EPT[D] ZvP blocking Protoss' nat with hatch. - Page 3
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
What do you think can be a good 2 base trasition to press the issue and kill him? maybe mutaslisks? maybe a ling infestor attack with infested terrans lobbed over his wall? or just roach ling into third? I would love to hear your suggestions | ||
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Sprite_
Canada51 Posts
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Kpaxlol
813 Posts
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johax
Sweden165 Posts
On July 11 2012 22:17 BoggieMan wrote: Someone did this against mc in the gsl and lost completely onesided. Its decent if your opponent does not know how to react, but i guess every cheese is. what happened in the game and what did mc do? | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 11 2012 22:17 BoggieMan wrote: Someone did this against mc in the gsl and lost completely onesided. Its decent if your opponent does not know how to react, but i guess every cheese is. its not cheese if you omit the ling follow up. its similar to pylon blocking the zergs nat and third. if you cancel the hatch, you just lost 75 mins, thats less than a pylon .. A standard situation is: protoss blocks nat with a pylon, so you hava to wait for lings anyway, since you have already 300 mins saved up, why not block the protoss nat until the blocking pylon is removed ? This way you ensure that his nat is not earlier than yours (incase you do cancel-into-evo or let hatch finish, your nat will be earlier than the Protoss nat, which should be an advantage) | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 11 2012 22:36 Asolmanx wrote: I tried to do this, and it worked great. I let the hatch finish and i managed to use the broodligns and some lings i had just outside his base (8 lings) to kill a cannon and a pylon powering all of the buildings in his wall. he had to wait until the creep faded away before making his nexus. At the same time, he tried to cannon rush my natural and failed miserably, so he placed a cannon + pylon in my third, which i noticed only after i tried to send a drone to expand. At this point i did the stupidest thing ever, i tried a nydus hydra ling attack, which failed miserably. What do you think can be a good 2 base trasition to press the issue and kill him? maybe mutaslisks? maybe a ling infestor attack with infested terrans lobbed over his wall? or just roach ling into third? I would love to hear your suggestions One of the all-ins after this will be dts, so you'll want lair regardless. I strongly prefer roach-ling as a followup because it's likely he'll 4gate you (you can see from this thread how 4gate is the go-to response from most toss), and if he catches you with a low spine count while teching, you'll die. Roach-ling will also give you the option of pressuring him if he does retake his natural, and this can force cannons or sentries at a time when he wants to get his natural running and probe count up. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
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TibblesEvilCat
United Kingdom766 Posts
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Finchy711
United States48 Posts
But seriously, I've been talking to my Zerg friends and to random people on my stream(http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Finchy711 in case anyone wants to check it out =P) about this and I think this is a fantastic thing to do whenever you can. Personally I think the pro's greatly outweigh the cons to doing this. You're not really delaying yourself THAT much (if you're trying to do the gasless Stephano style) and you make the toss tech instead of chronoing out a super economy. The thing is you don't need the third out THAT fast if you don't have the drones to saturate it, and you have enough larva to pump drones constantly from 2hatch + queens. Usually what I do is throw down my 3rd whenever I cancel the hatch with that burst of minerals. If toss only makes 1 cannon and doesn't pull probes then I think its correct to cancel hatch > evo chamber and delay as much as possible, then scout his 1base play. For me, the best part about doing this are actually the 1-base all-ins that come after. Once you learn how to defend all the all-ins they can throw at you its a free win and collect points. The only follow up toss can do that scares me is a zlot heavy 4gt with +1, but even this can be defended if you scout the forge and make roaches and spines accordingly. Any robo tech comes too late to be scary imo, and air/DT's are shut down by evo / queens. (Just for frame of reference I'm a relatively high masters Zerg 617 points currently -- if you want to talk more about this or other Zerg related things come check out my stream =P) EDIT: accidentally deleted a section -_-' | ||
KingLumps
74 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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envisioN .
