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On July 20 2012 04:52 dTox wrote:
It does work, you get double gas earlier @ 36 and you have it in time, maybe a few seconds late but its a small price to pay for a fraction of the cost of roach/ling to completely decimate the all in. It is a hard counter, you just drop the blings on the sentries and just crush him with lings. The trouble with ling/bane, as you said, its weak VS 4 gate (but there are ways around it). It is also weak in the mid-game and opens you up for some nasty immortal/archon timings.
No you should always avoid chokes, remember their army will always be clumped regardless of what part of the map they're in your fungals will always hit everything cos its Protoss. @ 12 minutes you should destroy sentry immortall all in with roach ling, it was just some bad engagements, a little missed timing (infestors a little late) and dodgy macro (some missed injects, too few drones, too much gas, etc). Like i said, a lot harder to beat the all in then perform it as we all knew already.
stop saying that, no one in tournament play has used ling/baneling to stop immortal/sentry all-ins. Please, provide a vod or replay where someone stopped an immortal/sentry all-in that moved out by 9:30 and is shooting your base by 10:30.
And it's irrelevant to the discussion anyways, we have to stick with a roach/ling core because of the 4 gate +1 timing. And double gas at 36 I'm sure works, it's just way earlier than most zergs do these days. As you can see in the replay, I hold just fine with 3xgas at 6:30, which is more popular these days than the fast lair and fast gas of 2xgas at 6:00. It's like a loss of 5-10 drones (i've never seen stephano hit 80+, definitely not, at least not with 2xgas at 6:00). The problem wasn't even the 4gate +1 itself, it was the transition and effect of holding it that was a problem.
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I'll have to agree with Oboeman, start your lair and cancel it if you are really being pressured. Gives you much better timing windows techwise. Had you put it down after you got those 3 roaches, you would have been fine for a baneling drop transition even with the delayed gas. Even though you deflected his 4 gate attack, you delayed your lair tech for over 300 gas ( those 12 extra roaches ) which put you in a difficult spot.
If you started the lair after those three roaches ( 8:14 ) instead of after all of them ( 8:48 ) you would have gotten drop tech ready at 11:44. For this late immortal push, which you KNEW that was coming because you didn't see a third in sight after that gateway pressure, your infestors were still in time after delaying the army with your roaches at 13:31. Frankly I find the argument that it wouldn't be possible to reactively get droptech and banelings rediculous in this game. You know the push won't come at 10:30 because he skimps on immortals to do the gateway attack, so you don't even have to go a quick double gas style to execute it.
10 infestors is enough gas for 52 banelings while still having enough gas to take a cheaky spire as extra tech ( although with the mineral expense of the banelings you probably would be able to afford roughly 20 I guess, still more than enough ). And while Infestors only really work to delay pushes or keep stalkers from hitting your broodlords, they don't KILL as fast as banelingdrops do.
In the maticulous way you were playing with your macro and roach force, you simply can't claim you wouldn't be able to transition to baneling drops rather than infestor tech because you were able to delay enough for infestors as is, which take longer to tech to than overlord drop...
I really think you're being too conservative with your builds. Even if you would have just gotten drop and he takes a third afterwards, you can still do 2-ovie ling drops in the main while attacking the natural and third with a roach force. Much less passive than infestor turtle broodlord games, and gives you more controll over the protoss than just letting him have his way until you have an unstoppable broodlord fleet.
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http://drop.sc/224658
Here's another game where this happened.
In this game, the guy goes gate/nexus/forge/cyber. Unfortunately, since I did not open 14/14, he can get away with this. I had 2 really stupid supply blocks at the start from overlords i swore I made, that sucked. I don't think it would have mattered.
The guy does an immortal/sentry all-in from this, i recognize it and go mutas like I usually do. He hits before spire is even done, and I'm just pretty fucked. No idea how I could have won this game, really irritating when I run across people who do something like 3 gate sentry expand, 1 gate nexus core, etc, into immortal/sentry, have no idea how to beat it in that situation because it doesn't work out right, usually because I have to make roaches due to 3 gate sentry pressure or whatever.
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I'll have to agree with Oboeman, start your lair and cancel it if you are really being pressured. Gives you much better timing windows techwise. Had you put it down after you got those 3 roaches, you would have been fine for a baneling drop transition even with the delayed gas. Even though you deflected his 4 gate attack, you delayed your lair tech for over 300 gas ( those 12 extra roaches ) which put you in a difficult spot.
