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On July 13 2012 21:58 Gajarell wrote:
Interesting,
although playing p i would myself ask the following question, if it is an advantage why do i allow the Z to hatch-block, just holding a probe at your nat-exp position hard-counters this strategy. (and the z is behind)
Meh i can plant the hatch slightly misplaced. Its same game as pylon blocking. Most of the time a protoss gets down the blocking pylon
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On July 14 2012 04:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote:
I think hatch but canceling it and putting an evo chamber is better then building a hatchery and allowing it to finish imo. It's nice if you do that but having a hatchery finish i'm not sure how worth it that is. The Evo block costs you overall 200 minerals, the hatch block costs 350 (both incl drone). If the hatch gets finished, creep blocks for > 1 ingame minute for the cost of 150 minerals. If the hatch does not get through, better just cancel without evo follow up (because it will die fast then anyways). Doing immediate hatch cancel with evo follow up helps you getting your nat down quicker, but i think letting the hatch finish in case is more advantageous. Remember: Delaying the nexus for 1 minute is 4 probes less and 1,3 chronoboosts less. Actually Zerg has an advantage regarding drone production: Queens. Protoss needs that nexus in order to speed up probe production, Zerg can compensate partially because of larvae inject. Building a queen at the blocking hatch is overboard, as you will lose to an allin because you invested too much.
You have to realize though letting the hatchery finish you are not taking a third for awhile not if you are going to be droning and getting queens anyway. So this delays your third base quiet a bit, when going evo block it doesn't delay it anywhere near as much.
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On July 14 2012 04:12 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 04:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 13 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote:
I think hatch but canceling it and putting an evo chamber is better then building a hatchery and allowing it to finish imo. It's nice if you do that but having a hatchery finish i'm not sure how worth it that is. The Evo block costs you overall 200 minerals, the hatch block costs 350 (both incl drone). If the hatch gets finished, creep blocks for > 1 ingame minute for the cost of 150 minerals. If the hatch does not get through, better just cancel without evo follow up (because it will die fast then anyways). Doing immediate hatch cancel with evo follow up helps you getting your nat down quicker, but i think letting the hatch finish in case is more advantageous. Remember: Delaying the nexus for 1 minute is 4 probes less and 1,3 chronoboosts less. Actually Zerg has an advantage regarding drone production: Queens. Protoss needs that nexus in order to speed up probe production, Zerg can compensate partially because of larvae inject. Building a queen at the blocking hatch is overboard, as you will lose to an allin because you invested too much. You have to realize though letting the hatchery finish you are not taking a third for awhile not if you are going to be droning and getting queens anyway. So this delays your third base quiet a bit, when going evo block it doesn't delay it anywhere near as much.
You are right. But there is no need for a risky fast third against a one base protoss  .
What's nice with this opening is, that you force the Protoss to a) one base all in or b) play from behind with a late Nat. If Protoss chooses (b) you can get a save 3rd round 6-8 minutes and will be ahead without taking too much risk.
An uncontested FFE lets Protoss have 30 drones at 5'30, this is a Zerg-alike benchmark. That's why Zergs have to take a gasless fast third to get ahead, and the fast 3rd is the reason why 2 base all ins work that good for Protoss. However if P cannot probe up that quickly, the Zerg can build up a sufficient eco advantage on 2 bases delaying his third a bit.
