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I've been playing this style in masters lately and it works very well, surprised with the results actually. I like to get +1 melee before lair and a roach warren in case of an allin but I won't make any unless absolutely necessary. What I found to work as well is 6 infestors once pathogen glands is finished, second evo timed to start +2/+1 at the same time, NP as soon as I have the gas after the infestors and then hive. Hive usually starts around 12:00 and is in time for anything I got thrown at me.
It also seems you need 7 gas to be able to get the ultra cavern, baneling nest, adrenal and +3 melee as the hive pops. That is if you do stop at 6 infestors, I feel more gas is better invested in ultras and banelings but it might depend on playstyle. Positioning is huge when playing like this, the outcome completely changes.
Also NP is energy better spent past the first 2/3 fungals because banelings will wreck the protoss army so fast the damage over time is not really worth it compared to grabbing a couple colossi or archons. Only time I feel I really need it is against blink.
Overall very fun style that actually works.
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Ok I actually tried something just a bit different. (note: I have a bug where I start games 15 secs late...so everything here i subtracted 15 secs)
Standard timings for everything except:
1) double gas at 5:15 (note: only 2 in gases)
2) lair with 1st 100 gas, speed with 2nd 100
So, the timings work out:
-lair done at 8 min
-hive done at 11 min
-broods morphing at 13
-maxed on roach/ling/infestor/brood at 13:30
So, I guess my point is that this seems like a pretty damn good way to legitimately counter the 3 base protoss pushes. In addition, this build will get infestors out in time to deal with a heavy tech all in (sentry/immortal).
I am willing to bet also that if you scout a crazy gateway allin with cut probes, you could cancel the lair and flood roaches to hold it. THe timings work out quite nice....a bit before 8 min is when you would scout that out and want to make a decision on making units. You have till 8 min to cancel the lair, and use the money for defense. If I'm not mistaken, speed finishes at a similar time also.
I have this feeling that the standard stephano timings are goiong to eventually be refined a bit...and the changes will be considered standard. Perhaps not mine of course...but his timings were always really to line up with a mass roach/ling flood to shut down a third. I find it hard to believe those timings are optimal for all other options. As zergs get away from roach allins on 3 bases...timings will/should change some.
I attached a replay below. I still hit 65 drones at 8 min...in spite of a supply block right there. I am willing to bet better players could easily surpass 70 with gas at the same times.
replay: http://drop.sc/244330
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What do you mean 'standard stephano timings'? Why do people say that ~_~
And mass roach/ling is just an all-in off 3 base to kill Toss or do crippling damage, like kill their third. If you don't do serious damage, as in at least kill the third or Toss' army with roach/ling, you are pretty much going to lose the game because your infestors will be too late (hyun vs mana is a perfect example of this), and your broodlords won't be out in time against 3+ 3 base colossus pre-broodlord timing.
Zergs these days dont' make any roaches if they want to play a macro game, the symbol games noted in the OP are a perfect example of how quickly you can get hive if you don't make any roaches. The difference is that symbol is opting to use ultras to straight up fight the 3+ colossus push, instead of using mass spines to buy a little more time, so that you can effectively and safely transition into broodlords. This ultra style is a lot more aggressive than massing spines and turtling to get broodlords. It has it's weaknesses and strengths, just like turtling with mass spines does. This style is strong against a Toss who pushes out pre-broodlord, which is what massing spines is struggling to fight against, and is also strong if Toss just takes a fourth, something massing spines kind of sucks against.
If you hit 65 drones at 8:00, that would be fucking amazing. You sure you don't mean 65 supply? There's a big difference between the two, as even if you purely drone, and hit 80 supply, you won't be past 55 drones since much of that supply will be tied up in morphing drones, not to mention queens, lings, roaches even, etc.
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I'd like to think of the Stephano style xax roach-ling as a defensive response to a mass warpgate push (obsolete) instead of a build order win. I usually go for an massive attack on his 3rd with the objective of denying the 3rd as long as possible. I usually win the game at this point. I also don't reinforce with roaches because I'd rather spend them on infestors. I create more lings if I feel I can go for the kill.
The point in any ZvP is get to the point of infestors and broodlords. Going Ultras is an absolutely great idea to get there. So toss won't decide to push you until you get broodlords. The important thing to note is
ONLY MAKE ENOUGH ULTRAS AND BANELINGS TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM ANY ATTACK
the main objective here is still get to BL/Infestor.
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EPT
