +9 Overlord
12 Pool
16 4 Lings, Queen (double extractor trick)
20 Overlord
20 Hatchery (natural)
Rally next drone to third
21 Queen (goes to natural and injects there)
23 Hatchery (third)
24 Overlord
26 Queen -> main queen to natural (after inject), natural queen to third (after inject)
31 Overlord
36 Overlord
Notice that I am droning up until 16 after the fairly early pool before doing anything else. Compared to 15 pool, one drone is by ~30 seconds delayed, one by ~25, and one by ~20. With an average mining rate of 42 minerals/minute, the immediate mineral loss is thus approximately 75/60*42=52.5. Since 3 Hatch ZvP generally involves getting two hatches off of one base with ~16 drones on minerals, and 16 drones harvest about 700 minerals per minute, the third base is hardly delayed. With the build above, you should be able to take the third around 4:15-4:20. Notice you will have up to 5-6 idle larvae in your main, don't feel obliged to spend these right when they pop! In my opinion, this larva block doesn't hurt much since you can spend them after your putting down your third really quickly.
Edit: I forgot to add that a 12 pool consumes a drone something around 20 seconds earlier than 15 pool, so the early mining loss is more around 60-70 than 52.5. Points made still hold though, of course.
The main point of this is that most Protoss players will go forge first once they see that your pool is already building when they scout your main. And even if they go nexus first, you can send your four lings to your opponent and force him to wall off his natural completely. On most maps, this should be possible; however, in my experience, a cannon after 17 nexus forge will not complete in time to stop your lings from killing the forge! I have a replay of that, but I am not sure if I can easily find that after today's patch. I'll have a look, though.
Honestly, I don't know how much better nexus first is compared to forge first, but I would assume it is bigger than the difference between the 12 pool I described and the standard 15 pool into moderately delayed expo. This is controversial though since almost no pro does it (YuGiOh did it recently in the GSL, and there was a daily where ret did the similar 11 Overpool). If I have made any errors, I'd have them gladly pointed out. I am not a good player after all, and only posted this because this is basically a pre-5:00 numbers' game; when the actual game has started, the difference between how the builds play out becomes negligible.
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i remember nestea did 12 pool 19 hatch in a GSL match. It actually timed out perfectly when I played it. I think 12 pool 19 hatch will be best cause you get an early queen and that way you make the pylon block basically useless and deny any cannon rush, force an earlier cannon from the protoss, AND you get the three hatches super easy.
THERE ARE 0 LARVAE BLOCKS WHEN DOING 12 POOL 19 HATCH! (this is important that's why I'm yelling at you :p). There is a small one if you do 11 overpool 18 hatch though.
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Okay, if you are really that much into yelling, then I don't mind it, NOOBALOPSE.  But what you said is wrong. A 12 pool queen can do as much about any pylon or cannon block or cheese as a 15 pool queen can: nothing. Same goes for the lings as Belial pointed out. Those are bad arguments for a good thing.
And when I was mentioned the larva block, I was referring to the situation when your first inject finishes around 23 supply. At that point, you cannot spend all your larvae right away and get a third at the time.
When I tried 11/12 pooling way back, that was actually the mistake I would always do: spending all the larvae from my first inject right away. But that delays the third too much, as said, and you couldn't get much use from making those drones earlier anyway because your natural isn't done when these would hatch (I think so, at least, not sure if I recall that correctly).
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The numbers you guys have provided seem pretty useful. So let me highlight the relevant ones:
Assuming you bring a drone back immediately after seeing the main of an opponent, a drone scout costs about 80 minerals, and will be gone for 2 minutes, regardless of when you send it.
With an average mining rate of 42 minerals/minute, the immediate mineral loss is thus approximately 75/60*42=52.5.
From these numbers it seems like this is how they should be ranked, from best to worst economically (assuming equal numbers of lings):
1. 14/15pool 16hatch with no drone scout and no ramp blocking. From games I've seen, this is the most common opening.
2. 14/15pool 16hatch with one drone patrolling ramp. Assuming one minute of patrolling, loss of 40 minerals vs opening 1.
3. 11overpool 19hatch with no drone scout. Loss of 52.5 minerals vs opening 1.
4. 11overpool 19hatch with one drone patrolling ramp. Loss of 92.5 minerals vs opening 1.
5. 14/15pool 16hatch with one drone patrolling ramp and drone scout. Loss of 120 minerals vs opening 1.
So basically, if you feel safe opening 14/15pool 16hatch without drone scouting, this is the best economic opening, even with a patrolling drone. If you open 11overpool 19hatch (an opening I can do where I feel safe against any toss opener), you lost about 50 minerals (or a drone). Drone scouting loses you more, but as Belial said it's a loss of 1-2 drones at around the 6-minute mark. This is not going to be entirely accurate because you do get your 10th and 11th drone slightly earlier due to building an OL at 11 instead of 9, so the 11overpool opener suffers less than what's indicated here, but it's useful for comparison.
One note about the 3-pylon block: if toss does this before you throw down a hatch, which is what is necessary in an 11pool opener (since you don't get a hatch until you have lings), then he's completely stupid and is relying on you not knowing how to react. Proper reaction to this kind of thing will put you ahead of the toss player. If this was not the case then in every single high-level game, you would either see a patrolling drone by Z or a 3-pylon block by P if they had nothing to lose (I haven't seen either). I'm not sure how all pros deal with this (I have my own set of responses that have worked very well for me), but I'm sure they have a way to do it off of 14pool/16hatch without a patrolling drone or it would be much more common than it is. However if you do not know how to defend against this with 14pool/16hatch without a patrolling drone, 11overpool is slightly better due to basically equal economy and the other advantages it affords you (earlier lings, earlier queen), assuming you know how to react to a pylon block.
Back to the point that velvex raised... it seems that if you execute all the openings well, long-term it makes very little economic difference as to which opening you pick. If the above numbers are correct and people are still drone-scouting, then 14pool/16hatch does feel like more of a "flavor-of-the-season" build than necessarily the best economic build. If you don't drone-scout though and build only 2 lings instead of 4, Then 14pool/16hatch should be the best opener.
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There is something on pros and cons the OP doesn't mention:
14 hatch 16 pool:
con - susceptible to 1 pylon block on the hatch @ natural followed up by 3 cannons @ natural; forces 12 drones to be pulled & cancels cannons, putting protoss ahead economically
11 pool ~21 hatch:
pro - no need to pull drones to deal with above proxy cannons @ natural, lings will arrive in time
The difference between a perfectly executed macro for 11 pool 21 hatch vs 14 pool 16 hatch build is 10 food @ the 10 minute mark (I tested this multiple times), and having about 500 less total resources mined (5 roaches). Considering how quickly you are mining resources at the 10 minute mark, and you've mined over 10k resources by this point, it is a significant but not unjustifiable difference.
So determining whether this is economical will depend on whether pressuring the protoss results in reducing his total accumulated resources by 500 @ 10:00; and also considering the potential for the proxy cannons @ natural & how that may potentially set the 14 pool 16 hatch opening behind.
I suspect it is economical but I am not intimately familiar with the protoss openings enough to know for certain. It may be potentially advantageous depending on how safe the protoss opponent opens. It will vary with how easily the map may be walled, too. How much they must delay probes to block the lings from entering, etc. And what I can do if my lings do enter his base, can I drone up higher in different circumstances? Probably.
It will take somewhere around 2.0-2.5 probes worth of delay to make it approach economical. Since your pressure will begin around 3:30 (estimation), and full saturation of the protoss base will occur around 9:30 (estimation), 6 minutes of 2 probes not mining = 400 resources, 2.5 = 500.
BUT you still have to factor in whether the protoss gets an advantage from those earlier buildings (possibly an earlier core). That may or may not prove to be important. I'll have to look at the finances of the protoss build to know, and identify which builds I am concerned about.
Afterwards... dont forget to factor in the potential 3 cannon proxy rush @ natural.
It will also be slightly more economical on maps with distant 3rds, by ~30 minerals or so. : D
The 11 pool is promising. Whether you can get those 2.5 probes will depend entirely on the wall you force him to construct.
If they can be gotten, then I think it is a better opening since it runs no risk of the natural pylon block & 3 cannons. I will commit myself to analyzing the protoss response & calculating its economics at some point.
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On September 20 2012 06:33 osiris17 wrote:
There is something on pros and cons the OP doesn't mention:
14 hatch 16 pool:
con - susceptible to 1 pylon block on the hatch @ natural followed up by 3 cannons @ natural; forces 12 drones to be pulled & cancels cannons, putting protoss ahead economically
11 pool ~21 hatch:
pro - no need to pull drones to deal with above proxy cannons @ natural, lings will arrive in time
The difference between a perfectly executed macro for 11 pool 21 hatch vs 14 pool 16 hatch build is 10 food @ the 10 minute mark (I tested this multiple times), and having about 500 less total resources mined (5 roaches). Considering how quickly you are mining resources at the 10 minute mark, and you've mined over 10k resources by this point, it is a significant but not unjustifiable difference.
So determining whether this is economical will depend on whether pressuring the protoss results in reducing his total accumulated resources by 500 @ 10:00; and also considering the potential for the proxy cannons @ natural & how that may potentially set the 14 pool 16 hatch opening behind.
I suspect it is economical but I am not intimately familiar with the protoss openings enough to know for certain. It may be potentially advantageous depending on how safe the protoss opponent opens. It will vary with how easily the map may be walled, too. How much they must delay probes to block the lings from entering, etc. And what I can do if my lings do enter his base, can I drone up higher in different circumstances? Probably.
It will take somewhere around 2.0-2.5 probes worth of delay to make it approach economical. Since your pressure will begin around 3:30 (estimation), and full saturation of the protoss base will occur around 9:30 (estimation), 6 minutes of 2 probes not mining = 400 resources, 2.5 = 500.
BUT you still have to factor in whether the protoss gets an advantage from those earlier buildings (possibly an earlier core). That may or may not prove to be important. I'll have to look at the finances of the protoss build to know, and identify which builds I am concerned about.
Afterwards... dont forget to factor in the potential 3 cannon proxy rush @ natural.
It will also be slightly more economical on maps with distant 3rds, by ~30 minerals or so. : D
The 11 pool is promising. Whether you can get those 2.5 probes will depend entirely on the wall you force him to construct.
If they can be gotten, then I think it is a better opening since it runs no risk of the natural pylon block & 3 cannons. I will commit myself to analyzing the protoss response & calculating its economics at some point.
Thanks for the response Osiris =) Very insightful... if there's a 500 mineral difference at the 10-minute mark, that is a factor worth considering in the opening, although as you stated 11pool is safe vs any pylon/cannoning of the natural. Also, do you know the tradeoff between 11pool 19hatch vs 11pool 21hatch? I have not heard of that variation. This is the opener I typically use:
+ Show Spoiler +
11OL
11pool
drone to 15
at pool completion, extractor trick to get queen + 4 lings
When lings finish, kill probe at expansion/secure expansion, take 4 lings and pressure toss front
In my experience I will get in if the toss goes nexus-first and is not conscientious about walling off, or if they go forge-first and forgo a cannon for some reason. At this point, it's very easy to either stop mining for a significant amount of time or pick off 3-4 probes. This early-on in the game that gives you a huge advantage, but vs a decent opponent you can only really count on them being forced to temporarily build an extra building until their cannon finishes, at which point you back off and take map control. This seems to put me on even footing with my opponent in general, and it does force toss to make some small concessions in his build (nexus-first with extra building/cancel seems optimal). In this case I doubt it would make up for the 500 minerals lost by the 10-minute mark.
However as to your other points, as you stated it's much easier to harass a 14/15pool 16hatch opening, even with the probe just running around to deny the expansion for a little while (and throwing down a pylon). Small factors like this seem like they could hurt the build enough to make it equivalent/worse than 11pool/19hatch, not sure. Still I'm surprised I do not see this more often in high-level games... it seems like zergs are just allowed to put down their hatch in this opening without any real probe harass other than a few seconds of hatch-blocking.
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decemvre (zerg progamer) does 12pool 16queen, then 2 sets of ling with double extractor trick, then 20hatch
Advantages:
- You can do anything u can do with 14pool, you are not hindered in any way (he did Stephano 200/200 build to demonstrate and I remember it being under 11:30)
- The game isn't random depending on whether protoss pylonblocks your nat or not - which is good practice and its nice to not rely on coinflip
Disadvantages
- 14pool ends up ahead if protoss doesn't pylonblock natural
edit: never assume your 4lings do any damage to protoss, they shouldnt and you should play the game out as if they never would do damage
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On September 20 2012 05:15 NOOBALOPSE wrote:
i remember nestea did 12 pool 19 hatch in a GSL match. It actually timed out perfectly when I played it. I think 12 pool 19 hatch will be best cause you get an early queen and that way you make the pylon block basically useless and deny any cannon rush, force an earlier cannon from the protoss, AND you get the three hatches super easy.
THERE ARE 0 LARVAE BLOCKS WHEN DOING 12 POOL 19 HATCH! (this is important that's why I'm yelling at you :p). There is a small one if you do 11 overpool 18 hatch though.
He did it once, a long time ago, as an aggressive build, i believe. You don't deny any cannon rush either, if Toss cannon rushes you and you don't react exactly the same as if you were going 15 pool or even hatch first, you lose. You also can still be ramp blocked.
Please do not post bad information like this, it can misinform a lot of people who may be looking for answers.
The point about larva blocks makes no sense and is inconsequential. Who cares if there are 0 larva blocks. Doesn't really help if your economy is much further behind. If you really cared, you can time out things like queens and overlords with any type of opener to avoid 'larva blocks' rather than do a radical build.
decemvre (zerg progamer) does 12pool 16queen, then 2 sets of ling with double extractor trick, then 20hatch
http://www.twitch.tv/quanticdecemvre/b/332051855
He does it as an aggressive opener, not as a macro opener. If he does not do damage because toss responds properly, then he would be way behind. As a macro opener, 12 pool is terrible.
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i think we have to stop thinking and go away from the mindset that pylon block = death, which is not true. However, the true response to a 3 pylon block is not to pull drones, but teching up to roaches and put him on the defensive side while you double expand behind the pressure. Therefore ultimately it evens out.
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14 pool is called more economical than 11 pool, but if you gas trick 11 overpool (not sure what timings you were talking about) that should not be the case. 14 pool will have better short term economy, but due to the additional larva, 11 overpool should be equal or better economy in the long run (as long as it doesn't make lings or something to put it "behind")
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Dude I think you are making something that is really, really simple, way too complicated.
- Patrol a drone at ~16 supply to prevent ramp blocks. It doesnt matter what your opening is, you need to patrol a drone to deny a ramp block.
- Pull drones to stop a cannon rush, no matter what opener you do. The quicker lings come out just means the less time toss has to cannon rush, but they still won't be out in time when a cannon rush starts.
- the later the pool (up to about 15) the better you are economically and quicker you can expand to nat and third. earlier pools dont leave you dead because of the early queen, but it's still behind.
