EPTCelestial eagle incoming
[D] ZvP: 11pool vs 15hatch vs 14pool/16hatch - Page 4
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
Celestial eagle incoming | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On September 21 2012 07:48 RaiZ wrote: Hatch first by about 100 or 150 more minerals. ty | ||
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velvex
Germany226 Posts
1. I believe that 12 pool queen hatch against forge first is slightly better economically than 15 pool against nexus first with a delayed natural hatch and reactive lings. 12 pool gets queen larva production going a bit earlier while 15 pool gets earlier hatches and thus earlier extra mining. I say "believe" because I haven't tested protoss openers. I can only see that nexus first gets the nexus around 15-20 seconds earlier, equalling one probe. On top of that, Protoss might be able to be more greedy in case of 15 pool by making an earlier second pylon. The difference will be slight in every way, but so is the difference between 12 and 15 pool. 2. I think a 15 pool that gets the hatchery in time (because e.g. it is a 4 player map and the probe arrives late) is the best pool first opener by a small margin, independent of what Protoss does. That is why I prefer 15 pool on maps with multiple spawns. 3. The idea of forcing a forge first by going 12 pool relies on the overlord change of a few months ago. With old overlord speed, you couldn't figure in time whether Protoss is going nexus first and if it's worth it to force a wall-off or a probe pull by running the lings across the map (instead of driving the scouting probe away). This patch change should justify revising two-years-old testing. 4. Notice that the pressure 4 lings out of a 12 pool apply to a 17 nexus is in no way relying on Protoss messing up anything. There are only two possibilities: a. Protoss leaves a gap and the lings get in and attack the cannon, in which a significant number of probes has to pulled---not game-ending, but it hurts slightly. b. Protoss walls off completely, which means the lings have free reign over the buildings for 30+ seconds because the cannon isn't going to be finished for that long. 5. 12 pooling is tight. I am assuming no drone scout and no patrolling at the ramp since this isn't necessary on tournament maps. Taking drones off mining early on damages a 12 pool more than a 15 pool because the lost minerals translate into later drones (and even longer larva blocks) more. Maybe it is possible with going 13 pool instead and changing nothing else, I haven't tried that out. 6. The argument that pro players don't do it is problematic because if you are the kind of person that enjoys spending hours and hours of testing the tiny differences between openers, you don't become pro. The game is still decided by what is done after 5:00 99% of the time, and thank God it is. If a change gives you less than 1% of an advantage, perhaps even way less, it is very unlikely that the metagame changes---although it might happen eventually. I am not stating that this will happen to this thing, it's just that the metagame argument stops working when differences are so subtle as in this case. Also, it takes time to figure out such a build order change. I am the kind of person that enjoys testing these things out, and I did that constantly since release (and read all relevant threads on this subject, too, for that matter). Still it took me months to notice that you don't need to---and shouldn't---delay your third until 5:00 or even 6:00. When doing 12 pool it is just too intuitive spending all larvae right away because that is what you are doing almost always, making you miss every good third timing. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
2. 12 pool can be delayed it's hatch too. Your pool is only down about 15 seconds earlier than a 14 pool, a pylon block will still mess you up. Toss do pylon blocks so they can be greedier and delay the wall/cannon longer because they see you attacking the pylon with your lings. It's not like one build is hurt more than another by a pylon block. 3. You still won't see Toss' base in time before pool pops. Just because you plant a pool on a different timing, doesn't change when the overlord will arrive at their base lol. Please, you keep saying stuff that doesn't make sense. On literally every map today your overlord won't arrive before 3:05 when your pool finishes from a 14 pool even. And it really doesn't matter what toss is doing, we're talking about your own economy. 4. Sounds like Toss messing up... Why would Toss need to pull every probe against just 4 lings lol. They see you run out with 4 lings with their probe scout and pylon block, so they make their wall quicker after nexus first, or plant cannon down after forge instead of gateway, or just pull 6 probes. You make it sound like 4 lings would actually do something against a toss who clearly probe scouts a pool down before 2:00. 