|
Lately I was trying a type of style with Baneling, like Dimaga, and then Ultras. I try to avoid to use Roach bcuz I dont like that unit :D, and I try to hurry up melee upgrades.
My build order is something like Dimaga, but with some variation:
In simple words:
14Pool
Hatch when you can, queen 4 ling
24 Hatch
27 Gas 100@gas speedling
44 gas
60 Doble evo chamber, when they're ready I get +1melee +1caparace
70 Gas x2
After I get my upgrades, I get Lair And Bane nest.
80 Gas x2
Then, depends on the map I get Speed for banes, Drops and Speed for ovies, or tech to hive really fast.
When I get drop, I try to do some Ling bane attack with drops meanwhile I'm teching to ultras.
I like to get a fast gas to get speedling and get map control, bcuz I dont wanna make roach to stop a push bcuz I missed I pylon or something like that.
After I get my Ultras I make 2 Spire and attack, with Ling bane ultra and infestor with NP.
In this games I was played vs a Protoss GM in Na (I'm top master), and I executed this build. 
http://drop.sc/215472
Sorry for my bad english
|
Russian Federation22 Posts
|
I do think that symbol is taking steps to use everything zerg has to offer, and he has created a standard from it.
The thing about going this style is if the protoss just skips colo like goes sentry immortal into a third. Then blink and Temp archives. Storm/archons into voids and teching to mothership. Super standard and basic but colo are finally being countered with these types of styles. maybe after a million years protosses will mix it up more. haha :p
|
^ right... and he'll be stopped by mass spines+infestor. Zerg can just go straight into broodlords.
It's a back and forth for both players, for zerg to identify if toss is going templar tech (in which case he cuts the ultra and goes quicker broods), and smilarly, for toss to identify if zerg is going ultra/bane (in which case he should be passive, and go templar tech). Like in the game vs bbongbbong, you can be blind countered basically by someone going templar tech (imo the guy just played bad, he was outplayed all game long but did something so goofy i dont think anyone does at the moment), while if you play 'standard', the ultras will do a lot of damage. In the end, regardless of how well toss 'counters' zerg, if you go ultras as zerg, you can prevent dying to that 3+ colossus deathball push, and force the game into broodlords. I think any toss will admit that it's rather uncomfortable to play against broodlords, no matter how far ahead they are.
|
On June 20 2012 15:22 NrGmonk wrote:
The counter for this as toss is extremely passive turtle play. A unit composition consisting of some combination of mainly archon/immortal/colossi/templar is the best. Zealots are pretty much worthless except for reinforcements after all banelings die, and you want as few stalkers as possible, as they don't really contribute much to the fight. Leftover sentries should be used to hallucinate archons. Fortify all your bases with spread out cannons. Basically just turtle like no other. If you reach a maxout with this composition, baneling/ultra cannot touch you. Double upgrades are also really bad versus this style cause all the main units(banelings and ultras) don't really care much about armor.
In the 2nd game, Parting got a huge lead, but was just overly aggressive. In the 3rd game, Parting was just caught off guard. He didn't get to use hallucination or spread out his army. Both games are good demonstrations of this style, but in both games I feel like Parting just wasn't used to facing it enough and made huge blunders.
I think void rays would be a pretty good response, they do good damage versus roach, ultra and infestor and of course brood lords. Zergs only aa will be infested terrans and fungals, and later corruptors, so with micro and later on hts and archons they should not be too vulnerable. And of course, when striving for a 200/200 army voids rays are excellent because of their low supply cost relative to their power.
|
People stopped using void rays as a 'counter' to Zerg when zergs started to get infestors over hydras. Void rays aren't that useful lategame in ZvP due to infestors.
Why would you say void rays would be a good response? Has a game you played or saw led you to believe that? They do terrible against infestors, and you never see a Toss get void rays as a response to broodlords so they clearly aren't that great, according to pro players.
|
I liked this when i first saw it and have used it very well in team games. ultras are somewhat underrated in against p imho.
|
On July 07 2012 04:44 Belial88 wrote:
People stopped using void rays as a 'counter' to Zerg when zergs started to get infestors over hydras. Void rays aren't that useful lategame in ZvP due to infestors.
