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http://drop.sc/225979
Here's yet another game that this just happened in.
I tried to do drops. I did a terible miscontrol, and it was horrible.
I specifically droned up very hard after holding the pressure. He did some sort of 6 gate void ray allin and i held and killed all of the stalkers and denied the third and everything. He then went double robo immortal mass. I lose everything trying to do the drop. I dont know why you guys insisted I do drops, that was not very helpful advice (as cecil pointed out).
Probably lost trying to follow the drop advice (he kept moving his damn army around). I dont know if I would have won if I didn't do that, he had a ton of immortals that would have made sure any sort of roach remax would have died anyways.
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As for the droning issue, if you're on 3 base and you hold early pressure, you should ALWAYS then saturate your bases properly...
There is no reason to spam units on say 55 drones so that you have a bigger max by 15 supply than droning to 70 and then making units. As you no doubt know, you'll hit max with 15 less supply, but be banking ungodly amounts of money while toss gets further behind. At 55 drones you're basically remaining only on par with two-base toss.
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You tried to drop roach/ling directly on his army, and you made two complete passes without unloading any units, gifting 5000 resources for a zealot. In one sentence you acknowledge a horrible miscontrol, but in the next sentence you try to use that to claim that drops are useless.
Here's what drops gives you:
- a great way to trade away useless supply when you are changing your max. Roaches and lings in his main and natural is more effective than walking them into his army and letting them die.
- baneling drops if necessary
- a counterattack that does not get stopped by a wall
We have all been told time and time again to try to slow down a protoss push by threatening a counterattack. What if they seal off their wall, build 2 more cannons and leave a sentry behind? It doesn't slow them down. When a guy sits on 2 base for longer than usual, it gives you time to get drops, which means as soon as he steps outside of his base you can drop 75 zerglings in his main, and he HAS to turn around (or lose). In fact he loses either way.
I don't play around much with dropping units directly on his army (except for banelings). I wait for him to leave his base and drop a handful of units (more than can be handled by a single warp-in) in his main. I either turn him around or take away his ability to reinforce. If he turns around I use the extra time to get more infestors, more spines, more energy, more larva, etc.
But drops aren't necessary. What you did this game with your drones and minerals was much better than the other games. By getting the drone count up while teching and making the spines, you could probably hold most monster two base pushes with spine + infestor, since you had many more spines this game than Ohana, and also had a bigger economy and better upgrades, making your remax much more powerful.
Even after throwing away all of the roach ling, had you saved your infestors and fungalled him at your spines, you still would have held him off easily.
and you still died with money in the bank.
these are things you can find by watching the replay, not necessarily things you need us to tell you.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 22 2012 09:55 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 07:26 Belial88 wrote:
I'm still confused on what... like I should be trying to even do. Do I get banelings, spines, infestors. Was making corruptors a good idea? Yes? No? Maybe you should stop listening to all these people giving you poor advice. I said pretty clearly that it wasn't a composition issue -- you just didn't have enough drones to have enough shit because you don't know how to drone properly.
There isn't a discussion on this topic, so I'll put it here. Above advice is good; can't stress this enough, the way to beat this all-in isn't with composition. Everything can beat it, but the problem is you have to do everything almost perfectly to fend it off and it's easier to execute than it is to defend. It's similar to P vs 1-1-1 or P vs stephano style roaches in this way.
Generally things like:
- Stopping drones within 2 of the correct number-I believe this number is closer to 58 than 60-62, like most people done.
- Good macro-probably by far biggest problem. Even some GM Zergs even have about 30 less supply than they could have at the 10:30 mark.
- Correct creep spreading depending on this map. For example, spreading from 3rd on daybreak and spreading to connect natural and third on antiga.
- Good flanks. You'll never win if you attack from one angle-attack from a minimum of two.
- Also, versus a super standard non-late all-in, there's a timing where Toss only has 2-3 immortals plus 8 sentries at around 9:30. You can abuse this timing by trading a few units for sentries, and sentry energy. This goes along with stopping drones closer to 58 than 60+. Your units aren't more valuable as time goes on while sentries are.
