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[G] MMA's TvZ Hellion/Banshee Build

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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solid.PhanT
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany144 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-17 17:15:58
April 19 2012 08:44 GMT
#1
[image loading]
Original picture was made by silverfire/Kevin Chang. I edited it

About me:
Hi everyone, I am Phant/SnipeD. Last season I was Rank 18 (810 points) and Rank 10 (880 Points) in master. I am a huge MMA fan and I spent a lot of time on analyzing/watching MMA. I was really impressed by a build he started to use at IEM WC and he also tried to do it at Blizzard Cup in Game 1 vs DRG, but he was interrupted by DRG’s Roach/Ling/Bling push. I am talking about the 1 Rax FE into Blueflamehellion/Banshee, which was already discussed in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321097
This is my first guide and english is not my native language, so feel free to give me some feedback

General goal of the build
+ Show Spoiler +

Your primary goal is to survive the early game and win the game in mid/late game. The opening gives you a great economy, really fast upgrades and a deadly midgame unit composition. You can hit a really strong 2/2 timing attack with blueflame hellions, banshees, marines, marodeurs and medivacs.


Building Groups/ Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
Simple (Buildings)
1) Rax + CC + 2 Gas + Factory
2) CC + Starport + 2x Tech Lab + 2 E-Bays
3) 4 Raxes + Armory + 2 Gas
4) Factory + Gas
5) CC + Ghost Academy

Intermediate (Basic Units + Gas + Ups)
1) 4 Marines + 2 Gas + Bunker
2) 6 Hellions + Banshee + Marines + Stim
3) Marines + 1/1 + 2 Gas + 2 Medivacs + Combat
4) Medivac + Viking + Blueflame + 2/2 + 5th Gas + Hellions + Marauders
5) Hellions + Marauders + Marines + Concussive Shells + Tanks + Moebius

Build Order:
10 Depot
12 Rax --> 4 Marines before Reactor
16 OC
17 CC
17 Depot
18 2x Gas
20 Bunker
25 Factory
31 Starport (Switch to tech lab of Rax)
33 CC
2x Tech Lab [Rax] / 3rd Gas
@ 4 Hellions: 2 Engineering-Bays / 2nd Rax
3x Rax / Reactor (for Rax) on Factory (and after that one more tech lab for the Factory)
@ 100% Reactor: 4th Gas


Unit composition:
+ Show Spoiler +
Marine:
A marine walks into a bar...blabla...one of the worst jokes in starcraft history, but loved by zerg and protoss. Similar to every good matchup the marine is the core of your army and your fast upgrades turn them into marinos, the most dangerous killing machine. :D
Hellions:
You are sick of getting overruned by 100 zerglings, althought you had siege tanks? Blueflame-hellions are insanely good against zerglings and banelings. You will crush armies, which seemed to be a lot bigger than yours.
Marauders:
They are your snipers. A lot of times you can pick off 2 or 3 infestors with a little squad of stimmed marodeurs. Furthermore marodeurs are FAT, which means that fungal growth on a Marine/Marodeure army are a lot weaker than on a pure marine army.
Medivacs:
http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/311700845?t=93m30s nothing to add :D Enough medivacs make fungals and ultras look stupid.
Banshees:
I am not sure what exactly affects MMA's decision whether he researches cloak or not. I prefer to save the 200/200, because a lot of zergs build spores as soon as they see banshees, which means that you can force a lot of spores without researching cloak. Usually I do about the same damage with cloaked banshees as I do with uncloaked banshees, but maybe my micro is just too bad :D
Tanks:
A few months ago zergs realised that they don't really need a lot of banelings. Now it's time for terrans to realise that we don't need that many tanks against a few banelings. Blueflame hellions are a lot better against mass zerglings than tanks are.


Early Game:
+ Show Spoiler +
This build order is greedy and you have to be prepared for all ins. A lot of zergs try to kill you when they see a 1 Rax FE, so you need good bunker- and buildingplacement. Many zergs attack with 4-5 roaches in the early game to apply some pressure, but you can prevent any real damage by repairing the bunker. If they decide to go around your bunker, you have to pull some scvs to reeinforce your 4 marines. Losing some scvs is "ok", but you can prevent it with a bit micro. Unfortunately you don't have any map control in the early game, because you need all your marines for defense.


Against Ling/Infestor:
Mid Game:
+ Show Spoiler +
This situation changes with the first hellions. Scout for fast thirds and try to see his unit composition. You don't have to do anything special with your hellions, but you can't afford to lose them! You need your hellions for the first push. Just try to deny creap and maybe even his third.
At 4 hellions your factory should start to produce some add ons. 1 additional reactor for your raxes and 1 tech lab for blueflame.
When you have two banshees you can try to kill/deny zergs third, if his creepsspread isn't good enough. Otherwise you can kill some drones, but don't lose your banshees! They are really annoying for zerg all game long. Furthermore a lot of zergs overreact to banshees and build 2 spores at each expansion. The banshees are also really good at denying creep and killings units, that are too far away from spores or queens.
You should land your starport on the factory's first reactor to get medivacs and maybe a viking. Now you can start to harass the zerg everywhere: kill overlords with the vikings and start to drop all over the map. You can also do a 1/1 push, but you should not lose your units with this push.
You should do your first real push with 2/2, BF-Hellions, 2 Banshees and MMM. Your marodeurs and hellions are your wall against banelings, while your upgraded marines kill everything. So pull your marines behind the marauders and try to kite lings/blings with your hellions. This unit compositition is really good versus the "new" Infestor/Ling style.


