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On May 04 2012 04:50 JaKaTaK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sentry
Hallucinate Phoenix is QW (faster and more reliable that QQ) When reaching for the Q key, your ring finger naturally moves to the W key, making QW the most efficient and comfortable choice.
High Templar
S for Feedback (single target)
W for Storm (area of effect)
Q for Archon (morph)
I think having feedback on S and Q on warp archon is much better. It is harder to accidentally hit Q than S or W and accidentally selecting the feedback or storm command is no problem as it requires an additional click to cast, while accidentally morphing 2 or more full energy high templar can be game changing. I am changing it and updating the file/credits.
Ghost
S = Snipe (single target)
W = EMP (area of effect)
Q = Nuke (special)
Raven
I am not convinced that PDD is a more pressed command than Auto-Turret. It might be at the pro level in the current meta game, but Auto-Turret costs 50 energy while PDD costs 100, so there will be more situations where you need something to give you an edge but only have 75 energy on the raven and can't wait for 25 more to drop the PDD. Also, PDD only works on units with ranged projectile attacks. Auto-Turret can help sway the tide of a battle against any enemy unit and even harass worker lines, or cut off reinforcements. I feel that Auto-Turret is more versatile and has more opportunities for use on average than PDD. What is your position on this? Q for Seeker Missile for sure tho.
Infestor
The Infested Terran spell is often used with shift, whereas the fungal growth spell never uses shift. Shift S is faster than Shift W. Infested Terran gets S, Fungal gets W. (this is why W is AoE and not S)
Completely agree with the Single/AoE target setup rather than the Primary/Secondary. In regards to the Raven, PDD definitely sees more use although as you said Auto-Turrets are more versatile. People build Ravens because of PDD not Auto-Turret, and unless there's no longer a reason to use PDD (e.g you killed all the Stalkers in a Zealot Colossi PvT composition; you won a big Viking vs Viking battle and have superior air control) you'll be keeping the Raven with your main army/saving energy for when it is needed. As a damage dealer Auto-Turrets are only energy efficient if left alone and as a result don't really have a place in main army battles except as a last resort (your Tanks need an extra buffer maybe?). As you mentioned, this makes them good against worker lines and rallied units, but there are few situations where you'd want your Raven away from the main army for the reasons I explained above.
Nothing to say here about the rest of the changes, everything looks good 
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On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
I have to criticize you a bit for starting with "The true logical answer to all this" and later saying, "The 'Be all and End all Hotkey Guide' Should not be a hotkey setup like this." By using that opening, it is as if you are claiming that you have the "be all and end all" judgement of what the conclusion everyone should be drawing from "all this". You use of language here is hypocritical. That being said, I think you bring up a lot of good opinions here.
You have to understand that while my choice of language is indeed sharp and perhaps a little too direct, my opinion is a very broad term and to argue its logic is pretty difficult. Im only saying that due to differing hand sizes/movements, this hotkey setup will not suit everybody. As you mentioned, i did also go on to say that a true hotkey guide should address these issues, and go on to help others make their hotkey setup applicable to their own hand. Again, hard to argue the logic in that. So when i say "Logical Answer", thats what i mean. Perhaps i shouldnt have said "True", which may imply that your guide is somehow false, which it isnt. In this case, me thinking i have the be all and end all judgement isnt really very presumptuous considering what i said is roughly equal to me saying "A size 12 glove will not fit everybody's hand, a glove buying guide should show people how to measure their hand, then find the glove that fits.". Its just plain logic.
On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
Everyone has their own style; I both respect and encourage that. However, not everyone has the time to spend creating the perfect hotkey setup for them, and standard or grid leave a lot to be desired.
I agree completely, and to that end i suggest breaking your hotkey setup down into several different sets after studying how different sized hands are used in SC2. The obvious way to go about this would be to put out a request for keyboard videos of Small, Medium and Large sized hands playing Sc2. The only problem is it would be alot better to be able to see what they were doing in game at the same time, perhaps knowing how their hotkeys are setup would be enough to give you the picture of whats going on. After analysis i would be making a Small Medium and Large handed version of the hotkey setup, then also writing in a guide to tweaking in between sizes if it is required.
