• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:59
CEST 01:59
KST 08:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters4[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244
Community News
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?85Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!42Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game SC4ALL: II Winner Will Earn a Spot at HSC 30! Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over September World Ranking: herO leads, Serral climbs
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly SC2 INu's Battles#20 [BO.9]
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This
Brood War
General
New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! [ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group A [ASL22] Ro24 Group F [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Brood War in Budapest ! WORTEX 2026 BW Finals
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV EVE Corporation [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
F* the Children and Get Off …
TrAiDoS
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8113 users

[H]How to beat late immortal/sentry? - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
July 24 2012 01:02 GMT
#61
Do you have replays of you holding an immortal push that pushes out of the opponents base around 9:30-10:00 with fast spire?


Check the "nestea's anti-immortal sentry build' thread I made. I posted quite a few reps of me using quick mutas to hold the standard immortal/sentry push. It's my standard response to robo play (you can't tell if it's a robo expand or robo all-in until after you throw down that spire, around 9:00, at basically when they start to move out) but it's good against either expands or all-ins. It's the basic idea of holding immortal/sentry all-ins - mass spines in nat, base trade, sac third (but keep drones on gas there), except instead of using roach/ling, I use ling/muta and completely cut out roach tech (depends on how early i saw his robo or sentry or how he took his gas to identify his build, but I may even not make a roach warren if I spot it early enough).

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Noak3
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States236 Posts
July 24 2012 01:45 GMT
#62
On July 24 2012 07:53 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2012 07:04 Noak3 wrote:
What do guys think about just getting an armor upgrade instead of ranged attack against this kind of build? You'll be focusing immortals early anyway mostly and roaches dont do more than 10 dmg per shot to them regardless of +attack, and it lengthens the engagement which is good for the zerg. Plus, it stops lings from getting 2-shot by zealots in the +1 attack, and benefits both roaches and lings anyway. Thoughts? 1000 pt masters here

If you're going Roach/Ling I'd be much more afraid of +1 armor than melee or ranged weapons. Armor affects all of your units, whereas an attack will only affect your ranged or melee units.



Right that's what I was thinking, but almost all pro zergs get +1 attack and then melee off a single evo chamber instead, which I dont understand. Any idea why that is? It seems much more worthwhile to just get the armor
Love and be kind in the face of adversity. If you stand up for others, they will stand up for you.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
July 24 2012 02:05 GMT
#63
^ Well, I don't get armor first because Toss usually races and chronos the fuck out of attack upgrades (and usually only attack upgrade off single forge), so there's no hope to try to catch up in Toss in upgrades. Zerg would also start +1 very late, since we get out evo, at the earliest, at 7:15, and usually we take it later to be greedier. By then, +1 is usually done for Toss and he's starting +2.

What's for sure, is that upgrades will never finish in time for a gateway all-in, so why bother. A 7:15 evo chamber, and 160 seconds for an upgrade, that means 35+160=185, 3 minutes essentially, so 10:20 is when +1 of anything would finish. That means at best, we might get it in time for an immortal/sentry all-in, but certainly not against anything else, and if Toss is playing a macro game, he'll have +2. And upgrades don't really make many critical hit numbers - like, zealots 2 shots lings instead of 3 shot, wow, that's amazing.

So for zerg to really change critical hit numbers, we have to be ahead of toss in upgrades in armor than their attack, which will just never happen. So +1 vs +0 immortal, roach takes one more shot to survive, true, that's nice, but that will be very near impossible to happen in a real game. Because check these numbers out:

+0 roach, +0 immortal, 3 shots.
1 roach, 0 immortal, 4 shots (yay right?)
2 roach, 1 immortal, 3 shots... ahh man wtf
3 roach, 1 immortal, 3 shots... fuck that shit, ill rather get a broodlord out than +3 armor

Also, against zealots...
If zerg is even in upgrades, it'll take 3 shots, and if you have +3 armor vs +0 zealot, it takes 4 hits! But.
+3 ling, +1 zealot, 3 hits (why bother?)
+2 ling, +0 zealot, 3 hits (why bother)

roach vs stalker...
0 roach, 0 stalker, 12 hits to kill roach
1 roach, 0 stalker, 13 hits, not special ;/
2 roach, 0 stalker, 14 hits, not special again

Now attack upgrades, for zerg, on the other hand...
0 ling, 0 stalker, 36 hits
1 ling, 0 stlkaer, 30 hits
1 ling, 1 stalker, 34 hits (hey an improvement, its balanced in favor of zerg)

ie you get the idea. tldr, not going to beat toss in the upgrade game, and since +3 weapons on toss doesnt mean much more than +1, dont worry about it. go for attack, which is always useful, and zerg is usually more worried about getting their tech on time rather than upgrades. For toss, yea, upgrades are important, same with marines. For zerg, it's not as important. Of course, in lategame, we are going to have double evo and all, but toss have chronoboost, and with ffe, you likely upgrade much earlier on. We aren't going to ever have an upgrade advantage on you, so we play the game with mass units or tech instead.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
July 24 2012 05:57 GMT
#64
Actuall Belial, if you are going to rely on 3 base + macro hatch Roach/Ling to hold off an all in you're much better off getting the carapace upgrade because your zerglings aren't as completely useless. But generally this kind of play is on a relatively low drone count and relies on a strong counter attack towards their third to get the time to drone up and transition to spire.

Any evo after lair generally won't get a timing where the Protoss' +1 weapons and the Zergs +1 carapace, so in those cases a +1 range would make a lot more sense .If you rely on Roach/Ling, melee upgrade is definitely the worst of the options if the protoss has gotten +1 because your Zerglings won't live long enough to get that extra efficiency considering they die 33% percent faster anyway, while the attack upgrade is only an increase 20% in efficiency.

Generally I prefer the following set up on upgrades:
- Does the protoss have a forge later than you get an evo chamber? Melee upgrade ( guaranteed +20% efficiency )
- Did the protoss go for a forge and you went evo before lair? Carapace upgrade ( maintaining efficiency on your zerglings, resulting in an 33% percent increase in efficiency compared to 0/0 lings )
- Did you go lair before evo? There is no way you can catch up or get reliable timings with melee and carapace upgrades. Might aswell make your roaches that tiny bit stronger.

But against the Immo-sentry all in, that's neither here nor there because even with +1 cara I can't hold it off reliably against good forcefields. So it doesn't really belong in this thread, just wanted to chime in on the upgrades.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
July 24 2012 06:08 GMT
#65
^ Thanks, that's a cool post.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason96
ProTech41
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 11079
GuemChi 1195
Rain 1069
firebathero 89
TT1 54
Hm[arnc] 24
Yoon 12
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm173
febbydoto22
League of Legends
Doublelift5147
JimRising 514
Counter-Strike
minikerr28
Other Games
summit1g15470
Liquid`RaSZi2535
PiGStarcraft264
ROOTCatZ45
ViBE28
Maynarde0
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2292
BasetradeTV92
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta25
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP8
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22303
Other Games
• imaqtpie1373
Upcoming Events
OSC
1m
CranKy Ducklings6
Afreeca Starleague
10h 1m
Soma vs Shuttle
BeSt vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
11h 1m
Monday Night Weeklies
16h 1m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 10h
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
GSL
1d 11h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Escore
4 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-02
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.