May 21: Spoilered the current version of the guide in preparation for re-write of said guide. Created sections: "Introduction" and "Why the Current Mass Marauder is wrong, and the Correct Late Game Composition"
May 19: Changed the colors for Terran and Protoss units in the mini section on units to Blue and Green, to match TeamLiquid's colors for them. Added sections on Ghosts and Zealots under the mini section on TvP Units.
May 15: Added some content on Vikings in the Units sub section under "Composition". Added another replay (Finally!).
May 14: Removed headline at the top asking mods to change title if appropriate. Edited some sections for missing content. Added some content under "Positioning". Edited large portions for misspelling and grammar. Added a small sub section under "Composition" detailing all the units,(Work in Progress) bumped thread appropriately.
May 8: Added 5-15 reapers to the ideal composition(against lots of zealots), as well as some information on them at the bottom of the "Composition" section. Changed the second note.
May 7: Added yoigen's replays to OP as well as a short description from me. Added a missing piece of information to the "The Engagement" section. Added notes for feedback at the top and bottom of this guide. Added a small section for those who deem TvP requires no skill from the Protoss.
May 5: Added some content to "Compositions" and "The Engagement" sections.
May 4: Re-Wrote Compositions, The Engagement, added a lot of content to Positioning, fixed spelling and grammar errors, fixed some BB code, and added Thorzain quotes. Added my go-to build to the Notes, Sources, and Assumptions section.
Introduction
I'm a masters level Terran player on AM server.
Setting up for the Late-Game
Checklist:
Keep your upgrades rolling. This includes 3-3 for Bio, attack upgrades for Vikings, and last the building upgrades.
Remember to start your third and fourth at reasonable times. You should be able to start your third at around 10:00 to 11:00 and your fourth around 14:00.
Make sure you have both your Ghost Academy and your second starport rolling at 14-15 minutes in.
Production and money. Always important, often overlooked.
A Detailed look at Composition and Infrastructure
There are a few ways to play this out, composition-wise.
First, here's the standard composition:
6-12 Ghosts. 6-10 Medivacs. 8-14 Vikings. Marines and Marauders at roughly a 1-1 ratio.
You get at least six Ghosts because it's enough that a little focus-fire from the Protoss doesn't take them out immediately while not being so many as to lower your Viking and Marauder count significantly. You get a maximum of 12 because some Ghosts will die every engagement, and you don't want to get 16+ Ghosts just to lose half of them to Colossus before hitting any Templar with EMP's.
You only get 6-10 Medivacs because they're expensive and vulnerable to feedback if you get too many and they stockpile energy.
You want at least six Vikings at all times, in case of a tech-switch to Zealot/Archon. If he has any Colossus, you want to up that count to eight, more if possible. You want about 14 Vikings tops because that's enough to one-shot Colossus with appropriate upgrades while not being so many as to kill your ground army strength.
This is supported by at most, three reactors, and then all tech labs on your barracks. You should also have two starports once you see Colossus.
Upgrades
You want 3-3 on your Bio, and to upgrade your Air weapons and then armor. After finishing 3-3 on your Bio, you also want to get Hi-Sec Auto Tracking for your planetary fortress' and missile turrets, as well as building armor for all of your buildings.
Air upgrades are useful for killing Colossus. At even or one armor upgrade behind on air versus ground, it takes seven Vikings to two-shot a Colossus and fourteen Vikings to one-shot. You can stay at +2 Air weapons for a long time, because it takes +3 armor and +3 shields before you need to get +3 weapons in order to one-shot a Colossus with 14 Vikings. Remember, though; getting Air attack will not decrease the amount of Vikings you need to one-shot a Colossus below 14.
Building armor helps your buildings survive against Zealots. Once you have it, your buildings have as much armor as fully upgraded Marines, plus the high HP of buildings. They're pretty darn good!
The range helps you shoot sooner, hit that Stalker trying to hold it's position outside of PF range while harassing your SCV's, and lets four turrets fire instead of three when a warp prism comes in and tries to warp in some DT's.
Last, if you have the money and the time, build a planetary or two in the large choke points, like this: + Show Spoiler +
This helps a ton if you lose an engagement, since it delays him until you have that extra production round of units that you need to defend his attack before it does major damage.
The Engagement
To start off, scan his army. Send your Ghosts to Snipe any lone HT's that aren't too far back, and EMP any clumps of units. Right after you fire off the initial snipes and EMP's, pull back to your Bio while stimming and running in.
Stutter step/kiting priority:
1. Clumped Bio out of Psi Storms. The technique is to simply box the group of bio getting stormed and right click it back. This is highest priority, and with good reason. If you let your Bio eat a storm, it's all going to die. Especially Marine-heavy Bio. If you dodge it though, you're in great shape especially since he can only have at most four psi storms after carpet EMP's/Snipes through flanking HT's, which are very easy to pick off with snipes or a small group of 3-6 Bio units.
2. Clumped Vikings out of Psi Storms. Basically the same as moving Bio out of psi storms. Box 'em, left click out of there. Remember to re-target the Colossus using the above technique.
3. Bio away from Chargelot/Archon. Grab a group of MM and kite. Try not to box Medivacs with that if possible.
4. Bio out of Colossus fire. If there are four or more Colossus move this up to #3 on the priority list.
After the battle, check how many units you have. If you have a lot left over, try and kill one of his expansions and then retreat to build up your army again. Remember that if you engage with one of the pieces missing, (without a large numbers advantage) ex Medivacs, then you will suffer heavy losses, unless he is also cutting out part of his composition, such as Colossus.
