EPT[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…
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Demicore
France503 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On June 18 2012 23:37 Fogetaboudit wrote: well put, I'm still doing great with this build... just struggling in my other matchups (probably because my MMR is inflated due to not losing PvZ) Haha, story of my life. Matchmaking almost never gives me PvZs any more, because I basically never lose against Zerg. My PvP is okay, but my PvT is struggling, so it mostly matches me up with Terrans. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
Eventually got tilted and tried to go carriers into HT and actually won a game (but also lost about 10  ) | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On June 19 2012 11:59 -MoOsE- wrote: What is the general timings with this build. I don't know when I should drop third, get mommaship, and the fleet beacon. There are variations depending on your playstyle. Basically FFE as normal. @100% Core - WG research + 3 gates to do some zealot pressure OR +1 air weapons Also Start your SG OR Double stargate Add fleet beacon. Create VR's or 5 Phoenix + APC OR 1 phoenix for scout @100% Fleet beacon - MS w/ cb @50% MS - start your third + cannons (remember to clean up the ling scout first) @15 minutes defend a maxed zerg attack, after that - take 4th. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
I sometimes lose when doing this build, and that's usually when Zerg scouts the fleet beacon and immediately goes straight to mass corruptors/infestors. By doing this pressure, we can force a ground army which then gets countered later. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On June 19 2012 18:06 Nyast wrote: Fogetaboudit, have you thought about doing a 4-gate zealots + voidray pressure while getting the mothership / establishing the third ? This will delay them a little bit but that pressure is pretty scary for the Zerg, and his typical reaction will most likely involve hydras, which suck vs the rest of the build. I sometimes lose when doing this build, and that's usually when Zerg scouts the fleet beacon and immediately goes straight to mass corruptors/infestors. By doing this pressure, we can force a ground army which then gets countered later. I've been thinking of more offencive style with this build. Basically came up with following: Early CB 2 zealots for the poke and possible early agression, WG and +1 ground (produce less cannon, more zealots) While building PHX SG, add 3 more gates. @8-9 minutes an attack with +1 at 3rd and @5 phoenix (~9:30) at main, APC and +1 air will kick in @11min By 12 minutes MS should be out already and third should be up with some cannons and at least 2 VR over it. When 3rd is up - add 3 more SG. But this haven't yet been tested. Weaknesses are obvious. Less cannons. Late 2nd SG. Later 2nd Core. | ||
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Wasihasi
Germany36 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On June 19 2012 10:05 Fogetaboudit wrote: yeah I got about 90% PvT today on the ladder, it was really strange. Also dropped a bunch of points, lol. Eventually got tilted and tried to go carriers into HT and actually won a game (but also lost about 10 )Same. :\ I've actually found carriers to be sort of effective against Terran if he goes really heavy marauder, but that's a rarity unless you go heavy blink stalker play for too long. Still, can be satisfying. On June 19 2012 15:11 Rimak wrote: There are variations depending on your playstyle. Basically FFE as normal. @100% Core - WG research + 3 gates to do some zealot pressure OR +1 air weapons Also Start your SG OR Double stargate Add fleet beacon. Create VR's or 5 Phoenix + APC OR 1 phoenix for scout @100% Fleet beacon - MS w/ cb @50% MS - start your third + cannons (remember to clean up the ling scout first) @15 minutes defend a maxed zerg attack, after that - take 4th. I think strictly speaking, fast mothership implies single stargate with either phoenixes for production harass or void rays to hold roaches at bay. Also, if planning for Skytoss composition, one can also opt for double cyber core. On June 19 2012 18:06 Nyast wrote: Fogetaboudit, have you thought about doing a 4-gate zealots + voidray pressure while getting the mothership / establishing the third ? This will delay them a little bit but that pressure is pretty scary for the Zerg, and his typical reaction will most likely involve hydras, which suck vs the rest of the build. I sometimes lose when doing this build, and that's usually when Zerg scouts the fleet beacon and immediately goes straight to mass corruptors/infestors. By doing this pressure, we can force a ground army which then gets countered later. A ways back in the meta game (late november, early december last year), there was a style of +1 void ray pressure very similar to what you're describing. Basically a fast two gases after FFE, 3rd after cyber, and then stargate and 1 void ray. Chrono +1 at the forge and Warp Tech, plant a nice early pylon and enjoy. Zealots kill lings, void rays kill roaches, and both kill queens. It can be kind of ugly if your Zerg opponent doesn't build crawlers or fast techs to lair. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On June 19 2012 20:07 HelioSeven wrote:A ways back in the meta game (late november, early december last year), there was a style of +1 void ray pressure very similar to what you're describing. Basically a fast two gases after FFE, 3rd after cyber, and then stargate and 1 void ray. Chrono +1 at the forge and Warp Tech, plant a nice early pylon and enjoy. Zealots kill lings, void rays kill roaches, and both kill queens. It can be kind of ugly if your Zerg opponent doesn't build crawlers or fast techs to lair. This is actually very nice. Because the build will look more like common toss strat and may even call you old-scool, up until the moment zerg sees MS ad more than 3 VR's. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On June 19 2012 21:23 Arcanefrost wrote: Only thing I have trouble with is neurals on my mothership into double vortex on my own army, that shit should be nerfed out of the game! :p I know your kinda joking but, I am not aggressive with my mothership unless I need to all-in for some reason. If you decisively lose an engagement you normally lose the game. I like having the option to scout composition while harassing, and being able to recall to safety after picking off some units and letting my shields tank some fungal damage. It's a great utility. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On June 19 2012 18:21 Rimak wrote: I've been thinking of more offencive style with this build. Basically came up with following: Early CB 2 zealots for the poke and possible early agression, WG and +1 ground (produce less cannon, more zealots) While building PHX SG, add 3 more gates. @8-9 minutes an attack with +1 at 3rd and @5 phoenix (~9:30) at main, APC and +1 air will kick in @11min By 12 minutes MS should be out already and third should be up with some cannons and at least 2 VR over it. When 3rd is up - add 3 more SG. But this haven't yet been tested. Weaknesses are obvious. Less cannons. Late 2nd SG. Later 2nd Core. yeah these weaknesses cover early aggression pretty well. We can get to a similar midgame from many openings... I like doing a safe style that will produce a lot of consistent 3 base situations, but thats just me, I think aggressive openings are viable. | ||
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loko1275
11 Posts
On June 19 2012 15:11 Rimak wrote: There are variations depending on your playstyle. Basically FFE as normal. @100% Core - WG research + 3 gates to do some zealot pressure OR +1 air weapons Also Start your SG OR Double stargate Add fleet beacon. Create VR's or 5 Phoenix + APC OR 1 phoenix for scout @100% Fleet beacon - MS w/ cb @50% MS - start your third + cannons (remember to clean up the ling scout first) @15 minutes defend a maxed zerg attack, after that - take 4th. I dont get it, the maxed zerg attack is at 12, not at 15 no ? | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On June 19 2012 23:20 loko1275 wrote: I dont get it, the maxed zerg attack is at 12, not at 15 no ? If you don't touch him and try to take a passive third - yes. Phoenix harass, for example will disrupt his production cycles, force spores and makes him spend larvae on Overlords. Zealot-voidray can deny his third, which is a huge setback. Also not every zerg has the steel nerves to go in attack, while you play in his sandbox. AND your MS is out by 12 min, so roach-lings usually kiss an invisible wall and go away. @15 he will assemble a healthy unit composition and take 4th (as he is feeling super-safe, cuz he will have alot of AA units). But as his resource will go over 2k he will try to bust you, but the thing is, that it's close to IMPOSSIBRU. So after he realizes, that his army was just decimated, you can take 4th whie he rebuilds supply. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
new game vs BM player  I guess not taking a risk all game, and playing a macro game, is the new "cheese" haha | ||
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rocKingJS
2 Posts
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
On June 20 2012 03:56 rocKingJS wrote: Doesnt this lose against a fast roach-rush? (7 roach rush for example) doesn't have anything to do with this build, upon scouting cheese you react accordingly of course! (cannons, sentries) and can then transition into the skytoss style | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On June 19 2012 21:11 Rimak wrote: This is actually very nice. Because the build will look more like common toss strat and may even call you old-scool, up until the moment zerg sees MS ad more than 3 VR's. As always, there are of course trade-offs. The 4th gas is delayed, which slightly delays the FB and thus mothership and thus 3rd base. Also, it delays your air upgrades by spending gas on +1 ground weapons and warp tech so early on. It being a pressure build, the implication is that you can do some damage, at least kill a queen or some drones or a tech building if not the 3rd base altogether, and be able to continue into fast mothership. Meanwhile, your Zerg opponent hopefully over-invests in static defense (spines and spores) that are in the long run going to be totally useless to him and put him behind on drone count. On June 20 2012 04:11 uLysSeS1 wrote: doesn't have anything to do with this build, upon scouting cheese you react accordingly of course! (cannons, sentries) and can then transition into the skytoss style The nice thing about stargate first is that if you blind stargate first against a roach rush and scout it late, you can still chrono out the first void ray and usually minimize losses to a pylon or two and a few probes. But I agree, against a well-timed 7 roach or other early roach rush, generally you just have to scout it correctly, put up 2 or 3 extra cannons at your natural choke, and just chrono out units and you should be golden. | ||
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M00sejuice
United States3 Posts
On June 20 2012 03:42 Fogetaboudit wrote: http://drop.sc/200548 new game vs BM player I guess not taking a risk all game, and playing a macro game, is the new "cheese" haha It was really fun to watch the resources lost tab :D But seriously this strat is awesome. It may be far too early to tell but I wonder what HoTS will do to this strat. I think it will still be viable but it will ultimately depend on how fast you can tech to the mothership core in order to do recall harass. | ||
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