5. You need to patrol the ramp with a 12 pool. I've actually tested it, as have others. You will get ramp blocked and cannon rushed if you dont patrol the ramp with even an 11 pool. Also, there is no 'oh one build is hurt more by drone scouting'. drone scouting/patrolling is an absolute cost, it just delays your build a bit. 6.I never said anything like that. Morrow and qxc both sends days upon days of testing, you can search it up on this site. They, and every other pro out there, have tested just millions of things. They also do much better tests, since they play the game at a higher level and know what they are doing. All I said is that it should tell you something when every, single, zerg, player, goes 14/15 pool instead of 12 or whatever pool. So the burden of proof is on you. Per TL rules, it's up to you to provide evidence why every pro player is wrong in doing the build they do. So far, it just sounds like you are saying "Well when i play low level Toss on ladder, they overreact when I get 4 lings in their base with 11 pool!" and that's just not going to happen at a high level of play. You need to provide evidence instead of theorycraft, this is a terrible thread with absolutely zero testing done to prove anything and no replays. That's why Osiris17 got permabanned, for spouting a bunch of theorycraft without backing it up. | ||
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velvex
Germany226 Posts
If others, preferably less opinionated people, want to raise legitimate concerns I'll be happy to discuss them. P.S. I grant you the last word here, you can have it! | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On September 22 2012 00:05 Belial88 wrote: You need to provide evidence instead of theorycraft, this is a terrible thread with absolutely zero testing done to prove anything and no replays. That's why Osiris17 got permabanned, for spouting a bunch of theorycraft without backing it up. Well that's just not right, along with a lot of other stuff you've said in this thread is opinionated, wrong or misleading. Osiris17 was originally banned because of his bad posting in his last 3 posts, not for "spouting a bunch of theorycraft without backing it up." His ban has since been reduced. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On September 21 2012 07:48 Belial88 wrote: Counting potential larva is not an accurate way to gauge a build.... at all... theoretically you could just go 6 pool 10 hatch and have more larva. Comparing a pro game against a pro opponent, and your replay, doesn't seem to accurate either. They all do is as an aggressive opening. What is being discussed here is using it as a macro opening, totally different. That doesn't make much sense. And short term gain in drones because you take a later third doesn't make the build better when in the long term it's worse. You could just run off 1 base and have alot more drones than any other opening for a certain amount of time (somewhere around 4-5 minute i believe; 11 pool is the better build if you are playing 1 base though). BTW: look at the charts you posted: 11 pool is ahead ~3 drones at 6'00, so it will more then compensate the early mineral loss (for reference, because uncovered in the charts: 11 pool-ovie is at ~38 drones @6'00) There's a reason most pros take a third at ~20. If taking it at 36-40 resulted in better economy in the long term, everyone would just go 14 pool 40 third. It doesn't make much sense to say "well 11 pool is a better build because you take your hatch later". like what? You want to take your third around 20ish (you should have 16 drones at main and nat when it finishes, roughly, so you are getting a benefit from an additional set of patches). Just makes no sense to say "11 pool is ahead in production of 14 pool because you take a late third". I'm pretty sure all the pros go 14-15 pool 16h 21h because that results in the best economy 7-9:00+. I don't know exactly what you mean. I was the person who 'proved' that rallying>maynarding (i didnt really prove it either, I claimed it after lots of testing, i didn't provide evidence, i just said it and pointed out thats what the best macro benchmark zergs have done). It's very context dependent, and that's just 1 pro. Some pros do things that are 'bad', but most pros do things correctly. There have been certain things, like for example korean pros going extractor trick for a year after WOL was released (and here and there some still do it), but for the most part they know what they are doing. This has all been figured out already. Omg, although you act like the god of knowledge (and you obviously have a lot of knowledge), it seems to me that you do not really understand the basic mechanics of zerg macro. In fact (you can verify this easily using build order optimizers), the "optimal build" depends on your target (gas, 3rd, tech, army