Has anyone ever done this? I've tried this, and you just get screwed - you figure out to cancel the lair and make roaches or speed instead when a bunch of zealots are in your third.
I see, so I could have reactively gone baneling drops in this game. Is that the only answer to beat a late immortal/sentry push like this then? Because no one else, such as the high masters and GMs that have posted, suggested anything to that effect, and I've never seen a pro do anything like that or vod of it or replay of it.
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On July 20 2012 07:36 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
I'll have to agree with Oboeman, start your lair and cancel it if you are really being pressured. Gives you much better timing windows techwise. Had you put it down after you got those 3 roaches, you would have been fine for a baneling drop transition even with the delayed gas. Even though you deflected his 4 gate attack, you delayed your lair tech for over 300 gas ( those 12 extra roaches ) which put you in a difficult spot.
Has anyone ever done this? I've tried this, and you just get screwed - you figure out to cancel the lair and make roaches or speed instead when a bunch of zealots are in your third. I see, so I could have reactively gone baneling drops in this game. Is that the only answer to beat a late immortal/sentry push like this then? Because no one else, such as the high masters and GMs that have posted, suggested anything to that effect, and I've never seen a pro do anything like that or vod of it or replay of it.
I'm sure I've seen some korean zerg cancel his lair when he was getting 7-gated or 8-gated once. I think it was Curious, but I'm not sure and I don't remember the game.
I don't think baneling drops is the only answer. My personal opinion is that drop tech is the 2nd best upgrade in the game after metabolic boost, so it's something i'd probably do, but I'm sure other ways work.
Maybe a faster lair would give you a chance to get mutalisks out. Or your infestors would be out earlier for more energy (you had the gas earlier). Faster roach speed gives you better map control. or maybe burrow. Or it lets you continue your upgrades (if you had started them in the first place). It gives you an overseer to confirm 100% exactly what he was doing if you didn't already know. It gives you options.
Against this guy's super late push, a normal lair time would probably crush him, with either drop or muta or infestor. the 4-gate slowed down your lair way more than it should have.
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I guess the main reason I lost was because I overreacted to the 4 gate +1...
How do you know if it's a 4 gate +1 or a 6/7/8 gate in time? Your lair won't be done (or overseer at least), even with a quicker lair, and you can't tell if Toss is going to warp in or not. You can't exactly just make units as you watch warp-ins occur and respond in a perfect ratio.
I've always just gone roach/ling whether it's 4 gate +1 or 6/7/8 gate, with 6/7/8 gate you crush their push with roach/ling and win, with 4 gate +1, you crush the push and start lair when you are winning and are just ahead (not quite enough to close the game, but close).
DRG had a game where he lost against a 4 gate +1 into immortal/sentry, in this game:
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/66902/?set=5&lang=
Did he lose for not droning enough and overreacting to the 4 gate +1 too?
And was infestors the right call or not? Maybe baneling drops is one answer, but what about infestors?
Maybe if I see someone going robo/sentry like this again I'll go baneling drops... I used to go roach/bane/infestor in ZvP, so maybe now on when I run into this sort of thing, i'll do that.
As for that game where the guy went gate/nexus/forge/core, I definitely don't think baneling drops would have worked in that game ;/
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Instead of making a new post, here's a pathetic game that just happened:
http://drop.sc/225749
The guy opens stargate, I hold it, he tries to do some sentry warp prism thing to block my ramp but he doesnt kill anything, and loses a bunch of zealots, his warp prism, and all his sentries (i assure you, I didn't take damage).
He then sat in his base forever, got a robo. I saw that, but I started infestors because of the stargate. He literally sat in his base for about 8 minutes, I knew exactly what he was doing, and when he started the colossus bay. I started a spire to get corruptors for that, started hive and baneling nest, mass spines, a fourth, just everything - and I made sure not to overdo it with tech because I knew he was 2 base all-in so I didn't need to pump econ, tech, and take the map and then die.
He eventually pushes, I see every move, I let him kill my fourth (god damn ohana), it's whatever, i can just double expand, i'm still ahead, it really doesn't matter.
