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Alright so first of all, excuse me for my lousy english 
So i have noticed this opening on the latest IEM WC, On the series between mma and liquid.zenio, on the 2 first maps, antiga and cloudkindom, the 2 games had almost the same build while on the 1st one mma went with cloak and on the 2ed one w/o.
Basically, the builds goes with a 1 rax FE -> double gas -> reactors hellions (6) with a 3rd in base -> into double banshees.. not so easy to executed.
The main issue about with this build is that its really greedy, gives you the option to deny early 3rd with banshee esciaplly if 3rd isnt connected with creeps so quiness cant help much, 6 hellions is good amount to micro vs speedlings, and since its like a really rush to 2 banshees you also can hold 2 bases roaches banes busts.. the 1s banshee comes out on 8:30 min.
Any thought about it?
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As you stated - this is a greedy opening. In my opinion this cannot hold a commited(allin) 2 base roach/ling/bane bust that can hit very early depending on when the zerg took his gas and how much larvea he devoted to drones.
You may refer to: Tang's roach bane bust zvt guide
This is an allin off of 22 drones, hits at 8:20 when you will have a total of 4-6 helions(you will need to stop helion production after 4 to add more barracks and transition) and 1 banshee with the zerg having: 8 Roaches, 6-8 Banelings, and 30 Zerglings.
When going 1 rax FE into double gas->factory->helions, the helions will pop out around the 7 min mark, when the decision to go allin by the zerg has allready been made(These helions also pop out too late to scout and deal with quick roach allins). There might be a spine crawler-queen block denying the helions information untill its too late to react at all. The helions might even die to the agressive ling count. You may scout lots of lings/roaches with the helions and realise this is an allin but it will probably be too late to get some marauders/tanks/bunkers in time.
While the banshees will hover in the air and achieve incredible 2 digit kill score, the terran player will have lost all his mining scvs and by the time the banshees actually clean up all the roaches/banes terran will be forced to gg. The helions may deal some damage to the lings/banes but good control from the zerg player will easily bust the natural and main base of the Terran without losing all the ling/banes to the helions and destroying the terran's economy.
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Well.. ofc.. as any greedy build, zergs allins and the strongest are quite hard to deal with, and it'll almost come down to a matter of micro and target firing banes, cuz roaches can be dealt with repaired bunkers, however, the banshee firepower will sure not be enough if the zerg went for a really heavy banes composition, but dont forget that the bigger the map, the more fire time the banshee will have on the zergs, and as soon as the 2ed banshee pops, 2 banshees can 1 shot banes.
However, dont forget that when you try to defend an allin, sacrficing SCVs to hold isnt really a bad thing.
One more thing i would like to point out, is that when we're looking on the variety of greedy builds for terran, you can find a whole lot of weaker builds, like rushing for meds or upgrades, even w/o a 3rd cc. the banshee aspect gives u abit of an defensive/offensive path, while even forcing few spores is already damage done.
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Frankly, it seems like MMA started employing this build (with one starport instead of two) way back in IPL3 when Lucky kept all-inning him  . MMA's style is typically weak to early and midgame attacks, so this seems like his solution. Unfortunately, with the big investment in hellion/banshee, your regular marine/tank timings are delayed, so you're relying on the banshees to deny expansions. If he scouts that you're going banshees, he can just rush to mutalisks and defend against the hellions and banshees.
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It's not the same build, but it's a safer version I've been using for some time, and I cannot remember the last time I've lost to an allin. The key is to scout with the reaper, additional damage is great, but your primary goal is scouting.
12rax/13gas/15 tech lab/15 supply/15 reaper (basically reaper expo >.>) 18 CC
2nd Gas as soon as cc is down
after 1 reaper pull rax off tech lab, you'll have 150 gas
make a reactor with your barracks and build a factory, swap when complete
@factory completion throw down starport on your tech lab
build 6 hellions to deny creep then transition however you'd like. Personally I get cloak and a third immediately but to each his own
As long as you scout gas mined and check drone count/queen count, you should see an allin coming miles ahead of time, just don't float your cc out, build a bunker, and rines along with hellions until your banshee is out, hotkey auto repair scvs and micro half decently and you win.