On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
This is not the be all, end all, hotkey setup. This is a work in progress. I spent a long time working on it in private because I wanted to make it as good as I could without help, before asking for help, therefore not wasting anyone's time.
Then would you please change the OP to reflect this, phrases such as "There are some custom hotkey threads out there, but there are few as ruthlessly efficient as the hotkey setup that I have to offer." make it seem like this is a one size fits all quick ticket to getting better at SC2. Hell, my mate who has fingers like ET could load up your setup thinking it is going to suit him awesomely and then cramp up trying to do the key combinations efficiently. You need to let people know how this stuff works, you cant be devoted to figuring out the science of hotkeys without taking fully into account the science of how differing peoples hands work. Im not trying to offend you or anything, im just a firm believer that if you are going to do something (especially for a community) it should be done right, and i cant seem to shake the fact that if we are going to move forward with hotkey science we need to start with the fundamental logic behind it and work our way up. The fundamental logic encompasses all of the guiding principles that set you along the right path, for instance:
- Lessen the amount of wasted time moving your fingers by grouping hotkeys in a central location on the keyboard.
- Make sure the layout is as intuitive and simple as it can be while still being as efficient as possible.
- Tailor the hotkeys to the hand that uses it.
- Place hotkeys to take advantage of the way the hand works - have you ever noticed that going 2 > E is a little bit easier than going 2 > W due to the extra distance? Its the same with 3 > Q and 3 > W for me. Obviously when building things like SCVs and Marines (very common keystrokes) it is much much more beneficial to be using the key combinations that just 'feel' (and are) fast and comfortable. Once upon a time i built SCV's by going 2 > W because it was intuitive to learn it that way because it corresponds to the command pane, however, in this instance efficiency trumped intuitiveness hands down. (sometimes it doesnt, i believe in the case of holding down Alt for camera keys but thats debatable. I think it could theoretically be easier for people with certain hand types to reach up a bit rather than contort down but thats a different story and a much more detailed addition to the guide)
- The list goes on and on, but it is the starting point and ensures that all further decisions are rooted in logic.
Now, i know that due to the size of the keyboard sometimes the size difference in peoples hands can be negligible but i still believe we need atleast 3 different scaffolds to start with when creating a full hotkey guide. (Small, Medium, Large hands. It is actually more to do with finger length, but the two generally come hand in hand.. get it?!?! omgwoot) To be honest, ive been pondering the idea of a fully blown hotkey research project but it is -alot- of work to get anything that bears serious relevance to a large group of people. Partly due to differing hand size but mostly to do with differing opinion and the fact that none of this has been really researched and studied, it mostly goes by what people 'feel' is the best, or most efficient. Its hard to get the research done because its hard research to do, but it would be great to have it completed.
On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
Concerning your personal setup, I think its really great for people who are down to remap keys on the keyboard and use extra keys on the mouse. I especially like the idea of reducing "Hand Deformation". From the evidence I have seen, and felt, the Darkgrid method for screen hotkeys (using Alt) does not cause wrist or hand strain and is faster and more accurate than reaching for the F1-F4 keys. I am totally willing to change any and all of my opinions as more evidence comes in. I honestly appreciate your contribution to this project, despite a somewhat aggressive language choice. I make the same mistake in discourse often and am working to give my opinions more humbly. If you think my language is inaccurate or rude I definitely would appreciate the heads up, it is hard to fix things like that without help. :D
The remapping of keys is just an added bonus at home, to be honest it would be better to remove the Left Alt and Left Windows Key so eventually you just didnt press them at all. Then you'd be all tournament ready and such. Either way, im not saying my style is awesome because i really just went by feeling and tweaked darkgrid to what i felt was intuitive, i was just adding my two cents about the theory behind this stuff and happened to detail my setup aswell. The biggest thing i like about my style is the semi-grid (9x9) that takes care of all building commands and unit/building abilities. Anyway, i didnt mean to offend you i just didnt really like the vibe the very start of your OP gives when this is supposed to be a work in progress. You want to be attracting other people who want to help figure this stuff out, not new players who are looking for an easy way to get better. Its silly to plan to get every new player on a custom hotkey setup when we dont actually know for sure what the best setup is, especially to start with. (I would be betting that for people just starting to learn sc2 intuitiveness will be paramount over efficiency when it comes to hotkey setup.) Basically all im saying is, tell it like it is man - i know your excited about your setup but surely you dont believe that you are close to a conclusion when we havent even broken the setup down by hand size and tweaked it for that, or taken every racial difference into consideration. Posting things like "If there is a more efficient method possible, I am excited to hear it." makes me think that you have finished your research and are satisfied with your results. Surely you know this can have a whole lot more theory behind it, even if it did happen to be the most efficient hotkey setup possible for an average hand size we still wouldnt actually know exactly why without further research. All we would know is it 'feels' faster and more intuitive, and it looks like our APM is higher (or not?) Or maybe it just looks like the hand is able to move faster? should we cross reference APM readouts from replays or would that just be silly? Can we get a count of keystrokes wasted through spamming/repetition throughout a SC2 game? Maybe someone could write a program that counts a players incorrect keystrokes throughout a game? or does the replay not save information on unbound keys pressed? Maybe we could send some masters players through a series of actions and time them, then cross reference using different setups to find their most efficient?