He then comes to engage, on creep, in the open, and we go at it. I morph a bunch of banes, have spines, my queens, everything, knowing it's an all-in. I snipe out the colossi with my ~10 corruptors, and it all dies, but the sentries, immortals, and stalkers are still alive. I remax but it doesn't matter, everything just dies.
Help. I can't beat people who just sit in their base and mass immortals, sometimes colossi, like that. I only win games by getting hive in time, and when people push 'when they shouldn't' they meet a mass spine wall and infestors and corruptors and I always have hive in time...i don't know, I lose or win sometimes based on hive, whatever.
I just don't even know what composition to go for or anything. i use mutas to beat 2 base colossus, but this guy opened stargate so I went infestors instead and respond to stargate with a quick hive and infestors to get broodlords in time. I know how to deal with VR/Colossus by going mass infestors, but he had a ton of immortals and sentries and stalkers so I couldn't quite do that.
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On July 21 2012 15:43 Belial88 wrote:Instead of making a new post, here's a pathetic game that just happened: http://drop.sc/225696The guy opens stargate, I hold it, he tries to do some sentry warp prism thing to block my ramp but he doesnt kill anything, and loses a bunch of zealots, his warp prism, and all his sentries (i assure you, I didn't take damage). He then sat in his base forever, got a robo. I saw that, but I started infestors because of the stargate. He literally sat in his base for about 8 minutes, I knew exactly what he was doing, and when he started the colossus bay. I started a spire to get corruptors for that, started hive and baneling nest, mass spines, a fourth, just everything - and I made sure not to overdo it with tech because I knew he was 2 base all-in so I didn't need to pump econ, tech, and take the map and then die. He eventually pushes, I see every move, I let him kill my fourth (god damn ohana), it's whatever, i can just double expand, i'm still ahead, it really doesn't matter. He then comes to engage, on creep, in the open, and we go at it. I morph a bunch of banes, have spines, my queens, everything, knowing it's an all-in. I snipe out the colossi with my ~10 corruptors, and it all dies, but the sentries, immortals, and stalkers are still alive. I remax but it doesn't matter, everything just dies. Help. I can't beat people who just sit in their base and mass immortals, sometimes colossi, like that. I only win games by getting hive in time, and when people push 'when they shouldn't' they meet a mass spine wall and infestors and corruptors and I always have hive in time...i don't know, I lose or win sometimes based on hive, whatever. I just don't even know what composition to go for or anything. i use mutas to beat 2 base colossus, but this guy opened stargate so I went infestors instead and respond to stargate with a quick hive and infestors to get broodlords in time. I know how to deal with VR/Colossus by going mass infestors, but he had a ton of immortals and sentries and stalkers so I couldn't quite do that.
Wrong replay.
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On July 21 2012 15:43 Belial88 wrote:Instead of making a new post, here's a pathetic game that just happened: http://drop.sc/225749The guy opens stargate, I hold it, he tries to do some sentry warp prism thing to block my ramp but he doesnt kill anything, and loses a bunch of zealots, his warp prism, and all his sentries (i assure you, I didn't take damage). He then sat in his base forever, got a robo. I saw that, but I started infestors because of the stargate. He literally sat in his base for about 8 minutes, I knew exactly what he was doing, and when he started the colossus bay. I started a spire to get corruptors for that, started hive and baneling nest, mass spines, a fourth, just everything - and I made sure not to overdo it with tech because I knew he was 2 base all-in so I didn't need to pump econ, tech, and take the map and then die. He eventually pushes, I see every move, I let him kill my fourth (god damn ohana), it's whatever, i can just double expand, i'm still ahead, it really doesn't matter. He then comes to engage, on creep, in the open, and we go at it. I morph a bunch of banes, have spines, my queens, everything, knowing it's an all-in. I snipe out the colossi with my ~10 corruptors, and it all dies, but the sentries, immortals, and stalkers are still alive. I remax but it doesn't matter, everything just dies. Help. I can't beat people who just sit in their base and mass immortals, sometimes colossi, like that. I only win games by getting hive in time, and when people push 'when they shouldn't' they meet a mass spine wall and infestors and corruptors and I always have hive in time...i don't know, I lose or win sometimes based on hive, whatever. I just don't even know what composition to go for or anything. i use mutas to beat 2 base colossus, but this guy opened stargate so I went infestors instead and respond to stargate with a quick hive and infestors to get broodlords in time. I know how to deal with VR/Colossus by going mass infestors, but he had a ton of immortals and sentries and stalkers so I couldn't quite do that.
