EPT[G] Synystyr's Guide to Sky Terran in TvP - Page 4
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On August 02 2012 22:42 Ignorant prodigy wrote: a PF at your natural is a bit overkill IMO. Having lots of orbitals is never a bad thing.. you can out mine extended expansions much quicker with mass mule drops.. and sac SCVs to increase your army size.. I can see a PF at your 4th and even your 3rd if you’re paranoid. You can hold what they throw at you early game if you scout well enough. PF at nat is a must imo with this playstyle. Its impossible to expand AND tech AND build an army at the same time. But Sky Terran requires a lot of expos to get the gas geysers it needs to work. And Starport tech is at the very top of the tech tree. So you are going to have to lean on a very small army on 2-3 bases. By the time the Protoss punches out a 6gate or a 3 Gate Blink you will only have 2-3 Cloak Banshees plus 1 bunker full of Marines. Thats not enough, you need the PF. You don't want to mine out extended expansions with mass mule drops. Sky Terran is so mineral-light that there are many games where I never mine out my main. SCV sac to megamax is not really a good idea with Sky Terran either. Because most of our SCVs will be on gas, which cannot be replaced by MULE. And also, we want a good number of SCVs spread out at every expo to repair PFs and any air fleets pasing by. Its a real pain to pull SCVs off gas to repair, so there should be at least 4-12 mineral mining SCVs at every expo. With Sky Terran mass orbital is more useful for scan than megamax. You never want to max with a sky terran army because it takes forever to rebuild if you do lose it. That goes double for a megamax army. | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
To each their own I suppose. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On August 03 2012 02:59 Synystyr wrote: Curious as to how you know that, was the game streamed? CreatorPrime is a GSL level player. I am merely a low-mid level Masters who is trying something new. I was absolutely ecstatic about getting to play against Creator though, and I think that there was a definite possibility that I could have won the game. Had I scouted better, noticed he was committing to only Phoenixes and gotten out more Vikings rather than made more Banshees, I feel like I could've won the game once I took Air control and started to snowball the game. I never tried a Thor transition also. I made a few crucial mistakes that game. I didn't retreat properly when I saw his phoenixes and lost my entire Banshee army due to a misclick. I also allowed him to scout my 5 starports too soon, which allowed him to get the proper AA units out. Given another chance, I would love to try playing Sky Terran against him again, as I still think it's viable. Here is the replay! http://drop.sc/232859 WP to him regardless I just watched this replay. I think you were doing fine for a while in this game, but like you said, you didn't scout the 2stargate Phoenix until late. What would have helped against this, had you seen it, would be earlier BCs. I think massing banshees is fine when the protoss doesn't make a stargate or two and gives up air control, but if the toss decides to go air, you probably should stop or minimalize banshee production. BCs are good against Phoenixes because they have very high base armor, so it forces the Toss to make another form of anti-air. More turrets would have helped...you had almost none at your third and fourth. Thors wouldn't hurt, either, but the main thing would be to have BCs because Phoenixes counter support-less Vikings. | ||
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PVequalsNRT
United States12 Posts
The more I open hellion maurader, the more I like it. Maybe its just because I like hellions.  http://drop.sc/234064 | ||
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kaokentake
383 Posts
On August 03 2012 21:26 RoboBob wrote: PF at nat is a must imo with this playstyle. Its impossible to expand AND tech AND build an army at the same time. But Sky Terran requires a lot of expos to get the gas geysers it needs to work. And Starport tech is at the very top of the tech tree. So you are going to have to lean on a very small army on 2-3 bases. By the time the Protoss punches out a 6gate or a 3 Gate Blink you will only have 2-3 Cloak Banshees plus 1 bunker full of Marines. Thats not enough, you need the PF. You don't want to mine out extended expansions with mass mule drops. Sky Terran is so mineral-light that there are many games where I never mine out my main. SCV sac to megamax is not really a good idea with Sky Terran either. Because most of our SCVs will be on gas, which cannot be replaced by MULE. And also, we want a good number of SCVs spread out at every expo to repair PFs and any air fleets pasing by. Its a real pain to pull SCVs off gas to repair, so there should be at least 4-12 mineral mining