Anyway, i know im passionate and my language can sometimes be blunt but i think you will find i didnt actually claim to know anything that wasnt pretty obvious. Im a firm believer in logic and ive been considering this whole hotkey science thing for awhile, so i have a few thoughts on the matter and im sorry if that came across as hostile. Id like to help in any way i can move this thing forward so we can better understand how to efficiently control our beloved races.
EDIT: Last word was "race" not "races", editted as some of you sleep with multiple teams.. like a rabid bandicoot, no loyalty..
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On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
8. Do you rest your hands on QWER with Darkgrid?
In Darkgrid, you rest your fingers on QWEF and those keys are used for pretty much anything, F generally being the major one, used for the Build command on your workers for example.
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I appreciate your comments omny, I was going to make a post like yours yesterday because when I saw this guide the first thing that came to mind was that it looked like mine, only condensed even further to the point that hand deformation would come into play for many people and featuring cleaner graphics/layout. I opted not to because since both of us took inspiration from dark grid there were bound to be some similarities. I will make an updated version of my guide sometime soon, once I'm done with my exams.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326424
Thats my guide if you want to read it. It says Terran only but its not, you can set up all the races simultaneously on a semi-grid key layout, with no mouse buttons. I just can't/ don't know how to edit the title, and am afraid that if I edit the body now it will bump the post and I will get in trouble for necroing.
The thing is though, different races have different mechanics. Zerg is far less special ability focused than Terran. Almost every Terran unit features specials that are CRITICALLY NECESSARY when fighting, so specials are high priority. This is not the case with zerg (not to the same extant anyways), so you might not want special abillities on your index like I do with terran. Also, Terran units are split up amongst different production buildings, so you can stack all your unit production hotkeys on 4 keys and just toggle between buildings. Zerg produces all units from one building type, so you can't stack production hotkeys on 4 keys. These are just a few things worth considering, but basically I think this hints at the idea that outside of a true-grid there is no way to have a universal hotkey setup that works equally well for all three races at the same time because the different mechanics of each race require different things from the player. And this is to say nothing of the impact of different hand sizes.
To me the biggest factors, in order of priority, in determining how to configure your controls are: 1) the size of your hand (which keys are easiest to press), 2) the race you play (dif races have dif mechanics, as described above) and 3) your style of play (different comps have different priorities in regards to which keys are most important). Because of this, there can be no universal setup, and I think it is an error to post hotkey guides that feature only a hard layout, instead of featuring a logic and method to help you find what works for you. Your specific layout is good to have as an example, but the most important thing to me is the method behind it.
Read my thread linked above, it isnt long, and despite the format contains a lot of good info. I can tell you that MKP uses a semi-grid hotkey setup like in my guide. I downloaded some replays from sc2drop and observed his setup, it is very similar to my actual setup, and seems to be informed from the same considerations that I describe above. If you want to see a players hotkeys in a replay, you need to click the little camera icon to go to player view, otherwise you will see either the default hotkeys or your own hotkeys (I forget which). I made this discovery after I posted the guide, not before, so I did not steal MKPs hotkeys and reverse engineer a guide, rather I wrote the guide and discovered after that MKP, best Terran (and overall player IMO) used similar logic. Jjakji is another Terran who I *believe* uses semi-grid. I cant find any of his replays, but in watching his keyboard hand as he plays I see many similarities. Just some food for thought.