timing). rethink the basics: There are 3 basic things regarding zerg economy growth: * larvae * income * expansions What is optimal ? * You do not want to stockpile larvae (larvae idling=waste) * You do not want to stockpile money * You do not want to oversaturate so the optimal build is obviously the build which produces exactly the amount of larvae you need to build overlords, drones *and* gives some extra minerals to build your expansions (+queens, tech, scouting units). So it makes a difference if you aim for a two base build with late 3rd or a 3 base build, also if you like to play queen heavy, you'd like to get some extra minerals (=less larvae needed). So the most larvae heavy build is 11 pool - ovie, which barely lets you spend your larvae, so you cannot afford getting a fast third or early gas without sacrificing larvae. (any earlier pool is pointless, as you start to idle larvae - your 6 pool example is nonsense) The most mineral heavy openings are 15,16 pool. You start stockpiling minerals, so these builds only make sense if you take early gas or spend minerals for buildings. Because of their lack of larvae, they fall behind in drone production, so they are bad economically on the 'long' run. But they are good *IF* you want to take early gas. 12,13,14 pool are inbetween and in fact do not differ that much in income (see the sheet you posted, 12 pool is barely behind 14 pool) and larvae production (however early lings may help you in real games). Hatch first hits a sweet spot (agree here), as you get a good larvae/income balance. However it is not in general the "most economic" build for any tech/expansion/rush timing. E.g. an 11 pool-ovie gets you 30 drones at 5'09 (~20 seconds faster than hatch first), but no money for a 3rd, gas etc. You can't even afford to scout without getting idle larvae. Is this the 'most economic' build ? Depends on your timings/general strat. It is most economic for certain 2 base timings ^^, but not the most economic for allround reactive zerg play. | ||
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ulfryc
Germany115 Posts
On September 22 2012 04:15 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 21 2012 07:48 Belial88 wrote: Counting potential larva is not an accurate way to gauge a build.... at all... theoretically you could just go 6 pool 10 hatch and have more larva. Comparing a pro game against a pro opponent, and your replay, doesn't seem to accurate either. They all do is as an aggressive opening. What is being discussed here is using it as a macro opening, totally different. That doesn't make much sense. And short term gain in drones because you take a later third doesn't make the build better when in the long term it's worse. You could just run off 1 base and have alot more drones than any other opening for a certain amount of time (somewhere around 4-5 minute i believe; 11 pool is the better build if you are playing 1 base though). BTW: look at the charts you posted: 11 pool is ahead ~3 drones at 6'00, so it will more then compensate the early mineral loss (for reference, because uncovered in the charts: 11 pool-ovie is at ~38 drones @6'00) There's a reason most pros take a third at ~20. If taking it at 36-40 resulted in better economy in the long term, everyone would just go 14 pool 40 third. It doesn't make much sense to say "well 11 pool is a better build because you take your hatch later". like what? You want to take your third around 20ish (you should have 16 drones at main and nat when it finishes, roughly, so you are getting a benefit from an additional set of patches). Just makes no sense to say "11 pool is ahead in production of 14 pool because you take a late third". I'm pretty sure all the pros go 14-15 pool 16h 21h because that results in the best economy 7-9:00+. I don't know exactly what you mean. I was the person who 'proved' that rallying>maynarding (i didnt really prove it either, I claimed it after lots of testing, i didn't provide evidence, i just said it and pointed out thats what the best macro benchmark zergs have done). It's very context dependent, and that's just 1 pro. Some pros do things that are 'bad', but most pros do things correctly. There have been certain things, like for example korean pros going extractor trick for a year after WOL was released (and here and there some still do it), but for the most part they know what they are doing. This has all been figured out already. Omg, although you act like the god of knowledge (and you obviously have a lot of knowledge), it seems to me that you do not really understand the basic mechanics of zerg macro. In fact (you can verify this easily using build order optimizers), the "optimal build" depends on your target (gas, 3rd, tech, army timing). rethink the basics: There are 3 basic things regarding zerg economy growth: * larvae * income * expansions What is optimal ? * You do not want to stockpile larvae (larvae idling=waste) * You do not want to stockpile money * You do not want to oversaturate so the optimal build is obviously the build which produces exactly the amount of larvae you need to build overlords, drones *and* gives some extra minerals to build your expansions (+queens, tech, scouting units). So it makes a difference if you aim for a two base build with late 3rd or a 3 base build, also if you like to play queen heavy, you'd like to get some extra minerals (=less larvae needed). So the most larvae heavy build is 11 pool - ovie, which barely lets you spend your larvae, so you cannot afford getting a fast third or early gas without sacrificing larvae. (any earlier pool is pointless, as you start to idle larvae - your 6 pool example is nonsense) The most mineral heavy openings are 15,16 pool. You start stockpiling minerals, so these builds only make sense if you take early gas or spend minerals for buildings. Because of their lack of larvae, they fall behind in drone production, so they are bad economically on the 'long' run. But they are good *IF* you want to take early gas. 12,13,14 pool are inbetween and in fact do not differ that much in income (see the sheet you posted, 12 pool is barely behind 14 pool) and larvae production (however early lings may help you in real games). Hatch first hits a sweet spot (agree here), as you get a good larvae/income balance. However it is not in general the "most economic" build for any tech/expansion/rush timing. E.g. an 11 pool-ovie gets you 30 drones at 5'09 (~20 seconds faster than hatch first), but no money for a 3rd, gas etc. You can't even afford to scout without getting idle larvae. Is this the 'most economic' build ? Depends on your timings/general strat. It is most economic for certain 2 base timings ^^, but not the most economic for allround reactive zerg play. Thanks! Nice Posts, explains a lot. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
There're a few important points in considering this opening that I do not think have received enough attention, though they have been alluded to in previous posts: 1. One argument seems to be that going 11overpool/19hatch delays the 3rd. This makes sense, since it's a more larva-efficient, but less mineral-efficient opening. This means that you should have more minerals when opening 14/15pool and less larva -> earlier 3rd (I believe 21 is standard). This opening also should also suffer slightly less from drone scouting as a result. 11overpool is a very tight build, and I think drone scouting hurts the build more than 14/15pool, since you already barely have enough money to spend your larva. Drone scouting is not very important though due to your initial 4 lings being out for scouting purposes. But my question is this: What is the best time to throw down a 3rd then with 11overpool? I put mine down at 23 supply generally, and I believe Velvex said in an earlier post that there's about a 15s delay in throwing down the 3rd compared to 14/15pool. As the nat isn't saturated at this point, I don't think this should make a significant difference, but I don't know if there's a more optimal timing. 2. One can also build 4 lings to pressure off of 14pool/16hatch. The delay here between 11pool is not that large, though it threw my build off in my (small) test. I think 11overpool pressure is more effective, because those seconds count earlygame, but do people also put on any pressure off of 14pool? 3. What is the importance of drone scouting and even building any lings when opening a later pool? 11overpool/19hatch is a very consistent opening for me, but I see some variations of 14/15pool where the Z player just goes super greedy (if they don't get blocked) and skips drone-scout (relies on OL earlygame) and doesn't even build lings until later. This seems a little risky for my tastes, but I'm curious if others think so as well. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On September 22 2012 10:14 TheGreenMachine wrote: why has noone brought up the 11 hatch yet? I know its not that popular but its up there forreal. Can you outline the ideas or link to a thread on it? This sounds pretty succeptible to ocannoning, but I don't know the build. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