I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front and manage to snipe a colossus and get out. This would have delayed his push by a minute or weakened it severely if he had wanted to push. We engage at 15 minutes at his third base, I lose a lot of Marines to his Colossus, and might have lost if he had better macro and decided to push instead of expand.
Instead, we each took our fourth bases, and I poked a bit, and managed to snipe his obs, letting me have an extremely favourable engagement after a carpet-EMP. I trade very cost-effectively making up for my earlier losses, but unfortunately don't get to snipe his fourth and lose all my ghosts.
Later on I have another good engagement at my un-taken sixth base, once again getting very good EMP's off although not carpet EMP's, I manage to snipe his fifth, but I then brain-fart and leave my forces at my sixth long enough for him to find them and kill all of them except for the Vikings and a couple of Medivacs.. He pushes after that, but I hold with the vikings and Medivacs I saved from the battle as well as my PF. I build up my army again and attack his fifth and manage to snipe it, but I lose my entire army in the process in a very poor engagement. It gets really dicey for the next few minutes, but I manage to hold and get up another Marine/Ghost/Medivac/Viking army. I get up my sixth base, which he snipes, but his army becomes extremely vulnerable and I manage to get extremely good EMP's off and steamroll him with the power of the Marine.
Basically I'm trying to transition from the heavy aggressive marine/marauder/medivac style to a more passive mass ghost/viking play as soon as I can secure 8 gas geysers or earlier if I see that I can't max out on normal bio. (When he already has colossus and storm)
Note: His games go like this: 1rax FE into 1 tech lab 1 reactor barracks while teching to starport, and using the extra minerals to build a hidden CC. After he attacks with MMM at 10:00, he turtles until he has a large marine/marauder/medivac/viking/ghost force and attacks, then rebuilds again and attacks again.... At least, that's what I remember him doing from watching the replays a few days ago.
I open up 1Rax FE since I've been dying constantly to any and all Protoss all-in's and gateway based timings while going CC first. I push with two Medivacs and about 20 or so supply of MM, but fail to do any damage, and simply delay his third for a short period of time. I see that he has a lot of Chargelots and a few Templar, so I throw up a second Ebay when +2 attack is finishing up so I can have my upgrades slightly faster, as well as a ghost academy for (obviously) Ghosts. We both play very passively, I constantly scan his army, while poking and prodding until I manage to spot 0 observers above his army, and cloak and move in with ghosts and EMP/Snipe everything he has and move in with bio, regardless of his 3 colossus and my lack of vikings. I clean up his army and manage to snipe his third and retreat with some of my forces intact, and build up for another big push while making a number of macro Orbitals, sacrificing SCV's, and building some PF's in chokes. I screw up on this and miss some chokes/get up the PF's really late, but it doesn't really matter since he hasn't attacked all game long. I get max with more thank 16 vikings, and snipe his badly/boldly placed observer, and cloak, mass EMP, and then stim and run in for the win. He doesn't GG.
Please for the love of god include putting turrets at every base for dts, and saccing scvs when you get 7+ orbitals so you can be like 40 food up in the fight. Thats like essential stuff :/
On May 05 2012 09:16 Genome852 wrote: So basically this is just standard but with the mention of how important ship upgrades are?
Umm...... well, if this is already standard to you.
On May 05 2012 09:14 Picklebread wrote: Please for the love of god include putting turrets at every base for dts, and saccing scvs when you get 7+ orbitals so you can be like 40 food up in the fight. Thats like essential stuff :/
T___T I totally forgot that when reading in in preview. Editing now. Edited.
Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the usefulness in this guide. Presumably it answers the question "how should I play late game TvP?" but it doesn't say much about taking additional bases, denying bases, or specifics about the composition. It seems to assume that protoss will have roughly even splits on gas in terms of colossus/templar/archon, and therefore terran should get x vikings and x ghosts. The army looks extremely micro intensive to me; 15 ghosts are suppose to kill/disable every ht, because the army is ridiculously marine intensive don't you think?
I feel like the steps to micro aren't really thread worthy, it's basically saying: use the ghosts to kill off templar and deal damage with emp, use the vikings to kill the colossus, and use your bio with stim to kill what's left over.
Also, 1 replay really isn't enough, there are so many ways to get there that a late game focused guide should really deal with minimum of 5 games.
The guide basically boils down to: get upgrades, get a lot of ghosts. Where's the meat?
Is there a good micro trainer for protoss deathball and zealot/arconte?
I've tried darglein's but it's very buggy for me: the ball hits too fast(even when you increase time), you cant cloak your ghosts, and it has immortals which arent used.
Also, I had a friend practice MMMV vs broodlord infestor micro with me on a "unit tester" map, but that means he has to be online and willing. I want a good trainer that I can just grind on. Anyone know any?
On May 05 2012 10:05 phiinix wrote: Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the usefulness in this guide. Presumably it answers the question "how should I play late game TvP?" but it doesn't say much about taking additional bases, denying bases, or specifics about the composition. It seems to assume that protoss will have roughly even splits on gas in terms of colossus/templar/archon, and therefore terran should get x vikings and x ghosts. The army looks extremely micro intensive to me; 15 ghosts are suppose to kill/disable every ht, because the army is ridiculously marine intensive don't you think?
I feel like the steps to micro aren't really thread worthy, it's basically saying: use the ghosts to kill off templar and deal damage with emp, use the vikings to kill the colossus, and use your bio with stim to kill what's left over.
Also, 1 replay really isn't enough, there are so many ways to get there that a late game focused guide should really deal with minimum of 5 games.
The guide basically boils down to: get upgrades, get a lot of ghosts. Where's the meat?
