EPTMake a style for yourself
Don't justify things with "Because MC does it", justify it with your own strategic sense and logic!
[G] Improving on one's own - Page 3
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
Make a style for yourself Don't justify things with "Because MC does it", justify it with your own strategic sense and logic! | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Pick one build order for that matchup This is the biggest trap with improving IMO and it is painfully obvious with almost everybody who falls short of masters with hundreds of games played. "Build Orders" do not work and never have, the mentality of following a list of things to do with any kind of strictness will just get you killed or fail to give you required edges over your opponent through scouting and adaptation in various ways. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
@ShatterZer0: First off, you simply do not have the time or experience to make up your own build orders that will keep up with build order pros came up with. Plus as I already stated, if you do something different everygame you're going to make extremely different mistakes everygame and you'll have an insanely hard time fixing those mistakes. Even pros like Stephano who supposedly have their own styles all learned from other pros until they were good enough to justify such deviations. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel? @Cyro: This is just nonsense. Optimally you learn from a set of replays and see where the important edges one player won over the other come from. If you think following a build order means not making marauders and additional bunkers vs a roach rush (as an example) then that's your interpretation. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
You are best off learning from what the pros do. That doesn't mean you can't make slight adaptations, but try not to make big changes. There is huge variety in pro games, find a style and a build you like and you think suits your strengths and try it out. Try to watch as many vods of this build as possible so you know when and how to adapt it in different situations. This is all assuming your goal is to win games and to improve. If your goal is just to have fun, then feel free to try out crazy builds. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On April 23 2012 02:26 decaf wrote: I strongly disagree with both of you. @ShatterZer0: First off, you simply do not have the time or experience to make up your own build orders that will keep up with build order pros came up with. Plus as I already stated, if you do something different everygame you're going to make extremely different mistakes everygame and you'll have an insanely hard time fixing those mistakes. Even pros like Stephano who supposedly have their own styles all learned from other pros until they were good enough to justify such deviations. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel? If you want to play like a pro, do as pros do. Truly great pro's don't just watch a replay and play verbatim. Sure, you can hit Masters in a flash by mimicking a pro, but will that make you a good player? It'll make you a player that will never be as good as the player you're mimicking. It'll make you a meth cook and not a chemist. xD All that stealing builds and playing verbatim does is fortify some kind of twisted thoughtless macro that will only be of very general use. You get such general advancement with playing your own way as long as you're critical enough of your own play. Most of all.... just choosing a Pro's play without understanding the basic strategic premise of the build itself doesn't really foster any sort of learning at all... and learning is what makes SC2 fun, right? "Slight Adaptations" implies you can actually tell the difference between "correct" and "incorrect play", in which case you're likely at a skill level where you shouldn't need to mindlessly plug away at some other person's train of thought. Then again... most people take pleasure and fun from Starcraft in winning... so I guess if you equate increasing your win rate to becoming a better player... then yeah. "Learn from the Pros"... | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
In almost all disciplines people start by learning what has gone before. Top chefs start by learning classic recipes, physicists start off with Newton's laws, etc. They start with the basic building blocks and when they understand the basics they move on. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On April 23 2012 03:41 Willzzz wrote: Just because you start off imitating doesn't mean you won't progress beyond that. Even top pros "borrow" builds off each other. In almost all disciplines people start by learning what has gone before. Top chefs start by learning classic recipes, physicists start off with Newton's laws, etc. They start with the basic building blocks and when they understand the basics they move on. Yes, but this kind of completely one sided thinking has to be followed up with serious creativity and deep knowledge of the game itself... otherwise you find yourself becoming a carbon copy with nothing but the greatest of imitative skill. I could name a dozen or so players, especially Koreans, in both Broodwar and SC2 that were just that... even at the highest level. These players almost never become the Bonjwa, and even if they do win a major tournament memories of them are washed away in an instant. Using the basics does not mean you understand the basics, and telling people that they will become better players, especially Diamond or Masters players, by blasting out games and mimicking pros is just plain wrong in many cases. Take, for example, iNcontroL. He's previously stated that in doing this for 8-10 hours a day for months on end wasn't close to productive, in fact it almost teaches you to stop questioning why you do these things. All my point really is, is that if you want to improve, your mindset is much more important than the number of games you play or how stringent your practice regimen may be. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Let's ditch this word mimicking, because that never really happens. Starcraft is a lot like chess, you might have a million games that all start off with a certain opening, but they all end in different ways. Like chess an opening in starcraft isn't some magic recipe to win you the game, it just gets you to a mid game that you feel comfortable with. Most people going for these crazy strats have really bad, negative reasons for doing so. It's usually because they have very poor understanding of standard play. I really don't understand why you think that people following the standard meta game are all devoid of imagination and robotic in their actions. It just isn't true. Nor does it imply that you just grind countless games and have a poor mindset. These things are completely independent of which strategy you choose to play. | ||
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Riverdragon0
United States11 Posts