it is susceptable to cannons but only if you cant micro very well. It kind of asks to be cannoned but has 2 drones designed to defend cannons and bunkers in your nat. The style is mainly lings, since it involves a very quick 4th hatch. Oh and you can even put the 4th hatch at your 4th base if you are ballsy enough, but i wouldnt suggest it against voidray/banshee until you have creep there. The extra mineral patches does help efficiency once you have more than 16 drones per mineral line. most of the reason why its good is because of how detailed it is and how efficently it uses larva, hatch timings, overlord timings, and queen timings. edit: no i didnt write this out just now, ive had it in a notepad for a while xD + Show Spoiler + Random Stats: Ling speed finishes at 6:09 Gas starts at 2:53 put back in gas at 5:41 +1 starts at 6:34 Start 4th hatch at 7:20 5:24 is first tumor Pool starts at 2:41 Pool finishes at 3:48 Extended Version: -10/10 extractor trick+drone -11/10 hatch, send at 200 minerals -10/10 overlord -10/10 extractor trick+drone -as ovie pops 2x drones rallied to natural -next larva is drone, comes right at 50 minerals -micro drones in natural and 14/18 pool -one drone then 14/18 gas -drone until 17/18 -put guys in gas 1 at a time -17/18 drone in natural -18/20 overlord in main -18/20 queen in natural (you have 150 right as pool pops if you did it right) -20/28 2x sets of lings in main -drone to 24/28 -24/28 ling speed, pull off gas 1 at a time -25/28 overlord -spawn larva and send drone to 3rd -31/36 3rd hatch at 3rd base, aim for 5:15 under no pressure -put 3 back on gas right after starting 3rd base -build evo at ~30 gas to have 100 gas for +1 melee when it finishes -3rd set of queen energy is either tumor in your natural, then run to 3rd or run to 3rd after 2nd inject for tumor at your 3rd base once that hatch finishes -your 3rd set of energy will be at 40/44 supply, right as you inject build 2 more queens to hit 44/44 energy lines up -overlord on 44/44, then +1 melee (or as soon as your evo is done and have money for it), then 4th hatch usually as a macro hatch. -after +1 melee is started your next 100 gas is for lair, your queen in main should finish right about when you get 100 gas to start lair. -make 4th queen for your 4th hatch when the hatch is 50% (and it will finish when hatch finishes), if you don't have enough drones to support the hatch you can spread creep with 4th queen in the meantime. -overlord speed for creep spreading is useful to get shortly after lair finishes, as well as an overseer to scout your opponent Notes: -Try to make all ovies in main because it is already saturated, that way other larva for drones are closer to unsaturated bases -Spread your 1 tumor constantly, i suggest rehotkey it every time it spreads -extra queen for 100% spreading tumors is good habit -spreading overlords for vision, and for creep after ovie speed -build drones at hatch nearest to where drones are headed (unsaturated bases) -take gases for a reason, like if you plan to go muta/infestor take all gases but if going ling, bling take only 3-4 gas as you want to be able to use your massive 4 hatch 4 queen larva count. -constantly be using your evo's to upgrade -backup roach warren or baneling nest prevents many dumb losses against surprise mass chargelot or BF hellion -early or late overlords result in hurt income. Its an easy way to optimize your play, don't take it for granted. Vs Terran: -speed kicks in shortly after 2 hellions can be at your base vs standard gas opening, do small amount of queen micro and you can hold them off until speed kicks in. -against gas-first hellion build your lings meet the hellions half way across map, don't build 3rd, build 1 spine crawler soon as u scout it and pull drones into main and queen to ramp. Build 4-6 slow lings so your queen can move from the ramp to spawn larva in natural without letting hellions runby. -sneak a ling to his natural to check when he swaps addons. Typically they swap after 4 hellions, some do it after 6, and some even 8-10 hellions. If he makes more than 4 you should start roach warren and an extra gas as you start the warren. -hydras are your go-to unit. I like to be on 4 gases until I have my 4th somewhat saturated then start infestor pit and hive for ultra lategame. Hydras are decent dps against marines but only if you have lings infront of them. Hydras can also kill drops very fast, about 4 hydras can kill a drop before it can fly away. You can also drop hydras when you get your ultralisk tech finished, this way they trade supply semi-efficiently since they are bad vs 3/3 rines. -overlord speed is very useful in creep spreading especially when using hydras. Vs Protoss: -you can overseer scout at 8:30 or as soon as your lair finishes, this tells you if you need to make roaches to stop his 2 base timing after checking if he has 3 or 4 gas, whether you should mass lings or just tech/upgrade -this fast +1 melee compliments fast +2 baneling drop style vs the +1 finishes in time for many early pushes. -with your first 4 lings you should scout the entire map for proxy pylons with excess apm. DT take almost a full minute longer to run from his base to your base, thats 7:30 instead of 6:30 which is a huge difference. Also makes pushes much easier to defend because you see it coming quicker or he will push without doing a last warpin. | ||
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velvex
Germany226 Posts