Late Game:
+ Show Spoiler +
Your mobile army should allow you to secure 4 bases pretty quick, so you have a really good economy, which can support a ton of baracks (+10) or 3-4 starports. You need to scout his T3 tech.
If he is going ultras, you will be fine, because you already have the infrastructure for marodeurs. Nonetheless you should add some more tech lab barracks and you should start to produce 2 tanks at a time. (In unsieged-mode they are really good against ultras)
If your opponents is going broodlords, you should add starports and start to produce vikings. Split your vikings! You don't want to lose all your vikings to one fungal. Moreover you should produce some thors to deal with the corrupters and you should use the immobility of his army. Drop his expansions with a few marines and marodeurs (marodeurs kill hatches so fast ).


Against Ling/Bling/Muta:
Mid Game:
+ Show Spoiler +
Obviously you are not able to do a lot of damage with your banshees, because mutas can kill air units and banshee can't. Keep your banshees with your main army, so you can use the high dps of your banshees in big fights. Moreover you need tanks against the mass of banelings, which will come for sure, because this style heavily relies on banelings. You should focus on your marine production because your heavy upgraded marines will kill everything as long as your split is "ok" (my micro is terrible) and you focus fire the banelings with your tanks.


Late Game:
+ Show Spoiler +
Pretty much the same, but usually zergs go for a late hive (because mutas are expensive) and broodlords.


Mech Transition
+ Show Spoiler +
It's also possible to transition into mech after your banshees. Due to the fact that I never play mech, I can't say a lot about it, so I will quote Wasihasi's short summary about the transition:
+ Show Spoiler +

You build Fac/Tech +Fac/(Reactor on Rax) + Starport/(Techlab on Rax). 95% of the time you can deny 3rd with BFH and stealthshees and then just scan main/natural for either spire or roach warren or infestors. While harassing 3rd go up to 4 Facs and Armory, and build 3rd + Siege Tanks (Roach/Infestors) or 3rd + Thors + Turrets (Mutas). From here you are 3 bases and 3 or 4 CCs + Mech vs 2 base Zerg. Enjoy while it lasts

P.S. One is also quite safe vs semi-early busts, BFH couters banes/lings and if you get shee soon enough you can defend against early roaches. I even had a game, were i lost all except 3 scv and still won due to insane mules+3cc scv production.

Thanks Wasihasi!


Maps
+ Show Spoiler +
This build is really strong on maps with a easy to secure third base and a narrow natural like: Antiga Shipyard, Cloud Kingdom, Metropolis, Daybreak, Shakuras Plateau
Metalopolis has a very open natural and its really hard to defend against roach/ling pressure, so I don't recommend you use this build on Metalopolis


Strength/Weaknesses of this build:
+ Show Spoiler +
Strength:
You have a really fast tech and good economy. You can keep up in workerproduction and your upgrades should be at least even with the zerg if not better. The banshees and hellions are really good at killing creaptumors and any unit that gets too far away from spores or queens.
Your composition is really good against zerglings:
[image loading]

Weaknesses:
I haven't seen MMA lose to any all-in/early aggerssion with this build, but unfortunately you are not MMA. Some all-ins are really hard to defend, but you should always keep in mind that you can afford to lose workers. You have 3 orbitals/3 mules and the zerg's tech is delayed if he pushes you.
This build is also weak against two base muta play, because you have only 7-8 marines when the mutas arrive, so you need turrets. If you weren't able to scout his fast spire, you are in huge trouble. Luckily this build isn't really popular at the moment, but I played against it a few times (I didn't have turrets) and the games were really close and I was only able to win, because of huge mistakes by my opponents.
Today I played some games against a zerg, who played mass roach against me and I realised that I need tanks against those roaches and I have to stay a bit more defensive. I recommend that you use your main army to secure bases, while you drop the zerg and deny expansions. (roaches are slow compared to speedlings) When you are close to being maxed you should be able to crush his army.


Defending early aggression:
+ Show Spoiler +
Usually you are not able to scout the zerg's main with hellions, so you have to be in front of his base with your hellions to you see which units are leaving his base.
Roach/Ling/Bling:
+ Show Spoiler +
If you see a lot of roaches and zerglings a roach/ling/bling push/all in is most likely incomming. Look for the morphing banelings and focus them with your banshee(s). Mass repaired bunkers can defend almost everything except banelings. Furthermore you have the possibilty to build marodeurs out of the rax with the tech lab.
NOTE: If you focus fire morphing banelings with your banshees, your banshees will stop focusing the banelings, when they finished their morphing progress. You have to focus them again

Example game: (By far no perfect defense)
http://drop.sc/173616

Mass Zergling/+1
+ Show Spoiler +
If you see a ton of zerglings, there could be a zergling/+1 attack incomming. You should be fine as long as your scvs can surround the bunker and repair nonstop.

Zergling/Roach Push:
+ Show Spoiler +
Mass repair and a second bunker on the high ground should hold off this push. (See game 1 MMA vs Idra @ IPL4)

Zergling/Baneling Push:
+ Show Spoiler +
Focus fire the banelings with hellions and try to mass repair the bunker or hold the high ground
Example Game:
http://drop.sc/181801


General tips:
+ Show Spoiler +
- 6 Pool isn't used that often against terran, so it's a good idea to hide your rax. Often times you can force at least a faster pool or even some additional zerglings.

- Bunker at your third:
One bunker in a good position can win you the game. Here are two examples of good bunker placement:
[image loading]
[image loading]

- I think you should never attack the zerg's main with your main army, because most times it's better defended than the expansions and a zerg without expansions is a dead zerg. So focus on killing his expansions

- You can find a lot of useful tips in this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241247

- more very useful advices, especially about dealing with early aggression were given by dohgg. Thank you!