I'm not a Zerg, I'm a Protoss.. but there are definitely two things that I see fundamentally wrong in that replay..
First, your macro. I kind of understand your logic, "he going to push so I shouldn't overdrone", but I think past a certain point this shouldn't apply anymore. We're at 15', there has been no engagement so far, and you still haven't found a small timing to go past 55 drones ?
I think your composition and army were quite good. But you messed up the major engagement at 18'18 exactly. "Engaging in the open" ? That's not what I see. I see you engaging in a choke, with 3/4 of your army unable to advance due to poor positionning. I see bannelings behind roaches, and unable to pass. I see a lot of infestors snipped for nothing, no more than a couple fungals, no infested terrans, and an army that has 0/0 upgrades ( the protoss wasn't that good either, just 1/1.. but that's still better ).
So yeah, it all comes down to you messing up the engagement. You have to learn how to flank and position your units better and you'll roll over this kind of Protoss army.
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Sup Belial.
I'm GM on SEA zerg, 1000 pt masters NA.
I've started going ling bane every Z v P. Just sick of forcefields and immortal sentry all ins.
You say you can't get drops out by 10:30 when a well timed sentry immortal push comes in. However, I disagree.
Often he'll take early gas, in which case you lair first - drops will be out. Otherwise, I am now almost invariably going lair first anyway becuase I can hold 4 gate anyway with pure ling and a spine or two.
I agree with you that toss on two base is kind of ridiculous. You can hold an all-in with roach ling and then they come at you again showing that the all-in wasn't an all-in after all.
Ling bling drops solves this entirely. Once you crush his blind sentry immortal all in (lol), you make sure you're properly saturated on 3 base with 4 gas, mass lings and blings and drop on his army or in his main.
Goodbye to two base toss turtling.
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On July 21 2012 15:43 Belial88 wrote:Instead of making a new post, here's a pathetic game that just happened: http://drop.sc/225749The guy opens stargate, I hold it, he tries to do some sentry warp prism thing to block my ramp but he doesnt kill anything, and loses a bunch of zealots, his warp prism, and all his sentries (i assure you, I didn't take damage). He then sat in his base forever, got a robo. I saw that, but I started infestors because of the stargate. He literally sat in his base for about 8 minutes, I knew exactly what he was doing, and when he started the colossus bay. I started a spire to get corruptors for that, started hive and baneling nest, mass spines, a fourth, just everything - and I made sure not to overdo it with tech because I knew he was 2 base all-in so I didn't need to pump econ, tech, and take the map and then die. He eventually pushes, I see every move, I let him kill my fourth (god damn ohana), it's whatever, i can just double expand, i'm still ahead, it really doesn't matter. He then comes to engage, on creep, in the open, and we go at it. I morph a bunch of banes, have spines, my queens, everything, knowing it's an all-in. I snipe out the colossi with my ~10 corruptors, and it all dies, but the sentries, immortals, and stalkers are still alive. I remax but it doesn't matter, everything just dies. Help. I can't beat people who just sit in their base and mass immortals, sometimes colossi, like that. I only win games by getting hive in time, and when people push 'when they shouldn't' they meet a mass spine wall and infestors and corruptors and I always have hive in time...i don't know, I lose or win sometimes based on hive, whatever. I just don't even know what composition to go for or anything. i use mutas to beat 2 base colossus, but this guy opened stargate so I went infestors instead and respond to stargate with a quick hive and infestors to get broodlords in time. I know how to deal with VR/Colossus by going mass infestors, but he had a ton of immortals and sentries and stalkers so I couldn't quite do that.
Suprisingly, one of the best solutions to 'weird' or 'bad play' is just to go kill him. A big drop play (Symbol-style) would've killed him. We all know 200/200 P armys are scary, that's why you have to pressure them, even on two base, if they turtle for so long.
It would work since: 1) if he moves out before he's maxed he would get crushed. 2) he has to turtle up to 200/200 because he's on twobase and the only thing that will win him the game is a giant push that will come much much later than usual. 3) If he doesn't touch you the entire game, you can do whatever you want and do it FASTER.
Mutas would've worked as well I think.
