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I love the discussion going on in here  RoboBob definitely seems to know quite a bit about Sky Terran, which is really awesome since I actually haven't had many people to discuss it with and really developed most of this on my own. Really good shit, his insight is great.
I myself have found that faster tech is super important, and try to get it as fast as possible off a 1 Rax FE now. I like your points about cloak being a defensive tool, rather than an offensive. one. It's extremely true, as you can reset an engagement by sniping the obs and the reinforcement time will be too long for the Protoss to keep up with their push.
Do any of you guys have replays I could take a look at? Preferably anything that goes into the later stages of the game where the initial pushes don't kill the Protoss, but they stabalize and it plays out. I love being able to analyze things and it'd be nice to get inside the heads of other Sky Terran players.
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i watched one of your losses
noticed something
the toss dont need to be agressive he just need to outexpand you and win with nummbers
since you cant attack him under 10 min with a army
i mean the few banshees you have he can defend with stalker obs
and if you make 2 rax opener it takes time until the first banshee gets out on that time he can expand on his 3rd
marine/ banshee is very cost effetive and has high dps
my suggestion is maybe get asap a medivac drop 8 marine from 1 base
and on the same time rush with 3-4 hellions on his expand and do dmg
and follow up with expansion banshee play
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On July 28 2012 12:44 perser84 wrote:
i watched one of your losses
noticed something
the toss dont need to be agressive he just need to outexpand you and win with nummbers
since you cant attack him under 10 min with a army
i mean the few banshees you have he can defend with stalker obs
and if you make 2 rax opener it takes time until the first banshee gets out on that time he can expand on his 3rd
marine/ banshee is very cost effetive and has high dps
my suggestion is maybe get asap a medivac drop 8 marine from 1 base
and on the same time rush with 3-4 hellions on his expand and do dmg
and follow up with expansion banshee play
it's not about attacking him... at least this isn't the only way tto play with air
your banshes keep him in his home while you expand everywhere
he ccan move out butt that's why you shoud have lots of base (PFs), so that you will have ahuge adv in base race (esp on maps like shak, where there is SO much space to float off buildinsg and move your army safely thru)
and lik MMM drops, right when theyy move out ur air fleets move in to start killing him
i'm sure a marine drop + hellion opener kindf of 111 will also work well,, it works similarly to a [cloak] banshee opening, so if u want to open 111 or 1 base i guess u could use the one that's better for that specific map
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On July 28 2012 12:02 Synystyr wrote:I love the discussion going on in here RoboBob definitely seems to know quite a bit about Sky Terran, which is really awesome since I actually haven't had many people to discuss it with and really developed most of this on my own. Really good shit, his insight is great. I myself have found that faster tech is super important, and try to get it as fast as possible off a 1 Rax FE now. I like your points about cloak being a defensive tool, rather than an offensive. one. It's extremely true, as you can reset an engagement by sniping the obs and the reinforcement time will be too long for the Protoss to keep up with their push. Do any of you guys have replays I could take a look at? Preferably anything that goes into the later stages of the game where the initial pushes don't kill the Protoss, but they stabalize and it plays out. I love being able to analyze things and it'd be nice to get inside the heads of other Sky Terran players.
Here's a late-game TvP that I played a few days ago and was pretty happy about it. I botched my initial harass and the Protoss took a big economic lead. But I managed to claw my way back into the game by mass expanding and trading Banshees for Nexii: http://drop.sc/229723
(I'm only diamond BTW, but I have a lot of experience playing Sky Terran TvP)
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On July 29 2012 01:29 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 12:02 Synystyr wrote:I love the discussion going on in here RoboBob definitely seems to know quite a bit about Sky Terran, which is really awesome since I actually haven't had many people to discuss it with and really developed most of this on my own. Really good shit, his insight is great. I myself have found that faster tech is super important, and try to get it as fast as possible off a 1 Rax FE now. I like your points about cloak being a defensive tool, rather than an offensive. one. It's extremely true, as you can reset an engagement by sniping the obs and the reinforcement time will be too long for the Protoss to keep up with their push. Do any of you guys have replays I could take a look at? Preferably anything that goes into the later stages of the game where the initial pushes don't kill the Protoss, but they stabalize and it plays out. I love being able to analyze things and it'd be nice to get inside the heads of other Sky Terran players. Here's a late-game TvP that I played a few days ago and was pretty happy about it. I botched my initial harass and the Protoss took a big economic lead. But I managed to claw my way back into the game by mass expanding and trading Banshees for Nexii: http://drop.sc/229723(I'm only diamond BTW, but I have a lot of experience playing Sky Terran TvP)
I watched your replay. It was extreeeeemely helpful in a bunch of different ways. The Protoss you played was nothing special, and I never felt like you were in any trouble the whole game. What I did learn though, was that you can support 5 starports off 2 bases quite well. I've been using that extra starport and have definitely noticed a difference in production.
