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On April 19 2012 22:30 KirA_TheGreaT wrote:
Nice guide, cool pictures, lot of ressources, TvZ guide of the month !
edit : wrong replay for muta on 2 bases, it's a gold TvT rep :S
Thanks for the advice, I changed it.
On April 19 2012 22:30 KirA_TheGreaT wrote:
Nice guide, cool pictures, lot of ressources, TvZ guide of the month !
edit : wrong replay for muta on 2 bases, it's a gold TvT rep :S
On April 20 2012 00:31 dohgg wrote:
2. Dunno about the BF option you mentioned, as i didnt c him yet using it, altough, from the replays i saw, his first push (and also mine) is about 6 hellions + 2 banshees + 20 marines with (1)(1), CS and stim + 2 medivacs, the idea of not pushing with 22 is that it'll come much later in the game when things that really counter tanksless pushes are available to the zerg ( fungel and speedbanlings)
Yes he always does a small push with 1/1, but he doesn't really commit to it. He tries to do damage with it, but he doesn't want to engage with the zergs army, which is really easy if the zerg has no mutas, because he can just load his marines into medivacs and drive away with his hellions. Thx for this advice, I added the 1/1 push to the midgame.
On April 19 2012 22:30 KirA_TheGreaT wrote:
General thoughts:
The real "magic" of this build, is that you can outmacro a greedy zerg, and still be able to force aggresion on his 3rd with hellions and banshee w/o losing map control till midgame.
The 2ed great point, is that its really good vs allins, as long as you make good scouting u should never lose to any allin, with proper micro and crysis managments, u should always come ahead of the zerg eventually.
1. never use a bunker as your wall, always have depots infront of it.
2. bring 6-8 SCVs to autorepair, and send the others to ur main, remeber thats its ok to be busted, but the real question is about coming ahead in trading units, so he might be able to bust your natural wall, but busting also your main wall, should be really diffcult for him with 2 banshees grinding him from the sky.
So on bottom line, its ok to lose the 6 SCVs which were repairing your first wall, but u shouldnt be losing more then that if u transfered the rest to ur main.
3. build more bunkers behind your first line bunker and have them ready to deploy to a backward bunker.
4. make maras from ur tech labbed rax.
5. U holded it! great! now its should really be gg, cuz u have cloaked banshee vs some1 with no lair and no evo for spores. (another great reason why cloak is good).
Thx for your thoughts! I added a link to your post 
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On small maps like to throw down 4 additionnal barracks+reactor before the double ebay (just after my 3rd) and then I get only 1 ebay right after.
I allows you to do some really powerfull timing at about 12~13 min on small maps (you'll have a really large army really fast).
I've been doing this for a long time and it's my main tvz buid atm.
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As a masters Zerg on the ladder, I've found that most people who do this build (and there are a lot of people who are doing it), can't defend a strong 7 minute baneling bust with around 40 lings, 10 banelings. OP, how do you scout if one is coming? Do you include a scan in there somewhere?
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Watching game 1 of Blizzard Cup, it appears MMA was still working on this build, but there are some similarities, like with the triple OC and banshees. I recall Tastosis claiming DRG was ahead if he had only build spores on time, but 22 scv's, forcing spores, and 3 orbitals says otherwise. Your own account of coming back from 3 scvs would support that.
On April 22 2012 01:08 Sbrubbles wrote:
As a masters Zerg on the ladder, I've found that most people who do this build (and there are a lot of people who are doing it), can't defend a strong 7 minute baneling bust with around 40 lings, 10 banelings. OP, how do you scout if one is coming? Do you include a scan in there somewhere?
What's the gas timing like? In other words, how easily can you mask the possibility of that bust based on scv getting a scout seeing gas harvesting? I imagine terran has time to react or we'd see high level players losing this way.
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I love the weaknesses of this build: "Unfortunately, you are not MMA so you will probably die to all-ins!"
A lot of good information here, though I'd love to see a few replay or screenshot examples for the "Defending early aggression" sections.
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On April 22 2012 01:08 Sbrubbles wrote:
As a masters Zerg on the ladder, I've found that most people who do this build (and there are a lot of people who are doing it), can't defend a strong 7 minute baneling bust with around 40 lings, 10 banelings. OP, how do you scout if one is coming? Do you include a scan in there somewhere?
It just something that u learn with timing, as for example when my first 2 hellions popout (6:30) and i see way 2 much lings (like 10+) for such timing on the xelnaga, its a good sign.
I wont say that i didnt die to such timing attack, but i will say that i also manged to hold it quite some times. i think that it all comes to the terran crysis managments micro, send the 1st banshee asap to snipe banlings, and wall as much as u can your front, with transfering scvs from ur nat to ur main is one of the most importants issues. its all about trading, and when the zerg is forced to trade banes on more and more buildings, like your natural heavy wall + bunkers + ur main wall - w/o actually killing SCVs and meanwhile being focused fired from the sky by banshees. then u'll come ahead.
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Yeah, i'm actually more afraid of either early roaches because they are normally hiting just as i started banshee, so most of the time the hold is quite cost-ineffective.
Right now i scan his main as soon as both Facs are ready.
If there is Roach warren, i will siege and produce tanks+hellions plus banshees as soon as possible.
If there is a baneling nest, i will make hellions, do blue flame and and wait for his bust to arrive. As soon as it is there, i will pull the scvs in to the main and raise the depots. Hellions are in the natural and i try to kite the zerglings, while waiting for the reinforcment of the new hellions. Banshees are semi-effective - against zerglings they are wasted, but catching some banes is very good.