Crap, I must really fail at making guides releasing the guide in readable condition. :|
Yeah, I know one replay isn't nearly enough. I need to add more, but I also want to make sure it's not a huge fail from the other guy and both me and my opponent actually played well. I should have waited and made this a much better guide. I tried to cover too much so no real content.
On May 05 2012 10:11 Snoodles wrote: Is there a good micro trainer for protoss deathball and zealot/arconte?
I've tried darglein's but it's very buggy for me: the ball hits too fast(even when you increase time), you cant cloak your ghosts, and it has immortals which arent used.
Also, I had a friend practice MMMV vs broodlord infestor micro with me on a "unit tester" map, but that means he has to be online and willing. I want a good trainer that I can just grind on. Anyone know any?
There isn't really a good micro trainer. The best I can offer you is to go into Unit Tester Online with a friend who plays protoss, and practice your micro against his deathball over and over.
On May 05 2012 10:05 phiinix wrote: Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the usefulness in this guide. Presumably it answers the question "how should I play late game TvP?" but it doesn't say much about taking additional bases, denying bases, or specifics about the composition. It seems to assume that protoss will have roughly even splits on gas in terms of colossus/templar/archon, and therefore terran should get x vikings and x ghosts. The army looks extremely micro intensive to me; 15 ghosts are suppose to kill/disable every ht, because the army is ridiculously marine intensive don't you think?
I feel like the steps to micro aren't really thread worthy, it's basically saying: use the ghosts to kill off templar and deal damage with emp, use the vikings to kill the colossus, and use your bio with stim to kill what's left over.
Also, 1 replay really isn't enough, there are so many ways to get there that a late game focused guide should really deal with minimum of 5 games.
The guide basically boils down to: get upgrades, get a lot of ghosts. Where's the meat?
Crap, I must really fail at making guides releasing the guide in readable condition. :|
Yeah, I know one replay isn't nearly enough. I need to add more, but I also want to make sure it's not a huge fail from the other guy and both me and my opponent actually played well. I should have waited and made this a much better guide. I tried to cover too much so no real content.
OK, I've updated the OP with much, much more content. It's still a work in progress, but it's a heck of a lot better than what it was before.
On May 05 2012 09:14 Picklebread wrote: Please for the love of god include putting turrets at every base for dts, and saccing scvs when you get 7+ orbitals so you can be like 40 food up in the fight. Thats like essential stuff :/
He put a link with Throzain comment as pretty important, and the swede indeed talk about that.
On May 05 2012 09:14 Picklebread wrote: Please for the love of god include putting turrets at every base for dts, and saccing scvs when you get 7+ orbitals so you can be like 40 food up in the fight. Thats like essential stuff :/
He put a link with Throzain comment as pretty important, and the swede indeed talk about that.
When I first posted the guide I failed epically, and basically re-wrote all the content in the subsequent hour. He was right at the time.
The OP might enjoy the following game where Happy beats one of the best PvT players in the world with a similar style:
The OP suggests marine heavy, marauder light, ghost heavy, while Happy goes ghost heavy, marine light, marauder light.
The only 2 players who use close to this style include Happy and Thorzain. Major used to kinda do it, but I have seen anything from him in a while.
You might also want to include disadvantages of this style. You can't apply much pressure onto toss throughout the whole game and it's not as micro based.
On May 05 2012 13:30 NrGmonk wrote: The OP might enjoy the following game where Happy beats one of the best PvT players in the world with a similar style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0ggYkHVvM&feature=plcp The OP suggests marine heavy, marauder light, ghost heavy, while Happy goes ghost heavy, marine light, marauder light.
The only 2 players who use close to this style include Happy and Thorzain. Major used to kinda do it, but I have seen anything from him in a while.
You might also want to include disadvantages of this style. You can't apply much pressure onto toss throughout the whole game and it's not as micro based.
I recommend going for "marine heavy, marauder light, ghost heavy" in the late-game. In the mid-game I recommend getting 3 techlab barracks and 2 reactor barracks if you think he's going for Colossus, or 2 techlab barracks and 3 reactor barracks if he's going for Templar. Either one allows for plenty of Marauders to be aggressive with, and Marine heavy is actually more micro-intensive than Marauder heavy in the mid-game since you have so much more potential for stutter step DPS. I'm surprised you missed that.
Thanks for the game, too of course! :D I'm going to have to watch it tomorrow though. I need to go to bed really badly, otherwise I won't be able to get up early enough tomorrow.
On May 05 2012 13:35 Fencer710 wrote: I recommend going for "marine heavy, marauder light, ghost heavy" in the late-game. In the mid-game I recommend getting 3 techlab barracks and 2 reactor barracks if you think he's going for Colossus, or 2 techlab barracks and 3 reactor barracks if he's going for Templar. Either one allows for plenty of Marauders to be aggressive with, and Marine heavy is actually more micro-intensive than Marauder heavy in the mid-game since you have so much more potential for stutter step DPS. I'm surprised you missed that.
Thanks for the game, too of course! :D I'm going to have to watch it tomorrow though. I need to go to bed really badly, otherwise I won't be able to get up early enough tomorrow.
Nono, I was comparing your style of early upgrades and earlier, more late game ghosts to a standard korean style of faster medivacs and pressure/multitask based play into later upgrades and later ghosts. Wasn't comparing your style to happy's style.
On May 05 2012 13:35 Fencer710 wrote: I recommend going for "marine heavy, marauder light, ghost heavy" in the late-game. In the mid-game I recommend getting 3 techlab barracks and 2 reactor barracks if you think he's going for Colossus, or 2 techlab barracks and 3 reactor barracks if he's going for Templar. Either one allows for plenty of Marauders to be aggressive with, and Marine heavy is actually more micro-intensive than Marauder heavy in the mid-game since you have so much more potential for stutter step DPS. I'm surprised you missed that.