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Alright so in that particular game you were really ahead after that gateway-warpprism-single voidray all in. Infact, you had that game hands down. While personally I would have gone for a large mutalisk flock and baneling drops instead, your transition worked out well. The only thing macrowise that I would look at is getting drones rather than the 7 infestors after you hold the attack. You had 55 for quite a while.
But please get drops T_T...
You had 12 infestors that hardly did anything in the fight. Sacrifice two of those and you have baneling drops instead of ground-banes in that final fight, you would have absolutely TORE that army apart. I hate to be the person that keeps saying 'ermagerd burneleng derps' but you keep ending up with the absolute perfect positions to get the drop upgrade, yet you don't. In that last game you even HAD the banelings...
I can lay out the main logic for them against a 2 base push. Protoss is tied on gas and can't reinforce a second all in well enough, fact. Banelings trade armies really effectively. And even if you don't break the push completely on the first go, your reinforcements will be able to overwhelm him and regain complete map control. Infestors really don't have the same trading effect because it takes a lot longer for the damage to take effect, and often some units will slip through and you'll have to lay 'oh crap fungal those 3 stalkers' and move your infestors back, which will delay your first chain-fungal and might break the units free.
On the tied for gas part. Protoss can't support anything else than 2 robos collosi on two bases. He can't get a large phoenix fleet AND have sizable sentry army. He can't have a large immortal force and a big phoenix force. A phoenix is 100 gas, so is a sentry. If he gets a large phoenix force, fine, your baneling drops won't have a lot of effect, no matter, you'll crush through his groundforce ezpz because he lacks sentries anyway. He gets a lot of immortal sentry? Also fine, baneling drops choke him out. You force the protoss to make choices about his limited gas, and he can't meet in the middle because he is so starved.
You're a good player, vastly superior to me in macro for sure. But your reluctancy to make an army that is effective at trading rather than one that is amazing in the super lategame ( which won't happen, come on, 2 base all in ) in these situations is really giving you losses that just shouldn't happen. Just try it, atleast like 5 games.
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1k+ NA masters Z.
I lose to the same stupid shit. Especially that guy on Ohana, I think I played him and lost just the same.
I watched the Ohana and Daybreak game, I would say that your strategies and timings are far superior than your opponents and you did have both games won. The reason you lost those is because you consistently botch the infestor controls. Just look at all the engagements in slowmo and you would see how much better it should have gone for you.
The Ohana game they basically got targeted down by colo fires like meat to the grinder. You only had a couple fungals, not even enough to break the shields. Yes you had too many roaches in the engagement after because you got rid of all his colos and all he has left is immortals. Should've reload with more lings, I think that's what people meant when they said you have too much roaches. Lings are fairly useless with 4 colos on the field.
The Daybreak game first engagement you just randomly threw down infested terran eggs, like wtf man, if you keep throwing fungals you would've raped his army right there. Instead he just runs away and come back later.
If I'm you I'd just tune out those people talking about how you should have more drones blah blah. Ya, maybe, but that's not why you lose. You might've over reacted a little to the +1 4 gate but wait til you think to yourself after consciously made less roaches then the guy just instantly chrono all the gates, throws down 3 more and punish your ass for it. But I'm not you.
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I will be talking about the latest replay posted here. Macro-wise, you were only up by about 8-10 drones over your opponent. Sure, you had 6 extra workers on gas, but at the final engagement you were sitting on almost 1k gas and not enough minerals to reinforce. Do you see why having that extra 6 workers wasn't so important if you couldnt even use the resources they gathered? So you had a 2-4 worker advantage on minerals. That's going to put you on fairly even or arguably disadvantaged ground in ZvP. It's pretty important to keep in mind that when reinforcing it is often wise to reinforce with lings which require no gas and perform extremely well against immortals once FF and Colossus have been removed from his army.
That aside, there are two issues of army control which contributed greatly to this loss.
First, there is Infestor control. This was touched on by an earlier poster, so I won't go into detail, but there is a great amount of potential in those Infestors and it appeared they were not wisely used.
Second, there is army positioning. You fought him from one side and through a choke into a superior concave. A flank is vital to a Zerg army, and it was not present here. Take half or a third of your army, or even a group of lings, and move them around so they can engage from BEHIND when your main force attacks from the front.