(Ok this somewhat theorycrafting , maybe Protoss will come up with a good counter which will not let them get behind in probe count that much)
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On July 14 2012 04:44 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 04:12 blade55555 wrote:On July 14 2012 04:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 13 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote:
I think hatch but canceling it and putting an evo chamber is better then building a hatchery and allowing it to finish imo. It's nice if you do that but having a hatchery finish i'm not sure how worth it that is. The Evo block costs you overall 200 minerals, the hatch block costs 350 (both incl drone). If the hatch gets finished, creep blocks for > 1 ingame minute for the cost of 150 minerals. If the hatch does not get through, better just cancel without evo follow up (because it will die fast then anyways). Doing immediate hatch cancel with evo follow up helps you getting your nat down quicker, but i think letting the hatch finish in case is more advantageous. Remember: Delaying the nexus for 1 minute is 4 probes less and 1,3 chronoboosts less. Actually Zerg has an advantage regarding drone production: Queens. Protoss needs that nexus in order to speed up probe production, Zerg can compensate partially because of larvae inject. Building a queen at the blocking hatch is overboard, as you will lose to an allin because you invested too much. You have to realize though letting the hatchery finish you are not taking a third for awhile not if you are going to be droning and getting queens anyway. So this delays your third base quiet a bit, when going evo block it doesn't delay it anywhere near as much. You are right. But there is no need for a risky fast third against a one base protoss . What's nice with this opening is, that you force the Protoss to a) one base all in or b) play from behind with a late Nat. If Protoss chooses (b) you can get a save 3rd round 6-8 minutes and will be ahead without taking too much risk. An uncontested FFE lets Protoss have 30 drones at 5'30, this is a Zerg-alike benchmark. That's why Zergs have to take a gasless fast third to get ahead, and the fast 3rd is the reason why 2 base all ins work that good for Protoss. However if P cannot probe up that quickly, the Zerg can build up a sufficient eco advantage on 2 bases delaying his third a bit. (Ok this somewhat theorycrafting , maybe Protoss will come up with a good counter which will not let them get behind in probe count that much)
I would argue Zerg can't get a safe natural because P tech isn't delayed as much as econ is. I can still get robo and sentries off of 1 base while still scouting you and making immortals. If you try and take a third later than normal it will be a lot harder than if you didn't hatch/evo block and just took a normal early third, and your late third can be matched by me getting an earlier third as well.
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I let it finish if it will live long enough to build a queen from it, I then drop a creep tumor outside of cannon range and giggle maniacally as i saturate my natural, tech to roaches and mass up queen/roach (preparing for the inevitable all-in) with a quick enough lair to not die from dts. If protoss doesn't all-in and instead waits to get obs then take their nat, you should have time to max out on 3/4 base before they can saturate it.
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On July 13 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote:
I think hatch but canceling it and putting an evo chamber is better then building a hatchery and allowing it to finish imo. It's nice if you do that but having a hatchery finish i'm not sure how worth it that is.
Blade is totally correct, one, this saves you money and gives you an instant refund of the hatchery which will allow you plant your 2nd, and possible 3rd base at a faster rate, making all of your timings more executable. Not to mention, when the evolution chamber breaks it too has broodlings that can be effective in lower-leagues, One problem I see is that many players who have never cancelled there hatches into evo's might find it difficult to get first try, so practice on a custom game before attempting on ladder.
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I find much of the time when I've tried doing this the probe is chasing the drone and won't be able to build a hatchery there. They'll oftentimes even pull another probe in preparation because they think you're just trying to block with a drone.
As I see someone's already said, if you go for a pool before the hatch block, you can send in lings to distract the cannons allowing for just barely enough time to get a queen up and build a creep tumor, but that's really risky (namely due to a good player making a zealot to kill the tumor before it could finish, and/or probes or zealot attacking the hatchery before queen finishes)
On July 20 2012 11:05 Dbla08 wrote:
I let it finish if it will live long enough to build a queen from it, I then drop a creep tumor outside of cannon range and giggle maniacally As I pointed out it has some significant problems, but it can work, yeah. The cannon needs to finish after the hatchery's 50% construction mark to have enough time to build a queen if 1 cannon is the only thing attacking it (if there's probes then it needs to be even later, if there's 2 cannons or many probes then you're probably screwed — the time the zealot pops out convolutes things)
On July 20 2012 11:33 mYths wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote:
I think hatch but canceling it and putting an evo chamber is better then building a hatchery and allowing it to finish imo. It's nice if you do that but having a hatchery finish i'm not sure how worth it that is. Blade is totally correct, one, this saves you money and gives you an instant refund of the hatchery which will allow you plant your 2nd, and possible 3rd base at a faster rate, making all of your timings more executable. Not to mention, when the evolution chamber breaks it too has broodlings that can be effective in lower-leagues, One problem I see is that many players who have never cancelled there hatches into evo's might find it difficult to get first try, so practice on a custom game before attempting on ladder.
While it's probably a good move, it's not particularly obvious, I'd say.
You're gaining 150 minerals early on for a net loss of 75/125 more minerals than what would just be lost in a cancelled hatchery.
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On July 10 2012 05:58 HoMM wrote:If protoss underreacts and lets the hatch finish, you win the game if you get a queen out, pop down a creep tumor and the toss can never expand in their natural. If protoss overreacts and makes 2 cannons, he will have 150 minerals more in static defense + delayed nexus. If he pulls probes u can sometimes just cancel the hatch and its essentially 75 minerals lost for you vs all the mining time he lost. Also, you throw tosses off of any buildorder they were planning to do, which is huge as protosses really rely on their thought out refined 2base/3base builds. 