SCVs at every expo. With Sky Terran mass orbital is more useful for scan than megamax. You never want to max with a sky terran army because it takes forever to rebuild if you do lose it. That goes double for a megamax army. there used to be a bunch of maps where PF at your natural hardly even defends you much from anything. but maps like that have been phased out of existence mostly desert oasis is one example, of course thats 2+years old one good modern example is entombed valley. A pf at your natural there does ZERO in defending protoss aggression on that map. its a very strange map. a PF at your third also sucks on entomed. but its a strange map where theres like 1choke for your natural and third And theres some other maps where PF at your natural is easy for toss to just walk by not saying any builds bad or anything was just commentating on my thoughts on pf at naturals | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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kaokentake
383 Posts
On August 04 2012 03:19 ineversmile wrote: I just watched this replay. I think you were doing fine for a while in this game, but like you said, you didn't scout the 2stargate Phoenix until late. What would have helped against this, had you seen it, would be earlier BCs. I think massing banshees is fine when the protoss doesn't make a stargate or two and gives up air control, but if the toss decides to go air, you probably should stop or minimalize banshee production. BCs are good against Phoenixes because they have very high base armor, so it forces the Toss to make another form of anti-air. More turrets would have helped...you had almost none at your third and fourth. Thors wouldn't hurt, either, but the main thing would be to have BCs because Phoenixes counter support-less Vikings. pheonix is a definite heavy counter to sky terran (before BC's) 1 pheonix, cost for cost, is SOO much stronger and more powerful than a viking. It has like TWICE the health and equal damage to eachother, but they cost the same (pheonix is 25 more gas, whatever) the best counter cost for cost scouting heavy sky terran is definitely pheonix. 2 stargates is not that much money (300/300 compared to 200/200 cloak) and lets a toss crank out like 4 pheonix a minute which can kill 6-7 vikings a minute with guardian shield soaking a couple shots before the sentry dies i still think sky terran is viable, however protosses best counter is most likely pheonix (as creator showed). pheonix is such a strong counter, it forces terran to stop his lowtech sky play and he must probably get to BC's faster, possibly with some thors maybe or just bio/bunkers/vikings to serve as defense while BC's come out | ||
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
On August 05 2012 06:14 PVequalsNRT wrote: Hey guys, I just wanted to share a replay of me opening hellion maurader into this build on Shakuras. This is vs a ~1200 master protoss. The more I open hellion maurader, the more I like it. Maybe its just because I like hellions. http://drop.sc/234064 That looked like a fun game, but I think most things work against a protoss who has 24 probes at 11 min.. But it does show that even master players can think that collossi/immortal is a goto composition against mass banshees. Personally, I have never been able to make it work, I get too crushed by HT:s. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
I mean perhaps the marauders at the front is a clever trick, and the turrets help, but most toss should sniff it out pretty easily imo. | ||
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
toss crank out like 4 pheonix a minute which can kill 6-7 vikings a minute with guardian shield soaking a couple shots before the sentry dies The problem with this is that the more phoenix P makes the easier it is for T to mass expand with PFs and hide behind a turret wall. Sure it locks down T's own aggression but only as far as you have enough Phoenix, if you make too many T can wipe it out end game with 3:3 BC and HSM. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
2-base Terran can only produce 4.5 banshee per minute and each starport requires 125 gas just to build (with a tech lab). Meanwhile Protoss can produce stalkers at half the gas price from 150 mineral only buildings. Am I missing something? Or does this strategy rely on the opponent not scouting or not knowing how to play against it? | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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guN-viCe
United States687 Posts
Blink works good as well(vs harass). I guess the game hinges on if Protoss can keep his observers alive. I think this strategy is a little cheesy, but still decent and it's a nice write-up. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