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On May 04 2012 23:52 rikter wrote:
To me the biggest factors, in order of priority, in determining how to configure your controls are: 1) the size of your hand (which keys are easiest to press), 2) the race you play (dif races have dif mechanics, as described above) and 3) your style of play (different comps have different priorities in regards to which keys are most important). Because of this, there can be no universal setup, and I think it is an error to post hotkey guides that feature only a hard layout, instead of featuring a logic and method to help you find what works for you. Your specific layout is good to have as an example, but the most important thing to me is the method behind it.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you have posted rikter as you probably already guess, and also agree that hand size and race played are the top two things that need to be considered when making a hotkey setup. I cant decide which is most important, obviously in the extreme ends of the scale hand size could pose a massive issue but for 80% i think race is perhaps the biggest driving factor. These people would probably be considered the "Mediums" when coming up with a range of key setups to suit. I fully expect Small and Large setups to be used by only roughly 10 - 20% of people but it is still enough to warrant their creation. I would say to be able to skip very very extensive research (A complete guide to mapping each key for your hand) a minimum of 9 setups would be needed. Small Medium and Large for each of the 3 races. Perhaps a set for Random but hell, you'd be sacrificing alot of efficiency to get a setup for a random player. Atleast then you could be semi-confident that your hotkey setup will actually fit with most people once they have figured out which of the nine they need - i think that if this was a community project this needs to be the very minimum that we strive to achieve. And this is of course only after we -actually- figured out what is the best way to go in terms of layout. I think most of us feel a semi-grid system works best. I personally use a 9x9 grid, may i ask the specifics of your grid rikter? I dont have too much time to read your guide atm as i need to head off to bed - perhaps we could talk on SC2 one day soon (Omny.250 on SEA or oMNY.379 on NA). I personally use the 9x9 grid as is for building buildings, but when i use it for controlling units special abilities i flip the bottom two rows so that most abilities are on A or S instead of Z and X. (Having Stimpack, Siege, Snipe, Cannons, Etc.. all on the same key is magic, and when its at a nice position on the keyboard its even better, mmm..) No more remembering which letter corresponds to which ability, just remember where abouts it is on the command pane in relation to your semi-grid. And of course its magic when building buildings because the build standard structures window is 9x9 anyway. Semi grid definitely seems like the go but id like to discuss the specifics with you further, things like other potential sizes for the grid or ways to lay it out most efficiently. Also, discussion on how to most efficiently lay out everything else around the grid would be great and is much needed i think. I dont want to hijack this thread in the process however so ill catch up with you soon in real time perhaps, or PM me and maybe we can start a project of sorts.
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On May 04 2012 12:33 Dahkar wrote:
I'm thinking of switching R to main army and having 3/E as harass/Flank. Loving the hotkey set up so far though. The home keys feel really natural. The hardest part about switching is using the C/V as my build keys. My fingers seem to fumble and get confused when I reach for the bottom rows(especially those keys) One thing I did notice is that the C/V is backwards.(IE C is Advancd and V is normal buildings) Where as visually they are backwards. Was there a reason for this?
V is for basic because your index finger is the strongest, and because basic is the more often issued command, it matches with the faster to press key. :D awesome question
I would suggest putting your main army to E and using 3 and R for harrass, that way you can easily press 3aRa without having to move around much. love to see that you are messing around with it.
For me, tech labs and reactors were the hardest part of switching over, but i think everyone will have their own "hardest part" I am working on a series of mnemonic devices to help make the switch easier, along with pointing out the consistencies between keys already built into the layout (Q is for spell casters, Z is for capital ships etc etc)
Thanks for the specific feedback as always Dahkar
Continue to kick ass :D
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On May 04 2012 14:49 Jakatak_ wrote:
I will try this, but btw, we both have the same name and people have been confusing me with you hahaha.
hahahaha! Are you the masters jakatak that got on the day9 daily one time??? People keep confusing me with you too! :D
Nice to finally meet you :D
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On May 04 2012 15:19 Roadog wrote:Hi! Really liking this setup; I was intimidated at first by the Darkgrid guide (rookie mistake), but I decided to try out this one and it definitely feels like a more efficient way to play the game! I remapped some of the Q and Z hotkeys to C or V (index finger is used to hunting-and-pecking). One small thing: in your Protoss guide, you have 4 mapped to Colossus and 5 mapped to Zealots, but in your explanation you say Show nested quote +Zealots are more common than Colossi. 4a is faster than 5a. Zealots get 4. Colossi get 5.
