EPT[D] ZvP blocking Protoss' nat with hatch. - Page 2
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
It does throw you out of your build, basically you have to choose either to stay behind and play your style or transition to some kind of one base play. For me it's 50/50, as i play sky toss and don't really care, as anyway i play turtle and if i get a hatch block, then just throw down a macro nexus after forge. Or just transition into 5 gate+1 allin, which actually work very well, as zerg usually now double expands behind hatch block and when 5 gate hits he don't really have any army. Actully giving a thought what you need to do when hatch blocked is scout, if Z does double expand - allin. If he stays on 2 base, then a bit delayed expo against 2 base zerg is't much of a deal. On July 10 2012 15:10 ajkayken wrote: i just thought of something dirty. what about 3hatch before pool at 18food (2overlords). 1 of those hatches in his natural he can cannon rush your natural or his natural, either way his nexus is ultra delayed and you could even have queens/zerglings at his natural if he cannon rushes your natural. heck even start mining his natural seems so dirty Just be aware that eventually you'll lose both hatches, and that means no larvae. | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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Millet
Sweden143 Posts
On July 10 2012 15:16 Heh_ wrote: As a protoss when I see hatch block, I just 4gate them. Played 2 games against hatch block, won both of them. That is considering you go for some kind of gateway expand. If you go for forge first and cannon, expecting to throw down your nexus, your 4 gate will be delayed until about around 7.30, at which point the zerg has plenty of roach ling to defend that push. Or is there something im missing? | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On July 10 2012 20:19 Millet wrote: That is considering you go for some kind of gateway expand. If you go for forge first and cannon, expecting to throw down your nexus, your 4 gate will be delayed until about around 7.30, at which point the zerg has plenty of roach ling to defend that push. Or is there something im missing? Your 4gate gets delayed by a minimal amount of time. If you went forge first and nexus gets blocked, just build a gateway and assimilator immediately, followed by a pylon. From there it's the standard 4 gate rush: zealot + 2 stalkers from the gateway, mass chrono on cyber. If the zerg player hasn't taken his natural yet, then don't do this. If somehow you went nexus first and he hatch blocks, then throw down the gateway and forge together. You still need the forge for cannons. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Generally, the hatch will die after 2-3 larva even off 1 cannon, and that is simply not enough to do anything with, and definitely not worth the 225 minerals it will cost you to let it finish. Most of the time, I just use the hatch block to keep the game even, as what I'm really looking for is a nexus first, where I can proxy hatch the main for the win. So... Assuming Protoss went for forge first, I go for a block on their nexus, then I go for my natural, then my 3rd, but if I am taking my 3rd before my nat, I am generally behind, either of the others is fine, with the hatch block being preferred. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
On July 10 2012 04:01 RealRook wrote: no, toss can just send 4 probes attacking it (hatch hp will stay still) and get a cannon, i actually like when zergs do this to me cause i always end up ahead  Is pulling probes like this an optimal way to deal with a proxy hatch? I kind of feel like letting a hatch finish with full hp before my 1-2 cannons start working on it puts me a bit more behind than it does for the zerg player. This sounds like a better solution, but is the lost mining time worthwhile (hatch cancel or not)? | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 10 2012 14:10 6xFPCs wrote: Ok, so I want to preface these replays by saying that I'm not trying to suggest this become some new standard of play. What i'm suggesting is that it is a new all-in/timing to keep FFE-only toss on their toes in the early game, which until nerchio started doing crazy stuff was widely perceived to be wholly locked down and safe. At best, I think this is something to add to your arsenal, should he forge first and you can put down the hatch. At worst, I'm grasping at straws and blues are going to eat me alive for this (in which case, let's playtest before temp ban?). Let me be clear: I believe that proxy hatch at protoss natural only works against forge first. Should be obvious, nexus first means no place to put your hatch, and nexus first is a different story (though I still think zerg can pull 6 drones to kill that first cannon should he nexus first). Also, I dropped to diamond at the start of this season so these games are against diamond. I was once low masters (i.e. last season), for whatever that's worth to you. Testing partners welcome (PM me). I don't present these replays as anything but food for thought. summary: + Show Spoiler + close spawns entombed valley. he forge firsts, I put down a 16 proxy hatch at his natural. he places one cannon, i make lings from 15ish drones. as he kills hatch, i have lings ready to run in, and i shred his cannon plus some probes. from there he is in emergency mode, chronos zealot and pulls some probes, puts down two more cannons; ling reinforcements, plus lings from larvae of proxy hatch, ensure i break it all down. gg, though he could wall at top of ramp or something? This is the only game I could find that really demonstrates what I meant. The Valley's wide ramp makes this abuse very hard to stop without them scouting and