Day[9]
+ Show Spoiler +
I know that Day[9] just did a daily about this build, but I started this guide a few days ago and it was almost finished when he did his daily.
The title of my guide isn't wrong. MKP uses this build as well, but MMA originally introduced it and MKP also called it the "MMA build" in an interview after his MLG win. [2]
Here is the daily: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-448-p1-marineking-vs-dongraegu-playing-nutty-in-tvz-6096765

Replays/VODs:
+ Show Spoiler +
MMA's games: (I recommend you focus on those)
MMA vs Life @ Iron Squid Game 1(MMM, Hellion, Banshee)/MMA vs Life @ Iron Squid Game 3: (Mech, starts at 35:40)

MMA vs IdrA @ IPL4 both games:
http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/314129429?t=10h26m0s
MMA vs Stephano @IPL4 Game 2:
http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/314361609?t=5h21m30s
He also used it in his SlayerS vs SlayerS matches.

Replays (more focus on tanks):
MMA vs Zenio @ IEM WC Game 1:
http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-18208-0-slayersmma_t_-vs-liquidzenio_z.html
MMA vs Zenio @ IEM WC Game 2:
http://www.sc2replays.eu/show-replay-18209-0-slayersmma_t_-vs-liquidzenio_z.html
MMA vs Dimaga @ IEM Kiev Game 3: (Mech)
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)mTwDIMAGA_vs_(T)SlayersMMA/17687

My own replays (EG doesn't stand for evil geniuses)
http://drop.sc/161877
http://drop.sc/161876
http://drop.sc/161875
http://drop.sc/161874
http://drop.sc/161873
http://drop.sc/161878 (ignore the basetrade and my terrible decision to kill one expansion with my entire army)
http://drop.sc/163678 vs 2 base muta
http://drop.sc/161884 vs roach/ling/bling
I know that my micro is terrible, but as you can see you can still win games with this build.

Sources
+ Show Spoiler +

Original photo of the header can be found here (thanks for allowing me to use it):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327945
It was made by silverfire. Thx for your great photos!
[2] Interview with MKP:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324446



Thx for reading
MMA fighting~~~
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
April 19 2012 08:53 GMT
#2
Ive been looking for this build since i switched to terran 2 weeks ago. with proper splitting it wrecks infestor ling so bad !

Thank you very much!
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
iTzSnypah
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1738 Posts
April 19 2012 09:09 GMT
#3
Random important note about BF hellions: They 2shot lings 99% of the time (only time not is when z +1 armor and your +0 mech attack). Regular hellions 3 shot lings always.
Team Liquid needs more Terrans.
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4541 Posts
April 19 2012 09:15 GMT
#4
nice guide

marodeur = marauder in English
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10332 Posts
April 19 2012 09:16 GMT
#5
EXCELLENT guide! This is so organized, the pictures are awesome, the explanations are detailed and juicy, the guide is easy on the eyes, and it has replays and VODs!

Thanks for making!
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
chambertin
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1704 Posts
April 19 2012 09:28 GMT
#6
Awesome guide, thank you for making this.

Also...
On April 19 2012 18:15 Laurens wrote:
nice guide

marodeur = marauder in English


I think it sounds more interesting that/your way though tbh
"I know one thing, that I know nothing" - Socrates?
Marooned
Profile Joined January 2011
Norway161 Posts
April 19 2012 09:59 GMT
#7
Very nice guide! Thanks!
Wardi
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
England897 Posts
April 19 2012 10:13 GMT
#8
Such an amazing guide, please do make more of these as I'm sure a lot of people will appreciate the time and effort you put into them to make it organise, easy to read and extremely useful.

Thanks a lot!
CommentatorOwner of WardiTV. Streamer, caster & event organizer. / / www.wardi.tv
13JackaL
Profile Joined March 2011
United States577 Posts
April 19 2012 10:27 GMT
#9
Ah coincidence ive been working on this build all week. I'm practicing the variant that NaDa uses which differs in that you get a marauder to fake a marauder hellion rush.

Nevertheless I can help but recall the games MKP owned DRG in and that ridiculous G2 of MMA vs Stephano. It's really nice.
and my axe
jabberjaw
Profile Joined October 2010
225 Posts
April 19 2012 10:45 GMT
#10
Good guide! I've been using a slight variant of this build recently after abandoning demuslim's +1/stim/cs timing.

Today I played some games against a zerg, who played mass roach against me and I realised that I need tanks against those roaches and I have to stay a bit more defensive. I recommend that you use your main army to secure bases, while you drop the zerg and deny expansions. (roaches are slow compared to speedlings) When you are close to being maxed you should be able to crush his army.

I would honestly welcome that kind of response or would like to face that composition. With the banshees, they have no anti-air and you can control the map/watch towers easily.
SEA KarMa
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia452 Posts
April 19 2012 10:54 GMT
#11
very well written guide. thanks!
"terrible, terrible damage". terrible, terrible design.
MetalGear
Profile Joined February 2012
Australia47 Posts
April 19 2012 11:49 GMT
#12
The great thing about this build is it can also transition very nicely into mech as MMA has shown in other games.
Wasihasi
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany36 Posts
April 19 2012 12:17 GMT
#13
I would also pretty much advice anyone to try the mech version of this.