Will edit and credit. Nice catch :D thanks buddy.
Also, I am interested in which ones you changed. If there's no finger repetition I would definitely consider making the same changes :D
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On May 04 2012 23:34 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
8. Do you rest your hands on QWER with Darkgrid?
In Darkgrid, you rest your fingers on QWEF and those keys are used for pretty much anything, F generally being the major one, used for the Build command on your workers for example.
Cool, thanks. Darkgrid makes much more sense now. Still writing the comparison and working with FoxyMayhem to make both layouts better though :D
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On May 04 2012 16:59 Akinokaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:50 JaKaTaK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sentry
Hallucinate Phoenix is QW (faster and more reliable that QQ) When reaching for the Q key, your ring finger naturally moves to the W key, making QW the most efficient and comfortable choice.
High Templar
S for Feedback (single target)
W for Storm (area of effect)
Q for Archon (morph)
I think having feedback on S and Q on warp archon is much better. It is harder to accidentally hit Q than S or W and accidentally selecting the feedback or storm command is no problem as it requires an additional click to cast, while accidentally morphing 2 or more full energy high templar can be game changing. I am changing it and updating the file/credits.
Ghost
S = Snipe (single target)
W = EMP (area of effect)
Q = Nuke (special)
Raven
I am not convinced that PDD is a more pressed command than Auto-Turret. It might be at the pro level in the current meta game, but Auto-Turret costs 50 energy while PDD costs 100, so there will be more situations where you need something to give you an edge but only have 75 energy on the raven and can't wait for 25 more to drop the PDD. Also, PDD only works on units with ranged projectile attacks. Auto-Turret can help sway the tide of a battle against any enemy unit and even harass worker lines, or cut off reinforcements. I feel that Auto-Turret is more versatile and has more opportunities for use on average than PDD. What is your position on this? Q for Seeker Missile for sure tho.
Infestor
The Infested Terran spell is often used with shift, whereas the fungal growth spell never uses shift. Shift S is faster than Shift W. Infested Terran gets S, Fungal gets W. (this is why W is AoE and not S) Completely agree with the Single/AoE target setup rather than the Primary/Secondary. In regards to the Raven, PDD definitely sees more use although as you said Auto-Turrets are more versatile. People build Ravens because of PDD not Auto-Turret, and unless there's no longer a reason to use PDD (e.g you killed all the Stalkers in a Zealot Colossi PvT composition; you won a big Viking vs Viking battle and have superior air control) you'll be keeping the Raven with your main army/saving energy for when it is needed. As a damage dealer Auto-Turrets are only energy efficient if left alone and as a result don't really have a place in main army battles except as a last resort (your Tanks need an extra buffer maybe?). As you mentioned, this makes them good against worker lines and rallied units, but there are few situations where you'd want your Raven away from the main army for the reasons I explained above. Nothing to say here about the rest of the changes, everything looks good
That is a really really good point. It is a huge risk to send ravens away unprotected to harass, maybe that is why we don't see the auto-turret get as much use as it should. (what if they gave it to the hellion! Terran OP!) but seriously I didn't think of that before. I tend to stay away from the thought process of, "this is what the best players do, so this is the best thing to do" meta game is going to change, the player base as a whole is going to improve and strategies will evolve, that's why I encourage new players not to get too caught up in the meta game and in strategies in general, but instead to focus on the unchanging things of starcraft that have always been true first.
PDD counts as AoE (it blocks projectiles in a certain "area" IMO so we can keep it at W with the rest of the AoE. S will be for auto turret. Sound good?
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This is interesting, but a bit too cramped for me. People with larger hands can easily reach from A to H without stretching. Additionaly, as my pinky and ring finger are my weakest, I want to avoid putting too much functionality at the left side of the keyboard.