Thanks for the game, too of course! :D I'm going to have to watch it tomorrow though. I need to go to bed really badly, otherwise I won't be able to get up early enough tomorrow.
Nono, I was comparing your style of early upgrades and earlier, more late game ghosts to a standard korean style of faster medivacs and pressure/multitask based play into later upgrades and later ghosts. Wasn't comparing your style to happy's style.
Oh. I didn't realize, since I didn't see anything in your post talking about that besides the very slight hint that I just now see. Also I don't exactly go early upgrades. I finish +1 attack at 11-12 minutes, and only add a second ebay(Edit: after +1 is finished) if I'm sure he's going templar tech, in which case faster armor is extremely helpful against his charge lots.
Edit: I realized that the build I use in the majority of my TvP's is not obvious enough, so I've added it to Notes.
You forgot to mention that ghost only take 2 supply, making them one of the best units when maxed. Often terran armies will be more expensive (and stronger) when maxed if terran was smart enough to make 10+ ghosts (15 or so). Small tips you might add: scan and kill obs with vikings; your ghosts have free range now.
On May 05 2012 10:05 phiinix wrote: Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the usefulness in this guide. Presumably it answers the question "how should I play late game TvP?" but it doesn't say much about taking additional bases, denying bases, or specifics about the composition. It seems to assume that protoss will have roughly even splits on gas in terms of colossus/templar/archon, and therefore terran should get x vikings and x ghosts. The army looks extremely micro intensive to me; 15 ghosts are suppose to kill/disable every ht, because the army is ridiculously marine intensive don't you think?
I feel like the steps to micro aren't really thread worthy, it's basically saying: use the ghosts to kill off templar and deal damage with emp, use the vikings to kill the colossus, and use your bio with stim to kill what's left over.
Also, 1 replay really isn't enough, there are so many ways to get there that a late game focused guide should really deal with minimum of 5 games.
The guide basically boils down to: get upgrades, get a lot of ghosts. Where's the meat?
Crap, I must really fail at making guides releasing the guide in readable condition. :|
Yeah, I know one replay isn't nearly enough. I need to add more, but I also want to make sure it's not a huge fail from the other guy and both me and my opponent actually played well. I should have waited and made this a much better guide. I tried to cover too much so no real content.
I actually posted these replays in another thread about TvP, which shortly after got closed. I use the mass ghost/viking composition in those games.
On May 05 2012 22:49 AA.spoon wrote: You forgot to mention that ghost only take 2 supply, making them one of the best units when maxed. Often terran armies will be more expensive (and stronger) when maxed if terran was smart enough to make 10+ ghosts (15 or so). Small tips you might add: scan and kill obs with vikings; your ghosts have free range now.
I do note that it is ideal to have 15+ ghosts in the Composition section. I have the other tips in the Engagement section, but I forgot to add that little point. >< Editing now. Edited. Edit: I forgot to add that I edited the Ghost description in the "Compositions" section.
Wow the game with Happy was just awesome^^. I think heaving a lot of cloked ghosts and killing the observers is really powerfull. Regarding this i have got a question. Does my opponent see my ghosts, when i scan on top of them ?
On May 05 2012 21:36 ArchAngelSC wrote: From what I understand about your guide, you seem to say that stutter stepping vs chargelots isn't that big of a deal? Not sure I agree with that.
The rest seems like pretty solid advice, though pretty standard
There is no point in kiting chargelots after charge buff, they are gonna hit you anyway, so why would you waste time, APM and DPS on kiting? Also stutter stepping a maxed out army fucks up your concave so units in the back (in that case marines, who are the main DPS) aren't dealing the biggest possible damage. Sure, after charge is on CD there is nothing wrong with kiting but by this time most zelots are dead, or at least should be. I guess microing ghosts is more important then focusing on kiting against chargelots. Obviously it only applies to late game, not mid game, gateway-heavy army.
On May 06 2012 05:03 Sianos wrote: Wow the game with Happy was just awesome^^. I think heaving a lot of cloked ghosts and killing the observers is really powerfull. Regarding this i have got a question. Does my opponent see my ghosts, when i scan on top of them ?
On May 06 2012 11:08 ellaguru wrote: i think there was a lot of useful information here for non-masters players.
the number of tech labs and reactors, the ratios of terran versus protoss units, the micro priority, the mass ghosts strategy
Most master and grandmaster foreigners don't know these things, and instead go for 4-5 ghosts, 'enough' vikings, and mass marauder/medivac with only a couple of marines.
i found this really helpful actually! as a high diamond working towards masters, army comp and micro priority part was quite informative. thanks for the guide!
On May 05 2012 10:05 phiinix wrote: Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the usefulness in this guide. Presumably it answers the question "how should I play late game TvP?" but it doesn't say much about taking additional bases, denying bases, or specifics about the composition. It seems to assume that protoss will have roughly even splits on gas in terms of colossus/templar/archon, and therefore terran should get x vikings and x ghosts. The army looks extremely micro intensive to me; 15 ghosts are suppose to kill/disable every ht, because the army is ridiculously marine intensive don't you think?
I feel like the steps to micro aren't really thread worthy, it's basically saying: use the ghosts to kill off templar and deal damage with emp, use the vikings to kill the colossus, and use your bio with stim to kill what's left over.
Also, 1 replay really isn't enough, there are so many ways to get there that a late game focused guide should really deal with minimum of 5 games.
The guide basically boils down to: get upgrades, get a lot of ghosts. Where's the meat?