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14 pool is called more economical than 11 pool, but if you gas trick 11 overpool (not sure what timings you were talking about) that should not be the case. 14 pool will have better short term economy, but due to the additional larva, 11 overpool should be equal or better economy in the long run (as long as it doesn't make lings or something to put it "behind")
jdseemoreglass specifically stated in that thread that this is only about 1 base. If you ever plan to expand, 14 pool is way better economically. This was back when it wasn't viable to expand in ZvZ earlygame (or rather, that was the metagame).
In both the short run and long run, 11 pool is way behind 14 pool. 11 pool is better if you are planning to do a 1 base ling play, but otherwise 14 pool is better if you ever plan to expand (or make a roach warren, for that matter).
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What does the term ocannoning mean?
When you play 14(15)pool/16hatch protoss should almost always pylon block your nat. With 11overpool that is not possible. Does anyone know how the ecomics play out if this happens?
I have seen 11 overlord 19 hatch a few times in GSL. I believe one of them was Nestea doing it. Don't remember which games those were though.
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On September 20 2012 08:43 Belial88 wrote:
jdseemoreglass specifically stated in that thread that this is only about 1 base.
Which thread? there's more than one that he's made, and the one I'm referring to is with regards to expanding at 18. As far as I know all the comparisons made with 11 overpool were for pool-first builds, not just 1-base builds (perhaps you confused them?). 14 pool works well as a 1-base build because it gets good economy early on; the 11 overpool takes time to catch up because of the lower mineral count but higher larva count
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On September 20 2012 08:53 ulfryc wrote:
What does the term ocannoning mean?
Ocannoning = Offensive cannoning
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On September 20 2012 07:27 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 06:33 osiris17 wrote:
There is something on pros and cons the OP doesn't mention:
14 hatch 16 pool:
con - susceptible to 1 pylon block on the hatch @ natural followed up by 3 cannons @ natural; forces 12 drones to be pulled & cancels cannons, putting protoss ahead economically
11 pool ~21 hatch:
pro - no need to pull drones to deal with above proxy cannons @ natural, lings will arrive in time
The difference between a perfectly executed macro for 11 pool 21 hatch vs 14 pool 16 hatch build is 10 food @ the 10 minute mark (I tested this multiple times), and having about 500 less total resources mined (5 roaches). Considering how quickly you are mining resources at the 10 minute mark, and you've mined over 10k resources by this point, it is a significant but not unjustifiable difference.
So determining whether this is economical will depend on whether pressuring the protoss results in reducing his total accumulated resources by 500 @ 10:00; and also considering the potential for the proxy cannons @ natural & how that may potentially set the 14 pool 16 hatch opening behind.
I suspect it is economical but I am not intimately familiar with the protoss openings enough to know for certain. It may be potentially advantageous depending on how safe the protoss opponent opens. It will vary with how easily the map may be walled, too. How much they must delay probes to block the lings from entering, etc. And what I can do if my lings do enter his base, can I drone up higher in different circumstances? Probably.
It will take somewhere around 2.0-2.5 probes worth of delay to make it approach economical. Since your pressure will begin around 3:30 (estimation), and full saturation of the protoss base will occur around 9:30 (estimation), 6 minutes of 2 probes not mining = 400 resources, 2.5 = 500.
BUT you still have to factor in whether the protoss gets an advantage from those earlier buildings (possibly an earlier core). That may or may not prove to be important. I'll have to look at the finances of the protoss build to know, and identify which builds I am concerned about.
Afterwards... dont forget to factor in the potential 3 cannon proxy rush @ natural.
It will also be slightly more economical on maps with distant 3rds, by ~30 minerals or so. : D
The 11 pool is promising. Whether you can get those 2.5 probes will depend entirely on the wall you force him to construct.
If they can be gotten, then I think it is a better opening since it runs no risk of the natural pylon block & 3 cannons. I will commit myself to analyzing the protoss response & calculating its economics at some point. Thanks for the response Osiris =) Very insightful... if there's a 500 mineral difference at the 10-minute mark, that is a factor worth considering in the opening, although as you stated 11pool is safe vs any pylon/cannoning of the natural. Also, do you know the tradeoff between 11pool 19hatch vs 11pool 21hatch? I have not heard of that variation. This is the opener I typically use:
That is the correct build - 11 pool 19 hatch. If I remember I used to get my 3rd hatch @ 36 after the ovi @ 36. Not sure when I got my 3rd queen.. whenever was ideal for not sacrificing drones. Havent done this build in a while, but I may revisit it.
On September 20 2012 07:27 Defenestrator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
11OL
11pool
drone to 15
at pool completion, extractor trick to get queen + 4 lings
When lings finish, kill probe at expansion/secure expansion, take 4 lings and pressure toss front
In my experience I will get in if the toss goes nexus-first and is not conscientious about walling off, or if they go forge-first and forgo a cannon for some reason. At this point, it's very easy to either stop mining for a significant amount of time or pick off 3-4 probes. This early-on in the game that gives you a huge advantage, but vs a decent opponent you can only really count on them being forced to temporarily build an extra building until their cannon finishes, at which point you back off and take map control. This seems to put me on even footing with my opponent in general, and it does force toss to make some small concessions in his build (nexus-first with extra building/cancel seems optimal). In this case I doubt it would make up for the 500 minerals lost by the 10-minute mark. However as to your other points, as you stated it's much easier to harass a 14/15pool 16hatch opening, even with the probe just running around to deny the expansion for a little while (and throwing down a pylon). Small factors like this seem like they could hurt the build enough to make it equivalent/worse than 11pool/19hatch, not sure. Still I'm surprised I do not see this more often in high-level games... it seems like zergs are just allowed to put down their hatch in this opening without any real probe harass other than a few seconds of hatch-blocking.
When I tested the 14 p 16 hatch against the 11 pool I built my 2nd hatch @ the 3rd for consistencies sake.
I don't count on getting in to the base. If I do get in, I expect to capitalize on what I scout to make it financially worthwhile. Getting into his base is a major victory and I think worth the resources.
If the toss is conscientious about walling off, they sacrifice probes to do so. I'm not sure how much they sacrifice. Smaller maps with wider ramps more, larger maps with smaller ramps less. 1 probe is constructed every 20 seconds. So to delay him 2.5 probes worth of construction, you must delay him by a total of 50 seconds construction time considering both nexus's: the delay in building the natural nexus added to the halting of production at the original nexus, in order to save up money for the wall; not counting delayed chrono accumulation & some other factors like having to deal with more early zealots, and all this. I am fairly confident this ~2.5 probe delay happens on some maps. With nexus first it will be more difficult, but nexus first will also delay the cannon. Depending on the map size you may even be able to kill a building & get in to his base before a cannon completes. But I will examine it closely, including nexus 1st & all the variations.
As for the earlier core / gateway / etc., still needs considering whether its relevant. I will get back to this thread, since I wana know for sure...
Off the top of my head the map this would be the strongest on would be Antiga with a very wide natural, 4 base scouting distance, and relatively short rush distance.
One thing which just occured to me though, a soft counter to this, is the protoss has the option upon scouting your 11 pool to save up his chrono boost until after he has completed his wall, his probes building slower & thus minimizing the down time on his main nexus... So that also demands consideration
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Okay so I am going to keep testing this and post my results in here, so that I can finally get to the bottom of this. Because it's bugged me for a while but I've never put in the effort to figure it out with absolute certainty which is better.
I don't have time to test this extensively right now, that will be for tomorrow.
But there is this scrap of information. In a preliminary test, the time period from the protoss initial delay of probe production (for beginning building placement of the wall) until 44 worker saturation (2 on each mineral patch & 3 on all 4 gas) is about 4 minutes long.
After that mark I am willing to count the ~3 minutes left before 10:00, while the player approaches absolute saturation, as part of the loss in probe mining efficiency. But this also requires I consider the Protoss priorities. If they are staying at 44 probes and attacking me, this period should not be considered since no further saturation is being pursued, no potential gain is lost through delay. Thus if the Protoss is 2 base allining you, he has more of an edge, but if he is 3 basing you, his advantage is dulled.
For this problem I will assume he is taking a 3rd; at least probing up to 60 probes in some fashion, since I also assume I can hold all 2 base builds which stay at 44 probes. even if I am minorly 100 resources more behind. It takes 2:40 to build the 16 more probes, moving from 44 to 60 for absolute saturation of 2 bases, and the extra probes are mining at half efficiency during that time.
So 4:00 delay plus 2:40 / 2 = 5:20; 5:20 / (40 minerals per minute x # of probes protoss is delayed) = total minerals protoss loses, not counting a few other minor factors which will be considered later (changed chrono boost, earlier core & zealots & so fourth).
So rounding it to 5:00, a 2.5 probe delay loses 500 resources.
Also, in the preliminary test (this is just sort of precursory) the total amount of time probe production was delayed in order to construct a wall was just about 1:00 (which amounts to over a 2.5 probe delay). From a quick glance this appears to remain the same regardless of the map, since following a 3 building wall (2 gates a forge & a cannon) a pylon must be built immediately in order to facilitate probe production; on a larger map this pylon may be part of the wall but this is irrelevant. This is true however the opponent opens, whether it be with nexus 1st or forge 1st.
TLDR: 2.5 probe delay is indeed the goal, and the current analysis shows this is achieved; infact exceeded even against a nexus first, IF the opponent full walls (which he should, and you should make sure he does). The build looks extremely promising to me now but a more thorough analysis is still needed.
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Thanks for your work on this, Osiris =) Looking forward to your more extensive results.
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I happened to run into this thread (I don't play Z) but I know Z players are very calculated in early economy management, and I've had this question for a long time. It's not exactly on point to the thread topic, but it's somewhat related so if someone can answer it I'd appreciate it.
The question is simple: Assuming NR10, is there difference between hatch-first and pool-first? Let's say you're going for 2 base saturation and only ling speed by 10 minute mark. Again, no attack or any army production for that period.
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On September 20 2012 16:07 usethis2 wrote:
I happened to run into this thread (I don't play Z) but I know Z players are very calculated in early economy management, and I've had this question for a long time. It's not exactly on point to the thread topic, but it's somewhat related so if someone can answer it I'd appreciate it.
The question is simple: Assuming NR10, is there difference between hatch-first and pool-first? Let's say you're going for 2 base saturation and only ling speed by 10 minute mark. Again, no attack or any army production for that period.
Doesnt really make sense to look at it this way. Everything is always relative to what your opponent does, and the timing of your third would also be an important aspect to take into consideration.
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On September 20 2012 08:31 Belial88 wrote:
He does it as an aggressive opener, not as a macro opener. If he does not do damage because toss responds properly, then he would be way behind. As a macro opener, 12 pool is terrible.
http://drop.sc/255829
I played this as a test against the computer a while ago. The details of what I am doing and the execution might skew the result at the 8:00 minute mark (I make roaches at the end), but it should show that you can get into the 70s quite handily with 12 pool.
I also found the replay against nexus first I mentioned: http://drop.sc/255830. My macro is really bad in this game and Protoss is probably overreacting, but it should still show that 4 lings off of 12 pool with 16 drones behind them either get into the base or are able to kill the forge before the cannon kills all lings (assuming 17 nexus). That's probably why most Protosses go for forge first if they see an earlier pool.
Also thanks to osiris for doing research on nexus first vs. forge first. I will take a closer look at that soon.
And I am sorry if I have turned this into a "why 11/12 pool isn't that bad" thread, but I guess since almost all pro players do 14/15 pool as standard, it should be clear that that can't be bad.
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On September 20 2012 07:27 Defenestrator wrote:
In my experience I will get in if the toss goes nexus-first and is not conscientious about walling off, or if they go forge-first and forgo a cannon for some reason. At this point, it's very easy to either stop mining for a significant amount of time or pick off 3-4 probes. This early-on in the game that gives you a huge advantage, (...)
Not entirely true. 4 Lings = 2 Drones anyway, not counted in the mining they would have done if they weren't lings.
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Ok so this test will comprise two parts.. first the complete analysis and then empirical confirmation which I will do later. Here is the analysis. This is tested against nexus 1st which scouts @ 9, it will be functionally the same against forge first builds.
Times your zerglings arrive at protoss base with an 11 pool vary with map. Given a bit of time to deal with the probe at your natural, it varies from ~4:00 on maps like ohana to ~4:10 on maps like daybreak.
To have a wall complete @ 4:00, probe construction is delayed from 2:50 - ~4:05 for a typical build. Which is 1:15 total time delayed and 3.75 probes worth of delay. But I am also subtracting 0:10 from that, since a standard ladder opening with a scout has about 10 seconds worth of probe delay already in it to respond to a 14 pool. So 3.25 probes is the real delay.
The protoss may be able to squeeze 1 more probe out on large maps where he can delay his gateway full wall by a tad, because your zergling arrival time is delayed by ~10 seconds. In these cases probe delay will be reduced from 1:15 to 0:55, and probes delayed @ ~2.75. But delaying the gateway, if opening nexus first, runs a real risk of the zerglings killing the gateway before the cannon completes. I'll have to actually try that on ladder. But I am not concerned about it that much; because either way, if they do get away with this, the zerg is still fine and breaks a tad above even.
The only way the 11 pool is at a disadvantage is if the opponent does not scout and opens nexus 1st. In these scenarios there will only be 25 seconds of probe construction delay due to the extra minerals from not scouting being delegated to probe construction. So this is a compounded financial bonus from not scouting. Since almost every Protoss scouts on ladder I am not concerned about this very much. But in a tournament setting it may be relevant. 25 seconds leaves the zerg ~1 delayed probe behind the goal. But this effect will occur regardless of map size; 25 second delay is the floor of what is possible.
I am going to assume he scouts since not scouting on ladder is an invitation to get 6 pooled. And if he doesn't scout your 11 pool at all, not even with a late scout, you will still surprise him and force him to pull some probes, and that will catch you up a bit. The ideal counter for the protoss is probably a late scout after nexus. Anyway I am going to overlook this for now, I may revisit it for a 12 scout / 16 scout later.
Saving up chrono upon scouting the pool is not the proper reaction since it overstockpiles. So no need to consider chrono.
The early gateway from the faster walloff reaction is layed down at 3:30 compared with a typical 4:00. At this point the 11 pool comes ~.25-1.25 workers ahead of a standard protoss build compared to what a 14 pool would by 10:00 in most circumstances. The rest of the analysis will be in calculating the effects this free early gateway has on the zerg, and if they are enough to make the 11 pool not financially worth it.
Just thinking ahead, the earlier gateway will help stargate openings, warpgate rushes, and early gateway pressure the most. The immortal allin & blink allins come later, and they dont rely on a quick warpgate. They rely more on the forces being massed.