You build Fac/Tech +Fac/(Reactor on Rax) + Starport/(Techlab on Rax). 95% of the time you can deny 3rd with BFH and stealthshees and then just scan main/natural for either spire or roach warren or infestors. While harassing 3rd go up to 4 Facs and Armory, and build 3rd + Siege Tanks (Roach/Infestors) or 3rd + Thors + Turrets (Mutas). From here you are 3 bases and 3 or 4 CCs + Mech vs 2 base Zerg. Enjoy while it lasts

P.S. One is also quite safe vs semi-early busts, BFH couters banes/lings and if you get shee soon enough you can defend against early roaches. I even had a game, were i lost all except 3 scv and still won due to insane mules+3cc scv production.
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
April 19 2012 12:36 GMT
#14
I have been doing this and its very hard to execute well. You need tons of apm to keep the banshee and hellions alive while making your complex infrastructure.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
solid.PhanT
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany144 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-19 12:44:18
April 19 2012 12:40 GMT
#15
Thanks for your feedback

On April 19 2012 18:15 Laurens wrote:
nice guide

marodeur = marauder in English

Thanks for the advice Fixed it

On April 19 2012 19:13 Wardi wrote:
Such an amazing guide, please do make more of these as I'm sure a lot of people will appreciate the time and effort you put into them to make it organise, easy to read and extremely useful.

Thanks a lot!

I can't promise you that I will have the time for more guides, but I will definetly try to do some guides about future MMA builds :D I can't do guides about builds of other players, because I don't use them^^

On April 19 2012 19:45 jabberjaw wrote:
Good guide! I've been using a slight variant of this build recently after abandoning demuslim's +1/stim/cs timing.

Show nested quote +
Today I played some games against a zerg, who played mass roach against me and I realised that I need tanks against those roaches and I have to stay a bit more defensive. I recommend that you use your main army to secure bases, while you drop the zerg and deny expansions. (roaches are slow compared to speedlings) When you are close to being maxed you should be able to crush his army.

I would honestly welcome that kind of response or would like to face that composition. With the banshees, they have no anti-air and you can control the map/watch towers easily.

I think I had a lot of trouble against it, because I underestimated the roaches. Sure you can take map control with the banshees, but roaches are really cheap and he managed to overwhelm me with his 4th or 5th wave of roaches. But maybe I just don't have enough experience against it. You don't face mass roach that often as terran :D

On April 19 2012 21:17 Wasihasi wrote:
I would also pretty much advice anyone to try the mech version of this.

You build Fac/Tech +Fac/(Reactor on Rax) + Starport/(Techlab on Rax). 95% of the time you can deny 3rd with BFH and stealthshees and then just scan main/natural for either spire or roach warren or infestors. While harassing 3rd go up to 4 Facs and Armory, and build 3rd + Siege Tanks (Roach/Infestors) or 3rd + Thors + Turrets (Mutas). From here you are 3 bases and 3 or 4 CCs + Mech vs 2 base Zerg. Enjoy while it lasts

P.S. One is also quite safe vs semi-early busts, BFH couters banes/lings and if you get shee soon enough you can defend against early roaches. I even had a game, were i lost all except 3 scv and still won due to insane mules+3cc scv production.

I totally forgot mech, because I hate playing mech :D Do you allow me to quote your post in the opening post?
I added a mech replay and a mech VOD to the list Unfortunately I have no experience with mech, so I can't write a section about mech on my own.
MMA fighting~~~
Wasihasi
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany36 Posts
April 19 2012 13:08 GMT
#16
Yeah, go ahead, no biggy
KirA_TheGreaT
Profile Joined April 2011
France204 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-19 14:12:01
April 19 2012 13:30 GMT
#17
Nice guide, cool pictures, lot of ressources, TvZ guide of the month !

edit : wrong replay for muta on 2 bases, it's a gold TvT rep :S
dohgg
Profile Joined February 2011
310 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-19 15:59:14
April 19 2012 15:31 GMT
#18
Nice to see you made a great guide from my thread.

I can say it really became my main TvZ build, and i'll point some really importants point bout this build, that i have came with throughout the month i have been playing it.

1. Do not! lose these hellions, no matter what.. have then on an hotkey and keep babysitting them as much as possible, they are a cruical group of your first push/
2. Dunno about the BF option you mentioned, as i didnt c him yet using it, altough, from the replays i saw, his first push (and also mine) is about 6 hellions + 2 banshees + 20 marines with (1)(1), CS and stim + 2 medivacs, the idea of not pushing with 22 is that it'll come much later in the game when things that really counter tanksless pushes are available to the zerg ( fungel and speedbanlings)
3. always get cloak, i think the reason mma sometimes didnt do this is because he know his opp, and he know he wont play vs mutas (aka cutting corners on high lvl), because on ladder we wont know if the zerg is really going for the old fashion 2 base muta play which will tottaly kill cloakless banshees.