In short, I recommend practicing this kind of stuff rather than giving up and changing styles completely like ling/bling or fast mutas. This will get your mechanics and your first 10 minutes of the game much better, which will help with your game by miles. That is, unless you really want to play a new style; just don't change styles because of this one all-in.
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On July 22 2012 11:00 Belial88 wrote:http://drop.sc/225979Here's yet another game that this just happened in. I tried to do drops. I did a terible miscontrol, and it was horrible. I specifically droned up very hard after holding the pressure. He did some sort of 6 gate void ray allin and i held and killed all of the stalkers and denied the third and everything. He then went double robo immortal mass. I lose everything trying to do the drop. I dont know why you guys insisted I do drops, that was not very helpful advice (as cecil pointed out). Probably lost trying to follow the drop advice (he kept moving his damn army around). I dont know if I would have won if I didn't do that, he had a ton of immortals that would have made sure any sort of roach remax would have died anyways.
Come on man, this is a terrible example. That was the worst drop control I've ever seen in my life, ever.
Before hating on the style, practice it. You had drops at lik 17 min, if you had it earlier, you'd be dropping his main earlier. Also, you should be mixing blings in at that point. It's easy and you have the money. Well executed, that army would have evaporated.
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^ Yea everything went wrong there. I had to FG, but that brought infestors into fire. I noticed my supply plummet so I focused my control on just remaxing because I already saw this wasn't going to work. I tried to control the drop and the guy simply walked around it in the open and realized how much of a fail this was, especially without having something like a bunch of lings already out to prevent that.
I think just that going drops was is not the answer at all. I used to go roach/banelingrain/infestor in every zvp for better part of a year, for a very long time, so I know how to control it, but as soon as that engagement started I knew that it wasn't going to work out, and that my best chance for winning the game from that moment was to just remax again.
I realyl don't think that his 'army would have been evaporated' with better control. I've done roach/bane for a long time, i know what it can take on, and his 6+ immortal can definitely handles banelings and dropped roaches pretty damn well.
I'm just going to follow cecil's advice on it, and that drops aren't the answer.
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On July 22 2012 12:10 Belial88 wrote:
^ Yea everything went wrong there. I had to FG, but that brought infestors into fire. I noticed my supply plummet so I focused my control on just remaxing because I already saw this wasn't going to work. I tried to control the drop and the guy simply walked around it in the open and realized how much of a fail this was, especially without having something like a bunch of lings already out to prevent that.
I think just that going drops was is not the answer at all. I used to go roach/banelingrain/infestor in every zvp for better part of a year, for a very long time, so I know how to control it, but as soon as that engagement started I knew that it wasn't going to work out, and that my best chance for winning the game from that moment was to just remax again.
I realyl don't think that his 'army would have been evaporated' with better control. I've done roach/bane for a long time, i know what it can take on, and his 6+ immortal can definitely handles banelings and dropped roaches pretty damn well.
I'm just going to follow cecil's advice on it, and that drops aren't the answer.
Lol, I've heard people talk about you on the chat channels and have also chatted to GM level zergs (about ling/infestor in ZvZ) and your name comes up. They all regard you as a pure theorycrafter with poor mechanics and I can now see why.
Honestly, this is just such a poor attitude and approach to the problem. On paper drops are a great solution, and many good zergs have told you that it is. You post a replay which is an utterly horrendous example of drops, and then proceed to proclaim that drops are not the answer.
I could theorycraft right back at you and say that you invested in too many tech paths - infestors, spines (think 2000/2000 more units in drops - or earlier) or I could simply point out the fact that that was the most horrendous engagement I've ever seen.
However, I won't stoop to that level. I'll go and ladder now, and hopefully I'll come across stupid toss (no doubt I will) and I'll post some replays of failed 2 base pushes into dealyed 2 pushes, where I go drops. It should show you that it is a great, effective, and conceptually sound solution to your problem.