Crap, I must really fail at making guides releasing the guide in readable condition. :|
Yeah, I know one replay isn't nearly enough. I need to add more, but I also want to make sure it's not a huge fail from the other guy and both me and my opponent actually played well. I should have waited and made this a much better guide. I tried to cover too much so no real content.
I actually posted these replays in another thread about TvP, which shortly after got closed. I use the mass ghost/viking composition in those games.
On May 05 2012 10:05 phiinix wrote: Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the usefulness in this guide. Presumably it answers the question "how should I play late game TvP?" but it doesn't say much about taking additional bases, denying bases, or specifics about the composition. It seems to assume that protoss will have roughly even splits on gas in terms of colossus/templar/archon, and therefore terran should get x vikings and x ghosts. The army looks extremely micro intensive to me; 15 ghosts are suppose to kill/disable every ht, because the army is ridiculously marine intensive don't you think?
I feel like the steps to micro aren't really thread worthy, it's basically saying: use the ghosts to kill off templar and deal damage with emp, use the vikings to kill the colossus, and use your bio with stim to kill what's left over.
Also, 1 replay really isn't enough, there are so many ways to get there that a late game focused guide should really deal with minimum of 5 games.
The guide basically boils down to: get upgrades, get a lot of ghosts. Where's the meat?
Crap, I must really fail at making guides releasing the guide in readable condition. :|
Yeah, I know one replay isn't nearly enough. I need to add more, but I also want to make sure it's not a huge fail from the other guy and both me and my opponent actually played well. I should have waited and made this a much better guide. I tried to cover too much so no real content.
I actually posted these replays in another thread about TvP, which shortly after got closed. I use the mass ghost/viking composition in those games.
I finally got around to watching these. Nice games!
Would you mind adding a description for each so I can add them to the OP? I'm still not good at the game yet compared to a lot of people, so I'd love to see your thought process behind the games.
On May 05 2012 13:30 NrGmonk wrote: The OP might enjoy the following game where Happy beats one of the best PvT players in the world with a similar style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0ggYkHVvM&feature=plcp The OP suggests marine heavy, marauder light, ghost heavy, while Happy goes ghost heavy, marine light, marauder light.
The only 2 players who use close to this style include Happy and Thorzain. Major used to kinda do it, but I have seen anything from him in a while.
You might also want to include disadvantages of this style. You can't apply much pressure onto toss throughout the whole game and it's not as micro based.
OK, I finally got to watch it since chrome apparently doesn't like youtube for some reason. ><
This style Happy did in that game reminds me a lot of the old mass Tank/Ghost in TvZ back before the Snipe nerf. (Which is still completely stupid, IMO.) It crushes through big engagements so hard, and you can be on less bases but Marines, Ghosts, macro Orbitals and bunkers are so good that it doesn't even matter that much.
On May 06 2012 11:08 ellaguru wrote: i think there was a lot of useful information here for non-masters players.
the number of tech labs and reactors, the ratios of terran versus protoss units, the micro priority, the mass ghosts strategy
Glad I helped. ^_^
In other news, in today's Day9 Daily, the final game is completely screwed up composition-wise from MKP. If he had made more Marines, Ghosts, Medivacs, and Vikings instead of basically Mass Marauder, he could have won, but instead he went for said mass marauder and lost to storms and colossus.
On May 05 2012 10:05 phiinix wrote: Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the usefulness in this guide. Presumably it answers the question "how should I play late game TvP?" but it doesn't say much about taking additional bases, denying bases, or specifics about the composition. It seems to assume that protoss will have roughly even splits on gas in terms of colossus/templar/archon, and therefore terran should get x vikings and x ghosts. The army looks extremely micro intensive to me; 15 ghosts are suppose to kill/disable every ht, because the army is ridiculously marine intensive don't you think?
I feel like the steps to micro aren't really thread worthy, it's basically saying: use the ghosts to kill off templar and deal damage with emp, use the vikings to kill the colossus, and use your bio with stim to kill what's left over.
Also, 1 replay really isn't enough, there are so many ways to get there that a late game focused guide should really deal with minimum of 5 games.
The guide basically boils down to: get upgrades, get a lot of ghosts. Where's the meat?
Crap, I must really fail at making guides releasing the guide in readable condition. :|
Yeah, I know one replay isn't nearly enough. I need to add more, but I also want to make sure it's not a huge fail from the other guy and both me and my opponent actually played well. I should have waited and made this a much better guide. I tried to cover too much so no real content.
I actually posted these replays in another thread about TvP, which shortly after got closed. I use the mass ghost/viking composition in those games.
I finally got around to watching these. Nice games!
Would you mind adding a description for each so I can add them to the OP? I'm still not good at the game yet compared to a lot of people, so I'd love to see your thought process behind the games.
Basically I'm trying to transition from the heavy aggressive marine/marauder/medivac style to a more passive mass ghost/viking play as soon as I can secure 8 gas geysers or earlier if I see that I can't max out on normal bio. (When he already has colossus and storm)
On May 05 2012 10:05 phiinix wrote: Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the usefulness in this guide. Presumably it answers the question "how should I play late game TvP?" but it doesn't say much about taking additional bases, denying bases, or specifics about the composition. It seems to assume that protoss will have roughly even splits on gas in terms of colossus/templar/archon, and therefore terran should get x vikings and x ghosts. The army looks extremely micro intensive to me; 15 ghosts are suppose to kill/disable every ht, because the army is ridiculously marine intensive don't you think?
I feel like the steps to micro aren't really thread worthy, it's basically saying: use the ghosts to kill off templar and deal damage with emp, use the vikings to kill the colossus, and use your bio with stim to kill what's left over.
Also, 1 replay really isn't enough, there are so many ways to get there that a late game focused guide should really deal with minimum of 5 games.