This is what happened:
---you---> <---him---
A proper flank looks like this:
---you---> <---him---> <---you---
You create more surface area, so more of your units are attacking at once. His "safe" units in the back (immortal/colossus) are not safe. And he has to use twice as many FF as he would otherwise, if he even has that many. The way it was executed in the replay will usually lose. A proper flank will usually win.
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Just to add on to the "get drops" suggestions... get drops.
It's one of the first things I do when I see that a toss player isn't pushing out of his base before 10 minutes. I don't rely on it to defend the standard timing of the immortal sentry all-in, but I get it as quickly as possible once I feel safe.
Here's what drops gives you:
- a great way to trade away useless supply when you are changing your max. Roaches and lings in his main and natural is more effective than walking them into his army and letting them die.
- baneling drops if necessary
- a counterattack that does not get stopped by a wall
We have all been told time and time again to try to slow down a protoss push by threatening a counterattack. What if they seal off their wall, build 2 more cannons and leave a sentry behind? It doesn't slow them down. When a guy sits on 2 base for longer than usual, it gives you time to get drops, which means as soon as he steps outside of his base you can drop 75 zerglings in his main, and he HAS to turn around (or lose). In fact he loses either way.
When I upgrade drops it becomes a defensive upgrade in that I try to be as greedy as possible behind it. I had a strange game where a protoss player chose to max out on immortal/stalker/sentry on 2 base. I had lings in position to counterattack, started infestor tech and drop tech, but when I saw he wasn't moving out I double expanded to bases 4 and 5, made 75 drones. Then he moved out, in my moment of weakness, before my investments had kicked in. But I had a ton of lings and overlords just waiting, I drop them moments after he steps out of his base, and he turns around. And that gives me time to reap the rewards of my insane economy, mass spinecrawlers, and get a ridiculous infestor count. I sac one of my bases, but I hold my 4th. Even if I had to sac my 4th I would have been ahead, but because I could hold the 4th, the game was as good as over.
This is the game I'm talking about:
http://drop.sc/190265
Even against a 3 base toss, a ling drop in the main is now one of my standard responses to the big 3 base max push that is intended to hit before broodlords. 9 times out of 10 I kill the main nexus and a bunch of pylons and gateways in the main, sac one of my bases, and then hold off his push, still maintaining an economic lead. Baneling drops are great against that push too.
Drops are really good.
Anyway more specific to your last game (and a lot of the other games you post, there are some trends), you don't upgrade very much, you tend to lose your infestors before spending their energy, and you don't spend your minerals. It's great to see all the replays because it shows overall weaknesses that you can focus on improving, instead of brushing things away as an isolated incident.
For much of that game, you were 4 drones short on your 3 bases (12 mineral drones) and you were still floating 1k+ for an extended period of time. This means that you could have made 20 drones with that money, without hurting your tech or army size, to round out your 3 bases and have more mineral drones at the 4th base, and that is basically free money. You had the larva for it as well, at certain points in time. If you had spent it all and droned up you'd get more larva back overall because you were basically losing every auto-spawned larva.
Turn the minerals into drones, then turn the drones into spinecrawlers, then turn the minerals into drones again. When you are mining on 4 base and slowly teching, all you have to do is not die, so just keep turning minerals into drones and spines and gas into tech.
or drop him as soon as he moves out to put him 100% all-in.
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I lost the infestors because I tried to NP all his colossus. I guess that was a bad idea? I don't know what potential I could have done with 12 infestors I guess... I try to spam IT but with these 2 base pushes it never really works out that way because they just don't have that energy bank yet. Maybe I should stop making infestors?
I'm a bit confused on the advice I'm given here. So I basically lost because I didn't have drop tech? Even if i had drop tech, what am I supposed to do again? Get baneling rain, or am I supposed to just drop roach/ling? I'm kind of confused, I'm hearing 4 different things about drops, and all I'm getting is I lost because I got drops... Okay, so drops are the choice if the opponent does some sort of 2 base weird all-in. I'm still a bit confused on it though.
I don't believe in upgrades that much in ZvP, in early-mid game. i go for double evo once I start hive/4th for melee/carapace though. Just a personal choice.
I'll try to flank more though.
I'm still confused on what... like I should be trying to even do. Do I get banelings, spines, infestors. Was making corruptors a good idea? Yes? No?
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On July 22 2012 07:26 Belial88 wrote:
I'm still confused on what... like I should be trying to even do. Do I get banelings, spines, infestors. Was making corruptors a good idea? Yes? No?