I do something similar to you a bit farther to the right, and bend the control groups down to y -h -n.
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Man the hotkeys are so counter-intuitive to me, lost 2 games cause i quit 4 mins into them, there was no point in playing after so many mistakes. Ill try to to stick to it, maybe with minor modifications, but not sure if I will have enough patience:o
edit:
Make it 3 games. Why is Warpgate select hotkey is ctrl+shift+] ?? do you hate protoss?
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iokke, you are definitely not supposed to play normal ladder games before getting familiar with a new hotkey layout. You wouldn't drive a stick-shift car for the first time by taking it into newyork traffic! Come on man, ha ha ha.
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I am going to respond to your post in line (the bold is me) I really appreciate your opinion, and you should know, that I am a very difficult person to offend, I am just very honest and direct, I apologize for any inaccuracies in the OP or else where, promise that they were unintentional, and will correct them.
On May 04 2012 23:06 oMNY.SEA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
I have to criticize you a bit for starting with "The true logical answer to all this" and later saying, "The 'Be all and End all Hotkey Guide' Should not be a hotkey setup like this." By using that opening, it is as if you are claiming that you have the "be all and end all" judgement of what the conclusion everyone should be drawing from "all this". You use of language here is hypocritical. That being said, I think you bring up a lot of good opinions here. You have to understand that while my choice of language is indeed sharp and perhaps a little too direct, my opinion is a very broad term and to argue its logic is pretty difficult. Im only saying that due to differing hand sizes/movements, this hotkey setup will not suit everybody. As you mentioned, i did also go on to say that a true hotkey guide should address these issues, and go on to help others make their hotkey setup applicable to their own hand. Again, hard to argue the logic in that. So when i say "Logical Answer", thats what i mean. Perhaps i shouldnt have said "True" this is exactly what i was criticizing, which may imply that your guide is somehow false, which it isnt. In this case, me thinking i have the be all and end all judgement isnt really very presumptuous I think any case of anyone saying that you have the be all and end all judgement on anything is the epitome of presumptuous, but that's an opinion you may disagree with considering what i said is roughly equal to me saying "A size 12 glove will not fit everybody's hand, a glove buying guide should show people how to measure their hand, then find the glove that fits.". Its just plain logic. I agree with the hand size/ positioning point. It'll take a lot of work to do that. I would definitely give you helpful critiques if you started that up, go for it (not sarcasm, i actually think it would be awesome if you started working on this)Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
Everyone has their own style; I both respect and encourage that. However, not everyone has the time to spend creating the perfect hotkey setup for them, and standard or grid leave a lot to be desired. I agree completely, and to that end i suggest breaking your hotkey setup down into several different sets after studying how different sized hands are used in SC2. The obvious way to go about this would be to put out a request for keyboard videos of Small, Medium and Large sized hands playing Sc2. The only problem is it would be alot better to be able to see what they were doing in game at the same time, perhaps knowing how their hotkeys are setup would be enough to give you the picture of whats going on. After analysis i would be making a Small Medium and Large handed version of the hotkey setup, then also writing in a guide to tweaking in between sizes if it is required. I agree on the hand size thingShow nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
This is not the be all, end all, hotkey setup. This is a work in progress. I spent a long time working on it in private because I wanted to make it as good as I could without help, before asking for help, therefore not wasting anyone's time. Then would you please change the OP to reflect this, phrases such as "There are some custom hotkey threads out there, but there are few as ruthlessly efficient as the hotkey setup that I have to offer." I think this is an accurate statement. There are not many hotkey layouts as ruthlessly efficient as this one, but there are a few that are make it seem like this is a one size fits all quick ticket to getting better at SC2. Hell, my mate who has fingers like ET could load up your setup thinking it is going to suit him awesomely and then cramp up trying to do the key combinations efficiently. You need to let people know how this stuff works, you cant be devoted to figuring out the science of hotkeys without taking fully into account the science of how differing peoples hands work. Im not trying to offend you or anything, im just a firm believer that if you are going to do something (especially for a community) it should be done right, and i cant seem to shake the fact that if we are going