General thoughts:
The real "magic" of this build, is that you can outmacro a greedy zerg, and still be able to force aggresion on his 3rd with hellions and banshee w/o losing map control till midgame.
The 2ed great point, is that its really good vs allins, as long as you make good scouting u should never lose to any allin, with proper micro and crysis managments, u should always come ahead of the zerg eventually.
1. never use a bunker as your wall, always have depots infront of it.
2. bring 6-8 SCVs to autorepair, and send the others to ur main, remeber thats its ok to be busted, but the real question is about coming ahead in trading units, so he might be able to bust your natural wall, but busting also your main wall, should be really diffcult for him with 2 banshees grinding him from the sky.
So on bottom line, its ok to lose the 6 SCVs which were repairing your first wall, but u shouldnt be losing more then that if u transfered the rest to ur main.
3. build more bunkers behind your first line bunker and have them ready to deploy to a backward bunker.
4. make maras from ur tech labbed rax.
5. U holded it! great! now its should really be gg, cuz u have cloaked banshee vs some1 with no lair and no evo for spores. (another great reason why cloak is good).
AKomrade
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States582 Posts
April 19 2012 15:38 GMT
#19
Your English is fantastic. Thank you very much for the guide, btw. I've been planning to go over his replays recently to learn it, greatly appreciate the effort you made.
ALL HAIL THE KING IN THE NORTH! HAIL! HAIL!
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
April 19 2012 17:19 GMT
#20
This has been my go-to build ever since MMA showed it, but you still provided a lot of insight into it^^
Great guide.
¯\_(シ)_/¯
solid.PhanT
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany144 Posts
April 20 2012 05:45 GMT
#21
On April 19 2012 22:30 KirA_TheGreaT wrote:
Nice guide, cool pictures, lot of ressources, TvZ guide of the month !

edit : wrong replay for muta on 2 bases, it's a gold TvT rep :S

Thanks for the advice, I changed it.
On April 19 2012 22:30 KirA_TheGreaT wrote:
Nice guide, cool pictures, lot of ressources, TvZ guide of the month !

edit : wrong replay for muta on 2 bases, it's a gold TvT rep :S


On April 20 2012 00:31 dohgg wrote:
2. Dunno about the BF option you mentioned, as i didnt c him yet using it, altough, from the replays i saw, his first push (and also mine) is about 6 hellions + 2 banshees + 20 marines with (1)(1), CS and stim + 2 medivacs, the idea of not pushing with 22 is that it'll come much later in the game when things that really counter tanksless pushes are available to the zerg ( fungel and speedbanlings)

Yes he always does a small push with 1/1, but he doesn't really commit to it. He tries to do damage with it, but he doesn't want to engage with the zergs army, which is really easy if the zerg has no mutas, because he can just load his marines into medivacs and drive away with his hellions. Thx for this advice, I added the 1/1 push to the midgame.


On April 19 2012 22:30 KirA_TheGreaT wrote:
General thoughts:
The real "magic" of this build, is that you can outmacro a greedy zerg, and still be able to force aggresion on his 3rd with hellions and banshee w/o losing map control till midgame.
The 2ed great point, is that its really good vs allins, as long as you make good scouting u should never lose to any allin, with proper micro and crysis managments, u should always come ahead of the zerg eventually.
1. never use a bunker as your wall, always have depots infront of it.
2. bring 6-8 SCVs to autorepair, and send the others to ur main, remeber thats its ok to be busted, but the real question is about coming ahead in trading units, so he might be able to bust your natural wall, but busting also your main wall, should be really diffcult for him with 2 banshees grinding him from the sky.
So on bottom line, its ok to lose the 6 SCVs which were repairing your first wall, but u shouldnt be losing more then that if u transfered the rest to ur main.
3. build more bunkers behind your first line bunker and have them ready to deploy to a backward bunker.
4. make maras from ur tech labbed rax.
5. U holded it! great! now its should really be gg, cuz u have cloaked banshee vs some1 with no lair and no evo for spores. (another great reason why cloak is good).

Thx for your thoughts! I added a link to your post
MMA fighting~~~
ganil
Profile Joined August 2009
253 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-20 07:04:52
April 20 2012 07:04 GMT
#22
On small maps like to throw down 4 additionnal barracks+reactor before the double ebay (just after my 3rd) and then I get only 1 ebay right after.

I allows you to do some really powerfull timing at about 12~13 min on small maps (you'll have a really large army really fast).

I've been doing this for a long time and it's my main tvz buid atm.
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
April 21 2012 16:08 GMT
#23
As a masters Zerg on the ladder, I've found that most people who do this build (and there are a lot of people who are doing it), can't defend a strong 7 minute baneling bust with around 40 lings, 10 banelings. OP, how do you scout if one is coming? Do you include a scan in there somewhere?
Bora Pain minha porra!
Ansinjunger
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2451 Posts
April 21 2012 16:46 GMT
#24
Watching game 1 of Blizzard Cup, it appears MMA was still working on this build, but there are some similarities, like with the triple OC and banshees. I recall Tastosis claiming DRG was ahead if he had only build spores on time, but 22 scv's, forcing spores, and 3 orbitals says otherwise. Your own account of coming back from 3 scvs would support that.


On April 22 2012 01:08 Sbrubbles wrote:
As a masters Zerg on the ladder, I've found that most people who do this build (and there are a lot of people who are doing it), can't defend a strong 7 minute baneling bust with around 40 lings, 10 banelings. OP, how do you scout if one is coming? Do you include a scan in there somewhere?


What's the gas timing like? In other words, how easily can you mask the possibility of that bust based on scv getting a scout seeing gas harvesting? I imagine terran has time to react or we'd see high level players losing this way.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 21 2012 17:21 GMT
#25
I love the weaknesses of this build: "Unfortunately, you are not MMA so you will probably die to all-ins!"

A lot of good information here, though I'd love to see a few replay or screenshot examples for the "Defending early aggression" sections.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
dohgg
Profile Joined February 2011
310 Posts
April 21 2012 22:18 GMT
#26
On April 22 2012 01:08 Sbrubbles wrote:
As a masters Zerg on the ladder, I've found that most people who do this build (and there are a lot of people who are doing it), can't defend a strong 7 minute baneling bust with around 40 lings, 10 banelings. OP, how do you scout if one is coming? Do you include a scan in there somewhere?


It just something that u learn with timing, as for example when my first 2 hellions popout (6:30) and i see way 2 much lings (like 10+) for such timing on the xelnaga, its a good sign.