The early gateway pressure will actually require him to cut probes or delay his core in order to take advantage of his earlier gateway; otherwise it may as well be a 4:00 gateway. Delaying the core is more intuitive... If he delays his core, you at least know there isnt a super fast warpgate timing coming. But a 2 zealot 1 stalker pressure can come 30 seconds earlier than normal. So this will require 30 seconds earlier 4 zerglings.. it's a negligible expense but it amounts to about a minute worth of mining time which is 40 minerals. But it doesn't permanently cut into the drone count since this pressure comes now or later. If he keeps up the pressure with another stalker it may get interesting, but the more he invests in this the more it indicates a warpgate timing.. Also the stalkers harassing you will give you a free ovi scout of his base. A warpgate timing with a normal core timing like this can be stopped easily so I am not worried about it.
The earlier stargate opening may require a slightly earlier evo but that initself is a minor expense. The spores are reactive and will come earlier too. That altogether compounds into about 2:00 of mining time , about 80 minerals. Hydras will be 30 seconds slower. So the opponent can harass you more freely for a longer period. The advantage of this is larger if he opened 4 phoenix, not quite as important if he went 2 phoenix / 1 void, since the phoenix / void are usually driven off due to damage received by queens & not hydras. But the opponents earlier stargate means his gateways will be slower, and this means he will have trouble expanding if you churn out some lings upon scouting stargate. At this point I think its impossible to say for certain what comes out ahead. In this regard I'd do the build just to scramble the opponents timings up.
The earlier potential warpgate rush is also a concern. I will have to test how much earlier an gateway timing comes. Protoss is delayed himself, gateways may be delayed. There are some 4 gateway rushes which will probably be the best example of the effect. But having the earlier queen from the 11 pool may give you more larva at that time, offsetting the problem. I will post back with more results later.
At this point I am going to open 11 pool every game because of the economical advantage; and the safety from 1 pylon & 3 cannons delaying the natural.
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I thought 12pool 19 hatch is better?
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A while back someone posted a thread with graphed analysis of how the various pools performed relative to eachother. 11 pool outperformed 12 pool & 10 pool. 11 pool also allows earlier pressure against the toss, forcing more probe delay & earlier wall.
For just the finances it is possible the 12 pool is better, it doesnt seem to make sense and I didnt conduct the tests myself.
The timing for pressuring toss is very critical, a 10 second delay will mean they squeeze out another probe. And that would make the whole build not worth it.
So unless the 12 pool results in 200 more total resources accumulated @ 10:00 than an 11 pool (represents 1 probe worth of difference from later pressure), it isn't worth it.
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On September 20 2012 08:31 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +decemvre (zerg progamer) does 12pool 16queen, then 2 sets of ling with double extractor trick, then 20hatch http://www.twitch.tv/quanticdecemvre/b/332051855He does it as an aggressive opener, not as a macro opener. If he does not do damage because toss responds properly, then he would be way behind. As a macro opener, 12 pool is terrible.
He does it as an aggressive opener, not as a macro opener. - no did you even watch the vods you linked? :|
If he does not do damage because toss responds properly, then he would be way behind. - no
As a macro opener, 12 pool is terrible. - no
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Anything the pros don't do, Belial doesn't approve. ; D
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Guys please be specific to the pool timing you mention. There is 11/10 pool, 11/10 overpool (which i believe osiris17 did his great analysis on), 12/10 pool, 12/10 overpool and 9ol 12 pool (which yugioh did in gsl). They all play out differently so please specify what you are talkin about.
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11 pool > overlord > 11 pool 15 queen / 4 lings / extractor trick > 19 hatch > 18 overlord
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Anything the pros don't do, Belial doesn't approve. ; D
Pros don't do it. You take one game a lesser-known pro has done, once, completely out of context. Here's a link on zergs going 14-15 pool ZvP:
everyrecentstarcraft2tournament.com
Btw, overpool is overlord before 11 pool.
and yea, kind of. There are a ton of pros out there, hundreds, if not thousands, and they know better than me and you. They do what they do because they test it out, at a very high level, with a very detailed look at what is better than what. Everyone wants new strategies, but there's a reason pros don't open 11 pool as a macro opener every game. If you want to recommend it as an aggressive opener that's fine, but it's going to be behind 14-15 pool economically.
He does it as an aggressive opener, not as a macro opener. - no did you even watch the vods you linked? :|
If he does not do damage because toss responds properly, then he would be way behind. - no
As a macro opener, 12 pool is terrible. - no
No, in every game he takes his 4 lings and runs them in to toss' base. His third is also significantly delayed.
Discussing zerg openers is fine, but this topic has already been discussed and hashed out... like 2 years ago. There's a reason none of the pros do anything besides 6/7/8 pool and 14/15 pool in zvp. Go into a YABOT and test it out.
TLDR: 2.5 probe delay is indeed the goal, and the current analysis shows this is achieved; infact exceeded even against a nexus first, IF the opponent full walls (which he should, and you should make sure he does). The build looks extremely promising to me now but a more thorough analysis is still needed.
You are down a lot more than 2.5 drones for doing this vs 15 pool, and I wouldn't say that's an accurate way to put it, since toss is just delaying workers to get something the need later on anyways. Whereas when you do 11 pool you aren't doing that, you are hurting yourself economically for time. Toss is just spending the same money, somewhere else.
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A while back someone posted a thread with graphed analysis of how the various pools performed relative to eachother. 11 pool outperformed 12 pool & 10 pool. 11 pool also allows earlier pressure against the toss, forcing more probe delay & earlier wall.
For just the finances it is possible the 12 pool is better, it doesnt seem to make sense and I didnt conduct the tests myself.
The timing for pressuring toss is very critical, a 10 second delay will mean they squeeze out another probe. And that would make the whole build not worth it.
So unless the 12 pool results in 200 more total resources accumulated @ 10:00 than an 11 pool (represents 1 probe worth of difference from later pressure), it isn't worth it.
That was 12 pool double extractor trick, and overpool, not a 9 overlord 12 pool and 11 pool before overlord.
You can't justify a build because the opponent may overreact either, that's ridiculous. Why not just go 6 pool, ???, win every zvp because "forcing more probe delay"? Because if Toss reacts properly, the probe delay will be a minor hit compared to the hit you are taking for doing the aggression. This is generally true with all pressures/all-ins. Why not roach/ling all-in Toss every game? It surely delays their probes, tech, economy, right? Because if toss responds correctly, Zerg is going to take a much larger cost.
Similarly, yea, toss may delay a probe or two against 11 pool, but you are going to be down 4-6 workers and a delayed third compared to Toss who might be down 2 probes (and he makes a quicker gateway, so it's not all bad either).
The build is not worth it unless Toss doesn't react properly (or doesnt scout). Which happens all the time, I'm sure, and I'm sure many Toss won't think anything suspicious of a pool planted before 2:00 or is done before 3:00, and even if you get lings into Toss' base, I'm not so sure it would be worth it as long as Toss plays correctly. You gotta actually kill quite a few probes, if you make 6 lings than you need to kill like at least 4 probes to make it just even, which i dont see happening.
i think the way you compare stuff is kind of weird too. Compare the total money mined in builds vs eachother, and drone counts.
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On September 21 2012 00:49 Belial88 wrote:
Similarly, yea, toss may delay a probe or two against 11 pool, but you are going to be down 4-6 workers and a delayed third compared to Toss who might be down 2 probes (and he makes a quicker gateway, so it's not all bad either).
Tbh, you are totally making up that 4-6 workers thing. I'll give it one more try:
Since both builds make all larvae into drones besides 2-4 lings and a fixed number of overlords, drone production equals larva production. So you should be able to show the supposed 4-6 workers difference by looking at hatchery and queen timings. For 15 pool, I'll take the first game of Symbol vs. Seed of today's GSL on Cloud Kingdom, and for 12 pool the replay I provided.
Hatch timings (15 pool): ~2:45, ~4:00,
Hatch timings (12 pool): ~3:30, ~4:15
Queen timings (15 pool): ~3:10, ~4:25, ~5:20
Queen timings (12 pool): ~2:50, ~3:46, ~5:06
So 12 pool in these sample games loses one minute of hatchery-based larva production, which equals 4. Queens, though, are much earlier, 1:13 in total, which equals an approximate plus of 6-7 larvae. Then there is a small loss through the fact that the second queen has to travel to the natural and that there are brief larva blocks in the main after putting down the third, but that isn't more than 2-3 larvae. Once your natural kicks in, you can make all your larvae into drones.
Which mechanism then causes that 15 pool makes so many more drones than 12 pool openers (or 11 pool, for that matter, there isn't a big difference between those two)?
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Osiris thanks for your detailed testing =) Your conclusions are pretty in-line with what I suspected to be the case from my own experience with 11pool. I guess I won't be switching over anytime soon then, as I feel pretty comfortable with the opening and it seems solid =)
Ulfryc I think the differences between the builds you mention is very small (like 2-3 s). I use 11OL/11pool into 19hatch. I tested this vs 9OL/11pool once and there was basically no difference. I'm not sure but the ideas behind all these variations is the same (lings before hatch to secure hatch easily).
As far as lings in their base, this is a complete game-changer. In customs vs mid/high masters (as well as ladder matches vs low-mid masters), if I get lings in their base I've won every single time. I could go into why this is, but suffice to say if you micro properly and they themselves don't have HuK-level micro, you will end up miles ahead. Toss should do everything in their power to prevent this (and it is preventable, as has been discussed above).
One way to compare 11pool vs 14pool is similar to opening forge-first vs nexus-first: forge-first counters 15hatch because you can easily ocannon the Z player with him falling further behind than you. 11pool is similar vs nexus-first: it basically counters nexus-first because when you pressure with the 4 lings, you either draw even or he falls further behind. 11pool vs 6pool is much better because it's not a coinflip opening... worst result with proper play is you come out even against the toss, as Osiris has been so kind to analyze for us. If toss opens gateway-first, 6/7/8pool flat out loses.
So why do pros do 14/15pool into 16hatch then? Well first, as has been pointed out, it is better economically if zerg doesn't pressure toss. Second, either A. Pros have a response to every type of cannon aggression with this opening that puts them even/ahead and/or B. they don't care about the 3-pylon block because this can't happen in tourneys anyway and they don't give a shit about ladder.
Does anyone have any input on the proper response to common cannon openers from toss vs 14pool/16hatch? For example, are lings out in time to stop a double-pylon wall behind natural minerals with a cannon after hatch starts? And is there any way to counter a 3-pylon block without patrolling a drone? I haven't seen any pros do this, so I'm assuming they know how to deal with it (unless like I said they just don't care because it's not possible in tourneys).
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omg, the research has been done several times.
I think 11 pool is viable and PROS DO PLAY 11 POOL. E.g. Stephano does it sometimes, Lowely opens 11 pool frequently. 11 pool is an excellent allround ladder opening. If your opponent is likely to play greedy, 11 pool may be a slight waste, as you cannot do any real pressure, but this is by no means game deciding.
A huge factor is your 3rd and tech timing. An earlier pool gives you more larvae early. In order to not idle larvae production you are forced to spend minerals for drone production, so you will barely bank minerals for tec/hatches.
If you plan to 3 base at 4'10, an 11 pool might not the right opening. However a lot of zerg players tend to go for a 36..40 supply 3rd which is fine with an 11 pool. In this case an 11 pool is slightly ahead over 14+ pools in drone production.
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On September 21 2012 00:40 Belial88 wrote:Pros don't do it. You take one game a lesser-known pro has done, once, completely out of context. Here's a link on zergs going 14-15 pool ZvP: everyrecentstarcraft2tournament.com Btw, overpool is overlord before 11 pool. and yea, kind of. There are a ton of pros out there, hundreds, if not thousands, and they know better than me and you. They do what they do because they test it out, at a very high level, with a very detailed look at what is better than what. Everyone wants new strategies, but there's a reason pros don't open 11 pool as a macro opener every game. If you want to recommend it as an aggressive opener that's fine, but it's going to be behind 14-15 pool economically. Show nested quote +He does it as an aggressive opener, not as a macro opener. - no did you even watch the vods you linked? :|
If he does not do damage because toss responds properly, then he would be way behind. - no
As a macro opener, 12 pool is terrible. - no No, in every game he takes his 4 lings and runs them in to toss' base. His third is also significantly delayed. Discussing zerg openers is fine, but this topic has already been discussed and hashed out... like 2 years ago. There's a reason none of the pros do anything besides 6/7/8 pool and 14/15 pool in zvp. Go into a YABOT and test it out. Show nested quote +TLDR: 2.5 probe delay is indeed the goal, and the current analysis shows this is achieved; infact exceeded even against a nexus first, IF the opponent full walls (which he should, and you should make sure he does). The build looks extremely promising to me now but a more thorough analysis is still needed. You are down a lot more than 2.5 drones for doing this vs 15 pool, and I wouldn't say that's an accurate way to put it, since toss is just delaying workers to get something the need later on anyways. Whereas when you do 11 pool you aren't doing that, you are hurting yourself economically for time. Toss is just spending the same money, somewhere else.
There are plenty of things that pros don't do that are good, and there are plenty of things that pros do that are BAD. For example:
IdrA always puts 20 drones on any expansion before rallying to different minerals. It has been proved that 16 drones and then rallying your hatch is the way to get the most minerals.
Another;
Pros make the gasses at 6:30 in their main/nat which means that they have to get at least 22 drones on their main before rallying. This means that the rally is late and therefore they are not mining efficiently in the time that they have 22 drones on their main and are waiting for the gasses to finish. Making 2 at the third and one at the natural sounds most optimal to me because units sometimes target buildings instead of units which makes your army last longer and an easier defense.
See, pros do things wrong sometimes.
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On September 21 2012 02:17 velvex wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:49 Belial88 wrote:
Similarly, yea, toss may delay a probe or two against 11 pool, but you are going to be down 4-6 workers and a delayed third compared to Toss who might be down 2 probes (and he makes a quicker gateway, so it's not all bad either). Tbh, you are totally making up that 4-6 workers thing. I'll give it one more try: Since both builds make all larvae into drones besides 2-4 lings and a fixed number of overlords, drone production equals larva production. So you should be able to show the supposed 4-6 workers difference by looking at hatchery and queen timings. For 15 pool, I'll take the first game of Symbol vs. Seed of today's GSL on Cloud Kingdom, and for 12 pool the replay I provided. Hatch timings (15 pool): ~2:45, ~4:00, Hatch timings (12 pool): ~3:30, ~4:15 Queen timings (15 pool): ~3:10, ~4:25, ~5:20 Queen timings (12 pool): ~2:50, ~3:46, ~5:06 So 12 pool in these sample games loses one minute of hatchery-based larva production, which equals 4. Queens, though, are much earlier, 1:13 in total, which equals an approximate plus of 6-7 larvae. Then there is a small loss through the fact that the second queen has to travel to the natural and that there are brief larva blocks in the main after putting down the third, but that isn't more than 2-3 larvae. Once your natural kicks in, you can make all your larvae into drones. Which mechanism then causes that 15 pool makes so many more drones than 12 pool openers (or 11 pool, for that matter, there isn't a big difference between those two)?