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^ I actually intentionally stopped micro'ing the drop, because I 'knew' it would fail (keyword 'knew' as in my opinion). If you watch the production tab or my POV, you'll actually see as soon as that battle started in the open, I abandoned micro'ing in favor of just remaxing. I felt my only chance to win when that moment occured, was to remax.
I did roach/banelingrain/infestor for a better part of a year in every ZvP, so I think I have a good grasp on what drops can take on, and how to execute it. I intentionally abandoned control because I felt the battle was going to be a disaster even if I controlled perfectly, so I dedicated my control to macro'ing up a replacement army.
But even with perfect control, I don't think that engagement would have gone in my favor. It was in the open, as opposed to where you usually drop (in chokes, by their base, against a wall), so he simply dodged my overlords, and anytime I tried to FG, my infestors fell rapidly under fire. Maybe if I had only the roaches loaded, and lings on the ground to keep him down a bit, but I think that would have just been maybe better, but not a good engagement still.
If you would upload some reps where you take on 7+ immortals with drops, please, I'd love to see it, but I don't think drops would have worked in that occassion. I went drops specifically in that game because of the advice given here, and I also specifically droned up very hard, per Cecil's advice.
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On July 22 2012 13:36 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Lol, I've heard people talk about you on the chat channels and have also chatted to GM level zergs (about ling/infestor in ZvZ) and your name comes up. They all regard you as a pure theorycrafter with poor mechanics and I can now see why. My rank is no secret, ... snip
You don't need to respond to posts like this 
I reported it, but nobody cleaned it up in time.
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you were super low drone and couldn't remax when he pushed. also, you probably needed more spines, but thats debatable.
also, too many roaches i think. ling/infestor/corruptor with maybe ~10 roaches should do pretty well vs that.
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Problem is, you are the instigator, the person being inflammatory. If it isn't obvious, I can spell it out for you.
On July 22 2012 12:10 Belial88 wrote:
I've done roach/bane for a long time, i know what it can take on, and his 6+ immortal can definitely handles banelings and dropped roaches pretty damn well.
If you profess to know what it can take on, please post a replay of you executing the drop style correctly with more lings and banes, and without infestors, and 10 spines behind. That would be on point.
On July 22 2012 12:10 Belial88 wrote:
I'm just going to follow cecil's advice on it, and that drops aren't the answer.
You state that 'drops aren't the answer, when many people have said that they work, and you have not shown them not to be the answer, and that, contrary to your later statement, they are often used in pro play.
On July 22 2012 13:36 Belial88 wrote:
My rank is no secret, I link my sc2ranks profile on all of my guides. I don't know why anyone would regard me as a theorycrafter, I don't present any sort of strategy that is different from standard, and everything I say is more on what I view as standard in play (ie everyone goes 3rd before hatch zvp in macro game) as opposed to trying to present something new (here's this hydra timing i use to crush everyone). I'm glad you find enjoyment that a low masters is low.
I never referred to your rank, and I do not find enjoyment in your rank. I do not think you are low masters, and if you are, I did not know that. The point is that you 'theorycraft' insofar that you blatantly label drops as 'not the answer' although you have not given it a chance, much less in a way the executed correctly.
On July 22 2012 13:36 Belial88 wrote:
Similarly level zergs (actually most of them are lower level than me) have stated to use drops. A GM posted in here that that was bad advice. What's theorycrafting, is the idea of using bane drops to stop immortal/sentry all-ins when it's never done in pro play.
It is so frequently, that 'never done in pro play' is both inflammatory and wrong. Please watch Dimaga play if you would like. Drops, more generally are used (without banes) on more ocassions that I can recount. It is a standard style for Idra, for example. I believe I saw Symbol or some GSL zerg using it repeatedly against, I think, Oz or PartinG lately, and crushing him. I cannot recall what game it was but I think it was RO16 this season (Code S).
