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[H]How to beat late immortal/sentry? - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
July 24 2012 01:02 GMT
#61
Do you have replays of you holding an immortal push that pushes out of the opponents base around 9:30-10:00 with fast spire?


Check the "nestea's anti-immortal sentry build' thread I made. I posted quite a few reps of me using quick mutas to hold the standard immortal/sentry push. It's my standard response to robo play (you can't tell if it's a robo expand or robo all-in until after you throw down that spire, around 9:00, at basically when they start to move out) but it's good against either expands or all-ins. It's the basic idea of holding immortal/sentry all-ins - mass spines in nat, base trade, sac third (but keep drones on gas there), except instead of using roach/ling, I use ling/muta and completely cut out roach tech (depends on how early i saw his robo or sentry or how he took his gas to identify his build, but I may even not make a roach warren if I spot it early enough).

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Noak3
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States236 Posts
July 24 2012 01:45 GMT
#62
On July 24 2012 07:53 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2012 07:04 Noak3 wrote:
What do guys think about just getting an armor upgrade instead of ranged attack against this kind of build? You'll be focusing immortals early anyway mostly and roaches dont do more than 10 dmg per shot to them regardless of +attack, and it lengthens the engagement which is good for the zerg. Plus, it stops lings from getting 2-shot by zealots in the +1 attack, and benefits both roaches and lings anyway. Thoughts? 1000 pt masters here

If you're going Roach/Ling I'd be much more afraid of +1 armor than melee or ranged weapons. Armor affects all of your units, whereas an attack will only affect your ranged or melee units.



Right that's what I was thinking, but almost all pro zergs get +1 attack and then melee off a single evo chamber instead, which I dont understand. Any idea why that is? It seems much more worthwhile to just get the armor
Love and be kind in the face of adversity. If you stand up for others, they will stand up for you.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
July 24 2012 02:05 GMT
#63
^ Well, I don't get armor first because Toss usually races and chronos the fuck out of attack upgrades (and usually only attack upgrade off single forge), so there's no hope to try to catch up in Toss in upgrades. Zerg would also start +1 very late, since we get out evo, at the earliest, at 7:15, and usually we take it later to be greedier. By then, +1 is usually done for Toss and he's starting +2.

What's for sure, is that upgrades will never finish in time for a gateway all-in, so why bother. A 7:15 evo chamber, and 160 seconds for an upgrade, that means 35+160=185, 3 minutes essentially, so 10:20 is when +1 of anything would finish. That means at best, we might get it in time for an immortal/sentry all-in, but certainly not against anything else, and if Toss is playing a macro game, he'll have +2. And upgrades don't really make many critical hit numbers - like, zealots 2 shots lings instead of 3 shot, wow, that's amazing.

So for zerg to really change critical hit numbers, we have to be ahead of toss in upgrades in armor than their attack, which will just never happen. So +1 vs +0 immortal, roach takes one more shot to survive, true, that's nice, but that will be very near impossible to happen in a real game. Because check these numbers out:

+0 roach, +0 immortal, 3 shots.
1 roach, 0 immortal, 4 shots (yay right?)
2 roach, 1 immortal, 3 shots... ahh man wtf
3 roach, 1 immortal, 3 shots... fuck that shit, ill rather get a broodlord out than +3 armor

Also, against zealots...
If zerg is even in upgrades, it'll take 3 shots, and if you have +3 armor vs +0 zealot, it takes 4 hits! But.
+3 ling, +1 zealot, 3 hits (why bother?)
+2 ling, +0 zealot, 3 hits (why bother)

roach vs stalker...
0 roach, 0 stalker, 12 hits to kill roach
1 roach, 0 stalker, 13 hits, not special ;/
2 roach, 0 stalker, 14 hits, not special again

Now attack upgrades, for zerg, on the other hand...
0 ling, 0 stalker, 36 hits
1 ling, 0 stlkaer, 30 hits
1 ling, 1 stalker, 34 hits (hey an improvement, its balanced in favor of zerg)

ie you get the idea. tldr, not going to beat toss in the upgrade game, and since +3 weapons on toss doesnt mean much more than +1, dont worry about it. go for attack, which is always useful, and zerg is usually more worried about getting their tech on time rather than upgrades. For toss, yea, upgrades are important, same with marines. For zerg, it's not as important. Of course, in lategame, we are going to have double evo and all, but toss have chronoboost, and with ffe, you likely upgrade much earlier on. We aren't going to ever have an upgrade advantage on you, so we play the game with mass units or tech instead.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
July 24 2012 05:57 GMT
#64
Actuall Belial, if you are going to rely on 3 base + macro hatch Roach/Ling to hold off an all in you're much better off getting the carapace upgrade because your zerglings aren't as completely useless. But generally this kind of play is on a relatively low drone count and relies on a strong counter attack towards their third to get the time to drone up and transition to spire.

Any evo after lair generally won't get a timing where the Protoss' +1 weapons and the Zergs +1 carapace, so in those cases a +1 range would make a lot more sense .If you rely on Roach/Ling, melee upgrade is definitely the worst of the options if the protoss has gotten +1 because your Zerglings won't live long enough to get that extra efficiency considering they die 33% percent faster anyway, while the attack upgrade is only an increase 20% in efficiency.

Generally I prefer the following set up on upgrades:
- Does the protoss have a forge later than you get an evo chamber? Melee upgrade ( guaranteed +20% efficiency )
- Did the protoss go for a forge and you went evo before lair? Carapace upgrade ( maintaining efficiency on your zerglings, resulting in an 33% percent increase in efficiency compared to 0/0 lings )
- Did you go lair before evo? There is no way you can catch up or get reliable timings with melee and carapace upgrades. Might aswell make your roaches that tiny bit stronger.

But against the Immo-sentry all in, that's neither here nor there because even with +1 cara I can't hold it off reliably against good forcefields. So it doesn't really belong in this thread, just wanted to chime in on the upgrades.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
July 24 2012 06:08 GMT
#65
^ Thanks, that's a cool post.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
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