Anybody able to execute a build half way decent can veryfy, that 11/12 pool gets out more drones early on than a 14/15 pool because delaying queen lets you lose one larvae each 10 seconds, delaying hatch costs 1 larvae per 15 seconds.
Also i'd like to mention, that expansion timing is frequently dictated by the timing of your first lings, as pylon block is frequent, so the early hatch timing of 14/15 pool is theoretical 
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On September 20 2012 16:16 Vermiiifuuge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 16:07 usethis2 wrote:
I happened to run into this thread (I don't play Z) but I know Z players are very calculated in early economy management, and I've had this question for a long time. It's not exactly on point to the thread topic, but it's somewhat related so if someone can answer it I'd appreciate it.
The question is simple: Assuming NR10, is there difference between hatch-first and pool-first? Let's say you're going for 2 base saturation and only ling speed by 10 minute mark. Again, no attack or any army production for that period. Doesnt really make sense to look at it this way. Everything is always relative to what your opponent does, and the timing of your third would also be an important aspect to take into consideration.
Well I'm just theorycrafting. yes, it won't happen in real world. But there isn't much harm in theoricrafting for the sake of curiosity.
So, if I may reiterate the question,
Assuming there will be no attack or army production whatsoever (except getting ling speed), and assuming there is no 3rd base involved (you're just working off the main and the natural), which one gives you better economy at ~ 10 minute mark? Pool-first or Hatch-first?
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On September 21 2012 00:40 Belial88 wrote:Pros don't do it. You take one game a lesser-known pro has done, once, completely out of context. Here's a link on zergs going 14-15 pool ZvP: everyrecentstarcraft2tournament.com
You know, it's one thing to give your uneducated opinion on a topic. You have that right. It's another thing to ignore an essay worth of evidence on the topic you're addressing. That's also your right. But do not presume to correct me after I've spent 4 hours thoroughly testing this problem and arriving at an exact conclusion, and you've spent zero time examining that evidence, thinking critically, or doing any testing yourself; and to do so arrogantly.
You act like Pros are of a higher God mind. Let's examine that.
Idra didnt use infestors until Mr. Bitter pointed out, while receiving coaching from Idra, that hey - infestors may work to hold off these tanks cliffing you on shakuras better than Mutas. Next thing you know Idra is experimenting with infestors, and replays are getting shown of it. Then the whole community starts using infestors, where before no one would use them. Then the pro scene catches on to the community trends, and everyone is using infestors instead of mutas. All of it began because Mr. Bitter stated the obvious solution to tanks cliffing the main on shakuras which I had realized months prior along with many others. But who of us who realized this solution had the courage to try it, and contradict the pros current way of playing? Not nearly as many who thought it.
In WC3 pro UD players neglected using banshees possession for 8 years in UD vs Orc. And for 8 years Orc was dominant over UD. The game evolved to a high degree of strategic complexity, but banshees were ignored and assumed to suck ass. The pro scene was competitive. It was alot like this game. Then finally, after the game had almost been abandoned by the general public, the matchup gets turned upside down as one well known UD pro decides to go banshees vs Orc. UD Vs Orc switches from Orc > UD to UD >>> Orc. Every pro then starts using banshees and fiends... It took them 8 years to finally try doing it and realize it worked and it worked WELL. So UD had been struggling against Orc for 8 years while the solution was staring them in the face.
Could it be anymore clear? This idolization of insight we've granted to the pros is a myth. They are good players and sure they have insight, but do not let that be an excuse to stop using your brain.
On September 21 2012 00:40 Belial88 wrote:
Btw, overpool is overlord before 11 pool.
I know?
On September 21 2012 00:40 Belial88 wrote:and yea, kind of. There are a ton of pros out there, hundreds, if not thousands, and they know better than me and you. They do what they do because they test it out, at a very high level, with a very detailed look at what is better than what. Everyone wants new strategies, but there's a reason pros don't open 11 pool as a macro opener every game. If you want to recommend it as an aggressive opener that's fine, but it's going to be behind 14-15 pool economically.
lol, if there are thousands of pros out there then I qualify as pro. Nice assumption on my skill level though.
All evidence has proven 11 pool ends up ahead economically in the majority of circumstances.
On September 21 2012 00:40 Belial88 wrote:No, in every game he takes his 4 lings and runs them in to toss' base. His third is also significantly delayed.
Discussing zerg openers is fine, but this topic has already been discussed and hashed out... like 2 years ago. There's a reason none of the pros do anything besides 6/7/8 pool and 14/15 pool in zvp. Go into a YABOT and test it out.
Stop alluding to vague reasons which you cannot articulate. There is more concrete evidence from testing in this thread which you didnt respond to then you yourself have probably ever conducted.
You are trying to read the pro players mind, but you don't know what he was thinking. You can insist that you know, but you don't. Fact is your story doesn't make sense. 12 pool is not a terrible macro opening, but it is a terrible aggressive build. Against any decent player the aggression stands little to no chance of inflicting damage. If aggression is the point of the build, then the build is a complete failure.
On September 21 2012 00:40 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +TLDR: 2.5 probe delay is indeed the goal, and the current analysis shows this is achieved; infact exceeded even against a nexus first, IF the opponent full walls (which he should, and you should make sure he does). The build looks extremely promising to me now but a more thorough analysis is still needed. You are down a lot more than 2.5 drones for doing this vs 15 pool, and I wouldn't say that's an accurate way to put it, since toss is just delaying workers to get something the need later on anyways. Whereas when you do 11 pool you aren't doing that, you are hurting yourself economically for time. Toss is just spending the same money, somewhere else.
You are down what averages to 2.5 workers over 5 minutes by doing the build (that is a simple summary - for more thorough summary read previous posts); a deficiency which is made up for by the pressure applied. The earlier queen is what allows for this irregularity. What the Protoss gets earlier is a gateway - 30 seconds earlier - already thoroughly addressed in the analysis. A core - potentially 30 seconds earlier - also already addressed. Everything you mentioned; every aspect of the protoss response has already been thoroughly addressed in the analysis.
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On September 21 2012 07:20 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 16:16 Vermiiifuuge wrote:On September 20 2012 16:07 usethis2 wrote:
I happened to run into this thread (I don't play Z) but I know Z players are very calculated in early economy management, and I've had this question for a long time. It's not exactly on point to the thread topic, but it's somewhat related so if someone can answer it I'd appreciate it.
The question is simple: Assuming NR10, is there difference between hatch-first and pool-first? Let's say you're going for 2 base saturation and only ling speed by 10 minute mark. Again, no attack or any army production for that period. Doesnt really make sense to look at it this way. Everything is always relative to what your opponent does, and the timing of your third would also be an important aspect to take into consideration. Well I'm just theorycrafting. yes, it won't happen in real world. But there isn't much harm in theoricrafting for the sake of curiosity. So, if I may reiterate the question, Assuming there will be no attack or army production whatsoever (except getting ling speed), and assuming there is no 3rd base involved (you're just working off the main and the natural), which one gives you better economy at ~ 10 minute mark? Pool-first or Hatch-first?
Hatch first by about 100 or 150 more minerals.
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So 12 pool in these sample games loses one minute of hatchery-based larva production, which equals 4. Queens, though, are much earlier, 1:13 in total, which equals an approximate plus of 6-7 larvae. Then there is a small loss through the fact that the second queen has to travel to the natural and that there are brief larva blocks in the main after putting down the third, but that isn't more than 2-3 larvae. Once your natural kicks in, you can make all your larvae into drones.
Counting potential larva is not an accurate way to gauge a build.... at all... theoretically you could just go 6 pool 10 hatch and have more larva. Comparing a pro game against a pro opponent, and your replay, doesn't seem to accurate either.
omg, the research has been done several times.
I think 11 pool is viable and PROS DO PLAY 11 POOL. E.g. Stephano does it sometimes, Lowely opens 11 pool frequently. 11 pool is an excellent allround ladder opening. If your opponent is likely to play greedy, 11 pool may be a slight waste, as you cannot do any real pressure, but this is by no means game deciding.
They all do is as an aggressive opening. What is being discussed here is using it as a macro opening, totally different.
If you plan to 3 base at 4'10, an 11 pool might not the right opening. However a lot of zerg players tend to go for a 36..40 supply 3rd which is fine with an 11 pool. In this case an 11 pool is slightly ahead over 14+ pools in drone production.
That doesn't make much sense. And short term gain in drones because you take a later third doesn't make the build better when in the long term it's worse. You could just run off 1 base and have alot more drones than any other opening for a certain amount of time (somewhere around 4-5 minute i believe; 11 pool is the better build if you are playing 1 base though).
There's a reason most pros take a third at ~20. If taking it at 36-40 resulted in better economy in the long term, everyone would just go 14 pool 40 third. It doesn't make much sense to say "well 11 pool is a better build because you take your hatch later". like what?
You want to take your third around 20ish (you should have 16 drones at main and nat when it finishes, roughly, so you are getting a benefit from an additional set of patches).
Just makes no sense to say "11 pool is ahead in production of 14 pool because you take a late third". I'm pretty sure all the pros go 14-15 pool 16h 21h because that results in the best economy 7-9:00+.
There are plenty of things that pros don't do that are good, and there are plenty of things that pros do that are BAD. For example:
IdrA always puts 20 drones on any expansion before rallying to different minerals. It has been proved that 16 drones and then rallying your hatch is the way to get the most minerals.
I don't know exactly what you mean. I was the person who 'proved' that rallying>maynarding (i didnt really prove it either, I claimed it after lots of testing, i didn't provide evidence, i just said it and pointed out thats what the best macro benchmark zergs have done). It's very context dependent, and that's just 1 pro. Some pros do things that are 'bad', but most pros do things correctly. There have been certain things, like for example korean pros going extractor trick for a year after WOL was released (and here and there some still do it), but for the most part they know what they are doing.
Pros make the gasses at 6:30 in their main/nat which means that they have to get at least 22 drones on their main before rallying. This means that the rally is late and therefore they are not mining efficiently in the time that they have 22 drones on their main and are waiting for the gasses to finish. Making 2 at the third and one at the natural sounds most optimal to me because units sometimes target buildings instead of units which makes your army last longer and an easier defense.
They are probably taking gases, where they take it, for more than that reason, like denial of scouting, or to screw with the Toss' head (ie taking all 4 gases at third and nat so toss can't tell if zerg is on 4 gas for mass roach/ling, or 6 gas for mutas, and maybe want to convince toss they are on 6 gas when they are only on 4, so maybe they mass cannons or macro hard against an impending roach max).
Also, taking gases in the main before X number of drones can be done for balancing worker count purposes. The main might be below 22 or whatever workers, but every base is probably down a certain number of workers. By subtracting 8 or 4 or whatever workers from a certain base, it may balance out mineral mining drones better, especially if they don't plan to get 6 gases anytime soon (as is the case when going fast third vs FFE). I don't think it's a clear "oh that's wrong".
There's also a million other factors pro's are doing what they do that I don't think the viewer would understand, as well. They are way more knowledgeable about the game. Granted, you might know a thing or two they don't know that's very niche, but that's kind of rare, and on something like this I'm pretty sure pros have a good reason for taking gases as they do.
Assuming there will be no attack or army production whatsoever (except getting ling speed), and assuming there is no 3rd base involved (you're just working off the main and the natural), which one gives you better economy at ~ 10 minute mark? Pool-first or Hatch-first?
Hatch first, definitely.
This has all been figured out already.
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Anyone interested in the 11 pool opening, read the evidence and decide for yourself/
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On September 21 2012 07:50 osiris17 wrote:
Anyone interested in the 11 pool opening, read the evidence and decide for yourself/
I'm with you Osiris, I linked your analysis in the OP.
I also asked a GM about this topic, and he said he follows the probe to prevent 3-pylon block, and in case it happens he just leaves because it doesn't happen in tourney play anyway. He opens 14pool/16hatch, but recommends 11pool/19hatch to be completely safe (how to react to 3-pylon block has been covered in this and other threads when opening 11pool/19hatch). From his input, it seems like it's a very good opening for ladder, at least.
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On September 21 2012 07:48 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +So 12 pool in these sample games loses one minute of hatchery-based larva production, which equals 4. Queens, though, are much earlier, 1:13 in total, which equals an approximate plus of 6-7 larvae. Then there is a small loss through the fact that the second queen has to travel to the natural and that there are brief larva blocks in the main after putting down the third, but that isn't more than 2-3 larvae. Once your natural kicks in, you can make all your larvae into drones. Counting potential larva is not an accurate way to gauge a build.... at all... theoretically you could just go 6 pool 10 hatch and have more larva.
No, you couldn't because a 6 pooling player sits on 3 larvae for an eternity and can't even afford a queen and a hatchery in a reasonable time, resulting in way smaller larva count. Theoretically and practically. So, not even your tongue-in-cheek argumentation is right in any way.
I think the strategy forum dilemma is striking here: too many people making random, unbased claims leads to you not being able to post frequently and take deviating opinions seriously at the same time, which leads to you ridiculing yourself in the rare case when someone makes a valid point. But it's okay if you disagree, I still like you, for the guides and the detailed advice you give. Still couldn't make it through your last post though, sorry!
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You know, it's one thing to give your uneducated opinion on a topic. You have that right. It's another thing to ignore an essay worth of evidence on the topic you're addressing. That's also your right. But do not presume to correct me after I've spent 4 hours thoroughly testing this problem and arriving at an exact conclusion, and you've spent zero time examining that evidence, thinking critically, or doing any testing yourself; and to do so arrogantly.
I have tested this, as well as many hours, for a lot more than 4 hours, about 2 years ago. Your testing method of comparing your replay to a pro replay, dissimilar third timings, and not even counting total minerals mined (total drone value + overlord value + queen value + mineral bank) or drone counts at 6,7,8 and 9 minutes is weird.
dra didnt use infestors until Mr. Bitter pointed out, while receiving coaching from Idra, that hey - infestors may work to hold off these tanks cliffing you on shakuras better than Mutas. Next thing you know Idra is experimenting with infestors, and replays are getting shown of it. Then the whole community starts using infestors, where before no one would use them. Then the pro scene catches on to the community trends, and everyone is using infestors instead of mutas. All of it began because Mr. Bitter stated the obvious solution to tanks cliffing the main on shakuras which I had realized months prior along with many others. But who of us who realized this solution had the courage to try it, and contradict the pros current way of playing? Not nearly as many who thought it.
Are you serious? It was not like this at all... The community used lots of infestors during 9 range NP while the pros started moving away from infestor play and into muta and mass roach/ling play. It was not because mr bitter said infestors are good lol. Shakuras was not in the map pool in tournament by that time either.
I seriously doubt metagame trends came out because mr bitter (no offense) or low level players started using infestors before the pros did.
lol, if there are thousands of pros out there then I qualify as pro. Nice assumption on my skill level though.
All evidence has proven 11 pool ends up ahead economically in the majority of circumstances.