to move forward with hotkey science we need to start with the fundamental logic behind it and work our way up. The fundamental logic encompasses all of the guiding principles that set you along the right path, for instance: - Lessen the amount of wasted time moving your fingers by grouping hotkeys in a central location on the keyboard. i said that in the OP- Make sure the layout is as intuitive and simple as it can be while still being as efficient as possible. i said that in the OP- Tailor the hotkeys to the hand that uses it. - Place hotkeys to take advantage of the way the hand works - have you ever noticed that going 2 > E is a little bit easier than going 2 > W due to the extra distance? Its the same with 3 > Q and 3 > W for me. Obviously when building things like SCVs and Marines (very common keystrokes) it is much much more beneficial to be using the key combinations that just 'feel' (and are) fast and comfortable. Once upon a time i built SCV's by going 2 > W because it was intuitive to learn it that way because it corresponds to the command pane, however, in this instance efficiency trumped intuitiveness hands down. (sometimes it doesnt, i believe in the case of holding down Alt for camera keys but thats debatable. I think it could theoretically be easier for people with certain hand types to reach up a bit rather than contort down but thats a different story and a much more detailed addition to the guide) - The list goes on and on, but it is the starting point and ensures that all further decisions are rooted in logic. things like this make me think you haven't read any of the OP at all Now, i know that due to the size of the keyboard sometimes the size difference in peoples hands can be negligible but i still believe we need atleast 3 different scaffolds to start with when creating a full hotkey guide. (Small, Medium, Large hands. It is actually more to do with finger length, but the two generally come hand in hand.. get it?!?! omgwoot) To be honest, ive been pondering the idea of a fully blown hotkey research project but it is -alot- of work to get anything that bears serious relevance to a large group of people. Partly due to differing hand size but mostly to do with differing opinion and the fact that none of this has been really researched and studied, it mostly goes by what people 'feel' is the best, or most efficient. Its hard to get the research done because its hard research to do, but it would be great to have it completed. agreed, you should do it!!Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
Concerning your personal setup, I think its really great for people who are down to remap keys on the keyboard and use extra keys on the mouse. I especially like the idea of reducing "Hand Deformation". From the evidence I have seen, and felt, the Darkgrid method for screen hotkeys (using Alt) does not cause wrist or hand strain and is faster and more accurate than reaching for the F1-F4 keys. I am totally willing to change any and all of my opinions as more evidence comes in. I honestly appreciate your contribution to this project, despite a somewhat aggressive language choice. I make the same mistake in discourse often and am working to give my opinions more humbly. If you think my language is inaccurate or rude I definitely would appreciate the heads up, it is hard to fix things like that without help. :D The remapping of keys is just an added bonus at home, to be honest it would be better to remove the Left Alt having only 3 modifier keys is hard enough! only having 2 would be terrible! and Left Windows Key so eventually you just didnt press them at all. Then you'd be all tournament ready and such. Either way, im not saying my style is awesome because i really just went by feeling and tweaked darkgrid to what i felt was intuitive, i was just adding my two cents about the theory behind this stuff and happened to detail my setup aswell. The biggest thing i like about my style is the semi-grid (9x9) 3x3? that takes care of all building commands and unit/building abilities. Anyway, i didnt mean to offend you no offense taken, its all good man :D i just didnt really like the vibe the very start of your OP gives when this is supposed to be a work in progress. agreed You want to be attracting other people who want to help figure this stuff out, not new players who are looking for an easy way to get better. this is a logical contradiction. You say that this layout is difficult to learn; you say that i am attracting players who are looking for an easy way to get better Its silly to plan to get every new player on a custom hotkey setup when we dont actually know for sure what the best setup is, we will likely never know what the definitive best setup is, we can only know what is best so far. especially to start with. (I would be betting that for people just starting to learn sc2 intuitiveness will be paramount over efficiency when it comes to hotkey setup.) actually if you're starting to learn sc2, it is easy to learn the game with a more efficient hotkey layout Basically all im saying is, tell it like it is man - i know your excited about your setup but surely you dont believe that you are close to a conclusion when we havent even broken the setup down by hand size and tweaked it for that, I get the hand size thing or taken every racial difference into consideration. Posting