Why would you say void rays would be a good response? Has a game you played or saw led you to believe that? They do terrible against infestors, and you never see a Toss get void rays as a response to broodlords so they clearly aren't that great, according to pro players.
Voidrays are like the Hydra in PvZ. Very situational. And this is NOT one of those situations.
|
funny enough, axslav seems to think void rays are great lategame in conjunction with a few carriers. funny how the metagame evolves.
i haven't really been doign this ultra play, i just found it frustrated when i kept losing to toss with huge armies and not really doing much damage. toss can way too easily counter it it seems if they just play macro, ie sit back, grab fourth, templar tech, lots of zealots. there's also a coinflip involved I feel, as toss may simply go archons and zealots blindly (or maybe not blindly, whatever).
if anyone has reps of using ultras to good usage though, i'd love to see it. I've just been finding zvp really easy recently by massing spines, 5 bases really quickly, and if they do a 3+ colossus push I spam IT, that usually more than enough time (and sometimes just erases their army).
I feel like zergs have started to learn recently how awesome IT is over FG/NP. Total switch from when NP was the most important spell. FG isn't even used as much in combat as IT anymore in zvz.
|
On August 26 2012 16:34 Belial88 wrote:
funny enough, axslav seems to think void rays are great lategame in conjunction with a few carriers. funny how the metagame evolves.
i haven't really been doign this ultra play, i just found it frustrated when i kept losing to toss with huge armies and not really doing much damage. toss can way too easily counter it it seems if they just play macro, ie sit back, grab fourth, templar tech, lots of zealots. there's also a coinflip involved I feel, as toss may simply go archons and zealots blindly (or maybe not blindly, whatever).
if anyone has reps of using ultras to good usage though, i'd love to see it. I've just been finding zvp really easy recently by massing spines, 5 bases really quickly, and if they do a 3+ colossus push I spam IT, that usually more than enough time (and sometimes just erases their army).
I feel like zergs have started to learn recently how awesome IT is over FG/NP. Total switch from when NP was the most important spell. FG isn't even used as much in combat as IT anymore in zvz.
Sure, because by that time you have range (Carriers, feedback, pre-emptive storm) to counter fungal. Chain fungals at that point are risky and relies on the protoss screwing up their positioning.
|
Something I have. Something I have been playing with is fast gas. If you take 1 gas after your natural and deny scouting, you can take a 6 min lair and get broods on 4 base by 13 min.
|
On August 28 2012 11:17 abefroman wrote:
Something I have. Something I have been playing with is fast gas. If you take 1 gas after your natural and deny scouting, you can take a 6 min lair and get broods on 4 base by 13 min.
Replays please?
There are problems with a fast gas. You pretty much die to most 2 base all ins, because you sacrifice so much economy for such a fast gas. A good fast gas timing is after your /third/, not after your natural. Is a 6 minute lair with 40 drones going to help against a 7 gate +2 blink stalker all-in? Not one bit. You're better off playing standard than doing some fast gas broodlord rushes that die to pretty much every 2 base all in.
|
I can get some replays going. But you CAN get70ish supply by 8 min still, and can always get super fast roach speed or infestors for allins.
|
On August 28 2012 20:34 abefroman wrote:
I can get some replays going. But you CAN get70ish supply by 8 min still, and can always get super fast roach speed or infestors for allins.
I challenge you to get >70 supply while getting a 6min lair+infestation pit+roach warren+lingspeed
|
Ok a couPle things. First I suck and top out at 70 with standard timings. Second, I didn't say you could take a lair at 6 and still get 70. But you CAN take an early gas and use as you please with the option of getting about 70. For ME, I doubt I could top 65. I'm diamond.
The choice is 70ish supply OR 6 min lair I bElieve.
|
I just tried ultra-roach in a custom game, where the opponent skipped colossus. Worked pretty good. Totally not representative of anything, but I'll try it more often.