I also found that skipping right to Banshee tech and surviving on just my bunkers allows me to get my Banshees out just in the nick of time to defend any ground based allins. It was awesome to watch another Sky Terran play. If you end having any close games or good replays you'd like to share, I'd absolutely love to see more. Thanks!!
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I’ve been preaching sky terran for months. People shot me down saying if scouted it’s easy to stop. People in game saying it will never work outside of diamond.
Glad there’s some actual ‘viability’ testing going on.
I’ve been playing it out for awhile and personally I feel like jumping straight into the banshee’s resulted in most of my losses.. so I’ve been delaying my starports to get a few siege tanks out.
I’ve found with the mobility of air supremacy and PFs make it actually easier for terran to out expand the protoss.. protoss has to invest a lot in cannons to protect their base and the typical ground army to fight sky terran (i.e. high templar) are amongst the slowest in the game.
Wasting money on bio is a mistake… if you float 2K then build orbitals and planetaries instead of marines to spend your minerals. All your gas should be on your air army and tech and you need that food in air army.. marines in lategame PvT are beyond useless when un-upgraded. They will just take up food.
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Mid master (~900 points) terran here. I've been using this build ever since I saw this guide come up a week or so ago, and I'm really loving the style. My TvP win ratio has noticably improved (or so I feel) with this unit composition. Additionally I enjoy using 2 reactor factories instead of bio in the late game because I find it a better mineral dump and they tend to allow you to be passive with your actual army while maintaining the harrass you need to keep protoss from expanding everywhere.
Thanks for the build!
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Great guide, looking forward to watching the replays and trying it out. I do have a couple of questions though for whoever wants to answer, synstyr or robowar or whoever.
How many ravens do you aim for by late game? Just the 2? Or do you go up to 3 or 4 for more redundancy? Their build time and energy charging take so long that only 2 seems risky, getting even 1 of them sniped off seems like a big blow.
@Robowar Do you ever get extra in-base orbitals for scan? I like the idea of PF expanding even at the nat but scans are so useful. Even extra ravens for detection can be slow and vulnerable, and an orbital can quickly pay for itself with a few mules and then be just for scans. I find scan to be so invaluable, for scouting ahead of attacks, seeing their base, picking off observers, etc, that I don't want to sacrifice too much of it.
@PVequalsNRT How do approach your engagements with hellion+air force? Mineral dumping into hellions seems like an interesting idea, cost is similar to marines mineral dumping, but the hellion's high speed may complement a fast air army well, need less upgrades, and have more retreat/kite capability.
Also, how many hellions do you need to mass for a stable ground force with your attack for this style? The need for AA may force more stalkers than chargelots, and hellions will obviously be absorbing hits like vultures in BW TvP, but basically how many hellions do you need to attack, and how few do you drop to before you retreat and regroup with reinforcements?
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@PVequalsNRT How do approach your engagements with hellion+air force? Mineral dumping into hellions seems like an interesting idea, cost is similar to marines mineral dumping, but the hellion's high speed may complement a fast air army well, need less upgrades, and have more retreat/kite capability.
Also, how many hellions do you need to mass for a stable ground force with your attack for this style? The need for AA may force more stalkers than chargelots, and hellions will obviously be absorbing hits like vultures in BW TvP, but basically how many hellions do you need to attack, and how few do you drop to before you retreat and regroup with reinforcements?