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as a high master zerg player I think the banshee is the best unit to have vs the roach bane all in
Step 1 -Helions scout it coming
Step 2 - Fortify your main base wall with rax/factory/CCs... ANYTHING BUT 1 DEPOT... just sack your expansion and put as many buildings as you can in the way. With a giant wall and a banshee shooting overhead the zerg has no choice but to run home.
when you see roaches coming, you want to run around the roaches and camp the zerg entrance, trying to pick off reinforcing zerglings.
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I don't think a roach bane allin is anything like the auto-win some people made it out to be- you just need a barracks wall and suddenly banelings become stupid.
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I tried this build and it wasn't really that great. Sure it denies a quick third but it's a stupid build if they go muta off 2 base and then expand. All you'll have is a coulple of hellions, marines, 2 banshees and maybe 1-2 tank. You can't really punish the zerg after the mutas come out. Hellion expand still works better for me.
Of the two, I think the cloakless option is better. You might still get roach busted if you go cloak first.
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Same build was excuted just now on antiga on MKP vs DRG... really well excuted by mkp
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On March 26 2012 08:35 dohgg wrote:
Same build was excuted just now on antiga on MKP vs DRG... really well excuted by mkp
not the same.. MKP went No gas fe-> hellion+cloak banshee-> 3rd CC and MMA did it no gas fe-> reactor hellion FE-> claok banshee
against a 2 base roach bling all-in its really hard and you will loose much but with your cloak its gg for the zerg... i played this build a couple times and never loose against roach bling but i'm just plat... the banshee start at 7:30 compared with the forgg style it's 1 min later but your follow up will have +2 and 2 thors more in the mix.
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On March 26 2012 23:51 saaaa wrote:
not the same.. MKP went No gas fe-> hellion+cloak banshee-> 3rd CC and MMA did it no gas fe-> reactor hellion FE-> claok banshee
You might want to read the original post?
On March 25 2012 00:00 dohgg wrote:
Basically, the builds goes with a 1 rax FE -> double gas -> reactors hellions (6) with a 3rd in base -> into double banshees.. not so easy to executed.
Compare those and think before you post please.
MKP did in fact do this exact strategy. Actually his winners bracket play vs DRG was a showcase for FE into immediate double gas flexibility. He also went Thor/Siege Tank/mass-blue-flame-hellion and Thor/Marine/Hellion/Medivac off the same opening described in the OP. Looks like the new style imo. The micro required looked devastatingly intensive, but he was playing DRG after all. :O
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its good cause hellions take control of the map, and zerg does not have good anti-air capabilities in the early game. The zerg army virtually has no anti-air in the early-mid game.
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In my opinion, "this build dies to a well-executed roach/bane all-in" shouldn't be a factor in the viability of the build. A great deal of non-standard openings die to roach/bane all-ins. The beauty of this build which both MMA and MKP did against top Zerg players is that it is designed to go against good players who know how to expand. 2-base Muta is rapidly becoming obsolete in the metagame because of the continued increase in marine control proficiency by the average Terran player, and I wouldn't worry too much about this.
If you watched the MKP/DRG game, you'll note that DRG actually went for a heavy Roach/Zergling attack in response to this build, and it flopped horribly. The timing window for a roach/bane all-in fades very quickly, because once 2+ Banshees and Blue Flame hit the field, there's no way to keep up with the cost efficiency of the Terran army. After the initial Hellion/Banshee pressure, you can flood Marine/Marauder/Medivac as a backup, and the harassment will keep the Zerg army and defenses low enough that you can switch into that composition with very little to fear.
Also think of what the Zerg has to do to react in time with a roach/bane all-in:
Zerg sees 1-rax FE with normal Overlord, flies away so as not to lose it to marines, expands as normal.
Using smart Overlord placement, Zerg sees PROBABLY one of your two gases; if they're very lucky or nervous, they'll sack an Overlord to see both.
Zerg sees that you are teching, and now has to choose: hit you or no? If so, with what? If he chooses the roach-bane all-in, nice. However, an economical 2-base Baneling bust may seem better to him, and would in actuality be much worse.
If he chooses not to go, he just tries to take a third.
If the Zerg takes an early third, he plays right into your hands, as demonstrated in the games cited. If he chooses to go for the attack, he has to make that judgement in a split second, not knowing whether or not you'll have enough hellions/tanks in time to hold it. In addition, if you somehow manage to hold, he's done. Many Zergs will see this as a standard delayed reactor-hellion expand, and not the double harass play that it is, which is the strength of this build.