The guide basically boils down to: get upgrades, get a lot of ghosts. Where's the meat?
Crap, I must really fail at making guides releasing the guide in readable condition. :|
Yeah, I know one replay isn't nearly enough. I need to add more, but I also want to make sure it's not a huge fail from the other guy and both me and my opponent actually played well. I should have waited and made this a much better guide. I tried to cover too much so no real content.
I actually posted these replays in another thread about TvP, which shortly after got closed. I use the mass ghost/viking composition in those games.
I finally got around to watching these. Nice games!
Would you mind adding a description for each so I can add them to the OP? I'm still not good at the game yet compared to a lot of people, so I'd love to see your thought process behind the games.
Basically I'm trying to transition from the heavy aggressive marine/marauder/medivac style to a more passive mass ghost/viking play as soon as I can secure 8 gas geysers or earlier if I see that I can't max out on normal bio. (When he already has colossus and storm)
OK, I'll add them and quote that in the OP.
Does anyone have thoughts on Nukes? I haven't added anything related to them to the OP because I don't really know how to use them that well, and are basically the last thing on my mind whenever I play.
Ughhhh. Good read but I am so disgusted at the facts that Terran needs extremely high APM to deal with late game Protoss. 3 Hotkeys compared to Protoss's one or maybe two? Also with the zealots? Disgusting. T v P is annoying as shit
On May 08 2012 09:25 Dontkillme wrote: Ughhhh. Good read but I am so disgusted at the facts that Terran needs extremely high APM to deal with late game Protoss. 3 Hotkeys compared to Protoss's one or maybe two? Also with the zealots? Disgusting. T v P is annoying as shit
True, but in BoX's you have the advantage with hard-to-scout cheese plus an advantage in super-late-game situations with PF's, Nukes, and macro Orbitals. I also often have less APM than my opponent during games, according to SC2 Gears.
By the way, engagements against a Protoss death ball are actually easier than dealing with Ultra/Bling/Infestor IMO. It's just less forgiving if you lose a fight and have no defensive PF's to fall back to.
On May 08 2012 09:38 Snoodles wrote: Fencer, since you're on a roll can you tell us your approach to fighting infestor brood lords? Do you use ghosts vs Zerg?
That would be a different topic entirely, but my view on it (and Day9's) is that Infestor/Broodlord is so immobile that a pair of double drops (four medivacs total, and a combination of MM inside them) to snipe drones and expansions to keep him from re-maxing is the first key, and the second is to get a large concave with viking/thor/unsieged tank/marine/medivac, while focus firing brood lords with the Thors. Then you just have to defend the reinforcing ling/bane.
Polt did something like this and Day9 showed it in one of his dailies.
On May 08 2012 09:46 Alejandrisha wrote: i will gladly put on a lategame tvp clinic against the strat forum's very own NrGmonk to demonstrate scan + ghost abuse after 5+ orbitals
I've updated the OP with a small sub-section detailing the units. It's a work in progress, and I plan to have detailed descriptions of all the units in it. I currently have short ones of the Marine, Marauder, and the Medivac.
I like the idea of adding reapers to my army comp but it kind of sucks that if you have reapers in the same control group as MMM you are not able to use the stim hotkey. I already have problems controlling the MMMVG composition flawlessly (because anything less than flawless will get you disintegrated in 2sec.) so I am not really keen on having to make a fourth control group for reapers but that may not be necessary. Overall its a nice guide to introduce new terrrans to the TvP match up and with some more detail it could be an excellent guide.
On May 15 2012 20:00 derpinator wrote: I like the idea of adding reapers to my army comp but it kind of sucks that if you have reapers in the same control group as MMM you are not able to use the stim hotkey. I already have problems controlling the MMMVG composition flawlessly (because anything less than flawless will get you disintegrated in 2sec.) so I am not really keen on having to make a fourth control group for reapers but that may not be necessary. Overall its a nice guide to introduce new terrrans to the TvP match up and with some more detail it could be an excellent guide.
I'm not sure how Reapers in your control group make it so you have to tab in order to stim? I'll test it later and see what happens.
You need control comparable to how well the Protoss is also micro-ing. He is:
Splitting his HT's, possibly sentries. Keeping his units in a concave, if he doesn't his army will get EMP'd hard, and then you can simply 1at to victory. Warping in units and structures at the same time. Blinking Stalkers and focus firing your Vikings.
I know it sounds silly but I really feel like a lowered reaper build time could help alleviate a lot of lategame TvP issues... picking off those "flanking HT" Taking out proxy pylons... kiting/kill zealots... reinforcement speed... harassing without the need to load/unload a medivac... Just saying now that the reaper speed tech requires a factory and a barracks requires a depot, I don't think a 30second reaper build time would be as imba as it once was.
On May 16 2012 04:41 spbelky wrote: I know it sounds silly but I really feel like a lowered reaper build time could help alleviate a lot of lategame TvP issues... picking off those "flanking HT" Taking out proxy pylons... kiting/kill zealots... reinforcement speed... harassing without the need to load/unload a medivac... Just saying now that the reaper speed tech requires a factory and a barracks requires a depot, I don't think a 30second reaper build time would be as imba as it once was.
2c
A 30 second build time would be ideal for late-game, although that would probably incite balance issues in the early game. I think taking it slowly with no knee-jerk nerfs *cough* snipe *cough* would be better, say, 5 second buffs at a time.
I've also updated the OP with another replay (Finally!). I've been dying constantly to various protoss all-in's lately, so not many toss late-game replays.
EDIT: I have an idea: Let the Reaper Speed upgrade cut 5-10 seconds off of the Reaper build time as well.