Ultralisks tank and deal damage while roaches just do damage.
|
On August 29 2012 04:21 AdrianHealey wrote:
I just tried ultra-roach in a custom game, where the opponent skipped colossus. Worked pretty good. Totally not representative of anything, but I'll try it more often.
Ultralisks tank and deal damage while roaches just do damage.
The funny thing is that roaches are also designed to tank damage, not deal it. Ultra/hydra synergizes okay, but nothing is as good as ultra/ling/bane with infestor support. Roaches don't synergize well. Surprised it worked, and also ultras counter colossus, or are at least decent against them.
|
On August 28 2012 21:00 Crypdos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 20:34 abefroman wrote:
I can get some replays going. But you CAN get70ish supply by 8 min still, and can always get super fast roach speed or infestors for allins. I challenge you to get >70 supply while getting a 6min lair+infestation pit+roach warren+lingspeed
opened up 15p16h16ovie
I have a bug where my game starts 10-12 seconds late and i still got 70 supply at 7:33 with a 6:00 double gas, 6:45 evo and 6:45 roach warren. Ling speed first 100 gas then lair started with 2nd 100 gas around 7:25. Roach warren is 90% complete.
Granted im only on 2 gas for the moment. 7:45 2 more gas and a 5th gas at 9:00 led to a 10:55 roach maxout on 73 drones 5 gas, +1 range attack, roach speed, ling speed 3 hatch 3 queen.
This is most ideal scenerio ofcourse where i dont have to scout or build earlygame lings vs AI (i skipped the 1 set at begining that throws off things a little, tho i delayed my 3rd hatch slightly 15 seconds.
Just saying your timings might be somewhat off
|
On August 29 2012 04:29 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:00 Crypdos wrote:On August 28 2012 20:34 abefroman wrote:
I can get some replays going. But you CAN get70ish supply by 8 min still, and can always get super fast roach speed or infestors for allins. I challenge you to get >70 supply while getting a 6min lair+infestation pit+roach warren+lingspeed opened up 15p16h16ovie I have a bug where my game starts 10-12 seconds late and i still got 70 supply at 7:33 with a 6:00 double gas, 6:45 evo and 6:45 roach warren. Ling speed first 100 gas then lair started with 2nd 100 gas around 7:25. Roach warren is 90% complete. Granted im only on 2 gas for the moment. 7:45 2 more gas and a 5th gas at 9:00 led to a 10:55 roach maxout on 73 drones 5 gas, +1 range attack, roach speed, ling speed 3 hatch 3 queen. This is most ideal scenerio ofcourse where i dont have to scout or build earlygame lings vs AI (i skipped the 1 set at begining that throws off things a little, tho i delayed my 3rd hatch slightly 15 seconds. Just saying your timings might be somewhat off
I was replying to the guy saying he got a 6min lair+infestation pit etc, while reaching 70ish supply at 8min. Your build is pretty much the "standard" 3hatch roach, except you get 5gas which is fine if you can drone like a madman. Good input nonetheless
|
On August 29 2012 04:28 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:21 AdrianHealey wrote:
I just tried ultra-roach in a custom game, where the opponent skipped colossus. Worked pretty good. Totally not representative of anything, but I'll try it more often.
Ultralisks tank and deal damage while roaches just do damage. The funny thing is that roaches are also designed to tank damage, not deal it. Ultra/hydra synergizes okay, but nothing is as good as ultra/ling/bane with infestor support. Roaches don't synergize well. Surprised it worked, and also ultras counter colossus, or are at least decent against them.
I am not sure why you would say it doesn't synergize; because both roach and ultra tank pretty well - and is relatively mobile - you have a great synergy. Ultra-hydra doesn't really leave you the option of retreating.
Ultra/ling/bane gets raped by good storms (or at least: that's my experience; but again, the level isn't worth mentioning. It's only diamond.)
There were, obviously, also zerglings into the mix in that army.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