On July 22 2012 13:36 Belial88 wrote:Yes, I post a horrendous example of drops - something I stated in the replay. You can watch the replay, and I think it's pretty clear even with better control, the drops would not have worked. I specifically abandoned control of the drops as well, to go back to macro (if you pull up the production tab or first person view, you'll see I stop micro'ing the drops and instead remax). If you want to tell me that if the drops were controlled better or executed in a different manner and then I would have won, please, do so. But I knew right away that the drops were a fail, which is why I gave up control on them.
Well, I disagree that you should ever stop controlling your army mid-fight. I used to do that, but I remax just a few seconds later. His wave will hit closer to my hatches but I think the trade off is worth it. But that is quite besides the point. THe point is that there is no point posting the replay you did. It is not a good example to prove or disprove a point, and so it is unconstructive.
On July 22 2012 13:36 Belial88 wrote:Please, show me drops working against 6+ immortals. That's what I've been asking this entire time.
Perhaps I will. I somewhat cannot be bothered with this thread, but on the chance I got some ladder toss doing that, I will post it.
On July 22 2012 13:36 Belial88 wrote:Also, you don't need to be an asshole. I don't know what relevance it is to bring up that you have 'friends' who don't like me. Everyone has haters, and everyone has bad games. I'm confused on what to do, so I'm asking for help. I've never claimed to be good at this game, and many times I've talked about how low level I am. I don't know what you are trying to get it. Kind of irritating. Please, post replays of how much better you are than me. Just so much as I get an answer to this.
I don't have friends that don't like you. I don't even have friends in sc2. You don't have haters either. THe point is that if you are asking for help, and people go out of their way to respond to you in a thread that you specifically created for yourself (because the help me thread was not good enough), then it is rude and insulting to post a replay that showcases nothing, and then proclaim that 'it is not the answer'. That is why I had a jab at you, saying that you're a theorycrafter.
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If you profess to know what it can take on, please post a replay of you executing the drop style correctly with more lings and banes, and without infestors, and 10 spines behind. That would be on point.
I stopped going roach/bane/infestor because it's simply inferior to mutas, standard roach max, and mass spine/infestor/fast hive styles of play. It's a semi-all-innish play, quite frankly, and just a more advanced version of 'using roach aggression to end the game and make up for the late tech'. it's a great form of aggression, but I think quicker, standard roach/ling is better, or just a quick hive.
You state that 'drops aren't the answer, when many people have said that they work, and you have not shown them not to be the answer, and that, contrary to your later statement, they are often used in pro play.
I have never seen them used in pro play. I've also never really seen a pro protoss sit his ass in his base, and mass immortals, sometimes colossi. They always do timings, which I can handle just fine. It's this 'just mass shit on 2 base with immortals" that I have trouble with. I also had trouble with VR/Colossus back in the day.
The one time I've seen a toss do this sort of thing, is DRG vs Squirtle in the GSL on Daybreak. DRG holds a 4 gate +1 perfectly, like I did (he made as many units as I did, i compared, but maybe thats' why he lost too), and Squirtle falls back on just massing immortals and sentries. DRG makes some drones, and maxes out on roach/ling. He splits his roaches in two, does a flank, and pokes multiple times to draw out FF in the open.
He gets stomped.
I've also noticed that in general, Zergs at gom very rarely hold the sentry/immortal all-in. The only cases are:
1. Leenock, he loses his third but toss overcommits (imo toss made a huge mistake) and loses his entire army in a bad trade by backing into a corner and terrible overspending ff that in that engagement when the hatch popped and broodlings were there, he died.
2. Some toss on cloud literally forgets 2 of his 3 immortals, and also lets his sentries get surrounded when not paying attention.
3. Nestea's muta style, which is what I do. I think this is one of 2 times it's been held where Toss didn't make huge blunders
4. Hyun on mulgenheim whatever map. He does nestea's base trade style of mass spines in nat, sac third, base trade, but with roach/ling instead of muta.
5. Some zerg, i think curious or someone like that, loses his third, toss is over-aggressive and instead of backing off, when he easily could have, he tries to run into the main when he's out of FF and dies. He did the immortal/sentry just fine, was in a complete lead, but killed himself by committing instead of backing off.