Quite the contrary...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fc6j0.png)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464
14 pool is way more money. 11 pool is only better by drone count and only by 1 basing.
No, you couldn't because a 6 pooling player sits on 3 larvae for an eternity and can't even afford a queen and a hatchery in a reasonable time, resulting in way smaller larva count. Theoretically and practically. So, not even your tongue-in-cheek argumentation is right in any way.
I think the strategy forum dilemma is striking here: too many people making random, unbased claims leads to you not being able to post frequently and take deviating opinions seriously at the same time, which leads to you ridiculing yourself in the rare case when someone makes a valid point. But it's okay if you disagree, I still like you, for the guides and the detailed advice you give. Still couldn't make it through your last post though, sorry!
6 pooling sits on 3 larva because you are pooling them, you dont have to pool them. It was an exaggeration, but the basic idea of just get queen asap and omg more larva = better econ is ridiculous.
The strategy forum is full of people who don't use the search engine, and then they think they've come up with some great build and omg why are all the pros so stupid and bad for doing a worse build, then they get pissy when someone shows them evidence from 2 years ago showing why the community has long since moved on past this issue.
I've done a shitton of testing on 11 pool, I went 11 pool as my opener in all 3 match-ups for almost a year. The reason I'm so adamant about how shitty a build it is, is because I used it for so long.
His point is that 11 pool is better economically than 14 pool... and that's just wrong. He even states that the reason 11 pool is better than 14-15 pool is because you take a third at 40 supply and that's somehow better economically lol. Like wow, 14-15 pool with a 40 third must be a REALLY good build then.
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Belial is right, this was both tested and proven.
And unless you go 10pool before overlord you can't deny a pylon block like that. There's no reason to go 11 pool because of a 3 pylon block because you have to do the exact same thing to beat it in both scenarios, it does very little (read: almost nothing) to stop it. 11 pool isn't completely bad... As an aggressive opener. As a standard macro opening it is just inferior to a 14p from every test I've ever seen and from my experiences using the two.
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I feel like the 11 pool build is a very strong 2 base opener, I think that is where it really shines as a build. However if used in a fast 3 hatch build I think it is outclassed in the third being so much later. I think this is remedied with the 12 pool 19 hatch build which i find to be a much cleaner build.
I think the biggest trade off between the standard play is that (generally) a 15 pool player will get their third at least half a minute quicker (assuming you spend your larva) but the 12 pool build will secure the natural quicker by removing the pylon block. Pro player remedy this weakness in the 14/15 pool by taking the third instead when the natural can't be taken, assuming protoss not double pylon block; this makes the 15 pool a more desirable option as the strengthes of the earlier pool are nullified.
However some players almost never take the third first and most of the time AND don't attempt to take the 15/16 hatch (after pool). Nerchio, for example, will open 14 pool 15 overlord and then 19 hatch if he can. Why? It's safer, you don't require your 2nd overlord to be watching your third and if he has opened gateway first your in a great position to make a gas and play from there. This play also makes a much more consistent early game with the hatch going down in the same place every time.
This is definitely a playstyle preference, however, you might wonder why not just open 12 pool over 14 pool if you want to play this way. Sure your natural will be faster but your third will be slower which nullifies that advantage in my eyes. With it already being a slightly less economic build then without that added utility I don't think you should open wiht it. I personally think that the only circumstances where I would want to be 12 pooling over 14/15 pooling is against a greedy nexus first (if you get lings in you're in a great spot) or if protoss really commits to denying both your third and natural. If you know a player will deny both bases with pylons and you dislike playing with such a late natural then 12 pool might be a good bet for you. Otherwise I'd recommend 15 pool and taking your third as a natural if pylon blocked or 14 pool 19-20 hatch if you want to play a little less risky. 11/12 pool builds are strong but I think they died out with the introduction of FFE every game where the requirement of such a fast third really hurt those builds.
Basically 14 pool instead of 12 pool if you want to play safe and 15 pool if you arern't worried about taking your third as your natural.
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This is a troll thread, seriously.
EDIT #2: From the discussion so far, it seems that some pros still do 11 or 12 pool openers, even at the highest levels of play. Furthermore these openers are safer than 14pool/16hatch vs any cannon aggression, so it's a good ladder opening. 14pool/16hatch is easier to execute in tourney play due to the supply depot at the ramp. Last, the eco hit taken by this opening is slight and can be made up for by pressuring the toss player with the first 4 lings after securing the expo.
It's EXTREMELY rare, not many ever do it, they did it years ago, not recently, and when they do it, it's an aggressive opener, not a macro build.
They are NOT safer against cannon aggression. If you fail to pull drones against a cannon rush or ramp block when going 11 pool you lose the game. A 3 pylon ramp block will still occur before an 11 pool even starts it's lings, and 2 lings by 2 (or even if you pool 3 larva, 6 lings) will NOT break a 3 pylon ramp block or 2 pylon block behind minerals before the cannon kills all the lings.
14 pool is NOT done because there is a neutral depot on the low ground. It's done because it's way better economically, and 11 pool has absolutely zero advantage over 14 pool when it comes to ramp blocks or cannon rushes.
The economic hit taken going 11 pool is LARGE and is NOT made up even if you pressure a high level Toss with 4 lings in his base since a good toss won't have to pull probes against 4 lings except only a few at the start, since a zealot will be out very soon.
This has all been covered in: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464 and there's a reason pros go 14-15 pool the overwhelming majority of the time.
It's just 3 new posters who haven't seen previous threads on this subject (the many, many threads on it...) who get angry at me telling them that, gasp, there's a reason why every single pro does 14-15 pool, instead of the much cooler "oh yea pros are stupid and they just are stuck in their ways man, i know what's up"
You are trying to read the pro players mind, but you don't know what he was thinking. You can insist that you know, but you don't. Fact is your story doesn't make sense. 12 pool is not a terrible macro opening, but it is a terrible aggressive build. Against any decent player the aggression stands little to no chance of inflicting damage. If aggression is the point of the build, then the build is a complete failure.
no... it's pretty straightforward. There is no reason you'd open anything other than 14-15 pool unless you wanted to do damage early on. That's because the economic hit you take wouldn't be justified unless you did damage. I guess theoretically, someone could open 6 pool and just drone up, but you are just going to be so far behind than if you simply went 14 pool. That's why it's pretty clear why anyone would go 11 or 12 pool, because they want to be aggressive. That, or they are clueless, but pros aren't going to be clueless.
I started to test this to prove you guys wrong, and it was immediately apparent 11 pool is wayyy behind economically than 14-15 pool. But to test it to the ~9-10 minute mark, and do that for 15 pool too, just is a monumental waste of time to prove something taht's already been proven and done by other people, and something that literally every single other person knows.
Here's what you do to empirically test this though, not your weird way you tried to test it:
- Go into "YABOT" (any map is fine as long as you stick with same map for every build)
- Freestyle build
- Do a 2 base 11 pool vs 2 base 14 or 15 pool up to 8 minutes
- (Drone count x 50) + (overlord count x 100) + (queen count x 150) = total mineral value, compare.
Taking a third throws too much of a wrench into the formula (I'd argue lings do too but 4 lings is very standard and part of why you insist 11 pool is better), as would things like gas etc, so you can test taking a third if you want, just only mine minerals and make only 4 lings when pool pops. Make queens and third in a consistent manner.
This thread reminds me a lot of this gem, where a guy argued that going 10 hatchery 10 pool is the best opener economically:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340594
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It is so obvious you didnt read this thread, belial.
On September 21 2012 08:39 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +You know, it's one thing to give your uneducated opinion on a topic. You have that right. It's another thing to ignore an essay worth of evidence on the topic you're addressing. That's also your right. But do not presume to correct me after I've spent 4 hours thoroughly testing this problem and arriving at an exact conclusion, and you've spent zero time examining that evidence, thinking critically, or doing any testing yourself; and to do so arrogantly. I have tested this, as well as many hours, for a lot more than 4 hours, about 2 years ago. Your testing method of comparing your replay to a pro replay, dissimilar third timings, and not even counting total minerals mined (total drone value + overlord value + queen value + mineral bank) or drone counts at 6,7,8 and 9 minutes is weird.
Oh I did count total resources mined. That is the first thing I point out, and is the basis for my entire analysis. So this right here tells me you didnt read, and do not understand the evidence.
By 10 minutes, a 14 pool has mined 500 total more resources than an 11 overpool. This is true, and anyone can confirm it for themselves. This I tested in Yabot multiple times for both builds, using ideal build orders for both variations with close to perfect execution, and placing the 2nd hatchery for a 14 pool @ the 3rd as is realistic. Test was done on metalopolis.
The statistic of total resources mined at the 10 minute mark accounts for all variables you mentioned: the third timing, drone counts from 6, 7, 8, and 9 minutes. Drone production stops at 60, and this occurs before 10 minutes. This is the standard build. All throughout my posts in this thread, I mention the 10 minute mark as the benchmark for our comparisons. Did you read anything I said?
Comparing my replay to a pro replay? I never did that. What???
On September 21 2012 08:39 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +dra didnt use infestors until Mr. Bitter pointed out, while receiving coaching from Idra, that hey - infestors may work to hold off these tanks cliffing you on shakuras better than Mutas. Next thing you know Idra is experimenting with infestors, and replays are getting shown of it. Then the whole community starts using infestors, where before no one would use them. Then the pro scene catches on to the community trends, and everyone is using infestors instead of mutas. All of it began because Mr. Bitter stated the obvious solution to tanks cliffing the main on shakuras which I had realized months prior along with many others. But who of us who realized this solution had the courage to try it, and contradict the pros current way of playing? Not nearly as many who thought it.
Are you serious? It was not like this at all... The community used lots of infestors during 9 range NP while the pros started moving away from infestor play and into muta and mass roach/ling play. It was not because mr bitter said infestors are good lol. Shakuras was not in the map pool in tournament by that time either. I seriously doubt metagame trends came out because mr bitter (no offense) or low level players started using infestors before the pros did.
Oh yes I'm serious. I'm not talking about 9 range NP. I'm also not saying zergs didnt use infestors at all before this time. Because they did use infestors after mutas, and throughout the game. I'm talking about the timing right when lair tech completes, and you choose to either open infestors, or open mutas. It's a defining point in the game. Zergs opening infestors at the completion of lair tech was never considered a standard opening until this time. No one did it. There were people experimenting with it of course but these experiments were never accepted as a standard, as part of the metagame.
What happened was at the time community was learning the game, and for a variety of reasons; since GomTV promoted Idra as this economic genius, among others; Idra was considered by the community as the go-to authority on zerg macro. Every AM zerg clone watched Idra for learning macro. He was among 20 or so zergs who we'd get replays of. He was one of the most macro centered zergs and his replays would get DEVOURED.
The mister bitter thread was extremely popular; so popular Mr. bitter started a casting career as a result. I think every AM zerg above masters had to have seen it / known about it. That thread and those videos got a TON of views, and the people tuning in were all the aspiring zerg players on AM server.. Zergs devour information from pros like wildfire, they are the most information based race. Alot of them are alot like you in temperament, actually. Looking up to their pros, copying their every move. But if you only watched 1 person, at that time it was most likely Idra just because of how standard he played. You at least needed to know the standards.
Idra started doing it because Mr. Bitter suggested it to him, because LZGamer had advised MrBitter to try it. It happened exactly like this, and it's hilarious. The community followed his lead and infestors at lair completion became popular within a week time period. About a month and a half later a patch came out buffing infestors because before everyone thought they were too weak before this time, and were complaining about them! But before the patch they were just getting popular ; D
On September 21 2012 08:39 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +lol, if there are thousands of pros out there then I qualify as pro. Nice assumption on my skill level though.
All evidence has proven 11 pool ends up ahead economically in the majority of circumstances. Quite the contrary... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=20246414 pool is way more money. 11 pool is only better by drone count and only by 1 basing.
Dude, the chart you posted only shows the two builds compared to one another.
The whole point is pressuring protoss puts him more behind than it puts you behind.
The chart also only goes up to 6 minutes and my analysis goes up to 10 minutes, after the drone cap at 60 and all 3rds / tech are down, and you are maxing on roaches / lings.
Let me make it simple for you. You lose X minerals by doing 11 pool instead of 14 pool. Protoss loses Y minerals by reacting to your 11 pool. X - Y = ???
Lol
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The whole point is pressuring protoss puts him more behind than it puts you behind.
Yes, that's the whole point of 11 pool. That you must do damage in order to get ahead with it. It's not a macro opener, it's an aggressive opener.
But if a Toss reacts properly, it's not going to put him more behind than it puts you. The logic doesn't make much sense. If that were the case, why not just 6 pool every game and macro behind it? Because if toss reacts properly, he'll be ahead. That doesn't mean people don't do it, or that it isn't viable, you can very much catch toss with their pants down. But on the maps these days, Toss can go nexus first and be fine against an 11 pool.
It also sounds like you are overestimating the damage 4 lings can do in Toss' base. Even if you get 4 lings in, they won't be able to do much. Toss will go a greedy nexus first, so you get 4 lings in, but toss build is about 30 seconds ahead for going nexus first. He'll have to pull maybe 6 probes a few times against the 4 lings, but the zealot will be out shortly and toss can pretty much ignore the lings from that point on, as long as he keeps in check basic micro (doesnt stray the zealot too far from probe line and get surrounded by full hp 4 lings and doesnt micro the zealot on top of that, doesnt let you drag the zealot far away and then you run in and kill probes with him not pulling away targeted probes real quick or just kill the lings with probes if they try that).
It just doesnt make sense for you to say "Yea go 11 pool and do damage end up ahead". The reason the game is pretty well balanced is because you can't do some sort of attack and if the opponent prepares for it, still end up ahead of them. You might force a gateway cancel wall against a nexus first but toss is pretty far ahead with the nexus first and the pylon block if you run lings past the pylon toward the toss base.
its like saying oh just 6 pool because toss will just lose so much more if he tries to respond correctly. he won't.
Let me make it simple for you. You lose X minerals by doing 11 pool instead of 14 pool. Protoss loses Y minerals by reacting to your 11 pool. With X>Y, X - Y =???
Lol
FTFY.
LOL
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I don't know how I could be any more clear. I really don't fucking know. Can God or someone tell me, am I just surrounded by idiots? Is that really the fucking problem? ...I am done with you.
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6 pooling sits on 3 larva because you are pooling them, you dont have to pool them. It was an exaggeration, but the basic idea of just get queen asap and omg more larva = better econ is ridiculous.
??? 6 pooling sits on 3 larva from the moment the game starts until the moment your 6, then 5 drones can mine 200 minerals in total. I like your guides and effort here on the site but you're cutting your argument off at the ankles if you don't acknowledge larva as one of the limiting factors to economic growth or continue to claim 6 pool doesn't waste larva.
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^ right it was an exaggeration, i get that. i was saying that comparing builds based solely on larva is goofy. larva can be a factor for economy but it's not the only one. And I don't think measuring larva is any way to base if a build is a better economic opener or not.