In many respects it seems very similar to bio play, it's all about multi task, harass and out manoeuvring your opponent. But it also shares the same weak points, you can still lose your army in an instant if you mis-micro or just aren't watching your units. Like bio you need to be avoiding storms, and feedbacks, and while you don't have colossi to worry about, you do have phoenix which are kinda similar in that you need to scout them coming, prepare and kite against them. However the great weakness is that unlike bio it is very hard to put on direct frontal pressure. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On August 05 2012 06:30 kaokentake wrote: there used to be a bunch of maps where PF at your natural hardly even defends you much from anything. but maps like that have been phased out of existence mostly desert oasis is one example, of course thats 2+years old one good modern example is entombed valley. A pf at your natural there does ZERO in defending protoss aggression on that map. its a very strange map. a PF at your third also sucks on entomed. but its a strange map where theres like 1choke for your natural and third And theres some other maps where PF at your natural is easy for toss to just walk by not saying any builds bad or anything was just commentating on my thoughts on pf at naturals Yes some maps like emtomb have bad expos for PFs. Pure Sky TvP is not viable on those types of maps. Its a big reason why I have that map vetoed even though I'm Terran. You can try to play very greedy and try to go with OC at nat on any map with this playstyle...but any good protoss will scout that and kill you before you get more than 2-3 cloak banshees. Without properly positioned PFs you will lose base trades with this playstyle. | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
On August 05 2012 22:15 MockHamill wrote: Is it not very easy to counter this style? All you have to do is produce pure stalkers and camp the Terran 3rd so that he can never take it. 2-base Terran can only produce 4.5 banshee per minute and each starport requires 125 gas just to build (with a tech lab). Meanwhile Protoss can produce stalkers at half the gas price from 150 mineral only buildings. Am I missing something? Or does this strategy rely on the opponent not scouting or not knowing how to play against it? Pure stalker sitting at the terran 3rd is not the answer. Ok you stop me from getting my 3rd.. but.. my buildings fly… so I fly my 3rd command center to another base which is close by air.. seeing as how my army flies.. this is not an issue to defend Oh wait… I have 3 vikings and a raven.. I’ve now killed your obs and my banshees are killing your ‘less than even trade’ stalkers. Oh you’ve somehow managed to get like 10 cannons up at my 3rd because I’m terrible… Ok then I just fly my army across the map and start killing you. Pretty sure you’re criticizing people who “don’t know how to fight it” when you yourself “don’t know how to fight it” Oh and to quote a friend of mine.. “even if you can see a banshee it can still f*ckin’ kill you” They actually have decent DPS and can fight straight up against stalkers even uncloaked. Once you start mixing in BCs then it usually comes down to macro and avoiding storms with the banshees. Which IMO is much easier than BIO because there’s no forcefields and you have the air advantage.. no restrictions in movement. | ||
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
That said I really really have troubles surviving the early game. I was using the cloak banshee expand build described in the OP and I dont think I managed to win a single game against a 1base protoss. 4 gates hits before you have banshee/cloak out, and even if the banshee finishes before the attack hits, it just doesnt change much since he can kill everything you have while ignoring the banshee (see Mondragon vs that toss who opened stargate (Nightend?) from TSL3, same idea  )Maybe going Bomber 1rax FE, and then at the point where you add medivacs you instead start adding banshees. Then cut down on bio production progressively while adding startports would work, but it feels like it would delay our tech (and/or third base) too much. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On August 07 2012 16:35 BobMcJohnson wrote: I started playing with this yesterday and I must say that I like it quite a lot. Feels a bit easier to play than bio and it's refreshing to not have to worry about colossi. That said I really really have troubles surviving the early game. I was using the cloak banshee expand build described in the OP and I dont think I managed to win a single game against a 1base protoss. 