On September 22 2012 08:48 Defenestrator wrote: + Show Spoiler + Thank you Monk. I'd like to progress this discussion forward. There're a few important points in considering this opening that I do not think have received enough attention, though they have been alluded to in previous posts: 1. One argument seems to be that going 11overpool/19hatch delays the 3rd. This makes sense, since it's a more larva-efficient, but less mineral-efficient opening. This means that you should have more minerals when opening 14/15pool and less larva -> earlier 3rd (I believe 21 is standard). This opening also should also suffer slightly less from drone scouting as a result. 11overpool is a very tight build, and I think drone scouting hurts the build more than 14/15pool, since you already barely have enough money to spend your larva. Drone scouting is not very important though due to your initial 4 lings being out for scouting purposes. But my question is this: What is the best time to throw down a 3rd then with 11overpool? I put mine down at 23 supply generally, and I believe Velvex said in an earlier post that there's about a 15s delay in throwing down the 3rd compared to 14/15pool. As the nat isn't saturated at this point, I don't think this should make a significant difference, but I don't know if there's a more optimal timing. 2. One can also build 4 lings to pressure off of 14pool/16hatch. The delay here between 11pool is not that large, though it threw my build off in my (small) test. I think 11overpool pressure is more effective, because those seconds count earlygame, but do people also put on any pressure off of 14pool? 3. What is the importance of drone scouting and even building any lings when opening a later pool? 11overpool/19hatch is a very consistent opening for me, but I see some variations of 14/15pool where the Z player just goes super greedy (if they don't get blocked) and skips drone-scout (relies on OL earlygame) and doesn't even build lings until later. This seems a little risky for my tastes, but I'm curious if others think so as well. 1. 23 is a good third timing with 11 or 12 pool, I think. It's basically the same as with 15 pool, you make your third out of 15-16 drones mining in your main. Mining at the natural comes later with both builds and should not have an impact on the third timing. 2. I am not sure if you can do something with a 14 pool with 4 lings right away. Even against nexus first, 14 pool should give Protoss enough time to complete a wall AND make a pylon at your natural thereafter to capitalize on you running your lings across the map. A similar thing happened recently in the GSL on Antiga Shipyard, I think it was Life vs. Seed, where Life had to make a third set of lings because he had his initial lings on the map and was pylon-blocked at his natural. 3. Honestly, I don't know. I always thought that basically no one drone-scouts in ZvP, but apparently there are a number of people who do it. As I said earlier, if you want to drone-scout, I'd advise against 11 or 12 pool because the mineral cost delays your drones quite a bit, contrary to 14 or 15 pool. Regarding lings, Zerg players seem to be confident making only 2 lings if they get their natural hatch down early, giving you one for the towers and one to scout around places your overlords can't cover. No lings early, i.e. before 5:00, at all looks really hazardous to me, but, again, I don't want to say things confidently that I am not knowledgeable about. | ||
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dZn
23 Posts
i tested it a few seconds ago in a build order tester under optimal circumstances and the results show me that this build is behind in every aspect. even a 15 hatch 17 pool gets the pool 13 seconds earlier, has earlier 2 base saturation, much more larva and a mineral difference of 300 in favour of 15 hatch 17 pool. enough reasons to not go 11 hatch. if someone wins with it he is clearly the better player using an inferior build. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On September 22 2012 17:59 dZn wrote: regarding 11 hatch. i tested it a few seconds ago in a build order tester under optimal circumstances and the results show me that this build is behind in every aspect. even a 15 hatch 17 pool gets the pool 13 seconds earlier, has earlier 2 base saturation, much more larva and a mineral difference of 300 in favour of 15 hatch 17 pool. enough reasons to not go 11 hatch. if someone wins with it he is clearly the better player using an inferior build. the only advantage is, that the nat timing is so early, it will not be blocked 95% of games. not worth the behindness imo | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