Maybe you should stop listening to all these people giving you poor advice. I said pretty clearly that it wasn't a composition issue -- you just didn't have enough drones to have enough shit because you don't know how to drone properly.
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^ So I should not have teched so hard?
In this most recent game on Ohana (stargate into warp prism ramp block fail into lots of immortals, then colossus mass 2 base attack), I avoided droning specifically because of what i saw the opponent doing. Do you think straight up roach/ling with more drones would have been a better choice? I specifically stopped droning, and at the end I was maxed so i had plenty of shit.... i dont know if a remax would have worked (many horrible games a year ago with roach/hydra and roach/ling being washed upon 2 base colossus deathballs...).
I think I also had a recent spate of games where overdroning caused me a lot of stupid losses (cannon rush into dt into mass stalkers, x3, same guy), so that may have played a factor there too.
I suppose if I droned more, I would have been more conscious to get upgrades... say i avoid the infestors and any tech, it'd be me with 70 drones on 4 base with roach/ling on 1/1, with a remax. I don't know if that would work.
I'm pretty low in masters at the moment (despite 800+ points, which would be top 8 in most divisions, looking at my mmr i'm not even in the halfway point between the GM line and masters line). I just felt like I had total control of that game, and I knew I had a large, although limited, amount of time to just get whatever I wanted. I specifically avoided droning, and went with lots of tech and a max.
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On July 22 2012 07:26 Belial88 wrote:
I lost the infestors because I tried to NP all his colossus. I guess that was a bad idea? I don't know what potential I could have done with 12 infestors I guess... I try to spam IT but with these 2 base pushes it never really works out that way because they just don't have that energy bank yet. Maybe I should stop making infestors?
I'm a bit confused on the advice I'm given here. So I basically lost because I didn't have drop tech? Even if i had drop tech, what am I supposed to do again? Get baneling rain, or am I supposed to just drop roach/ling? I'm kind of confused, I'm hearing 4 different things about drops, and all I'm getting is I lost because I got drops... Okay, so drops are the choice if the opponent does some sort of 2 base weird all-in. I'm still a bit confused on it though.
I don't believe in upgrades that much in ZvP, in early-mid game. i go for double evo once I start hive/4th for melee/carapace though. Just a personal choice.
I'll try to flank more though.
I'm still confused on what... like I should be trying to even do. Do I get banelings, spines, infestors. Was making corruptors a good idea? Yes? No?
Sup Belial again. I didn't watch the replay (TT) but just chiming in to assist with understanding drop play.
Many times I face toss who do a failed 4gate and follow up by turtling a bit in their base and either pushing out, or taking a delayed third, and then pushing at near max.
It's damn scary indeed, and particulary because hive tech really won't be behind, and you can't push up his ramp.
However, to be sure, there are plenty of ways to beat 2 base turtly shit that toss do. I have beated it by spining up and waiting for his push wtih infestor ling, or just generally going infestor ling roach, or by getting spire for potential collosi.
However I just don't believe that this is the 'optimal' or theortically correct way to deal with this situation.
Like, the 'one you're ahead get more ahead' applies in many situations but not this one. Because of the power of a delayed toss push, you want to push your advantage then and there.
There are only two things stopping you from doing that - forcefields and the map terrain. Both are overcome with drops.
Mind you, if you're caught off gaurd some how, drops will help you immensely against high masters forcefields.
THus, I believe if you hold some silly 4 gate pressure and he just sits there, you should simply ensure you have around 70 drones, with 4 gas, and 4 hatch, and mass units.
As for what you should actually drop, although I like bane rain, I have found much success dropping ANYTHING! Once you have that lead you simply need to get on top of his army. I have actually found GREAT success dropping bane/roach/ling. The banes deal some splash, the lings have sick DPS when you get them close, and the roaches have lastability. It's deadly.
As for where to drop your army - depends on a few things I guess but experiment and see. I like to doom drop his main and keep like 3 overlords near his natural ramp. When he moves up the ramp to get to your army you bane drop him on the ramp - so epic.
Finally, I note that sometimes I do the 'get everything' approach because I'm scared - I get spire, double ups, infestation, spines, some spores, overseers. I believe this is not the correct approach. You will actually spend too much in drones and cash getting everything and it will blunt your attack.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