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On September 21 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +The whole point is pressuring protoss puts him more behind than it puts you behind. Yes, that's the whole point of 11 pool. That you must do damage in order to get ahead with it.
WRONG.
On September 21 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote:
But if a Toss reacts properly, it's not going to put him more behind than it puts you.
WRONG.
On September 21 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote:
It also sounds like you are overestimating the damage 4 lings can do in Toss' base. Even if you get 4 lings in, they won't be able to do much. Toss will go a greedy nexus first, so you get 4 lings in, but toss build is about 30 seconds ahead for going nexus first. He'll have to pull maybe 6 probes a few times against the 4 lings, but the zealot will be out shortly and toss can pretty much ignore the lings from that point on, as long as he keeps in check basic micro (doesnt stray the zealot too far from probe line and get surrounded by full hp 4 lings and doesnt micro the zealot on top of that, doesnt let you drag the zealot far away and then you run in and kill probes with him not pulling away targeted probes real quick or just kill the lings with probes if they try that).
LINGS ARE NOT IN THE BASE. THE WORKERS 'GAINED' ON THE OPPONENT ARE VIA HIS NEXUS HALTING PRODUCTION IN ORDER TO CONSTRUCT A WALL.
User was banned for this post.
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On September 21 2012 10:19 osiris17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote:The whole point is pressuring protoss puts him more behind than it puts you behind. Yes, that's the whole point of 11 pool. That you must do damage in order to get ahead with it. WRONG.Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote:
But if a Toss reacts properly, it's not going to put him more behind than it puts you.
WRONG.Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote:
It also sounds like you are overestimating the damage 4 lings can do in Toss' base. Even if you get 4 lings in, they won't be able to do much. Toss will go a greedy nexus first, so you get 4 lings in, but toss build is about 30 seconds ahead for going nexus first. He'll have to pull maybe 6 probes a few times against the 4 lings, but the zealot will be out shortly and toss can pretty much ignore the lings from that point on, as long as he keeps in check basic micro (doesnt stray the zealot too far from probe line and get surrounded by full hp 4 lings and doesnt micro the zealot on top of that, doesnt let you drag the zealot far away and then you run in and kill probes with him not pulling away targeted probes real quick or just kill the lings with probes if they try that).
LINGS ARE NOT IN THE BASE. THE WORKERS 'GAINED' ON THE OPPONENT ARE VIA HIS NEXUS HALTING PRODUCTION IN ORDER TO CONSTRUCT A WALL.
I'm not sure why the protoss would make a wall if he sees that there's not a single zergling coming ? You can easily build the wall on the last seconds or something, or even scout ahead on some maps (i'm precisely thinking about daybreak) and react accordingly...
In every way, you're late with 11pool. Unless i'm still missing something. Then i'm sorry.
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The zerglings are coming................
The zerglings arrive at the protoss base at 4:00 - 4:10 depending on map size, like I already said. The wall is completed @ 4:00 - 4:10, just in time to block the zerglings.... 4:10 for daybreak.
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Now, for my amusement, learn the hindu legend of the invincible star-
The legend of the birth of Ganesha carries within itself all the tragedy, valour, divinity, esotericism, enforced sacrifice, renewal and regeneration inherent in Uttarashada. In short the story goes like this:-
"Parvati created a mind borne son and instructed him to stand as a guard and not to let anyone in while she was bathing. Her husband Shiva, returning home, was barred entry by Parvati's son. Shiva had not seen this boy before and did not know who he was, and the boy in turn did not recognize Shiva. Harsh words were exchanged and a battle erupted. Shiva could not defeat this boy and had to retreat. He feit humiliated after being defeated by a mere child and sought the help of Vfsftnu and other Gods to defeat the child.
In the battle that ensued, all of the Gods together were unable to defeat him. Vishnu finally came up with a plan that someone should fight with the boy from the front, while he flew from behind to stealthily take the mace out of the boy's hand. Vishnu's theory was that the boy couldn't be defeated until the mace was taken out of his hand. The plan worked, as Shiva was able to cut the boy's head with his trident as soon as Vishnu's vehicle Garuefa (celestial eagle) snatched the mace.
Since he was Parvati's mind borne son she immediately came to know of his death and the whole story flashed before her mind's eye. She became enraged and summoned all the Shaktis (feminine forces) of the universe to create havoc on Vishnu, Shiva and the rest of the Gods. The whole creation went completely haywire and all the Gods were scared out of their wits. Vishnu realized that the whole universe would collapse if Parvati was not appeased quickly. This could only be done if the boy was brought back to life.
Vishnu instrueted the Gods to descend on earth and bring back the head of the first thing they saw. They saw an elephant and swiftly retumed with its head. Vishnu and Shiva attached the elephant's head to the trunk of the boy's body, which resurrected him. Finally Parvati's anger subsided and order was restored in the universe. The boy was named 'Ganesha', which translates into "the leader of all tribes', and was given the boon to be worshipped first before any other Gods.
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I've already made my case. Many others have made it much clearer. You already have other, respected posters saying you are flat out wrong. I don't need to repeat myself.
Geez, troll on.
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If you call that shredded, burnt pile of paper covered in green paint over there in the trashbin - if you call that your case, I'm sorry I think I lit it on fire and shredded it and poured green paint on it. You will have to buy a new case ; (
Celestial eagle incoming
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On September 21 2012 07:48 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:20 usethis2 wrote:On September 20 2012 16:16 Vermiiifuuge wrote:On September 20 2012 16:07 usethis2 wrote:
I happened to run into this thread (I don't play Z) but I know Z players are very calculated in early economy management, and I've had this question for a long time. It's not exactly on point to the thread topic, but it's somewhat related so if someone can answer it I'd appreciate it.
The question is simple: Assuming NR10, is there difference between hatch-first and pool-first? Let's say you're going for 2 base saturation and only ling speed by 10 minute mark. Again, no attack or any army production for that period. Doesnt really make sense to look at it this way. Everything is always relative to what your opponent does, and the timing of your third would also be an important aspect to take into consideration. Well I'm just theorycrafting. yes, it won't happen in real world. But there isn't much harm in theoricrafting for the sake of curiosity. So, if I may reiterate the question, Assuming there will be no attack or army production whatsoever (except getting ling speed), and assuming there is no 3rd base involved (you're just working off the main and the natural), which one gives you better economy at ~ 10 minute mark? Pool-first or Hatch-first? Hatch first by about 100 or 150 more minerals.
ty
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I will summarize my stance as short as possible by restating my points and adding what I forgot, in case there are interested readers:
1. I believe that 12 pool queen hatch against forge first is slightly better economically than 15 pool against nexus first with a delayed natural hatch and reactive lings. 12 pool gets queen larva production going a bit earlier while 15 pool gets earlier hatches and thus earlier extra mining. I say "believe" because I haven't tested protoss openers. I can only see that nexus first gets the nexus around 15-20 seconds earlier, equalling one probe. On top of that, Protoss might be able to be more greedy in case of 15 pool by making an earlier second pylon. The difference will be slight in every way, but so is the difference between 12 and 15 pool.
2. I think a 15 pool that gets the hatchery in time (because e.g. it is a 4 player map and the probe arrives late) is the best pool first opener by a small margin, independent of what Protoss does. That is why I prefer 15 pool on maps with multiple spawns.
3. The idea of forcing a forge first by going 12 pool relies on the overlord change of a few months ago. With old overlord speed, you couldn't figure in time whether Protoss is going nexus first and if it's worth it to force a wall-off or a probe pull by running the lings across the map (instead of driving the scouting probe away). This patch change should justify revising two-years-old testing.
4. Notice that the pressure 4 lings out of a 12 pool apply to a 17 nexus is in no way relying on Protoss messing up anything. There are only two possibilities: a. Protoss leaves a gap and the lings get in and attack the cannon, in which a significant number of probes has to pulled---not game-ending, but it hurts slightly. b. Protoss walls off completely, which means the lings have free reign over the buildings for 30+ seconds because the cannon isn't going to be finished for that long.
5. 12 pooling is tight. I am assuming no drone scout and no patrolling at the ramp since this isn't necessary on tournament maps. Taking drones off mining early on damages a 12 pool more than a 15 pool because the lost minerals translate into later drones (and even longer larva blocks) more. Maybe it is possible with going 13 pool instead and changing nothing else, I haven't tried that out.
6. The argument that pro players don't do it is problematic because if you are the kind of person that enjoys spending hours and hours of testing the tiny differences between openers, you don't become pro. The game is still decided by what is done after 5:00 99% of the time, and thank God it is. If a change gives you less than 1% of an advantage, perhaps even way less, it is very unlikely that the metagame changes---although it might happen eventually. I am not stating that this will happen to this thing, it's just that the metagame argument stops working when differences are so subtle as in this case.
Also, it takes time to figure out such a build order change. I am the kind of person that enjoys testing these things out, and I did that constantly since release (and read all relevant threads on this subject, too, for that matter). Still it took me months to notice that you don't need to---and shouldn't---delay your third until 5:00 or even 6:00. When doing 12 pool it is just too intuitive spending all larvae right away because that is what you are doing almost always, making you miss every good third timing.
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1.you are just theorycrafting without any evidence. it's already been proven and tested on 11 pool, 12 pool, 14 pool, etc. Please don't make stuff up without testing it, I've already linked multiple times the evidence and why this is not the case. Also, what difference does it make that toss goes ffe/nexus first on the impact of your economy?
2. 12 pool can be delayed it's hatch too. Your pool is only down about 15 seconds earlier than a 14 pool, a pylon block will still mess you up. Toss do pylon blocks so they can be greedier and delay the wall/cannon longer because they see you attacking the pylon with your lings. It's not like one build is hurt more than another by a pylon block.
3. You still won't see Toss' base in time before pool pops. Just because you plant a pool on a different timing, doesn't change when the overlord will arrive at their base lol. Please, you keep saying stuff that doesn't make sense. On literally every map today your overlord won't arrive before 3:05 when your pool finishes from a 14 pool even. And it really doesn't matter what toss is doing, we're talking about your own economy.
4. Sounds like Toss messing up... Why would Toss need to pull every probe against just 4 lings lol. They see you run out with 4 lings with their probe scout and pylon block, so they make their wall quicker after nexus first, or plant cannon down after forge instead of gateway, or just pull 6 probes. You make it sound like 4 lings would actually do something against a toss who clearly probe scouts a pool down before 2:00.
5. You need to patrol the ramp with a 12 pool. I've actually tested it, as have others. You will get ramp blocked and cannon rushed if you dont patrol the ramp with even an 11 pool. Also, there is no 'oh one build is hurt more by drone scouting'. drone scouting/patrolling is an absolute cost, it just delays your build a bit.
6.I never said anything like that. Morrow and qxc both sends days upon days of testing, you can search it up on this site. They, and every other pro out there, have tested just millions of things. They also do much better tests, since they play the game at a higher level and know what they are doing. All I said is that it should tell you something when every, single, zerg, player, goes 14/15 pool instead of 12 or whatever pool.
So the burden of proof is on you. Per TL rules, it's up to you to provide evidence why every pro player is wrong in doing the build they do. So far, it just sounds like you are saying "Well when i play low level Toss on ladder, they overreact when I get 4 lings in their base with 11 pool!" and that's just not going to happen at a high level of play. You need to provide evidence instead of theorycraft, this is a terrible thread with absolutely zero testing done to prove anything and no replays. That's why Osiris17 got permabanned, for spouting a bunch of theorycraft without backing it up.
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Please excuse that it cannot be justified to respond to everything you said; there are too many mere misreadings of what I wrote and a lot of stuff you are making up and which I never said. Please re-check the posts I made, I explained timings and backed up my statements with logical deduction.
If others, preferably less opinionated people, want to raise legitimate concerns I'll be happy to discuss them.
P.S. I grant you the last word here, you can have it!
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United States8476 Posts
On September 22 2012 00:05 Belial88 wrote:
You need to provide evidence instead of theorycraft, this is a terrible thread with absolutely zero testing done to prove anything and no replays. That's why Osiris17 got permabanned, for spouting a bunch of theorycraft without backing it up.
Well that's just not right, along with a lot of other stuff you've said in this thread is opinionated, wrong or misleading. Osiris17 was originally banned because of his bad posting in his last 3 posts, not for "spouting a bunch of theorycraft without backing it up." His ban has since been reduced.
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On September 21 2012 07:48 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +So 12 pool in these sample games loses one minute of hatchery-based larva production, which equals 4. Queens, though, are much earlier, 1:13 in total, which equals an approximate plus of 6-7 larvae. Then there is a small loss through the fact that the second queen has to travel to the natural and that there are brief larva blocks in the main after putting down the third, but that isn't more than 2-3 larvae. Once your natural kicks in, you can make all your larvae into drones. Counting potential larva is not an accurate way to gauge a build.... at all... theoretically you could just go 6 pool 10 hatch and have more larva. Comparing a pro game against a pro opponent, and your replay, doesn't seem to accurate either. Show nested quote +omg, the research has been done several times.
I think 11 pool is viable and PROS DO PLAY 11 POOL. E.g. Stephano does it sometimes, Lowely opens 11 pool frequently. 11 pool is an excellent allround ladder opening. If your opponent is likely to play greedy, 11 pool may be a slight waste, as you cannot do any real pressure, but this is by no means game deciding. They all do is as an aggressive opening. What is being discussed here is using it as a macro opening, totally different. Show nested quote +If you plan to 3 base at 4'10, an 11 pool might not the right opening. However a lot of zerg players tend to go for a 36..40 supply 3rd which is fine with an 11 pool. In this case an 11 pool is slightly ahead over 14+ pools in drone production. That doesn't make much sense. And short term gain in drones because you take a later third doesn't make the build better when in the long term it's worse. You could just run off 1 base and have alot more drones than any other opening for a certain amount of time (somewhere around 4-5 minute i believe; 11 pool is the better build if you are playing 1 base though). BTW: look at the charts you posted: 11 pool is ahead ~3 drones at 6'00, so it will more then compensate the early mineral loss (for reference, because uncovered in the charts: 11 pool-ovie is at ~38 drones @6'00) There's a reason most pros take a third at ~20. If taking it at 36-40 resulted in better economy in the long term, everyone would just go 14 pool 40 third. It doesn't make much sense to say "well 11 pool is a better build because you take your hatch later". like what? You want to take your third around 20ish (you should have 16 drones at main and nat when it finishes, roughly, so you are getting a benefit from an additional set of patches). Just makes no sense to say "11 pool is ahead in production of 14 pool because you take a late third". I'm pretty sure all the pros go 14-15 pool 16h 21h because that results in the best economy 7-9:00+. Show nested quote +There are plenty of things that pros don't do that are good, and there are plenty of things that pros do that are BAD. For example:
IdrA always puts 20 drones on any expansion before rallying to different minerals. It has been proved that 16 drones and then rallying your hatch is the way to get the most minerals. I don't know exactly what you mean. I was the person who 'proved' that rallying>maynarding (i didnt really prove it either, I claimed it after lots of testing, i didn't provide evidence, i just said it and pointed out thats what the best macro benchmark zergs have done). It's very context dependent, and that's just 1 pro. Some pros do things that are 'bad', but most pros do things correctly. There have been certain things, like for example korean pros going extractor trick for a year after WOL was released (and here and there some still do it), but for the most part they know what they are doing. Show nested quote +Pros make the gasses at 6:30 in their main/nat which means that they have to get at least 22 drones on their main before rallying. This means that the rally is late and therefore they are not mining efficiently in the time that they have 22 drones on their main and are waiting for the gasses to finish. Making 2 at the third and one at the natural sounds most optimal to me because units sometimes target buildings instead of units which makes your army last longer and an easier defense. This has all been figured out already.