I wont say that i didnt die to such timing attack, but i will say that i also manged to hold it quite some times. i think that it all comes to the terran crysis managments micro, send the 1st banshee asap to snipe banlings, and wall as much as u can your front, with transfering scvs from ur nat to ur main is one of the most importants issues. its all about trading, and when the zerg is forced to trade banes on more and more buildings, like your natural heavy wall + bunkers + ur main wall - w/o actually killing SCVs and meanwhile being focused fired from the sky by banshees. then u'll come ahead.
Wasihasi
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany36 Posts
April 21 2012 23:30 GMT
#27
Yeah, i'm actually more afraid of either early roaches because they are normally hiting just as i started banshee, so most of the time the hold is quite cost-ineffective.

Right now i scan his main as soon as both Facs are ready.
If there is Roach warren, i will siege and produce tanks+hellions plus banshees as soon as possible.
If there is a baneling nest, i will make hellions, do blue flame and and wait for his bust to arrive. As soon as it is there, i will pull the scvs in to the main and raise the depots. Hellions are in the natural and i try to kite the zerglings, while waiting for the reinforcment of the new hellions. Banshees are semi-effective - against zerglings they are wasted, but catching some banes is very good.
Unkown User Request
Profile Joined April 2011
United States26 Posts
April 22 2012 10:58 GMT
#28
--- Nuked ---
solid.PhanT
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany144 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-01 05:23:24
April 23 2012 08:13 GMT
#29
On April 22 2012 01:08 Sbrubbles wrote:
As a masters Zerg on the ladder, I've found that most people who do this build (and there are a lot of people who are doing it), can't defend a strong 7 minute baneling bust with around 40 lings, 10 banelings. OP, how do you scout if one is coming? Do you include a scan in there somewhere?

I try to scout it with my first two hellions. If I see a lot of lings or even some banelings I build two bunkers on the high ground and lift my natural OC. I let at least one marine in the bunker at my natural, so the zerg maybe wastes some banelings for a bunker and a marine. Moreover I try to kill as many zerglings/banelings with my hellions on his way to my base.

On April 22 2012 02:21 TangSC wrote:
I love the weaknesses of this build: "Unfortunately, you are not MMA so you will probably die to all-ins!"

A lot of good information here, though I'd love to see a few replay or screenshot examples for the "Defending early aggression" sections.

I will add replays as soon as I face early aggression again, but most zergs just try to play a standart game, so it will take some time. Thanks for your feedback

Sry that I wasn't able to upload replays/pictures for the defense of early aggression, but zergs simply don't all in me at the moment
MMA fighting~~~
Kamelixs
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden88 Posts
May 02 2012 18:56 GMT
#30
Great guide!
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
May 29 2012 23:37 GMT
#31
Hi I'm interested in integrating this into my playstyle.

I do have a question - is getting the cloak actually worth it? because from what a friend in my clan (who's in masters, zerg) says, that he doesn't think that it's worth getting the cloak (just the 2 banshees), even if they force 2-3 spores at each base

can someone shed some light on reasons to get cloak or not? :D? thanks
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
yaRus
Profile Joined February 2011
Russian Federation68 Posts
May 30 2012 09:32 GMT
#32
Please, check this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340896

It would be great if you post some replays where you defend your openin against 2 base LingBling bust, RoachLing bust and finaly Roach-Bling bust. Because Cloak transition if most varnulable to this pushes and i wish to see how you terrans defend such a thing.
yaRus
Profile Joined February 2011
Russian Federation68 Posts
May 30 2012 09:33 GMT
#33
can someone shed some light on reasons to get cloak or not? :D? thanks


It is obvious - you can't harras on this timing without cloak. You can't force spores without cloak (against inteligent zerg). You even on most maps can't deny 3rd without cloak. With cloak you can do all this things.
solid.PhanT
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany144 Posts
May 30 2012 15:48 GMT
#34
I agree with yaRus. When I wrote the guide, I didn't research cloak, but with the new siege queen, zergs can take a third really early and even connect it with creep, so I recommend you to get cloak.

It's really hard to upload replays vs those all ins, because either the zerg executes it poorly or I defend like a bronze player... I have only been able to upload one replay for each all in since my last post (2012-05-01). I will continue to add them as I play them.
MMA fighting~~~
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
May 31 2012 05:46 GMT
#35
him: nonono
i disagree
200/200 waaaay too much on the offchance they odnt have a spore
me: or I could just ask mma why he gets cloak
or mkp himself
>_>
him: idc who does it like that
realistically the cloak shouldnt help vs a good zerg
me: mma, mkp, almost all the pros that goes this style......................


is the banshees+cloak for map control, because then the 200/200 isn't for actually doing damage, right?

@@
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
Killmouse
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria5700 Posts
May 31 2012 17:30 GMT
#36
The problem with this bo is that since the new patch many zergs getting 4 -5 queens so they kill easy the banshee amd by that time cloack hits , lair is already finish for zergs
yo
Nimix
Profile Joined October 2011
France1809 Posts
June 07 2012 17:06 GMT
#37
Instead of getting cloak you can get 2 banshees and then a raven, and use it to deny creep (PDD queen's attack + detection). I think I saw Demuslim doing it quite a lot on his stream, and it's really nice to be able to shut down creep spread completely. I also think he sometimes both upgrade cloak and make a raven.
Also, it's a minor thing but against banelings blue flame is useless, as banelings are not light (they have only biological as attribute). It's still worth getting of course, but some sentences in the op and other posts could mislead to thinking that BF hellions are actually better than standard ones against banes.
dynwar7
Profile Joined May 2011
1983 Posts
June 08 2012 16:35 GMT
#38
I am wondering why early game,MMA makes his CC right after first fact finishes...