If you like it fine, play with it, if you don't like don't use it, if you don't know try it and see what you prefer, ladder will give a variety of players and reactions to the opening. Also thinking numbers out of YABOT and spreadsheets give all the answers is a being a bit too confident and flawed, there's a lot more factoring in, like having an expansion down and creep farther out too put spines if needed (which surprised many people out in the day when it was discovered that 15 hatch was better at stopping 2rax than 14/14). As well as your opponent knowing that since you opened like this in 5mn you will no be able to have such or such tech or do such strategy. Sheesh people no need to go balistic over this. | ||
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Resist
14 Posts
On September 22 2012 10:43 TheGreenMachine wrote: Heres the build order in spoiler its quite long, me and a friend have been doin it for like a year in ZvT and ZvP. Its very unstandard, hopefully will spark some ideas :D. Detailed = like 50 steps every larva matters. The game time #s are for your benefit and to gauge if you are doing the build optimally. it is susceptable to cannons but only if you cant micro very well. It kind of asks to be cannoned but has 2 drones designed to defend cannons and bunkers in your nat. The style is mainly lings, since it involves a very quick 4th hatch. Oh and you can even put the 4th hatch at your 4th base if you are ballsy enough, but i wouldnt suggest it against voidray/banshee until you have creep there. The extra mineral patches does help efficiency once you have more than 16 drones per mineral line. most of the reason why its good is because of how detailed it is and how efficently it uses larva, hatch timings, overlord timings, and queen timings. edit: no i didnt write this out just now, ive had it in a notepad for a while xD + Show Spoiler + Random Stats: Ling speed finishes at 6:09 Gas starts at 2:53 put back in gas at 5:41 +1 starts at 6:34 Start 4th hatch at 7:20 5:24 is first tumor Pool starts at 2:41 Pool finishes at 3:48 Extended Version: -10/10 extractor trick+drone -11/10 hatch, send at 200 minerals -10/10 overlord -10/10 extractor trick+drone -as ovie pops 2x drones rallied to natural -next larva is drone, comes right at 50 minerals -micro drones in natural and 14/18 pool -one drone then 14/18 gas -drone until 17/18 -put guys in gas 1 at a time -17/18 drone in natural -18/20 overlord in main -18/20 queen in natural (you have 150 right as pool pops if you did it right) -20/28 2x sets of lings in main -drone to 24/28 -24/28 ling speed, pull off gas 1 at a time -25/28 overlord -spawn larva and send drone to 3rd -31/36 3rd hatch at 3rd base, aim for 5:15 under no pressure -put 3 back on gas right after starting 3rd base -build evo at ~30 gas to have 100 gas for +1 melee when it finishes -3rd set of queen energy is either tumor in your natural, then run to 3rd or run to 3rd after 2nd inject for tumor at your 3rd base once that hatch finishes -your 3rd set of energy will be at 40/44 supply, right as you inject build 2 more queens to hit 44/44 energy lines up -overlord on 44/44, then +1 melee (or as soon as your evo is done and have money for it), then 4th hatch usually as a macro hatch. -after +1 melee is started your next 100 gas is for lair, your queen in main should finish right about when you get 100 gas to start lair. -make 4th queen for your 4th hatch when the hatch is 50% (and it will finish when hatch finishes), if you don't have enough drones to support the hatch you can spread creep with 4th queen in the meantime. -overlord speed for creep spreading is useful to get shortly after lair finishes, as well as an overseer to scout your opponent Notes: -Try to make all ovies in main because it is already saturated, that way other larva for drones are closer to unsaturated bases -Spread your 1 tumor constantly, i suggest rehotkey it every time it spreads -extra queen for 100% spreading tumors is good habit -spreading overlords for vision, and for creep after ovie speed -build drones at hatch nearest to where drones are headed (unsaturated bases) -take gases for a reason, like if you plan to go muta/infestor take all gases but if going ling, bling take only 3-4 gas as you want to be able to use your massive 4 hatch 4 queen larva count. -constantly be using your evo's to upgrade -backup roach warren or baneling nest prevents many dumb losses against surprise mass chargelot or BF hellion -early or late overlords result in hurt income. Its an easy way to optimize your play, don't take it for granted. Vs Terran: -speed kicks in shortly after 2 hellions can be at your base vs standard gas opening, do small amount of queen micro and you can hold them off until speed kicks in. -against gas-first hellion build your lings meet the hellions half way across map, don't build 3rd, build 1 spine crawler soon as u scout it and pull drones into main and queen to ramp. Build 4-6 slow lings so your queen can move from the ramp to spawn larva in natural without letting hellions runby. -sneak a ling to his natural to check when he swaps addons. Typically they swap after 4 hellions, some do it after 6, and some even 8-10 hellions. If he