Masters random player here, I was just promoted yesterday (Yay! :D ). I'm currently having huge problems with my ZvP late game. I can crush most all ins if I scout them properly, and I can win this matchup pretty regularly with mass mutas, but there is a point where base trading every game gets annoying, so I'm trying to play more standard and build up the Zerg deathball (BL / Infest / Corruptors).
The problem I have is when facing turltling Protoss. I feel like I don't have a good grasp of the composition I should strive for, and my control is extremely bad. The thing that also depresses me is that when I play PvZ I win with turtle mode every single time : herp derp vortex, herp derp a-move, and win. So I can't copy what good zergs would do to me, as I'm not good enough to face them.
It's pretty obvious that I don't know what to do, I get very scared once the Protoss has his 3rd, and I proceed to get wrecked pretty badly. Also, I read several threads before posting this, and I realize that I take my gas too early and could improve my macro early game. I will work on this and try to get 70 supply by the 8 minute mark. While this would certainly get me wins at my current level, there comes a point where I will have to play the late late game.
So I guess my questions are :
1) Watching the replays, I feel like I don't drone nearly enough after the protoss takes a 3rd. Am I correct to think I should go to 100-110 drones and then put the excess in spines?
2) In an ideal game, what composition should I aim for? How many infestors, how many corruptors?
3) I usually max on roaches/infestors/corruptors to prepare for the protoss 16 mins push before broods, but when it doesn't come the roaches take a lot of supply and aren't really efficient anymore and I generally sacrifice them for very little value (a forge in one of the replay, 2 stargates in another). Should I make less of them, should I keep them in my army and try to push?
4) I usually upgrade missile and carapace for roaches (and infested terrans) and then melee for broodlords. Is this ok, or should I get melee from the beginning?
5) In the big endgame fight, what should be my checklist of things to do? What I mean by that is for example, as Protoss vs a 1-1-1, you want to guardian shield, then forcefield, then focus tanks with immos, etc. The things I can think of in ZvP would be : Split corruptors and BLs as much as possible, throw some infested terrans in front, but then what should I do? A-move with broodlords? Go for the MS with corruptors? Get an infestor in front of the army and try to fungal? I feel my army control is really atrocious and would really need some pointers.
Thanks a ton to whoever reads this and tries to help.
1) you don't need to get 100 drones right when he gets a third that's risky. Depends on what kind of third too. A stargate into "not a gateway followup" aka a third, you drone up like crazy. You should take a fourth and either A) take all 6 gases and go muta asap. get an infestation pit, dual evo chamber and go towards hive. get a good amount of infestors early on, you can pressure with lings. Don't get roaches at this point as they cost gas, tend towards lings to defend (unless he pushes out early and you're not prepared)
2) always depends on the composition he has lol. Some people like light infestor, but I use a lot of them. The key is to NOT attack unless you have an overwhelming force. Think of it as meching with terran. You don't move out at 140 supply with no reason.
3) you either max on roaches at like 11/12 min, or you don't. you don't max out on roaches to face "The 16 min push" you rely on spines and fungals until the BL are out. If he has too much stuff, you can make a bunch of roaches but only when you scout him moving out. Also, if you have a few spare roaches, just set them to counter attack when he moves out. Don't just sac them. To free up supply you make spines
4) i prefer melee. I get +1 missile always (Lair with first 100 gas, ling speed, then +1 missiles)
5) i dunno lol. fungal the stalkers is the priority along with not getting vortex'd. Not having your infestor die is important. I also tend to not make broodlords once they die once. Remax on ultra ling bane in general unless you have the ressources to be able to continue remaking BL (you have to have denied a P base tho). During the first fight, as you lose units, remake ligns and infestors and rally them to the fight. Protoss seems to get excited when they see the vulnerable bl so they warp in a bunch of stalkers and just blink right under, that's where your rallied lings come to play ^_^
Thanks for this, I'll try to change my philosophy on roaches, it's pretty clear I make too many of them and it delays my tech a lot.
For what it's worth I just watched this video by Husky and TLO : Some really good stuff in there, like kiting techniques with BLs that I didn't know about, and general stuff about droning and unit composition.
Also TLO goes for +2/+2 missile/caparace and then +1 melee/+3 carapace, which makes it so that he can use 2 evos longer (going +2 melee and +3 range next I suppose). I like it a lot (way more than I like upgrading +3 attack and +1 shield for protoss, because the +3/+3 timing is really good for Protoss)
Well, this is pretty disheartening. I just played a PvZ where I felt like the Zerg completely outplayed me. He tech switched, he dropped, he sniped the MS a ton of times, and I still won by herp-derping a-moving
Why don't you just pressure his 3rd / 4th with infested marines, while dropping your roaches in his main ? I'm aware that it won't solve your ZvP late game issue, but it's still an idea to be able to have a bit more cost efficiency with the roaches. It will also force him to multitask while replacing them with BL / Infest / Corruptors.
Lategame zvp is really rough for me too. I'm pretty sure its because my control sucks and I usually get vortexed. I'm thinking about just going ultralisk baneling but you can't be aggressive with that. Anyone else have any tips I would love to hear.