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On March 27 2012 07:28 Jazzman88 wrote:
If you watched the MKP/DRG game, you'll note that DRG actually went for a heavy Roach/Zergling attack in response to this build, and it flopped horribly.
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read that, but I don't want zergs to know it! Sure send 7-10 Roaches at me and think you've done something special... I 'll just kite them all the way across the map and then run by your defenseless base as u push vs my siege tank(s) and bunker(s) being repaired. I see one roach, i immediately cancel factory production and pump at least a pair of siege tank/marauder.
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I agree, ppl are always looking to blame builds for being bad cuz they are dying to X allin or to Y allin. but forgeting that greedy builds are killing standard builds on the long term of the game.
And as i said before, banshees are a great unit to give you the abilty to be greedy.
For example, MKP lost the first game on the finals on shakuras because he was greedy, but won the majority of the series for the same reason, being greedy, it basically comes to mind games on such levels, but going 2 base allin is the harder decision to make, and usally its a decision that must be developed while in game, while playing greedy is something that being decided pre-game, therefore the advantage.
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On March 27 2012 06:48 mrdeath5493 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 23:51 saaaa wrote:
not the same.. MKP went No gas fe-> hellion+cloak banshee-> 3rd CC and MMA did it no gas fe-> reactor hellion FE-> claok banshee
You might want to read the original post? Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 00:00 dohgg wrote:
Basically, the builds goes with a 1 rax FE -> double gas -> reactors hellions (6) with a 3rd in base -> into double banshees.. not so easy to executed. Compare those and think before you post please. MKP did in fact do this exact strategy. Actually his winners bracket play vs DRG was a showcase for FE into immediate double gas flexibility. He also went Thor/Siege Tank/mass-blue-flame-hellion and Thor/Marine/Hellion/Medivac off the same opening described in the OP. Looks like the new style imo. The micro required looked devastatingly intensive, but he was playing DRG after all. :O
MMA did this kind of build against Dimaga on Shakura's Plateau and this match he went for no gas fe -> reactor hellion fe-> cloak banshee, which i like more because u have really high economy and don't delay the starport etc.
It's just different because he followed this style by a thor+bf hellion push which came at 13:30-14:00 with 4 Thors and hellion and +1 (nearly +2 finished). With this follow up you don't have to be afraid of mutalisk.
About the cloak: i would always go for cloak because it's really rarely that the zerg is totally covered with spores and if he is you have forced a lot of spores which cut into his drone count and you are able to deny a third till he gets mutalisk and you want against the follow up 3 base roach to hold it properly without pulling drones as zerg.
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Can anyone explain to me when its about to take Gas in this opening?
On liquipedia there ist Only the  Double Gas FE build. It suggests taking 1st and 2nd Gas at 19 Food right before FE. As i am watching some streams i barely didnt ever recognize any player using that strat instead taking double Gas right after FE (no appropriate article on liquipedia btw). Well i know i could just download the replays but Actually i not possible right now (Bad inet connection; university; etc ;o) )
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On March 27 2012 23:36 iOwn wrote:Can anyone explain to me when its about to take Gas in this opening? On liquipedia there ist Only the Double Gas FE build. It suggests taking 1st and 2nd Gas at 19 Food right before FE. As i am watching some streams i barely didnt ever recognize any player using that strat instead taking double Gas right after FE (no appropriate article on liquipedia btw). Well i know i could just download the replays but Actually i not possible right now (Bad inet connection; university; etc ;o) )
yeah right after 2nd CC both gas with 3 worker ... the time is around 3:50
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I tried this build again after seeing MMA use this same build once more against his teammate Min. I guess I was doing it wrong by poking the zerg with my hellions. Save the hellions until banshees pop, keep them alive to hold catch tower and to stop ling scouting. Also, I was always scared of a roach bust because of my low army count so I made tanks instead of medivacs first, which is a mistake.
keep hellions alive for as long as possible
banshee first, then cloak then second banshee
dont send banshees straight to zerg's main or natural, deny the third first and clear creep with them
build a faster third than zerg
medivacs before tanks if you're not getting roach busted or if you're going marine route instead of tank/thor
get cloak just in case they go mass queen, double evo, infestor style.
I lost a game due to FE mass roach/ling rush, even with the banshee popping, there was just too many stuff hitting me. I will contribute that to fail scouting tho.
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EPT