Omg, although you act like the god of knowledge (and you obviously have a lot of knowledge), it seems to me that you do not really understand the basic mechanics of zerg macro.
In fact (you can verify this easily using build order optimizers), the "optimal build" depends on your target (gas, 3rd, tech, army timing).
rethink the basics:
There are 3 basic things regarding zerg economy growth:
* larvae
* income
* expansions
What is optimal ?
* You do not want to stockpile larvae (larvae idling=waste)
* You do not want to stockpile money
* You do not want to oversaturate
so the optimal build is obviously the build which produces exactly the amount of larvae you need to build overlords, drones *and* gives some extra minerals to build your expansions (+queens, tech, scouting units).
So it makes a difference if you aim for a two base build with late 3rd or a 3 base build, also if you like to play queen heavy, you'd like to get some extra minerals (=less larvae needed).
So the most larvae heavy build is 11 pool - ovie, which barely lets you spend your larvae, so you cannot afford getting a fast third or early gas without sacrificing larvae. (any earlier pool is pointless, as you start to idle larvae - your 6 pool example is nonsense)
The most mineral heavy openings are 15,16 pool. You start stockpiling minerals, so these builds only make sense if you take early gas or spend minerals for buildings. Because of their lack of larvae, they fall behind in drone production, so they are bad economically on the 'long' run. But they are good *IF* you want to take early gas.
12,13,14 pool are inbetween and in fact do not differ that much in income (see the sheet you posted, 12 pool is barely behind 14 pool) and larvae production (however early lings may help you in real games).
Hatch first hits a sweet spot (agree here), as you get a good larvae/income balance. However it is not in general the "most economic" build for any tech/expansion/rush timing. E.g. an 11 pool-ovie gets you 30 drones at 5'09 (~20 seconds faster than hatch first), but no money for a 3rd, gas etc. You can't even afford to scout without getting idle larvae. Is this the 'most economic' build ? Depends on your timings/general strat. It is most economic for certain 2 base timings ^^, but not the most economic for allround reactive zerg play.
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On September 22 2012 04:15 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 07:48 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +So 12 pool in these sample games loses one minute of hatchery-based larva production, which equals 4. Queens, though, are much earlier, 1:13 in total, which equals an approximate plus of 6-7 larvae. Then there is a small loss through the fact that the second queen has to travel to the natural and that there are brief larva blocks in the main after putting down the third, but that isn't more than 2-3 larvae. Once your natural kicks in, you can make all your larvae into drones. Counting potential larva is not an accurate way to gauge a build.... at all... theoretically you could just go 6 pool 10 hatch and have more larva. Comparing a pro game against a pro opponent, and your replay, doesn't seem to accurate either. Show nested quote +omg, the research has been done several times.
I think 11 pool is viable and PROS DO PLAY 11 POOL. E.g. Stephano does it sometimes, Lowely opens 11 pool frequently. 11 pool is an excellent allround ladder opening. If your opponent is likely to play greedy, 11 pool may be a slight waste, as you cannot do any real pressure, but this is by no means game deciding. They all do is as an aggressive opening. What is being discussed here is using it as a macro opening, totally different. Show nested quote +If you plan to 3 base at 4'10, an 11 pool might not the right opening. However a lot of zerg players tend to go for a 36..40 supply 3rd which is fine with an 11 pool. In this case an 11 pool is slightly ahead over 14+ pools in drone production. That doesn't make much sense. And short term gain in drones because you take a later third doesn't make the build better when in the long term it's worse. You could just run off 1 base and have alot more drones than any other opening for a certain amount of time (somewhere around 4-5 minute i believe; 11 pool is the better build if you are playing 1 base though). BTW: look at the charts you posted: 11 pool is ahead ~3 drones at 6'00, so it will more then compensate the early mineral loss (for reference, because uncovered in the charts: 11 pool-ovie is at ~38 drones @6'00) There's a reason most pros take a third at ~20. If taking it at 36-40 resulted in better economy in the long term, everyone would just go 14 pool 40 third. It doesn't make much sense to say "well 11 pool is a better build because you take your hatch later". like what? You want to take your third around 20ish (you should have 16 drones at main and nat when it finishes, roughly, so you are getting a benefit from an additional set of patches). Just makes no sense to say "11 pool is ahead in production of 14 pool because you take a late third". I'm pretty sure all the pros go 14-15 pool 16h 21h because that results in the best economy 7-9:00+. Show nested quote +There are plenty of things that pros don't do that are good, and there are plenty of things that pros do that are BAD. For example:
IdrA always puts 20 drones on any expansion before rallying to different minerals. It has been proved that 16 drones and then rallying your hatch is the way to get the most minerals. I don't know exactly what you mean. I was the person who 'proved' that rallying>maynarding (i didnt really prove it either, I claimed it after lots of testing, i didn't provide evidence, i just said it and pointed out thats what the best macro benchmark zergs have done). It's very context dependent, and that's just 1 pro. Some pros do things that are 'bad', but most pros do things correctly. There have been certain things, like for example korean pros going extractor trick for a year after WOL was released (and here and there some still do it), but for the most part they know what they are doing. Show nested quote +Pros make the gasses at 6:30 in their main/nat which means that they have to get at least 22 drones on their main before rallying. This means that the rally is late and therefore they are not mining efficiently in the time that they have 22 drones on their main and are waiting for the gasses to finish. Making 2 at the third and one at the natural sounds most optimal to me because units sometimes target buildings instead of units which makes your army last longer and an easier defense. This has all been figured out already. Omg, although you act like the god of knowledge (and you obviously have a lot of knowledge), it seems to me that you do not really understand the basic mechanics of zerg macro. In fact (you can verify this easily using build order optimizers), the "optimal build" depends on your target (gas, 3rd, tech, army timing). rethink the basics: There are 3 basic things regarding zerg economy growth: * larvae * income * expansions What is optimal ? * You do not want to stockpile larvae (larvae idling=waste) * You do not want to stockpile money * You do not want to oversaturate so the optimal build is obviously the build which produces exactly the amount of larvae you need to build overlords, drones *and* gives some extra minerals to build your expansions (+queens, tech, scouting units). So it makes a difference if you aim for a two base build with late 3rd or a 3 base build, also if you like to play queen heavy, you'd like to get some extra minerals (=less larvae needed). So the most larvae heavy build is 11 pool - ovie, which barely lets you spend your larvae, so you cannot afford getting a fast third or early gas without sacrificing larvae. (any earlier pool is pointless, as you start to idle larvae - your 6 pool example is nonsense) The most mineral heavy openings are 15,16 pool. You start stockpiling minerals, so these builds only make sense if you take early gas or spend minerals for buildings. Because of their lack of larvae, they fall behind in drone production, so they are bad economically on the 'long' run. But they are good *IF* you want to take early gas. 12,13,14 pool are inbetween and in fact do not differ that much in income (see the sheet you posted, 12 pool is barely behind 14 pool) and larvae production (however early lings may help you in real games). Hatch first hits a sweet spot (agree here), as you get a good larvae/income balance. However it is not in general the "most economic" build for any tech/expansion/rush timing. E.g. an 11 pool-ovie gets you 30 drones at 5'09 (~20 seconds faster than hatch first), but no money for a 3rd, gas etc. You can't even afford to scout without getting idle larvae. Is this the 'most economic' build ? Depends on your timings/general strat. It is most economic for certain 2 base timings ^^, but not the most economic for allround reactive zerg play.
Thanks! Nice Posts, explains a lot.
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Thank you Monk. I'd like to progress this discussion forward.
There're a few important points in considering this opening that I do not think have received enough attention, though they have been alluded to in previous posts:
1. One argument seems to be that going 11overpool/19hatch delays the 3rd. This makes sense, since it's a more larva-efficient, but less mineral-efficient opening. This means that you should have more minerals when opening 14/15pool and less larva -> earlier 3rd (I believe 21 is standard). This opening also should also suffer slightly less from drone scouting as a result.
11overpool is a very tight build, and I think drone scouting hurts the build more than 14/15pool, since you already barely have enough money to spend your larva. Drone scouting is not very important though due to your initial 4 lings being out for scouting purposes.
But my question is this: What is the best time to throw down a 3rd then with 11overpool? I put mine down at 23 supply generally, and I believe Velvex said in an earlier post that there's about a 15s delay in throwing down the 3rd compared to 14/15pool. As the nat isn't saturated at this point, I don't think this should make a significant difference, but I don't know if there's a more optimal timing.
2. One can also build 4 lings to pressure off of 14pool/16hatch. The delay here between 11pool is not that large, though it threw my build off in my (small) test. I think 11overpool pressure is more effective, because those seconds count earlygame, but do people also put on any pressure off of 14pool?
3. What is the importance of drone scouting and even building any lings when opening a later pool? 11overpool/19hatch is a very consistent opening for me, but I see some variations of 14/15pool where the Z player just goes super greedy (if they don't get blocked) and skips drone-scout (relies on OL earlygame) and doesn't even build lings until later. This seems a little risky for my tastes, but I'm curious if others think so as well.
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why has noone brought up the 11 hatch yet? I know its not that popular but its up there forreal.
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On September 22 2012 10:14 TheGreenMachine wrote:
why has noone brought up the 11 hatch yet? I know its not that popular but its up there forreal.
Can you outline the ideas or link to a thread on it?
This sounds pretty succeptible to ocannoning, but I don't know the build.
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Heres the build order in spoiler its quite long, me and a friend have been doin it for like a year in ZvT and ZvP. Its very unstandard, hopefully will spark some ideas :D. Detailed = like 50 steps every larva matters. The game time #s are for your benefit and to gauge if you are doing the build optimally.
it is susceptable to cannons but only if you cant micro very well. It kind of asks to be cannoned but has 2 drones designed to defend cannons and bunkers in your nat.
The style is mainly lings, since it involves a very quick 4th hatch. Oh and you can even put the 4th hatch at your 4th base if you are ballsy enough, but i wouldnt suggest it against voidray/banshee until you have creep there. The extra mineral patches does help efficiency once you have more than 16 drones per mineral line.
most of the reason why its good is because of how detailed it is and how efficently it uses larva, hatch timings, overlord timings, and queen timings.
edit: no i didnt write this out just now, ive had it in a notepad for a while xD
+ Show Spoiler +Random Stats:
Ling speed finishes at 6:09
Gas starts at 2:53
put back in gas at 5:41
+1 starts at 6:34
Start 4th hatch at 7:20
5:24 is first tumor
Pool starts at 2:41
Pool finishes at 3:48
Extended Version:
-10/10 extractor trick+drone
-11/10 hatch, send at 200 minerals
-10/10 overlord
-10/10 extractor trick+drone
-as ovie pops 2x drones rallied to natural
-next larva is drone, comes right at 50 minerals
-micro drones in natural and 14/18 pool
-one drone then 14/18 gas
-drone until 17/18
-put guys in gas 1 at a time
-17/18 drone in natural
-18/20 overlord in main
-18/20 queen in natural (you have 150 right as pool pops if you did it right)
-20/28 2x sets of lings in main
-drone to 24/28
-24/28 ling speed, pull off gas 1 at a time
-25/28 overlord
-spawn larva and send drone to 3rd
-31/36 3rd hatch at 3rd base, aim for 5:15 under no pressure
-put 3 back on gas right after starting 3rd base
-build evo at ~30 gas to have 100 gas for +1 melee when it finishes
-3rd set of queen energy is either tumor in your natural, then run to 3rd or run to 3rd after 2nd inject for tumor at your 3rd base once that hatch finishes
-your 3rd set of energy will be at 40/44 supply, right as you inject build 2 more queens to hit 44/44 energy lines up
-overlord on 44/44, then +1 melee (or as soon as your evo is done and have money for it), then 4th hatch usually as a macro hatch.
-after +1 melee is started your next 100 gas is for lair, your queen in main should finish right about when you get 100 gas to start lair.
-make 4th queen for your 4th hatch when the hatch is 50% (and it will finish when hatch finishes), if you don't have enough drones to support the hatch you can spread creep with 4th queen in the meantime.
-overlord speed for creep spreading is useful to get shortly after lair finishes, as well as an overseer to scout your opponent
Notes:
-Try to make all ovies in main because it is already saturated, that way other larva for drones are closer to unsaturated bases
-Spread your 1 tumor constantly, i suggest rehotkey it every time it spreads
-extra queen for 100% spreading tumors is good habit
-spreading overlords for vision, and for creep after ovie speed
-build drones at hatch nearest to where drones are headed (unsaturated bases)
-take gases for a reason, like if you plan to go muta/infestor take all gases but if going ling, bling take only 3-4 gas as you want to be able to use your massive 4 hatch 4 queen larva count.
-constantly be using your evo's to upgrade
-backup roach warren or baneling nest prevents many dumb losses against surprise mass chargelot or BF hellion
-early or late overlords result in hurt income. Its an easy way to optimize your play, don't take it for granted.
Vs Terran:
-speed kicks in shortly after 2 hellions can be at your base vs standard gas opening, do small amount of queen micro and you can hold them off until speed kicks in.
-against gas-first hellion build your lings meet the hellions half way across map, don't build 3rd, build 1 spine crawler soon as u scout it and pull drones into main and queen to ramp. Build 4-6 slow lings so your queen can move from the ramp to spawn larva in natural without letting hellions runby.
-sneak a ling to his natural to check when he swaps addons. Typically they swap after 4 hellions, some do it after 6, and some even 8-10 hellions. If he makes more than 4 you should start roach warren and an extra gas as you start the warren.
-hydras are your go-to unit. I like to be on 4 gases until I have my 4th somewhat saturated then start infestor pit and hive for ultra lategame. Hydras are decent dps against marines but only if you have lings infront of them. Hydras can also kill drops very fast, about 4 hydras can kill a drop before it can fly away. You can also drop hydras when you get your ultralisk tech finished, this way they trade supply semi-efficiently since they are bad vs 3/3 rines.
-overlord speed is very useful in creep spreading especially when using hydras.