Every other time, zergs have lost.
But I dont have a problem with 10:30 immortal/sentry all-in, since I go mutas. The problem is the 17:00 mass immortal 2 base mass stuff.
I never referred to your rank, and I do not find enjoyment in your rank. I do not think you are low masters, and if you are, I did not know that. The point is that you 'theorycraft' insofar that you blatantly label drops as 'not the answer' although you have not given it a chance, much less in a way the executed correctly.
No i did not. That's exactly why I tried to make drops work in this game...
I say drops are not the answer against a 10:30 immortal/sentry all-in. This is because stephano's build of 7:15 lair from 2xgas at 6:00 will have drops finished, at earliest, at 10:45, 15 seconds after toss is in your third, in a choke point, killing your base. You can't possibly have drops in time, even with such a fast lair, as the standard these days is actually much later than 7:15 lair, and more like 7:30+ lairs. DRG, and most zergs now, go for 3xgas at 6:30+, or a later 2xgas, et cetera. So it doesn't make sense that you'd say "go drops" when drops can't even be out in time for immortal/sentry.
Now, a few people have said "okay, of course, you are right, but get drops when you see toss is just going to sit his ass in his base and derp derp". Well, maybe that works, I don't know. I tried it, and I knew before the engagement occurred that it simply would not have worked. If you want to argue that I could have won with better control in the game, I can buy that. If you post a replay of using drops to beat 7+ immortals, I would believe it then too.
But so far, I have never seen a pro use drops to beat 2 base immortal/sentry all-in (because you cant have it out in time, duh..), and I've never seen a pro use drops to hold any sort of mass immortal derping, although, as I said before, at the pro level you generally don't run into toss who just sit in their base for 17 minutes and mass immoratls. Probably because the zergs, and toss', at that level, are much better than what I am and whom I face, and would beat it soundly, but I just have never seen it happen so I dont know exactly how pro zergs would beat it soundly.
There is no theorycrafting going on here... maybe it's happened in pro play, but it's never happened at GOM, because I follow every zvp at gom. I've seen roach drop aggression used against robo expands. But I've never seen a toss at GOM just mass double robo immortals until 17:00 in the GSL. Please, enlighten me if this is Hero's build that these guys I run into on ladder are copying.
Well, I disagree that you should ever stop controlling your army mid-fight. I used to do that, but I remax just a few seconds later. His wave will hit closer to my hatches but I think the trade off is worth it. But that is quite besides the point. THe point is that there is no point posting the replay you did. It is not a good example to prove or disprove a point, and so it is unconstructive.
K, well I disagree with you. Shall we duel?
I think there is plenty of point posting that replay. How could I have won the game? The drops would not have taken that army on. I was literally confused as hell.
You can even see it in the chat. Before that drop engagement even occured, I asked the guy
"Why are you still in this game, not to be BM".
That gives you a little insight to my mentality. What I was saying, basically, was if the opponent honestly think he could still win the game from the position he was in. I think he replied that he couldn't or something, now sure, but I was thinking that there was no decision I could make from that point onward, to end this game in a win. I knew then and there, that this toss was going double robo immortal, and that I would lose the game.
And oh look, exactly as I was thinking it, I lost the game. I went drops just because I had nothing to lose, because I felt, in my mind, i had no possible way to win the game, even though I'm sure the opponent felt the same way.
I don't have friends that don't like you. I don't even have friends in sc2. You don't have haters either. THe point is that if you are asking for help, and people go out of their way to respond to you in a thread that you specifically created for yourself (because the help me thread was not good enough), then it is rude and insulting to post a replay that showcases nothing, and then proclaim that 'it is not the answer'. That is why I had a jab at you, saying that you're a theorycrafter.
There's no theorycrafting going on. Drops clearly would not have won against that army of 7+ immortals.