4 gates hits before you have banshee/cloak out, and even if the banshee finishes before the attack hits, it just doesnt change much since he can kill everything you have while ignoring the banshee (see Mondragon vs that toss who opened stargate (Nightend?) from TSL3, same idea )Maybe going Bomber 1rax FE, and then at the point where you add medivacs you instead start adding banshees. Then cut down on bio production progressively while adding startports would work, but it feels like it would delay our tech (and/or third base) too much. The key to defeating 4 gates is a bunker. Just 1 bunker at your choke with 4 SCVs waiting to repair is all you need. If they do 4 gate with sentries and try to FF your buner, then Banshees killing everything. If they do 4 gate with Stalkers then you pull 8 additional SCVs (plus 2 per banshee) and focus down Stalkers. 2 Banshees kill 3 Stalkers, but 2 Banshees and 2 SCVs kill 4 Stalkers. The Bomber build is great but it is so mineral intensive that it takes you a long time to reach that critical 8 geysers that makes Sky Terran click. It is also time intensive as well; if you waste time researching stim/shields/shells and getting Reactors then your Cloak and 6+ Starports will be massively delayed. By the time Banshees start to pop Protoss will almost always have 2-3 Obs on your half of the map, which will make it really hard to depend upon Cloak to repel those dangerous 2-3 base timings when you are trying to mass expand. I guess I'm more of a purist. I think it is much stronger to focus on one goal (mass banshee/viking on 4 base asap) then to dilute goals (open with a fast expand, go for a bio timing attack, tech switch into mass banshee/viking). The more choices you make, the more chances you can make a mistake. Yes you learn from these mistakes, but its easier to learn a lesson that is attatched to one goal ("Gee I guess I was too greedy getting my Starports up") than myltiple goals ("hmm not sure if I lost that game because I was too greedy and passive with my expo, or if it was because I messed up my timing, or if it was because I was too greedy getting my Starports up") The Bomber build is standard for a good reason. It isn't hard countered by anything, and it is not map dependent. It also has a high skillcap because all of its units are so micro-friendly. Sky Terran can be hard countered and it is map dependent. But it can still be viable. | ||
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IcemanA
Canada10 Posts
Synystr.....This build rocks  After 2-3 botched attempts, I went on a run of 9 consecutive TvP wins with this. Here's how I've found the build working:-The first banshee goes to kill workers, waits for obs to show up and then runs for it. Generally P doesnt respond well by attacking my base, and sits home to build up forces instead. -Build up starports after the first 3 or so units produced at the first port, usually up to 3-4 before pushing out with around 8 banshees, 1-3 vikings, and 2-3 ravens. This push usually ends the game. If not, a susequent push with twice the unit count (3 vikings max usually, ravens at a 1:5 ratio to banshees usually) ends it. -Defending at home with 1-3 bunkers works well enough to delay an attack until the banshee fleet returns home to defend. I've mixed between OCs and PFs at nat and 3rd, and I've never pushed out with marines or any ground troops. Also have never built BCs. The usual protoss response after the first banshee is more stalkers. Turrets and ravens ofter catch the observers so maybe few P at my level see the sky terran style coming even after the first banshee....I still see immo and colossi get built. I have had 2 P use HTs as a counter, but I was able to not get hit enough to be hurt, and feedback wasnt used effectively on PDDs. Pheonixes I've seen once, but extra ravens and vikings worked fine. I was able to beat a blink stalker player once on ohana, despite him taking out several tech labs on starports, by massing the air army and focusing on picking the best engagement possible, while leaving marines and hellions along the edges of the base, and of course lots of sensor towers. Another blink stalker player hit me before i even had a second starport or turrets, so I lost that one. Once I didnt see the toss ground army move out and I was 3/4 to their base by the time the large gateway+collossus army hit my front door. I turned my army around, killed them off (after they got killed my nat and got into the main), and then hit their base. I agree that this is a great great build defensively, and can pull games from sure loss to easy win if engaging well The BIGGEST loss I've had (out of like 3-4 losses since using this style) was against a high-gold player who I didnt pressure enough, and he transitioned beautifully to stalker, HT, archon, mothership. A complete loss due to a poor engagement in which I got archon toilet-ed. I should have let his slow MS travel to my base, then base traded and tried to pincer his army after crippling his base.Overall: This has been an insanely fun build to use, and i'm 90% with it. Highly recommended. Perhaps I'll throw up a replay or two sometime of losses to get some suggests on where i should have improved (again I'm silver so there's probably lots to choose from ;-) ). | ||
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