United States552 Posts
On July 13 2012 05:51 Xequecal wrote: I still don't see how this can possibly be good unless the Protoss has absolutely no idea how to react. The lost larva is just humungously crippling for Zerg. To illustrate this, take the cannon rush against Zerg. Protoss can spend 550 minerals on 3 cannons and a pylon, and even if Zerg cancels the hatchery and immediately remakes it at the third they are still massively behind due to lost larva. This is despite the fact that they only lose 75 minerals while Protoss wastes 550 minerals. Blocking the Protoss natural with your hatchery is gifting them the exact same advantage, only voluntarily. I think the fact that the zerg cannot take his natural in the near future because of the cannons without making a LARGE early investment into units is what really hurts the zerg, not necessarily the larvae. The hatch block at the natural can be very useful and gain a large advantage for the zerg if, AND ONLY IF, the protoss' initial cannon cannot both defend his wall and hit the hatch. (ie walled at ramp on antiga or ohana). Then it forces the toss to build 1-2 more cannons that are semi-useless and sometimes lose mining tim if he decides to pull probes to attack the building hatchery. For a follow up, it is essential to have an overlord be able to check if he takes the expansion once the creep clears, because then the zerg can take a 3rd and drone hard to cement the advantage. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
If the Protoss is smart, he won't all-in, but will simply play a pressure based (+1 4gate or Stargate) macro game (or quick third) to maximize the economic damage born from the Zerg's lack of Larva. Doing a pressure will force the Zerg to build something other than Drones and may deny the third base or delay it significantly. In this respect, it's not really worth the Zerg's effort because a delayed Zerg third is a huge deal compared to a slightly delayed Protoss natural, because the former delays tech whereas the latter doesn't, as Protoss's primary Warpgate tech can still be acquired on 1 base. Just my 0.2 | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On July 13 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote: I think hatch but canceling it and putting an evo chamber is better then building a hatchery and allowing it to finish imo. It's nice if you do that but having a hatchery finish i'm not sure how worth it that is. Here's me playing as P against a hatch block (Im not good by the way so this is definitely doable) http://drop.sc/221043 As you can see it illustrates what blade says, which is simply "building a hatch, letting it finish, then making a queen is going a little too far." In PvZ I do +1 zeals to DT anyways, but the hatch block made it so Zerg couldn't do his early third because a hatch block doesn't throw off zealot timings but it does delay hatch for Zerg. Anyway, hope Ps can find this helpful. The real secret is to go for the creep tumor (just expect it to be spawned and hit it with zeal (or cannon if he makes a mistake). I think for my particular build the archon option and an early +1 beats any mass lings that can come from this so maybe I get lucky? Stargate was in case of muta but I decided to attack anyway. | ||
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Gajarell
Germany29 Posts
although playing p i would myself ask the following question, if it is an advantage why do i allow the Z to hatch-block, just holding a probe at your nat-exp position hard-counters this strategy. (and the z is behind) | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 13 2012 05:51 Xequecal wrote: I still don't see how this can possibly be good unless the Protoss has absolutely no idea how to react. The lost larva is just humungously crippling for Zerg. To illustrate this, take the cannon rush against Zerg. Protoss can spend 550 minerals on 3 cannons and a pylon, and even if Zerg cancels the hatchery and immediately remakes it at the third they are still massively behind due to lost larva. This is despite the fact that they only lose 75 minerals while Protoss wastes 550 minerals. Blocking the Protoss natural with your hatchery is gifting them the exact same advantage, only voluntarily. Starcraft is a 2 player game, right ? You do more damage than you suffer, because delaying the Nexus for up to 3 minutes means he loses probe production and chrono energy same as you lose larvae. However a hatch blocks for a longer time than a pylon. And a 14 pool gets units to remove the block out faster than a FFE, so you will plant your nat before the protoss. If you don't hatch block, get your nat after removing the block, you plant your nat 30 to 60 seconds *after* the protoss (FFE nat is ~2'50..3'10). If you can get your nat uncontested, do not place the blocking hatch. If he puts a blocking pylon (standard), you anyway will have a late nat (~3'30..4'00). If you put a blocking hatch, you can take your nat at 4'00 (after building queen, lings and ovie, wothout canceling the block) so in real games (where your nat is blocked) you are better off with hatch blocking. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 13 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote: I think hatch but canceling it and putting an evo chamber is better then building a hatchery and allowing it to finish imo. It's nice if you do that but having a hatchery finish i'm not sure how worth it that is. The Evo block costs you overall 200 minerals, the hatch block costs 350 (both incl drone). If the hatch gets finished, creep blocks for > 1 ingame minute for the cost of 150 minerals. If the hatch does not get through, better just cancel without evo follow up (because it will die fast then anyways). Doing immediate hatch cancel with evo follow up helps you getting your nat down quicker, but i think letting the hatch finish in case is more advantageous. Remember: Delaying the nexus for 1 minute is 4 probes less and 1,3 chronoboosts less. Actually Zerg has an advantage regarding drone production: Queens. Protoss needs that nexus in order to speed up probe production, Zerg can compensate partially because of larvae inject. Building a queen at the blocking hatch is overboard, as you will lose to an allin because you invested too much. | ||
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