Maybe you think it's a bad replay, but I could tell before the engagement occurred that I was not going to win it. That's why I abandoned control. If you can show me otherwise, please, I'd love to see so, but I don't think that roach drops will win against such a large army.
As far as I see it, you are the one theorycrafting by saying "Drops! Drops! Drops!". There's a GM in here even saying that that's poor advice. He's probably theorycrafting too. You should report him.
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you were super low drone and couldn't remax when he pushed. also, you probably needed more spines, but thats debatable.
also, too many roaches i think. ling/infestor/corruptor with maybe ~10 roaches should do pretty well vs that.
Really?
So I guess a recurring theme in my games is too many roaches. Hm. I'm going to check out some reps of Stephano doing his roach max to see what his ratio is, but okay, I'll go more with lings now on. I think maybe you are right, less roaches, a lot more infestors, more spines.
It's just that awkward spot where I don't think I can go hive, broodlords, because he's obviously 2 base all-inning before broodlords. But maybe what I could do, is make a shitton of infestors now on, and like 20+ spines instead of just like 10+, and sit my ass hard on 4 base and just turtle up a broodlord army, despite the opponent doing a 2 base all-in.
I like the sound of that. And if he gets colossus, I'll add corruptors. Just force the situation into a stephano-style 100+ drones mass infestor/spine game, except I don't need 5 bases like you do in a normal game, and maybe I can like cut on the upgrades or something to get the broods out quicker. And make way more spines, since I'm not in a hurry to get the broods anyways.
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If you would upload some reps where you take on 7+ immortals with drops, please, I'd love to see it, but I don't think drops would have worked in that occassion.
I posted a replay on the previous page where I used drops against a protoss who maxed on 2 base.
Here's the link again: http://drop.sc/190265
I did not drop roach/ling directly on his army, nor did I use baneling drops. Baneling drops would have been great, but i didn't make a baneling nest for some reason.
I drone up like crazy, and used drops to pin him and buy time while I turned my huge drone count into a lot of spinecrawlers and two dozen infestors (and I don't lose them all in one fight!). Without drops, I'm sure I would have lost my 4th base, but maybe I could have held onto my 3rd.
it's a bizarre game and probably not a very good example. But I defended a two base max protoss, and drops were instrumental in buying time.
Drops aside, look at my upgrades and drones and spinecrawlers and infestors and all that. There is plenty I can improve upon as well, so maybe you can learn from my game too.
It's just that awkward spot where I don't think I can go hive, broodlords, because he's obviously 2 base all-inning before broodlords. But maybe what I could do, is make a shitton of infestors now on, and like 20+ spines instead of just like 10+, and sit my ass hard on 4 base and just turtle up a broodlord army, despite the opponent doing a 2 base all-in.
I like the sound of that. And if he gets colossus, I'll add corruptors. Just force the situation into a stephano-style 100+ drones mass infestor/spine game, except I don't need 5 bases like you do in a normal game, and maybe I can like cut on the upgrades or something to get the broods out quicker. And make way more spines, since I'm not in a hurry to get the broods anyways
Yes, this sounds like a reasonable plan. I think that the upgrades are important, and 100 drones is too much against a 2 base opponent, because he can push at any time, but other than that it seems about right. I use drops to let me do a big counterattack if he moves out before I feel ready, and it gives me baneling drop as an option.
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^ Sorry, I missed that post.
That's an interesting concept.
K, so get drops to counterattack if he pushes. In the meantime, mass a shitton of spines and get infestors to force the game into a fast hive, mass infestor/spine game. Take my fourth, drone up, don't make lots of roaches, make lots of lings, use the drops to prevent toss from moving out or forcing a good base trade for me, while I make even more spines spines spines.
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http://drop.sc/226778
Here's a game I just played where someone did the 'late immortal/sentry'. It's not exactly like my other games, because the guy doesnt sit on his ass and mass 5+ immortals, but he it is like the game on ohana with the 3 gate sentry expand into immortal/sentry, in that he opens weird, and goes for an immortal/sentry timing.