First, your guide seems to be all over the place. I think your main purpose is to talk about late game TvP, what comp you should get and how to engage/position. However, you talk a lot about early game and mid game PvT like what opening you personally use and how to react in midgame, which is totally irrelevant to your guide. I would cut this part out entirely as it would confuse most people
You need more examples, preferably vods or replays of pro games playing lategame like how you describe.
Nothing you say is backed up by much evidence. For example, why do I want 1 marauder per stalker? Why exactly 3 vikings per colossi? Why exactly 15 ghosts?
Play devil's advocate. Why aren't people playing late game TvP like you suggest?
Basically if you're writing a guide that sort of goes against what people are doing at the moment, you have to make a good structured argument that convinces people your way of thinking is valid. Do this by providing tons of evidence and linking everything together with sound logic.
When you quote Thorzain, use bbcode instead of "Thorzain says 'asdfasdf' ". It just looks better.
On May 19 2012 15:06 NrGmonk wrote: Ok I'll give you some feedback:
First, your guide seems to be all over the place. I think your main purpose is to talk about late game TvP, what comp you should get and how to engage/position. However, you talk a lot about early game and mid game PvT like what opening you personally use and how to react in midgame, which is totally irrelevant to your guide. I would cut this part out entirely as it would confuse most people
You need more examples, preferably vods or replays of pro games playing lategame like how you describe.
Nothing you say is backed up by much evidence. For example, why do I want 1 marauder per stalker? Why exactly 3 vikings per colossi? Why exactly 15 ghosts?
Play devil's advocate. Why aren't people playing late game TvP like you suggest?
Basically if you're writing a guide that sort of goes against what people are doing at the moment, you have to make a good structured argument that convinces people your way of thinking is valid. Do this by providing tons of evidence and linking everything together with sound logic.
When you quote Thorzain, use bbcode instead of "Thorzain says 'asdfasdf' ". It just looks better.
Have fun.
OK, I'll get to work on that.... Tomorrow. What you're suggesting would basically have me re-write the entire guide.
Also, how you transition out of the 3 Barracks timing directly affects how you transition into the late game, so I'm still going to have some content on that.
On May 19 2012 15:06 NrGmonk wrote: Ok I'll give you some feedback:
First, your guide seems to be all over the place. I think your main purpose is to talk about late game TvP, what comp you should get and how to engage/position. However, you talk a lot about early game and mid game PvT like what opening you personally use and how to react in midgame, which is totally irrelevant to your guide. I would cut this part out entirely as it would confuse most people
You need more examples, preferably vods or replays of pro games playing lategame like how you describe.
Nothing you say is backed up by much evidence. For example, why do I want 1 marauder per stalker? Why exactly 3 vikings per colossi? Why exactly 15 ghosts?
Play devil's advocate. Why aren't people playing late game TvP like you suggest?
Basically if you're writing a guide that sort of goes against what people are doing at the moment, you have to make a good structured argument that convinces people your way of thinking is valid. Do this by providing tons of evidence and linking everything together with sound logic.
When you quote Thorzain, use bbcode instead of "Thorzain says 'asdfasdf' ". It just looks better.
Have fun.
OK, I'll get to work on that.... Tomorrow. What you're suggesting would basically have me re-write the entire guide.
Also, how you transition out of the 3 Barracks timing directly affects how you transition into the late game, so I'm still going to have some content on that.
Good guides focus on one topic, in your case Late game TvP. Anything else just distracts people. Although 1 rax cc into 3 rax starport is the most common TvP build, there are tons more ways to get to late game. 1 rax 3 cc, banshee opening into 3 cc, 1 rax cc into banshe/tank into 3rd, 1 rax cc into 4 rax no gas into fast 3rd, etc.... I could go on but you get my point.
On May 19 2012 15:06 NrGmonk wrote: Ok I'll give you some feedback:
First, your guide seems to be all over the place. I think your main purpose is to talk about late game TvP, what comp you should get and how to engage/position. However, you talk a lot about early game and mid game PvT like what opening you personally use and how to react in midgame, which is totally irrelevant to your guide. I would cut this part out entirely as it would confuse most people
You need more examples, preferably vods or replays of pro games playing lategame like how you describe.
Nothing you say is backed up by much evidence. For example, why do I want 1 marauder per stalker? Why exactly 3 vikings per colossi? Why exactly 15 ghosts?
Play devil's advocate. Why aren't people playing late game TvP like you suggest?
Basically if you're writing a guide that sort of goes against what people are doing at the moment, you have to make a good structured argument that convinces people your way of thinking is valid. Do this by providing tons of evidence and linking everything together with sound logic.
When you quote Thorzain, use bbcode instead of "Thorzain says 'asdfasdf' ". It just looks better.
Have fun.
OK, I'll get to work on that.... Tomorrow. What you're suggesting would basically have me re-write the entire guide.
Also, how you transition out of the 3 Barracks timing directly affects how you transition into the late game, so I'm still going to have some content on that.
Good guides focus on one topic, in your case Late game TvP. Anything else just distracts people. Although 1 rax cc into 3 rax starport is the most common TvP build, there are tons more ways to get to late game. 1 rax 3 cc, banshee opening into 3 cc, 1 rax cc into banshe/tank into 3rd, 1 rax cc into 4 rax no gas into fast 3rd, etc.... I could go on but you get my point.
Yeah. I'm just going to say that you should be getting Reactors>Techlabs at roughly a 2-1 ratio with a maximum of four Techlabbed Barracks until you get into a super-lategame scenario where you're maxed for an extended period of time, have a ton of cash, and as a result need to make 5 or more Ghosts/Marauders at a time, or something similar.