The thing about ZvP late game is who gets bored first loses. If you want to win lots of games as Z make a ton of spines and turtle behind them while keep making infestors and brood lords while saccing lings to make supply. Wait for the toss to attack kill the push, max on lings and kill him. That's honestly the best way to play ZvP late game.
I don't think there's much control issues when it comes to vortex, it's just being patient. Pro zergs don't use splitting or gosu control to win the mothership battle (most of the time they actually win by timings, like when that zerg beat hero because his mothership didnt have vortex energy on daybreak).
You need to lay down a ton of IT in front of your broodlords before engaging. here's a really awesome video Oboeman posted on this:
That's the idea you need to go for. Don't ever engage if your infestors are low on energy, always back out before your infestors run out of energy or you just die (i mean literally, if your broods dont have any infestor support mass stalkers will just own them, as well as motherships that just bumrush to vortex).
A little more I'd add to this video, is that adding 6+ corruptors with upgraded air attack, with corruption, which is a super fucking awesome yet underrated spell, it really makes a huge difference, will end a mothership so fast. Ground toss won't attack the corruptors since they will attack broodlings/broodlords/IT first, so 6 corruptors can usually go in unimpeded, as they just rape a mothership so fast. Then with the IT spam, the Toss literally has no choice but to back off and die to the corruptors, or rush forward to vortex before dying but then get raped by the IT before it gets in range. Just have the broodlords on a hotkey so you can pull them back when that mothership starts charging forward.
1) Watching the replays, I feel like I don't drone nearly enough after the protoss takes a 3rd. Am I correct to think I should go to 100-110 drones and then put the excess in spines?
2) In an ideal game, what composition should I aim for? How many infestors, how many corruptors?
3) I usually max on roaches/infestors/corruptors to prepare for the protoss 16 mins push before broods, but when it doesn't come the roaches take a lot of supply and aren't really efficient anymore and I generally sacrifice them for very little value (a forge in one of the replay, 2 stargates in another). Should I make less of them, should I keep them in my army and try to push?
4) I usually upgrade missile and carapace for roaches (and infested terrans) and then melee for broodlords. Is this ok, or should I get melee from the beginning?
5) In the big endgame fight, what should be my checklist of things to do? What I mean by that is for example, as Protoss vs a 1-1-1, you want to guardian shield, then forcefield, then focus tanks with immos, etc. The things I can think of in ZvP would be : Split corruptors and BLs as much as possible, throw some infested terrans in front, but then what should I do? A-move with broodlords? Go for the MS with corruptors? Get an infestor in front of the army and try to fungal? I feel my army control is really atrocious and would really need some pointers.
1. Yes. So what I would do, is when Toss goes for his third, is take my fourth, and then instantly saturate it with 24 drones. I'd still mass lings in case Toss pushed out 'when he shouldn't' (upgraded zealots will still tear through anything less than mass ling, so you still need to pump units as a fast third toss can still get +1 zealots quickly).
2. 3/3/3, 3/3 12+ broodlords, 6+ corruptors, 8+ infestors. I generally aim for about 10 infestors, 6-8 corruptors, the rest broodlords.
3. Maxing out on roaches is probably a big part of why you lose. It's literally all-inning when you max out on roaches. That would be like if Terran maxed out on marine/marauder, and then cried when they lost to broodlords, or Toss maxing out on stalkers and then getting raped by ultras. If Toss goes for a quick third, you dont want to make a single roach or even a roach warren if possible. You should only make roaches if you are forced to, ie toss does a 2 base all-in or pressure, really. Consider getting even roach speed against a macro toss a serious loss. The more roaches you make, the later your hive tech, and you really can't combat colossus without hive tech. I don't even make a roach warren or get roach speed or any roach upgrades if Toss goes for a quick third (you still need to pump lings though, again, because of upgraded zealots).
Also, even if toss is doing a 2 base all-in, at most you'd want 20 roaches against a heavy immortal/sentry all-in. You want to be more ling heavy. Massing roaches is really all-in and totally delays your tech. It would be like maxing out on roaches in ZvZ and the opponent has moved on to roach/hydra/infestor with 3/3.
4. They're all fine. personally I go for melee/carapace upgrades at the start, get a 2nd evo only when I know toss is going to go for his third and I start going for hive, and I'll actually go for missile upgrades (for infestors) after I've gotten 3/3 melee/carapace. Roaches benefit a lot from +missile, so it can be really handy in dealing with 2 base aggression.
5. Splitting really isn't that huge a deal imo (i mean split a little bit, dont be one bit clump.... just magic box your broodlords, like move command far away then hit hold position). I'd say spam IT slightly in front of your broods, focus fire the mothership with corruptors and corrupt it, FG stalkers and mothership if it gets close, pull back broodlords if mothership tries to get in range to vortex. Never engage without IT spam in front of broods.
Anyways, which of the 3 replays do you think would be best for me to watch? Sorry, just a little crunched for time :X
EPT