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On April 22 2012 01:08 Sbrubbles wrote:
As a masters Zerg on the ladder, I've found that most people who do this build (and there are a lot of people who are doing it), can't defend a strong 7 minute baneling bust with around 40 lings, 10 banelings. OP, how do you scout if one is coming? Do you include a scan in there somewhere?
I try to scout it with my first two hellions. If I see a lot of lings or even some banelings I build two bunkers on the high ground and lift my natural OC. I let at least one marine in the bunker at my natural, so the zerg maybe wastes some banelings for a bunker and a marine. Moreover I try to kill as many zerglings/banelings with my hellions on his way to my base.
On April 22 2012 02:21 TangSC wrote:
I love the weaknesses of this build: "Unfortunately, you are not MMA so you will probably die to all-ins!"
A lot of good information here, though I'd love to see a few replay or screenshot examples for the "Defending early aggression" sections.
I will add replays as soon as I face early aggression again, but most zergs just try to play a standart game, so it will take some time. Thanks for your feedback
Sry that I wasn't able to upload replays/pictures for the defense of early aggression, but zergs simply don't all in me at the moment 
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Hi I'm interested in integrating this into my playstyle.
I do have a question - is getting the cloak actually worth it? because from what a friend in my clan (who's in masters, zerg) says, that he doesn't think that it's worth getting the cloak (just the 2 banshees), even if they force 2-3 spores at each base
can someone shed some light on reasons to get cloak or not? :D? thanks
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Russian Federation68 Posts
Please, check this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340896
It would be great if you post some replays where you defend your openin against 2 base LingBling bust, RoachLing bust and finaly Roach-Bling bust. Because Cloak transition if most varnulable to this pushes and i wish to see how you terrans defend such a thing.
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Russian Federation68 Posts
can someone shed some light on reasons to get cloak or not? :D? thanks
It is obvious - you can't harras on this timing without cloak. You can't force spores without cloak (against inteligent zerg). You even on most maps can't deny 3rd without cloak. With cloak you can do all this things.
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I agree with yaRus. When I wrote the guide, I didn't research cloak, but with the new siege queen, zergs can take a third really early and even connect it with creep, so I recommend you to get cloak.
It's really hard to upload replays vs those all ins, because either the zerg executes it poorly or I defend like a bronze player... I have only been able to upload one replay for each all in since my last post (2012-05-01). I will continue to add them as I play them.
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him: nonono
i disagree
200/200 waaaay too much on the offchance they odnt have a spore
me: or I could just ask mma why he gets cloak
or mkp himself
>_>
him: idc who does it like that
realistically the cloak shouldnt help vs a good zerg
me: mma, mkp, almost all the pros that goes this style......................
is the banshees+cloak for map control, because then the 200/200 isn't for actually doing damage, right?
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The problem with this bo is that since the new patch many zergs getting 4 -5 queens so they kill easy the banshee amd by that time cloack hits , lair is already finish for zergs
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Instead of getting cloak you can get 2 banshees and then a raven, and use it to deny creep (PDD queen's attack + detection). I think I saw Demuslim doing it quite a lot on his stream, and it's really nice to be able to shut down creep spread completely. I also think he sometimes both upgrade cloak and make a raven.
Also, it's a minor thing but against banelings blue flame is useless, as banelings are not light (they have only biological as attribute). It's still worth getting of course, but some sentences in the op and other posts could mislead to thinking that BF hellions are actually better than standard ones against banes.
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I am wondering why early game,MMA makes his CC right after first fact finishes...
Why, just why? For stronger econ and nowhere to spend minerals on? What about making Barracks for marines andBunkers to hold off early presure?
Or does this build rely so much on getting quick 3rd CC?
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On June 09 2012 01:35 dynwar7 wrote:
I am wondering why early game,MMA makes his CC right after first fact finishes...
Why, just why? For stronger econ and nowhere to spend minerals on? What about making Barracks for marines andBunkers to hold off early presure?
Or does this build rely so much on getting quick 3rd CC?
The explicit intent of Hellion/Banshee pressure is to get that quick 3rd. Hellion/Banshee is such a fast, mobile composition with a lethal effectiveness in wiping out drone lines, so the Zerg is forced to play a bit defensively if you don't fuck up your control of the units (i.e. losing your first Banshee to Spore Crawlers). So the 3rd CC is the 'sting' of the build, which sets you up beautifully for the transition into more standard Marine/Tank aggression OR mech play without the weakness of trying to establish a tankless third with just MMM.
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On June 08 2012 02:06 Nimix wrote:
Instead of getting cloak you can get 2 banshees and then a raven, and use it to deny creep (PDD queen's attack + detection). I think I saw Demuslim doing it quite a lot on his stream, and it's really nice to be able to shut down creep spread completely. I also think he sometimes both upgrade cloak and make a raven.
Also, it's a minor thing but against banelings blue flame is useless, as banelings are not light (they have only biological as attribute). It's still worth getting of course, but some sentences in the op and other posts could mislead to thinking that BF hellions are actually better than standard ones against banes.
Someone tried this against me yesterday and as soon as their raven + 2 banshees were out on the map for about 10 sec I had mutas out and killed them all. You have to be very careful about it and scout if your opponent is going infestors or mutas.
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EPT