Why, just why? For stronger econ and nowhere to spend minerals on? What about making Barracks for marines andBunkers to hold off early presure?

Or does this build rely so much on getting quick 3rd CC?
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Jazzman88
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada2228 Posts
June 08 2012 17:20 GMT
#39
On June 09 2012 01:35 dynwar7 wrote:
I am wondering why early game,MMA makes his CC right after first fact finishes...

Why, just why? For stronger econ and nowhere to spend minerals on? What about making Barracks for marines andBunkers to hold off early presure?

Or does this build rely so much on getting quick 3rd CC?


The explicit intent of Hellion/Banshee pressure is to get that quick 3rd. Hellion/Banshee is such a fast, mobile composition with a lethal effectiveness in wiping out drone lines, so the Zerg is forced to play a bit defensively if you don't fuck up your control of the units (i.e. losing your first Banshee to Spore Crawlers). So the 3rd CC is the 'sting' of the build, which sets you up beautifully for the transition into more standard Marine/Tank aggression OR mech play without the weakness of trying to establish a tankless third with just MMM.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 17:26:37
June 08 2012 17:26 GMT
#40
On June 08 2012 02:06 Nimix wrote:
Instead of getting cloak you can get 2 banshees and then a raven, and use it to deny creep (PDD queen's attack + detection). I think I saw Demuslim doing it quite a lot on his stream, and it's really nice to be able to shut down creep spread completely. I also think he sometimes both upgrade cloak and make a raven.
Also, it's a minor thing but against banelings blue flame is useless, as banelings are not light (they have only biological as attribute). It's still worth getting of course, but some sentences in the op and other posts could mislead to thinking that BF hellions are actually better than standard ones against banes.

Someone tried this against me yesterday and as soon as their raven + 2 banshees were out on the map for about 10 sec I had mutas out and killed them all. You have to be very careful about it and scout if your opponent is going infestors or mutas.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
DawN883
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden558 Posts
June 08 2012 19:05 GMT
#41
Super great guide!
If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die
dynwar7
Profile Joined May 2011
1983 Posts
June 09 2012 02:16 GMT
#42
On June 09 2012 02:20 Jazzman88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2012 01:35 dynwar7 wrote:
I am wondering why early game,MMA makes his CC right after first fact finishes...

Why, just why? For stronger econ and nowhere to spend minerals on? What about making Barracks for marines andBunkers to hold off early presure?

Or does this build rely so much on getting quick 3rd CC?


The explicit intent of Hellion/Banshee pressure is to get that quick 3rd. Hellion/Banshee is such a fast, mobile composition with a lethal effectiveness in wiping out drone lines, so the Zerg is forced to play a bit defensively if you don't fuck up your control of the units (i.e. losing your first Banshee to Spore Crawlers). So the 3rd CC is the 'sting' of the build, which sets you up beautifully for the transition into more standard Marine/Tank aggression OR mech play without the weakness of trying to establish a tankless third with just MMM.


Yeah I heard that for mech you need 3 bases to reach its full potential. ANd I like to mech TvZ.

But looking at that replay of mma vs dimaga, even though mma made n early 3rd CC, he actually didnt build it at a new expansion, it was built just above his spawning CC. so when do you actually transfer ot a new expansion? Or is the 3rd CC just there to pump SCVs?
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
SEA KarMa
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia452 Posts
June 09 2012 02:53 GMT
#43
good writeup, thanks
"terrible, terrible damage". terrible, terrible design.
-niL
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada1131 Posts
June 09 2012 02:54 GMT
#44
I love this build, I have been destroying zergs with this build!
Vies
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia57 Posts
June 11 2012 03:26 GMT
#45
Great guide and lots of insightful comments.

I just have one major question with this build... How do you stop gas steal? Because you drop CC on 16 and delay the 2nd depot you can't block the drone from getting in your base. When my marine pops I don't seem to have 75 minerals to make a refinery and block the gas steal. Does anyone have experience with this?

Thanks again for the great guide.

Vanchen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
55 Posts
June 11 2012 03:31 GMT
#46
On June 11 2012 12:26 Vies wrote:
Great guide and lots of insightful comments.

I just have one major question with this build... How do you stop gas steal? Because you drop CC on 16 and delay the 2nd depot you can't block the drone from getting in your base. When my marine pops I don't seem to have 75 minerals to make a refinery and block the gas steal. Does anyone have experience with this?

Thanks again for the great guide.


Well you have an expo right? Can't you just make a gas there and one in your main?
ST_Bomber|SKLGIM_MC|
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
June 11 2012 04:22 GMT
#47
On June 11 2012 12:26 Vies wrote:
Great guide and lots of insightful comments.

I just have one major question with this build... How do you stop gas steal? Because you drop CC on 16 and delay the 2nd depot you can't block the drone from getting in your base. When my marine pops I don't seem to have 75 minerals to make a refinery and block the gas steal. Does anyone have experience with this?

Thanks again for the great guide.


Make 3rd CC faster and take the gas in your natural when that finishes. There are examples of builds like that used recently in GSL even when there was no gas steal.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
Battousai13
Profile Joined September 2010
United States638 Posts
June 11 2012 04:49 GMT
#48
I'm guessing this build is being nerco-ed because PuMa was showing off a similar build against Zerg, at MLG today?
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
June 11 2012 04:57 GMT
#49
On June 11 2012 13:49 Battousai13 wrote:
I'm guessing this build is being nerco-ed because PuMa was showing off a similar build against Zerg, at MLG today?