Typically, I'm using hellions to punish bases that the protoss are trying to take. I will literally throw away a dozen hellions, ignoring any stalkers or cannons, to clear as many probes as I can. These are not meant to be super cost efficient, just to slow down your opponent's economy as much as possible. Similar to a zerg throwing army after army in different locations while pooling up infestors and other high tech units. Against a protoss that is expanding wide and far, hellions are fast and are much cheaper to lose for probes than the critical mass of banshees you're trying to build up. Against a protoss that is balling up very defensively, taking less bases, and moving for a more concentrated push, hellions are less useful, though still not bad to build. Just don't let them hog supply that could be taken by a banshee.
If the protoss has high numbers of collosus/chargelots, perhaps building them before he has scouted that you're going skyterran, your hellions will do poorly. This is very good for your air units, but mostly bad for your hellions. Before commiting to major battles, make sure to have thrown them away and ensure that your maxed supply is filled with more air units. That being said, most protosses will have their slow moving ball of templar in the back that can be harrassed with just a few (6-8) cost efficient hellions.
Against a protoss that has committed to primarily stalker/templar/archon, hellions can again regain a bit of usefulness. The line aoe of the hellion is great for distributing damage across the protoss' whole army and distract stalkers in the back from shooting your banshees. They're also fast to build, so after large engagements, hellions can be used to pump up an army faster than with just your starports alone, not to mention that after a fight is exactly when you want to start reharrassing bases
Regarding your raven query, I get 2-3, though I'll admit that since this build is gas limited, I save scans for my vikings to kill observers more than I rely on my ravens to detect.
Hope that was helpful.
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On August 01 2012 07:19 PVequalsNRT wrote:
Mid master (~900 points) terran here. I've been using this build ever since I saw this guide come up a week or so ago, and I'm really loving the style. My TvP win ratio has noticably improved (or so I feel) with this unit composition. Additionally I enjoy using 2 reactor factories instead of bio in the late game because I find it a better mineral dump and they tend to allow you to be passive with your actual army while maintaining the harrass you need to keep protoss from expanding everywhere.
Thanks for the build!
I really like the idea of using hellions as a possible mineral dump. They do quite okay against Stalkers and would be great at soaking damage for the Air units. Also, you can go in ahead of time with them and try to snipe HTs. I'll have to give this a whirl....do you have any replays where this is extremely successful, and another where it isn't?
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....do you have any replays where this is extremely successful, and another where it isn't?
Yeah, quite a few, though I need to get home first. They'll be up in a few hours
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On August 01 2012 08:12 Fyrewolf wrote:
Great guide, looking forward to watching the replays and trying it out. I do have a couple of questions though for whoever wants to answer, synstyr or robowar or whoever.
How many ravens do you aim for by late game? Just the 2? Or do you go up to 3 or 4 for more redundancy? Their build time and energy charging take so long that only 2 seems risky, getting even 1 of them sniped off seems like a big blow. I'm not a huge fan of the Raven in lategame TvP. Phoenix chomp up Ravens because they're Light. Feedback will one shot them, and Ravens are useless without energy. Scan is superior for killing obs because while Ravens can be focused down, nobody can stop scan.
I will make at least 1 Raven 1 Viking in the early-midgame to clear my base of obs before slamming down a gazillion Starports. And I will bring that Raven+Viking with me on my first big push to clear out obs midmap. But thats pretty much it.
The only scenario when I build a bunch of Ravens is if the Protoss commits to a pure Gateway army (so no Templar). PDD is amazing against pure Stalkers just like it is in any 1-1-1 allin. But most Protoss are smart enough to not rely upon pure Stalker for antiair.