overcompensating with a giant early wall. Yes, I build a lot of lings and it makes it pretty all-in, I didn't realize this until I rewatched. But I still think that since broodling+8 lings took down the cannon even with 3-4 probes fighting, there's room for abuse on the right maps. http://drop.sc/217866 summary: + Show Spoiler + antiga close spawns. i proxy hatch at the usual 16, stopping my drone at my natural to do it. this gives him a pylon block. doesn't matter, I pump lings and shred the pylon, then the same kind of wait-outside-natural-until broodlings deal. i kill two cannons, game goes longer and we suck at macro so random stuff happens. pylon wall on high ground is interesting, me pumping lings after i took out power to gateway was a really really really bad choice. don't make bad choices. Antiga. Wish I had a good game to show on antiga because the forward wall normally forces the first cannon to be built too far away to hit the hatch. This is a terrible game, super terrible actually. The only reason I'm including it is because it shows that you can take down two early and finished cannons (!, meh, and ! on those adjectives, respectively) by pumping lings and abusing broodlings on hatch death. Yes, probe scouting would tip them off and they could pull probes and be ahead; this is proof of concept to show that toss has to be on their toes or you'll steal a win from nowhere, even against two cannons. http://drop.sc/217868 summary: + Show Spoiler + I proxy hatch, he drops (eventually a total of) two extra cannons, weird choice. i get the queen out regardless but screw up the tumor placement. i don't scout and die to unscouted one-base. reminder: this one is mostly to see how the macro plays out for master toss who doesn't die to my shenanigans. Just adding this one because it shows the protoss response you may need to be aware of, and I think this guy is masters, so provides a better example of toss macro when faced with this (probably better, but I didn't really check, having spent nearly an hour fishing out these three replays). He drops an extra two cannons (questionable or smart? no idea) and gets a quick zealot to be safe, then one-bases me (5gate +1? can't recall). I screw up royally even though I get a queen out by putting the creep tumor too close to a cannon. I die because I'm too cheap to sac the overlord near the natural. Don't be a cheap zerg. http://drop.sc/217867 If I may sum up my opinions: I believe that there are weak points in FFE that we haven't bothered to check for (busy 3hatching and being greedy, etc.), that proxy hatch before natural opens these up for exploitation against forge first, and that a drone pull opens up a timing against nexus first. I think that the two types of FFE openings are eminently punishable, and I have been saying for months that it's time to start making protoss worry a little more about their FFE. EDIT: added game summaries to make it easier, and so you can yell at me if the replays are wrong. Thanx for the input (nice troll play in game 2 btw ). The agressive ling follow up seems like a valid option, however if you would have played pure macro (2-4 lings only) it would have been very advantageous, too. In all of the 3 games you came out pretty ahead (assumed you build drones instead of lings). Your nat was already complete while the Protoss did not even start his. So it seems like its very advantageous macro wise, because you can outmacro him on 2 bases and take the third without taking the all-in risk of standard 3 hatch play. If the P decides to go for one base play/all in its GG except you mess up big time. Wonder how this opening turns out if the Protoss reacts better. If there are no better options for P than those in these replays, FFE is a dead opening | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 11 2012 00:08 Jermstuddog wrote: I have been doing this for a while now, and personally, I always cancel the hatch unless I am sure it will live for at least 50 seconds after completion, allowing me to get a queen out (tumor in the Nat is basically gg) Generally, that means if even 1 cannon is made and nothing else, cancelling is the better option. Generally, the hatch will die after 2-3 larva even off 1 cannon, and that is simply not enough to do anything with, and definitely not worth the 225 minerals it will cost you to let it finish. Most of the time, I just use the hatch block to keep the game even, as what I'm really looking for is a nexus first, where I can proxy hatch the main for the win. So... Assuming Protoss went for forge first, I go for a block on their nexus, then I go for my natural, then my 3rd, but if I am taking my 3rd before my nat, I am generally behind, either of the others is fine, with the hatch block being preferred. I am not that sure. If the hatch is killed after it finishes, it takes > 1 minute until creep is gone. That means >= 4 probes less for the protoss and 1 minute longer mining off the oversaturated main. I think the damage you do is more worth than you gain of 225 minerals when canceling. Also its guaranteed damage, as the protoss cannot take another base without huge risk. Actually i think Protoss has to prevent the hatch from coming up at virtually any cost. Hatch completes == GG macrowise imo | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On July 11 2012 05:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: I am not that sure. If the hatch is killed after it finishes, it takes > 1 minute until creep is gone. That means >= 4 probes less for the protoss and 1 minute longer mining off the oversaturated main. I think the damage you do is more worth than you gain of 225 minerals when canceling. Also its guaranteed damage, as the protoss cannot take another base without huge risk. Actually i think Protoss has to prevent the hatch from coming up at virtually any cost. Hatch completes == GG macrowise imo Unfortunately, that only matters if Protoss bullheadedly focuses on killing the hatch and reclaiming his natural. He COULD and SHOULD just go immediately into a +1 4 gate, and that is going to be pretty fucking hard to hold off considering you've spent 350 on a hatch in his natural (he can even use a Zealot or two to clean up the hatch since he doesn't care about creep spread) and delayed your own natural and queen by at least a full minute. Cute strats are cute, but you have to know how to keep from dying to equally cute bullshit. +1 4 gates are pretty cute, and pretty hard to stop when you're 350 minerals behind where you should be. | ||