This is the most solid response given so far.
I would write my own response but this just about covers it. If you get a queen out YOU WIN
Also do not take a 3rd base of your own if you do not see your opponents nexus being thrown down.
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On July 10 2012 04:01 RealRook wrote:no, toss can just send 4 probes attacking it (hatch hp will stay still) and get a cannon, i actually like when zergs do this to me cause i always end up ahead
Incorrect response. Not gonna waste time doing math but it doesnt take that long to make 125 minerals of lost mining time with 4 probes
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United States4883 Posts
Response 1: build early core, build 2 cannons, block natural, and 4-gate ftw.
Response 2: (normal response) Send 2 probes to the natural, chase the drone out, block natural, put down nexus, proceed to win.
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I've seen some protoss streamers pylon block their own natural if they see an early drone scout
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I thinks its viable as a little mindgame for ladder, but i highly doubt that it works against decent opponents in cups. They know how to deal with it.
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This happened to me a few times, and while I won all but one of those games, now I just bring a probe down at 18 supply and place it on patrol to block a potential hatch until I drop my nexus. Trivial solution, and minimal lost mining time (something like 25 minerals).
On July 20 2012 13:05 EpidemicSC wrote:
This is the most solid response given so far.
I would write my own response but this just about covers it. If you get a queen out YOU WIN
I don't understand why people are saying this. Say p was going pylon, forge, nexus, and hadn't started his regular ffe cannon when you dropped the hatch. If he starts a cannon within 12 seconds of you planting the hatch, it's impossible for you to get a queen out. If he attacks the hatch with one probe right away, he has 38 seconds to react and build that first cannon. If he drops two cannons, he can start them 60 seconds after you drop the hatch. Basically, unless he has no idea how to react, you'll never get a queen out. Of course, even if you did, because he didn't want to waste money on more cannons, he will have gotten a gateway and a zealot or two--probably enough to kill the hatch, and more than enough to kill the creep tumor before it finishes spawning. Even if he doesn't kill the hatch or creep tumor, you'd have to place it pretty carefully to stay out of the 11 detection range of his first cannon. If he misses the tumor, he is in trouble, but at that point he deserves to be...
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Like Balgrog said, I feel like to achieve the same results an "economic early pool" (10 or 11) is better. Just send 6 lings and expand, macro behind it. You will delay his natural no matter what (he needs minerals to wall-in), kill bad players (about 50% of players in master don't know what to do - some reactions are hilarious), throw him off and auto win against a lot of early cheeses.
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I think hatch but canceling it and putting an evo chamber is better then building a hatchery and allowing it to finish imo. It's nice if you do that but having a hatchery finish i'm not sure how worth it that is.
what about just cancelling the hatch at the last second? I normally do that and i think the extra 75 minerals is worth it because you can just constantly build queens until you cancel the hatch and instantly build a third with the 225 back. also protoss can get away with just 1 cannon if you do an evo block, but they need 2 for hatchery, lest they open the opportunity for queens, zerglings, and creep tumors in their base
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I think it's an interesting move, saw it done to my friend who is mid master toss, and it was quite noticeable how much it messed with the toss. He didn't overreact at all and took it down when it was finished (far before a queen could come out) but the creep stays for so long so the zerg had no issue expanding before him even though he blocked. The zerg ended up winning the game with a superior economy.
It's obviously gamewinning if you can get a queen out, but that shouldn't be possible, 1 cannon and 1 zealot should be enough to kill the hatch before queen can pop. As for immediate cancel into evo, meh. It's obviously good if you're going for agression and you can time the broodlings together with lings at the front to break it, but I personally think the creep from the finished hatch delays the toss nat WAY longer and 300 minerals isn't such a huge deal when you can delay the toss for so long. Of course, your nat is delayed as well, but it isn't delayed even close to as much as the toss nat AND nowadays, toss can often put down their nexus before the zerg puts down hatch anyway (watch the latest games on artosis youtube with yonghwa, his nexus is always about 50% finished before min can put down his hatch.
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On July 14 2012 04:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Meh i can plant the hatch slightly misplaced. Its same game as pylon blocking. Most of the time a protoss gets down the blocking pylon
Nope. A pylon is small and not restricted in its build location by resources. It's easy to patrol a probe in such a position that the zerg player cannot place a hatch preventing your nexus. You just make a small patrol at the corner of your potential nexus that is furthest from the resources. If you need some help seeing where that is, you can just turn on the building grid and measure the distance by pretending to make a pylon until you get used to it.