@Robowar Do you ever get extra in-base orbitals for scan? I like the idea of PF expanding even at the nat but scans are so useful. Even extra ravens for detection can be slow and vulnerable, and an orbital can quickly pay for itself with a few mules and then be just for scans. I find scan to be so invaluable, for scouting ahead of attacks, seeing their base, picking off observers, etc, that I don't want to sacrifice too much of it. I do make macro orbitals lategame for scan, but I never plan to do it. Its more "oops I messed up my macro, how do I best minimize the damage I did to myself"
Its not a huge deal because I've discovered that Sky Terran doesn't need scan nearly as much as standard play. With standard TvP, if you mis-position then you will lose entire armies to forcefields. Thats bad, so you're forced to scan a ton to make sure that never happens. However because Sky Terran is immune to FF, you don't need to worry about being caught out of position as much. You can always fly away, so you don't need that scan as much.
With more scans you can force more obs. Which is nice, although it is questionable whether a 550 mineral structure is worth *maybe* killing a few more obs. I think trading scans for obs in standard TvP is worth it because it eats into the Protoss' Robo build time. But with Sky Terran, if the Protoss has any brains then they will only be making Observers from their Robo anyway.
The only situation where I need lots of scan in the lategame is when Protoss go cannon crazy. The best way to deal with mass cannon as Sky Terran is to mix in a handful of Ghosts and use scan to nuke from the max 12 range, which is just out of sight range of Cannons. Ghosts are a good fit for this role because you only need to make 1 or 2 production facilities for them to do the job quickly and adaquately. Tanks take forever to crawl across a cannon field and require a lot of attention, Bio won't have the upgrades to trade cost-efficiently, and Sky units can't trade cost-effectively. Yeah you can PDD or Yamato but given how cheap Cannons are I think energy on those units is more valuble than those resources. Especially when there are HTs on the field.
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Sky Terran isn't abused enough. I got so sick of the state of TvP that I started 2 port Banshee every game and I'm around 70-80% win rate against Protoss.
Thanks for the guide.
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Great guide and discussion. I've been enjoying this play style vs. Protoss, despite never doing it as correctly as what's mentioned in the comments. Love the hellions as mineral dump as well. Thanks for everyone's insight!
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I used to have a very specific build where I opened 2 thors where I would deliberately let my opponent scout it by waiting to kill obs until Thor was revealed and having the Thors at my ramp. I would go for a fake push with 2 thors and a bunch of marines while teching to 3 starports off 2 bases and eventually getting a 3rd. All to force robo units. I found out that I wanted the build was more relying on my opponent not scouting it and thereby the build was far too gimmicky for me who wants to improve, so I stopped doing it. Did have quite alot of wins on it, but this was back in the "Slag pits" days.
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How do you make vikings in this build? do you have 3 ports for banshees and 1 port for vikings?
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Hey guys! I just used this build in a Diamond level TvP... Worked Beautifully!
He attacked early on, but my two bunkers with repair held easily. I just started making Banshees and 1 Raven after that. Got up a few of them, and pushed. Totally crushed through his front with PDD-Banshee, and took out his expo. He had a few Voids, but my Marines kept them at bay.
Needless to say, my macro was AWFUL during that time, because I was pumped, but it's definitely a very strong build!
+1, nice work OP.
Here's my replay:
+ Show Spoiler +
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practiced this build for around 1 week, my problems are about :
- Aggressive Toss
- Phoenixs play
- HTs counter
Maybe I was very bad in engagement or it's hard to play with HTs and Phoenix tech, any help ?
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Hi there
I've played some games vs top diamond Protoss with using kinda similar style, but I'm still focusing on bio army. Actually, my composition was standart mmm + banshees.
The most awesome part of this composition - when you have so many banshees, your opponent has to be passive OR do invest in static defense + doing awesome observer placements and, the most important one: going mostly stalkers instead of zealots. And bio are crushes that army easily. At least more easily.
HTs is not a big problem because you can drain energy from your own banshees by switching on/off cloak ability, and storms can be easily dodged because of speed and ability to actually FLY over battlefield.
Colossi are even less problem because of 4 freaking starports.
In addition, you have less ground army, so it does damage better because of small size (every unit do damage) and being not clumped and stacked is REALLY helpful, because AOE of protoss does less damage, because it really more easy to spread more smaller army.
+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/232419
I've played with my mate 5 games, and he already knows, that I CAN do "stuff with mass banshees"
As you can clearly see, there are tons of improvements can be done on this
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EPT