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StriderDoom
United States17 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
If Zerg doesn't cancel, +1 4 gate FTW. If Zerg cancels, you just proceed with a normal game, using a zealot w/ 2 stalker poke at the 3rd to force non-drones out of Z. It's ok if the Zealot dies, but do NOT lose your stalkers. Follow up with your favorite 2 base attack, which should only be about 30 seconds behind standard timings, which is fine because Z should be behind by about as much. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 11 2012 08:03 Jermstuddog wrote: Unfortunately, that only matters if Protoss bullheadedly focuses on killing the hatch and reclaiming his natural. He COULD and SHOULD just go immediately into a +1 4 gate, and that is going to be pretty fucking hard to hold off considering you've spent 350 on a hatch in his natural (he can even use a Zealot or two to clean up the hatch since he doesn't care about creep spread) and delayed your own natural and queen by at least a full minute. Cute strats are cute, but you have to know how to keep from dying to equally cute bullshit. +1 4 gates are pretty cute, and pretty hard to stop when you're 350 minerals behind where you should be. yeah, just discovered this the hard way on ladder this day ..Actually all inning 4 gateish is not the worst option for the P. It is holdable, but in order to hold that you need to build army/static defense, which lets your macro advantage shrink. However i still prefer 2 vs 1 base play over standard 3 vs 2 base. will fiddle around with this for some time .. | ||
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S2Glow
Singapore1042 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 11 2012 12:22 S2Glow wrote: i tried this and the protoss just let it finish and he use his canon to kill >< and i planted my queen egg there , so by delaying , whos having advantage now? me or him? against a gm btw Do you mean tumor? If you get the tumor down, prepare for an all-in, because it'll delay him at least an extra cannon, if not until obs come out, so at that point there's no point in him expanding anymore and I think almost every toss will do something off one base. If you mean you burnt/wasted a spawn larvae, you might be behind. It's really hard to tell, but I feel like I'm slightly ahead (say, a little less ahead than toss is after pylon blocking your natural) if I don't invest in a queen at the proxy hatch. Since you say you played vs a GM, I'm curious: how did the game play out? Sounds like you proxy hatched on 16, and he slowly killed it with one cannon, allowing you to get a queen and tumor out, in which case I don't see how you could have lost, he's invested in a cannon and you just need to get roach-ling and some spines (less lings because it's likely he'll get +1, which you can see on the forge) to defend your natural against the 4-5gate, making sure he doesn't run up the ramp. EDIT: restraint against bad posts. | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
If protoss does place more backwards cannons/pylons, I will always try to let the hatchery finish and get out a queen. I've not only delayed his expansion at this point, I've also forced him to toss away upwards 250 minerals on maps like Antiga where a frontal wall won't reach the building hatchery. If the queen finish you can plop down a creep tumor and laugh as you've now entirely shut down the Protoss expansion for 500 minerals cost, while he's paid 150 for the forge and 300 for two cannons. It almost evens out and is definitively worth it if you're capable of keeping your macro up in the background. ♥ | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On July 11 2012 15:29 Xana wrote: When you hatch block just keep the overlord over his base so you can see exactly what he plans to build. As getting more pylons/cannons would mean so heavily delayed 4-gate that it doesn't really matter. Likewise, getting a cybercore/gas would mean a furtherly delayed nexus, so you can do any of the oldschool two-base plays with an extra queen and a spine or two. - and get away with cancelling the Hatchery! If protoss does place more backwards cannons/pylons, I will always try to let the hatchery finish and get out a queen. I've not only delayed his expansion at this point, I've also forced him to toss away upwards 250 minerals on maps like Antiga where a frontal wall won't reach the building hatchery. If the queen finish you can plop down a creep tumor and laugh as you've now entirely shut down the Protoss expansion for 500 minerals cost, while he's paid 150 for the forge and 300 for two cannons. It almost evens out and is definitively worth it if you're capable of keeping your macro up in the background. ♥ Sounds like the best option. Scout wether he prepares a one base push (4,5 gate) and if so, cancel hatch, else let it finish. good plan . | ||
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HoBb3
Sweden38 Posts
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