EDIT: alternatively, you can just take your patrolling probe and a-move it towards the drone when it enters your base. Unlike probes, drones have to get to the center of the building they would like to make before creating it. Hence, you won't ever be able to place a hatch unless you are further from my probe than the radius of a hatchery (in fact, even further, since the drone has to decelerate). Further, since probes don't need to decelerate OR get to the middle of the building they'd like to create, even if you run around trying to block my nexus, it is far harder for you to do than for me.
On July 20 2012 16:21 nick00bot wrote:
also protoss can get away with just 1 cannon if you do an evo block, but they need 2 for hatchery, lest they open the opportunity for queens, zerglings, and creep tumors in their base
You don't need two cannons to kill a hatch before it spawns. If the toss starts a single cannon within the first 15 seconds of you starting the hatch and then starts attacking the hatch with the probe, the hatch will die before it spawns, at a cost in lost mining time of approximately 60 minerals. Even if you skip the probe and let the hatch finish, if you focus fire it with the cannon, it will die before spawning a second larva, and you'll have made gates and units while it was building, anyway (100s for hatch, 93s for gate+chrono'd zealot).
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On July 20 2012 16:36 Tobberoth wrote:
I think it's an interesting move, saw it done to my friend who is mid master toss, and it was quite noticeable how much it messed with the toss. He didn't overreact at all and took it down when it was finished (far before a queen could come out) but the creep stays for so long so the zerg had no issue expanding before him even though he blocked. The zerg ended up winning the game with a superior economy.
It's obviously gamewinning if you can get a queen out, but that shouldn't be possible, 1 cannon and 1 zealot should be enough to kill the hatch before queen can pop. As for immediate cancel into evo, meh. It's obviously good if you're going for agression and you can time the broodlings together with lings at the front to break it, but I personally think the creep from the finished hatch delays the toss nat WAY longer and 300 minerals isn't such a huge deal when you can delay the toss for so long. Of course, your nat is delayed as well, but it isn't delayed even close to as much as the toss nat AND nowadays, toss can often put down their nexus before the zerg puts down hatch anyway (watch the latest games on artosis youtube with yonghwa, his nexus is always about 50% finished before min can put down his hatch.
Exactly. A correct evaluation has to compare own delay against delay of opponent. A hatch cancel only makes sense if you detect an all-in, else it is worse if you put the damage done into the equation.
The main problem i face now is that P blocks his nat with a probe. This was not the case a month ago, which is an indication a lot of Zergs do this on ladder.
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You don't need two cannons to kill a hatch before it spawns. If the toss starts a single cannon within the first 15 seconds of you starting the hatch and then starts attacking the hatch with the probe, the hatch will die before it spawns, at a cost in lost mining time of approximately 60 minerals. Even if you skip the probe and let the hatch finish, if you focus fire it with the cannon, it will die before spawning a second larva, and you'll have made gates and units while it was building, anyway (100s for hatch, 93s for gate+chrono'd zealot).
yeah now that I think about it that only works when they try go nexus first, so i guess i should of specified that. you DO have to actually proxy hatch first to get that one to work though so it is pretty risky
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People were talking in the skytoss thread about playing with a macro nexus, and I wonder if it might be a reasonable response in this case. You could keep up on probe production easily, and you wouldn't have to make a third pylon, reducing the effective cost of the nexus to 300 minerals. It wouldn't be as critical an issue to get rid of the hatch as quickly as possible, since your probe count won't be delayed, and you can distance mine from your macro nexus to get part of the revenue you would otherwise, and eventually you can build your natural to regain full revenue, and be ahead of the game in probing up for your third. Meanwhile, you are safer versus baneling busts, since a nexus takes a ridiculous 26 banelings to bust (thanks for the 1300/600 resources bro), and covers so much space (5 hexes versus the 3 of a gateway) that you need fewer forcefields to cover the remaining space. It also seems safer versus speedling busts and roach busts.
Perhaps most importantly, it's pretty easy to saturate gas even with distance mining. You could prepare some pretty dangerous DT pressure, archons, fast colossi, huge immortal sentry allin, skytoss, etc.
Just theorycrafting, but if you kill the hatch before it finishes, assuming it was placed by 3:00, you should be able to place your third at about have your third (natural) nexus finished by about 7:00 (giving about a minute for creep to recede), and have 70 probes before 10 minutes, with ZERO chronoboost (so you can spend it all on upgrades or chronoing tech units), or by 9:00 with a reasonable amount of chrono.
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EPT