On May 05 2012 09:10 Fencer710 wrote: To those who say "Well, why not build hellions instead?":+ Show Spoiler +
Quoting myself from another thread:
Hellion disadvantages:
They sprint ahead of your army and die immediately if you don't babysit them. They die to any amount of damage from any Protoss unit, since they don't share upgrades with Bio. They do a grand total of 15 damage per Zealot they hit with each shot with BF without weapon upgrades on the Zealot' HP. Their DPS is incredibly dependant on being in a choke or there being a ton of Zealots in a row. Requires more APM to make, since you have to get BF upgrade, and then switch the factory onto a reactor in order to make a non-zero amount of Hellions.
Advantages of Hellions:
Slightly more DPS than Marines and Marauders against Zealots if they have BF upgrade.
Disadvantages of Reapers:
Takes a long time to build. May get slightly ahead of your army, and die a little too quickly.
Advantages of Reapers:
Can be built from techlab Barracks. Does extremely high DPS against Zealots for supply. Has 5 more HP than a Marine, does not need to stim, so better in drawn out engagements. Shares upgrades with Marine, Marauder, and Ghost. Provides a viable army unit gas-dump.
Thank you for not advocating blue flame hellions. Us protoss players are relieved... But seriously, your description of advantages and disadvantages of both is biased and from what i've seen playing both Protoss and Terran, they're far more usefull and better in combat. Also i have no idea how do you have free gas while making mass ghosts, that's why dumping minerals in hellions instead of marines works better in my opinion and knowledge. The ONLY disadvantage that is legit is the upgrades, which you could utilize for tanks aswell. And hellion dps is not dependant on being in a choke. Make 20 hellions vs 20 zealots (same cost) and force a charge, then kite - see what happens... 0-0 BF hellions should kill 3-0-3 chargelots with like 16 left. That is if they fight alone, and you're obviously kiting them towards your army and protoss units can't keep up with chargelots. And if you chose to upgrade hellions/tanks aswell, then even with A-move and zealots getting surround hellions win.
On May 05 2012 09:10 Fencer710 wrote: To those who say "Well, why not build hellions instead?":+ Show Spoiler +
Quoting myself from another thread:
Hellion disadvantages:
They sprint ahead of your army and die immediately if you don't babysit them. They die to any amount of damage from any Protoss unit, since they don't share upgrades with Bio. They do a grand total of 15 damage per Zealot they hit with each shot with BF without weapon upgrades on the Zealot' HP. Their DPS is incredibly dependant on being in a choke or there being a ton of Zealots in a row. Requires more APM to make, since you have to get BF upgrade, and then switch the factory onto a reactor in order to make a non-zero amount of Hellions.
Advantages of Hellions:
Slightly more DPS than Marines and Marauders against Zealots if they have BF upgrade.
Disadvantages of Reapers:
Takes a long time to build. May get slightly ahead of your army, and die a little too quickly.
Advantages of Reapers:
Can be built from techlab Barracks. Does extremely high DPS against Zealots for supply. Has 5 more HP than a Marine, does not need to stim, so better in drawn out engagements. Shares upgrades with Marine, Marauder, and Ghost. Provides a viable army unit gas-dump.
Thank you for not advocating blue flame hellions. Us protoss players are relieved... But seriously, your description of advantages and disadvantages of both is biased and from what i've seen playing both Protoss and Terran, they're far more usefull and better in combat. Also i have no idea how do you have free gas while making mass ghosts, that's why dumping minerals in hellions instead of marines works better in my opinion and knowledge. The ONLY disadvantage that is legit is the upgrades, which you could utilize for tanks aswell. And hellion dps is not dependant on being in a choke. Make 20 hellions vs 20 zealots (same cost) and force a charge, then kite - see what happens... 0-0 BF hellions should kill 3-0-3 chargelots with like 16 left. That is if they fight alone, and you're obviously kiting them towards your army and protoss units can't keep up with chargelots. And if you chose to upgrade hellions/tanks aswell, then even with A-move and zealots getting surround hellions win.
The thing is they take even more APM from a Terran player, which is something in very, very short supply. Also, the only time you would add either unit to your army is in a super-late-game situation, as straight up Bio is just plain better in 99% of circumstances.
That's also another problem with fighting in a vacuum: It doesn't apply to real-game situations at all. You can actually cancel a charge with a right click, for example, and just have your Zealots stay in a 'safe zone' around your Colossus. If you add to your vacuum scenario even 4-5 BlinkStalkers, the Hellions die. If you add 3-4 Marauders and a Medivac, the Hellions will still get to kill most of the Zealots, but the Marauders will all die and the Medivac, as well, due to the fact that Hellions are faster than the Bio army, so they lead the Chargelots into your Bio, and then they make a concave so it's hard for your Hellions to get any good shots off.
Siege Tanks are too immobile, period. There's just no way you can use them effectively. Ghost EMP's and Vikings are just plain better, for cost and supply. You can't punish a Protoss' mistakes if you have immobile Siege Tanks as part of your army. Siege Tanks actually work against you if you try to add them to your composition, since they do friendly fire damage to your own troops if you don't constantly kite, and if you do, the Siege Tanks get left for dead and melt to Colossus and Zealots.
Last, you actually do have a surplus of gas in the very late-game. Ghosts and Vikings, the most gas-intensive combat units, cost minerals and gas at a 2-1 ratio. The most gas-intensive unit that is made in most games for Terran is the Medivac at 100/100(Raven too, but you only see those when a Terran goes 1-1-1, or wants a mobile detector), and you want 12 Medivacs at most, but even that is pushing your army supply.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vNLuQ.jpg)