things like "If there is a more efficient method possible, I am excited to hear it." makes me think that you have finished your research and are satisfied with your results. why would this sentence make you think that? I am excited to hear it... literally... i am not being sarcastic Surely you know this can have a whole lot more theory behind it, even if it did happen to be the most efficient hotkey setup possible for an average hand size we still wouldnt actually know exactly why without further research. All we would know is it 'feels' faster and more intuitive, and it looks like our APM is higher (or not?) Or maybe it just looks like the hand is able to move faster? should we cross reference APM readouts from replays or would that just be silly? Can we get a count of keystrokes wasted through spamming/repetition throughout a SC2 game? Maybe someone could write a program that counts a players incorrect keystrokes throughout a game? or does the replay not save information on unbound keys pressed? Maybe we could send some masters players through a series of actions and time them, then cross reference using different setups to find their most efficient? you really ought to look at the Darkgrid post by FoxyMayhem, he does a much more thorough job of explaining why its more efficientAnyway, i know im passionate and my language can sometimes be blunt inaccurate and exaggerated but i think you will find i didnt actually claim to know anything that wasnt pretty obvious. Im a firm believer in logic and ive been considering this whole hotkey science thing for awhile, so i have a few thoughts on the matter and im sorry if that came across as hostile. Id like to help in any way i can move this thing forward so we can better understand how to efficiently control our beloved races. EDIT: Last word was "race" not "races", editted as some of you sleep with multiple teams.. like a rabid bandicoot are you calling people born with sexual attraction to different races and sexes rabid bandicoots?, no loyalty.. is this a racial joke?
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On May 05 2012 04:03 FoxyMayhem wrote:
iokke, you are definitely not supposed to play normal ladder games before getting familiar with a new hotkey layout. You wouldn't drive a stick-shift car for the first time by taking it into newyork traffic! Come on man, ha ha ha.
ya, i know, im just very bored vs comp and i dont care much about my ladder points. It would be just as frustrating vs PC, but im sure if ill stick to it would be an improvement over stock. I am changing quite a few shortcuts to fit my needs though, but trying to stick to overall design for now..
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On May 05 2012 03:48 iokke wrote:Man the hotkeys are so counter-intuitive to me, lost 2 games cause i quit 4 mins into them, there was no point in playing after so many mistakes. Ill try to to stick to it, maybe with minor modifications, but not sure if I will have enough patience:o edit: Make it 3 games. Why is Warpgate select hotkey is ctrl+shift+] ?? do you hate protoss?
Without digging through the OP for your answer, my guess is that he adds gateways to a control group and uses that instead of the Warpgate selection key, so the crazy binding for that is just a matter of getting it out of the way, without it showing up as Red Unbound.
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On May 05 2012 05:40 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:48 iokke wrote:Man the hotkeys are so counter-intuitive to me, lost 2 games cause i quit 4 mins into them, there was no point in playing after so many mistakes. Ill try to to stick to it, maybe with minor modifications, but not sure if I will have enough patience:o edit: Make it 3 games. Why is Warpgate select hotkey is ctrl+shift+] ?? do you hate protoss? Without digging through the OP for your answer, my guess is that he adds gateways to a control group and uses that instead of the Warpgate selection key, so the crazy binding for that is just a matter of getting it out of the way, without it showing up as Red Unbound.
ya thats what i figured, i just rebound the hotkey to something else.. but Im giving up now lol, perhaps ill try switching hotkeys another week (trying to quit smoking as well.. bad bad combo )
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In regards to colo / zealot -- I think 4 for colo and 5 for zealots is optimal. While colo are made less often -- you're infrequently microing Zealots by selecting all. However colo require heavy micro. Especially with grabbing whole group(If viking are attacking them for example)
Edit: Also -- Keeping tab as Ramp for protoss is fantastic for when you need to FF
Edit #2: Thoughts on using shift - Button vs Alt - Button as go to screens key? I feel like this is more natural and easy to reach.
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I think it would be helpful to state where you put your fingers in the OP. When it comes to these high-end hotkey setups, you aren't always on ASDF.
By the way, where are your fingers on in this layout?
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FoxyMayhem and I just made a breakthrough in custom hotkey layout efficiency. We are currently working on a new hotkey layout from scratch to utilize this.
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