So the guy opens with a 2 gate, but not a proxied one (he asked me at the start 'was i 7 pooling' maybe that has something to do with it? i dont know why, maybe he was 7 pooled every game prior to this...). I get gas before hatch and so I easily crush the 2 gate. His bo was basically something like:
2 gate, core, nexus, 3rd gate.
I see him grab a quick double gas, and usually when someone goes 1/3 gate sentry expand or the like, I gotta make roaches at 50+ in case of a zealot/sentry push, but I see quick double gas and so I drone harder, and I sac 2 overlords and a lot of lings to confirm that he's actually going immortals and not massing a ton of zealot/sentry.
So seeing what he's doing, instead of trying to fail like I have every game in this thread, I go with my personal method of dealing with a quick immortal/sentry all-in, which always works for me and works for nestea apparently, and go fast spire, cut the roach upgrades, and 6 gases.
He made a double forge, so I think he was just an idiot, but I have a ton of lings and I do the whole 'just outplay him and bait FF' thing, and recognize just straight up fighting him would do a lot of damage, so I do that, I take out all the sentry energy, and eventually the immortals with just pure ling.
He warps in lots of stalkers (i dont know why stalkers instead of zealots), but I recognize with reinforcing 4 x hatch larva inject lings and 15+ mutas on the way, I can straight up take him. So I do, and I win, he reinforces with stalkers, I have to back off for my lings, and then this goes back and forth like twice until I simply overpower him with ling/muta. I can't but think if he didnt do that stupid double forge thing, it wouldn't have worked out that easily, but whatever.
I imagine if he didn't go double forge like that, I would have just base traded. I was missing spines, I only didn't make them because I saw weakness and felt I could take him head on (yea, i guess that's kind of a gamble... but i knew what i could and couldnt take on), and I imagine if it wasn't like that, i would have base traded and won.
So I guess the lesson of the story is maybe I should just be going spire like I always do, drone better, scout better, and
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Do you have replays of you holding an immortal push that pushes out of the opponents base around 9:30-10:00 with fast spire?
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What do guys think about just getting an armor upgrade instead of ranged attack against this kind of build? You'll be focusing immortals early anyway mostly and roaches dont do more than 10 dmg per shot to them regardless of +attack, and it lengthens the engagement which is good for the zerg. Plus, it stops lings from getting 2-shot by zealots in the +1 attack, and benefits both roaches and lings anyway. Thoughts? 1000 pt masters here
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I used to do something like this (diamond), where I'd drop 2 extra robos during a push I could tell was going to fail, and then pump out 10 immortals in three production rounds, warp some units and push. Of course, the reason I could afford 3 robos + units is because my macro was bad and I was floating... =) However, I can attest that this is pretty good, if you slow down his transition to air and then hit before he has mutas out. (I used to move when I saw your spire going down with my obs.)
When I lost: Sometimes my opponent would have mutas faster than I expected and I'd just get crushed. Other times, I didn't have enough sentries (or got too many FFs baited out in open ground) and got swarmed with super ling-heavy ling-roach.
Wackyness: once I waited until I had 20 immortals before pushing, since I scouted pure roach. I pushed and killed his maxed roach army with brute force, losing my 4-6 sentries due to bad FFs. I had about 14 immortals left, but he was able to reinforce with mutas and clean up, losing only one base. Obviously mass immortal only isn't that great.. =D
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On July 24 2012 07:04 Noak3 wrote:
What do guys think about just getting an armor upgrade instead of ranged attack against this kind of build? You'll be focusing immortals early anyway mostly and roaches dont do more than 10 dmg per shot to them regardless of +attack, and it lengthens the engagement which is good for the zerg. Plus, it stops lings from getting 2-shot by zealots in the +1 attack, and benefits both roaches and lings anyway. Thoughts? 1000 pt masters here
If you're going Roach/Ling I'd be much more afraid of +1 armor than melee or ranged weapons. Armor affects all of your units, whereas an attack will only affect your ranged or melee units.
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EPT