This build has been one of the best in TvZ for at least the last 3 months. PuMa is only one of many pros who are uses it currently.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
Vies
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia57 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-11 09:13:12
June 11 2012 09:12 GMT
#50
On June 11 2012 13:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2012 12:26 Vies wrote:
Great guide and lots of insightful comments.

I just have one major question with this build... How do you stop gas steal? Because you drop CC on 16 and delay the 2nd depot you can't block the drone from getting in your base. When my marine pops I don't seem to have 75 minerals to make a refinery and block the gas steal. Does anyone have experience with this?

Thanks again for the great guide.


Make 3rd CC faster and take the gas in your natural when that finishes. There are examples of builds like that used recently in GSL even when there was no gas steal.


Thanks for the reply.

I am not sure how I can make CC faster as I put it down as soon as i reach 400 minerals (after first marine/OC) Do I cut marine or something here?

Hopefully I can find a game in GSL where this happened, haven't been lucky enough to find one yet. If anyone knows a game where this build was done after gas steal I'd appreciate it.

Also if you make gas at expo does this delay your gas? If so by how much?
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-11 13:58:45
June 11 2012 13:57 GMT
#51
On June 11 2012 18:12 Vies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2012 13:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On June 11 2012 12:26 Vies wrote:
Great guide and lots of insightful comments.

I just have one major question with this build... How do you stop gas steal? Because you drop CC on 16 and delay the 2nd depot you can't block the drone from getting in your base. When my marine pops I don't seem to have 75 minerals to make a refinery and block the gas steal. Does anyone have experience with this?

Thanks again for the great guide.


Make 3rd CC faster and take the gas in your natural when that finishes. There are examples of builds like that used recently in GSL even when there was no gas steal.


Thanks for the reply.

I am not sure how I can make CC faster as I put it down as soon as i reach 400 minerals (after first marine/OC) Do I cut marine or something here?

Hopefully I can find a game in GSL where this happened, haven't been lucky enough to find one yet. If anyone knows a game where this build was done after gas steal I'd appreciate it.

Also if you make gas at expo does this delay your gas? If so by how much?

I was saying to take your third base faster than you would normally, as you will have extra minerals and later gas. You can get the natural up in time to take another gas after that and your tech will only be a little later than otherwise. I don't quite remember specific games, but I think either ZENEX_Life or TSL_Symbol was gas stealing and forcing the terrans to do this. Polt memorably pulled like 7 scvs to kill the gas and make sure he got it.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
megid
Profile Joined November 2011
Brazil142 Posts
June 22 2012 16:27 GMT
#52
Well, it's the best build for the actually meta TvZ yet i think.
Ope
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 14:06:35
August 10 2012 12:31 GMT
#53
Very nice guide! MMA rocks this matchup. :-D
But I`ve got a questionmark in my mind: I don`t get this build order actually...

Build Order:
10 Depot
12 Rax --> 4 Marines before Reactor
16 OC
17 CC
17 Depot
18 2x Gas
20 Bunker
25 Factory
31 Starport (Switch to tech lab of Rax)
33 CC
2x Tech Lab [Rax] / 3rd Gas
@ 4 Hellions: 2 Engineering-Bays / 2nd Rax
3x Rax / Reactor (for Rax) on Factory (and after that one more tech lab for the Factory)
@ 100% Reactor: 4th Gas

How can you switch the Starport to the Tech-Lab of the Barracks if there is a Reactor on it (after the 4 Marines)?
Could you upload a replay from yourself playin`this build, please? I`ve already watched the replays of MMA but it`s not that easy to get everything what he was doing (the casters weren`t only focussing at MMA of course^^). So I hope you can do that for me (and maybe for others, too).

Greetings

P.S.: Keep on doing such stuff, I think it`s helping people like me a lot :-)
solid.PhanT
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany144 Posts
August 10 2012 14:32 GMT
#54
Hi Ope

unfortunately I dont have a current replay from of me playing this build, because I stopped using it (mass queens destroy it...)
But there are already some replays in the opener (Spoiler "Replays/VODs", the last 8 replays).

First of all you build 4 Marines before you build a reactor. Than you switch the factory with your barracks and build a tech lab on your barracks. So you have a factory (reactor) and a barracks (building tech lab) when you start your starport. Then you can switch the starport to the tech lab. I hope you understand :D If not...add me in battle.net (Phant 227) and I will try to show you :D


Thanks for your feedback
I will do a new guide as soon as I find a new amazing MMA build :D
MMA fighting~~~
Ope
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 14:40:53
August 10 2012 14:40 GMT
#55
Ah thanks, just saw the replay spoiler myself^^ And also thanks for your explanation, the build order was kind of confusing for me as a low league player :-)

I`ve understood what you were explaining but I`ll just go ahead and add you in battle.net anyways :-P It`s always good to have a few persons you can ask some questions from time to time (just if you don`t mind). And then we could switch from english to german I guess^^

So thanks again and GL HF!
padfoota
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Taiwan1571 Posts
April 06 2013 10:07 GMT
#56
I am now super curious on using this build and using BFH/Hellbat/Mines rather than banshees once early game comes around. The opener will still remain the same.
Stop procrastinating
HanSomPa
Profile Joined December 2012
United States87 Posts
April 06 2013 14:57 GMT
#57
Super necro padfoota
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
TheWickedDuck
Profile Joined January 2011
19 Posts
April 06 2013 16:01 GMT
#58
lolololol balance
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