Vs Protoss:
-you can overseer scout at 8:30 or as soon as your lair finishes, this tells you if you need to make roaches to stop his 2 base timing after checking if he has 3 or 4 gas, whether you should mass lings or just tech/upgrade
-this fast +1 melee compliments fast +2 baneling drop style vs the +1 finishes in time for many early pushes.
-with your first 4 lings you should scout the entire map for proxy pylons with excess apm. DT take almost a full minute longer to run from his base to your base, thats 7:30 instead of 6:30 which is a huge difference. Also makes pushes much easier to defend because you see it coming quicker or he will push without doing a last warpin.
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On September 22 2012 08:48 Defenestrator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Thank you Monk. I'd like to progress this discussion forward.
There're a few important points in considering this opening that I do not think have received enough attention, though they have been alluded to in previous posts:
1. One argument seems to be that going 11overpool/19hatch delays the 3rd. This makes sense, since it's a more larva-efficient, but less mineral-efficient opening. This means that you should have more minerals when opening 14/15pool and less larva -> earlier 3rd (I believe 21 is standard). This opening also should also suffer slightly less from drone scouting as a result.
11overpool is a very tight build, and I think drone scouting hurts the build more than 14/15pool, since you already barely have enough money to spend your larva. Drone scouting is not very important though due to your initial 4 lings being out for scouting purposes.
But my question is this: What is the best time to throw down a 3rd then with 11overpool? I put mine down at 23 supply generally, and I believe Velvex said in an earlier post that there's about a 15s delay in throwing down the 3rd compared to 14/15pool. As the nat isn't saturated at this point, I don't think this should make a significant difference, but I don't know if there's a more optimal timing.
2. One can also build 4 lings to pressure off of 14pool/16hatch. The delay here between 11pool is not that large, though it threw my build off in my (small) test. I think 11overpool pressure is more effective, because those seconds count earlygame, but do people also put on any pressure off of 14pool?
3. What is the importance of drone scouting and even building any lings when opening a later pool? 11overpool/19hatch is a very consistent opening for me, but I see some variations of 14/15pool where the Z player just goes super greedy (if they don't get blocked) and skips drone-scout (relies on OL earlygame) and doesn't even build lings until later. This seems a little risky for my tastes, but I'm curious if others think so as well.
1. 23 is a good third timing with 11 or 12 pool, I think. It's basically the same as with 15 pool, you make your third out of 15-16 drones mining in your main. Mining at the natural comes later with both builds and should not have an impact on the third timing.
2. I am not sure if you can do something with a 14 pool with 4 lings right away. Even against nexus first, 14 pool should give Protoss enough time to complete a wall AND make a pylon at your natural thereafter to capitalize on you running your lings across the map. A similar thing happened recently in the GSL on Antiga Shipyard, I think it was Life vs. Seed, where Life had to make a third set of lings because he had his initial lings on the map and was pylon-blocked at his natural.
3. Honestly, I don't know. I always thought that basically no one drone-scouts in ZvP, but apparently there are a number of people who do it. As I said earlier, if you want to drone-scout, I'd advise against 11 or 12 pool because the mineral cost delays your drones quite a bit, contrary to 14 or 15 pool.
Regarding lings, Zerg players seem to be confident making only 2 lings if they get their natural hatch down early, giving you one for the towers and one to scout around places your overlords can't cover. No lings early, i.e. before 5:00, at all looks really hazardous to me, but, again, I don't want to say things confidently that I am not knowledgeable about.
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regarding 11 hatch.
i tested it a few seconds ago in a build order tester under optimal circumstances and the results show me that this build is behind in every aspect. even a 15 hatch 17 pool gets the pool 13 seconds earlier, has earlier 2 base saturation, much more larva and a mineral difference of 300 in favour of 15 hatch 17 pool.
enough reasons to not go 11 hatch. if someone wins with it he is clearly the better player using an inferior build.
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On September 22 2012 17:59 dZn wrote:
regarding 11 hatch.
i tested it a few seconds ago in a build order tester under optimal circumstances and the results show me that this build is behind in every aspect. even a 15 hatch 17 pool gets the pool 13 seconds earlier, has earlier 2 base saturation, much more larva and a mineral difference of 300 in favour of 15 hatch 17 pool.
enough reasons to not go 11 hatch. if someone wins with it he is clearly the better player using an inferior build.
the only advantage is, that the nat timing is so early, it will not be blocked 95% of games. not worth the behindness imo
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Discussing different openings is fine and dandy, but there is a reason nobody (or at least almost nobody, seriously it's been more than a year since I've heard about or saw 11 pool) does it.
If you like it fine, play with it, if you don't like don't use it, if you don't know try it and see what you prefer, ladder will give a variety of players and reactions to the opening.
Also thinking numbers out of YABOT and spreadsheets give all the answers is a being a bit too confident and flawed, there's a lot more factoring in, like having an expansion down and creep farther out too put spines if needed (which surprised many people out in the day when it was discovered that 15 hatch was better at stopping 2rax than 14/14). As well as your opponent knowing that since you opened like this in 5mn you will no be able to have such or such tech or do such strategy.
Sheesh people no need to go balistic over this.
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On September 22 2012 10:43 TheGreenMachine wrote:Heres the build order in spoiler its quite long, me and a friend have been doin it for like a year in ZvT and ZvP. Its very unstandard, hopefully will spark some ideas :D. Detailed = like 50 steps every larva matters. The game time #s are for your benefit and to gauge if you are doing the build optimally. it is susceptable to cannons but only if you cant micro very well. It kind of asks to be cannoned but has 2 drones designed to defend cannons and bunkers in your nat. The style is mainly lings, since it involves a very quick 4th hatch. Oh and you can even put the 4th hatch at your 4th base if you are ballsy enough, but i wouldnt suggest it against voidray/banshee until you have creep there. The extra mineral patches does help efficiency once you have more than 16 drones per mineral line. most of the reason why its good is because of how detailed it is and how efficently it uses larva, hatch timings, overlord timings, and queen timings. edit: no i didnt write this out just now, ive had it in a notepad for a while xD + Show Spoiler +Random Stats:
Ling speed finishes at 6:09
Gas starts at 2:53
put back in gas at 5:41
+1 starts at 6:34
Start 4th hatch at 7:20
5:24 is first tumor
Pool starts at 2:41
Pool finishes at 3:48
Extended Version:
-10/10 extractor trick+drone
-11/10 hatch, send at 200 minerals
-10/10 overlord
-10/10 extractor trick+drone
-as ovie pops 2x drones rallied to natural
-next larva is drone, comes right at 50 minerals
-micro drones in natural and 14/18 pool
-one drone then 14/18 gas
-drone until 17/18
-put guys in gas 1 at a time
-17/18 drone in natural
-18/20 overlord in main
-18/20 queen in natural (you have 150 right as pool pops if you did it right)
-20/28 2x sets of lings in main
-drone to 24/28
-24/28 ling speed, pull off gas 1 at a time
-25/28 overlord
-spawn larva and send drone to 3rd
-31/36 3rd hatch at 3rd base, aim for 5:15 under no pressure
-put 3 back on gas right after starting 3rd base
-build evo at ~30 gas to have 100 gas for +1 melee when it finishes
-3rd set of queen energy is either tumor in your natural, then run to 3rd or run to 3rd after 2nd inject for tumor at your 3rd base once that hatch finishes
-your 3rd set of energy will be at 40/44 supply, right as you inject build 2 more queens to hit 44/44 energy lines up
-overlord on 44/44, then +1 melee (or as soon as your evo is done and have money for it), then 4th hatch usually as a macro hatch.
-after +1 melee is started your next 100 gas is for lair, your queen in main should finish right about when you get 100 gas to start lair.
-make 4th queen for your 4th hatch when the hatch is 50% (and it will finish when hatch finishes), if you don't have enough drones to support the hatch you can spread creep with 4th queen in the meantime.
-overlord speed for creep spreading is useful to get shortly after lair finishes, as well as an overseer to scout your opponent
Notes:
-Try to make all ovies in main because it is already saturated, that way other larva for drones are closer to unsaturated bases
-Spread your 1 tumor constantly, i suggest rehotkey it every time it spreads
-extra queen for 100% spreading tumors is good habit
-spreading overlords for vision, and for creep after ovie speed
-build drones at hatch nearest to where drones are headed (unsaturated bases)
-take gases for a reason, like if you plan to go muta/infestor take all gases but if going ling, bling take only 3-4 gas as you want to be able to use your massive 4 hatch 4 queen larva count.
-constantly be using your evo's to upgrade
-backup roach warren or baneling nest prevents many dumb losses against surprise mass chargelot or BF hellion
-early or late overlords result in hurt income. Its an easy way to optimize your play, don't take it for granted.
Vs Terran:
-speed kicks in shortly after 2 hellions can be at your base vs standard gas opening, do small amount of queen micro and you can hold them off until speed kicks in.
-against gas-first hellion build your lings meet the hellions half way across map, don't build 3rd, build 1 spine crawler soon as u scout it and pull drones into main and queen to ramp. Build 4-6 slow lings so your queen can move from the ramp to spawn larva in natural without letting hellions runby.
-sneak a ling to his natural to check when he swaps addons. Typically they swap after 4 hellions, some do it after 6, and some even 8-10 hellions. If he makes more than 4 you should start roach warren and an extra gas as you start the warren.
-hydras are your go-to unit. I like to be on 4 gases until I have my 4th somewhat saturated then start infestor pit and hive for ultra lategame. Hydras are decent dps against marines but only if you have lings infront of them. Hydras can also kill drops very fast, about 4 hydras can kill a drop before it can fly away. You can also drop hydras when you get your ultralisk tech finished, this way they trade supply semi-efficiently since they are bad vs 3/3 rines.
-overlord speed is very useful in creep spreading especially when using hydras.
Vs Protoss:
-you can overseer scout at 8:30 or as soon as your lair finishes, this tells you if you need to make roaches to stop his 2 base timing after checking if he has 3 or 4 gas, whether you should mass lings or just tech/upgrade
-this fast +1 melee compliments fast +2 baneling drop style vs the +1 finishes in time for many early pushes.
-with your first 4 lings you should scout the entire map for proxy pylons with excess apm. DT take almost a full minute longer to run from his base to your base, thats 7:30 instead of 6:30 which is a huge difference. Also makes pushes much easier to defend because you see it coming quicker or he will push without doing a last warpin.
Can you provide replays of this build against good players? I'd like to gauge if you're winning because of the build or inspite of the build. Thanks.
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On September 22 2012 20:01 NeonFox wrote:
Discussing different openings is fine and dandy, but there is a reason nobody (or at least almost nobody, seriously it's been more than a year since I've heard about or saw 11 pool) does it.
If you like it fine, play with it, if you don't like don't use it, if you don't know try it and see what you prefer, ladder will give a variety of players and reactions to the opening.
Also thinking numbers out of YABOT and spreadsheets give all the answers is a being a bit too confident and flawed, there's a lot more factoring in, like having an expansion down and creep farther out too put spines if needed (which surprised many people out in the day when it was discovered that 15 hatch was better at stopping 2rax than 14/14). As well as your opponent knowing that since you opened like this in 5mn you will no be able to have such or such tech or do such strategy.
Sheesh people no need to go balistic over this.
You see 11 pool-over (rarely) and 11 overpool (more often) executed from pro's in a BoX here and there (especially against notorious P nat pylon block opponents). Ofc it is not the plain vanilla standard/default opening, however this shows pro's do not consider this as unviable.
Some lesser known pros use it frequently. Quite often the casters don't get it and label it as '10 pool'.
I think on ladder, where you face a lot of different openings (pros tend to go standard, so they expect this from each other), early pools give you some extra safety. That's why you'll see early pools on ladder more often than in tourney play.
The rare use of 11 pool in tourneys indicates its not the best allround build with current metagame at pro level (they probably know what they're doing), however i think if it fits your style, its viable to use this as your default opening up to GM level.
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From looking at some replays, it also seems map-dependent. For example on Cloud, your OL can get to his nat in time to scout anything unusual, so going 14pool/attempting 16hatch and getting blocked, so going to 3rd right away is a viable option without any drone scout--without OL scout you would be vulnerable to some kind of metagaming where he pylon-blocks you going gate-first. Also assuming he lets you take your nat, there's also no real reason to get lings immediately anyway, so it seems safe ot drone straight to like 24+ supply and put down 3 hatches before building a single ling.
This doesn't really solve the issue with vulnerability to 3-pylon block but just patrolling a drone/following the probe with a drone, if it allows you to build NO lings through the first 24-30 supply, seems super-economical to me.
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On September 23 2012 01:28 Defenestrator wrote:
From looking at some replays, it also seems map-dependent. For example on Cloud, your OL can get to his nat in time to scout anything unusual, so going 14pool/attempting 16hatch and getting blocked, so going to 3rd right away is a viable option without any drone scout--without OL scout you would be vulnerable to some kind of metagaming where he pylon-blocks you going gate-first. Also assuming he lets you take your nat, there's also no real reason to get lings immediately anyway, so it seems safe ot drone straight to like 24+ supply and put down 3 hatches before building a single ling.
This doesn't really solve the issue with vulnerability to 3-pylon block but just patrolling a drone/following the probe with a drone, if it allows you to build NO lings through the first 24-30 supply, seems super-economical to me.
Even if toss doesn't block you nat, he can still cannon you there. So either you have to have your 2nd OL at your nat, or you need a drone checking for cannons or you just build lings to be sure that he doesnt block 3rd, and to hunt the probe, and to kill pylons on the map.
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On September 23 2012 02:26 ulfryc wrote:
Even if toss doesn't block you nat, he can still cannon you there. So either you have to have your 2nd OL at your nat, or you need a drone checking for cannons or you just build lings to be sure that he doesnt block 3rd, and to hunt the probe, and to kill pylons on the map.
Well on a map like cloud, you can easily send your 1st OL to the nat/main of his, your 2nd to your nat, and your 3rd to your 3rd expo to spot any cannon action.
He could still cannon you after you start your hatches but you have the threat of building lings pretty fast/already being out. I agree it's a risk--I personally prefer to play safer, but I can see it being viable.
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On September 23 2012 09:30 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 02:26 ulfryc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Even if toss doesn't block you nat, he can still cannon you there. So either you have to have your 2nd OL at your nat, or you need a drone checking for cannons or you just build lings to be sure that he doesnt block 3rd, and to hunt the probe, and to kill pylons on the map.
Well on a map like cloud, you can easily send your 1st OL to the nat/main of his, your 2nd to your nat, and your 3rd to your 3rd expo to spot any cannon action. He could still cannon you after you start your hatches but you have the threat of building lings pretty fast/already being out. I agree it's a risk--I personally prefer to play safer, but I can see it being viable.
If you use your 2nd and 3rd overlord to check for cannons, you are not able to sacrife an overlord into his main base to scout his build. I would never use my 1st overlord for that, especially on maps like Cloud Kingdom, where you can check 3rd & 4th gas timing + see the wall in.
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EPT