makes more than 4 you should start roach warren and an extra gas as you start the warren. -hydras are your go-to unit. I like to be on 4 gases until I have my 4th somewhat saturated then start infestor pit and hive for ultra lategame. Hydras are decent dps against marines but only if you have lings infront of them. Hydras can also kill drops very fast, about 4 hydras can kill a drop before it can fly away. You can also drop hydras when you get your ultralisk tech finished, this way they trade supply semi-efficiently since they are bad vs 3/3 rines. -overlord speed is very useful in creep spreading especially when using hydras. Vs Protoss: -you can overseer scout at 8:30 or as soon as your lair finishes, this tells you if you need to make roaches to stop his 2 base timing after checking if he has 3 or 4 gas, whether you should mass lings or just tech/upgrade -this fast +1 melee compliments fast +2 baneling drop style vs the +1 finishes in time for many early pushes. -with your first 4 lings you should scout the entire map for proxy pylons with excess apm. DT take almost a full minute longer to run from his base to your base, thats 7:30 instead of 6:30 which is a huge difference. Also makes pushes much easier to defend because you see it coming quicker or he will push without doing a last warpin. Can you provide replays of this build against good players? I'd like to gauge if you're winning because of the build or inspite of the build. Thanks. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On September 22 2012 20:01 NeonFox wrote: Discussing different openings is fine and dandy, but there is a reason nobody (or at least almost nobody, seriously it's been more than a year since I've heard about or saw 11 pool) does it. If you like it fine, play with it, if you don't like don't use it, if you don't know try it and see what you prefer, ladder will give a variety of players and reactions to the opening. Also thinking numbers out of YABOT and spreadsheets give all the answers is a being a bit too confident and flawed, there's a lot more factoring in, like having an expansion down and creep farther out too put spines if needed (which surprised many people out in the day when it was discovered that 15 hatch was better at stopping 2rax than 14/14). As well as your opponent knowing that since you opened like this in 5mn you will no be able to have such or such tech or do such strategy. Sheesh people no need to go balistic over this. You see 11 pool-over (rarely) and 11 overpool (more often) executed from pro's in a BoX here and there (especially against notorious P nat pylon block opponents). Ofc it is not the plain vanilla standard/default opening, however this shows pro's do not consider this as unviable. Some lesser known pros use it frequently. Quite often the casters don't get it and label it as '10 pool'. I think on ladder, where you face a lot of different openings (pros tend to go standard, so they expect this from each other), early pools give you some extra safety. That's why you'll see early pools on ladder more often than in tourney play. The rare use of 11 pool in tourneys indicates its not the best allround build with current metagame at pro level (they probably know what they're doing), however i think if it fits your style, its viable to use this as your default opening up to GM level. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
This doesn't really solve the issue with vulnerability to 3-pylon block but just patrolling a drone/following the probe with a drone, if it allows you to build NO lings through the first 24-30 supply, seems super-economical to me. | ||
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ulfryc
Germany115 Posts
On September 23 2012 01:28 Defenestrator wrote: From looking at some replays, it also seems map-dependent. For example on Cloud, your OL can get to his nat in time to scout anything unusual, so going 14pool/attempting 16hatch and getting blocked, so going to 3rd right away is a viable option without any drone scout--without OL scout you would be vulnerable to some kind of metagaming where he pylon-blocks you going gate-first. Also assuming he lets you take your nat, there's also no real reason to get lings immediately anyway, so it seems safe ot drone straight to like 24+ supply and put down 3 hatches before building a single ling. This doesn't really solve the issue with vulnerability to 3-pylon block but just patrolling a drone/following the probe with a drone, if it allows you to build NO lings through the first 24-30 supply, seems super-economical to me. Even if toss doesn't block you nat, he can still cannon you there. So either you have to have your 2nd OL at your nat, or you need a drone checking for cannons or you just build lings to be sure that he doesnt block 3rd, and to hunt the probe, and to kill pylons on the map. | ||
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