I am currently near the top of platinum, hoping to break into diamond in the near future. I play pretty standard in every matchup, but dont have everything mapped out perfectly: TvP: 1 rax FE - 3 rax - fast medivacs and decently fast upgrades TvZ: reactored hellions expo - fast drop harass - marine tank aggression TvT: reaper expo - mass marine - marine tank aggression So basically I want to find builds like those, but that have subtle things like upgrades and tech mapped out. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On April 23 2012 12:59 Riverdragon0 wrote: I really want to try this but Im having trouble finding standard replays from pro players that I want to replicate. For example I saw on TLPD that MMA has a 75% win percentage in TvZ, so I downloaded some replays from SC2replays but he does crazy builds that are never the same. Obviously in a Best out of X series players arent going to do the same build every game, so where do you find standard builds that the pro's put their own spins on. I also have watched alot of Day9 TvX videos, so I may just choose to steal those. I am currently near the top of platinum, hoping to break into diamond in the near future. I play pretty standard in every matchup, but dont have everything mapped out perfectly: TvP: 1 rax FE - 3 rax - fast medivacs and decently fast upgrades TvZ: reactored hellions expo - fast drop harass - marine tank aggression TvT: reaper expo - mass marine - marine tank aggression So basically I want to find builds like those, but that have subtle things like upgrades and tech mapped out. that seems like a good starting point, i personally get stuck at this point where i have inspiration for builds that numerous pros do but can't manage to find replays or vods of them :/ what you do here is just pick timings that make sense and just adjust from there like "i want to make my factory asap but keep constant scv/marine/depot production off of 2cc 3rax and get 2 bunkers so i don't die to an allin" then if the factory timing is too late cut marines to make it faster or get gas sooner stuff like that, this is the type of thing you do vs a practice partner (obviously a very simple example) here you would figure out the earliest you could get the factory without dying to an allin/early push/or cutting scvs | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
On April 23 2012 04:10 ShatterZer0 wrote: Yes, but this kind of completely one sided thinking has to be followed up with serious creativity and deep knowledge of the game itself... otherwise you find yourself becoming a carbon copy with nothing but the greatest of imitative skill. I could name a dozen or so players, especially Koreans, in both Broodwar and SC2 that were just that... even at the highest level. These players almost never become the Bonjwa, and even if they do win a major tournament memories of them are washed away in an instant. Using the basics does not mean you understand the basics, and telling people that they will become better players, especially Diamond or Masters players, by blasting out games and mimicking pros is just plain wrong in many cases. Take, for example, iNcontroL. He's previously stated that in doing this for 8-10 hours a day for months on end wasn't close to productive, in fact it almost teaches you to stop questioning why you do these things. All my point really is, is that if you want to improve, your mindset is much more important than the number of games you play or how stringent your practice regimen may be. Focusing on one build is about improving mechanics and execution. It is not until you execute a build close to perfectly that you can even really begin to understand it. If you are doing nearly everything sub optimally you are not experiencing strategy in the game correctly. You have to learn to walk before you can run. It is only after you have practiced several builds robotically, mechanically, perfectly that you can begin to explore what it possible on your own. This is true of any sport or game. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On April 23 2012 12:59 Riverdragon0 wrote: I really want to try this but Im having trouble finding standard replays from pro players that I want to replicate. For example I saw on TLPD that MMA has a 75% win percentage in TvZ, so I downloaded some replays from SC2replays but he does crazy builds that are never the same. Obviously in a Best out of X series players arent going to do the same build every game, so where do you find standard builds that the pro's put their own spins on. I also have watched alot of Day9 TvX videos, so I may just choose to steal those. I am currently near the top of platinum, hoping to break into diamond in the near future. I play pretty standard in every matchup, but dont have everything mapped out perfectly: TvP: 1 rax FE - 3 rax - fast medivacs and decently fast upgrades TvZ: reactored hellions expo - fast drop harass - marine tank aggression TvT: reaper expo - mass marine - marine tank aggression So basically I want to find builds like those, but that have subtle things like upgrades and tech mapped out. Hey, yea I know, tournaments haven't really been releasing replays as of late. It's not just you running low on them. For TvZ I could suggest Polt's marine hellion build, if you download the assembly winter replays you will find like 4 replays of him doing this, he really does this build a lot and I think it's great.(I even uploaded one of them in the OP if you click on the spoiler). Or you can use the GSL, for instance I'll steal IMMvp's heavy barracks play vs protoss from the GSL VOD as soon as I'm able to play again. Or as you mentioned the day9 dailies. I got my TvP 2rax build (marineking vs whitera) and my TvT marine tank build (thorzain vs puma) from there. You could even go back to the blizzard cup or whatever it was called and steal Mvp's double expand build from there. For other races I really don't know, check the same places.These are hard times when it comes to actually finding replays. I hope MLG releases some in the near future.. | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:18 decaf wrote: @ catid: I just felt like offering a practice regiment. Watching replays or not is up to each and everyone. Personally I almost never do, because I tend to know why I lost or what I did wrong anyways (especially if you mess up your build order -> you should always know how it looks like exectued perfectly from the pro replays). Just because it's not in the OP it doesn't mean you're not allowed to do it. There's no way of practicing that's perfect for everyone, I just posted what I find to be the most efficient way. I personally think watching each and every replay is a huge waste of time, only pick the ones when you're left behind with confusion after a game. I feel like people overrate the importance of watching replays after a loss. It just usually seems like a waste of time when you could be spending that extra 5-10 minutes just starting up another game. Unless you really cannot figure out how you lost, or you need specific information from it, it's almost counterproductive to just watch every replay. On April 23 2012 03:14 ShatterZer0 wrote: If you want to play like a pro, do as pros do. Truly great pro's don't just watch a replay and play verbatim. Sure, you can hit Masters in a flash by mimicking a pro, but will that make you a good player? It'll make you a player that will never be as good as the player you're mimicking. It'll make you a meth cook and not a chemist. xD All that stealing builds and playing verbatim does is fortify some kind of twisted thoughtless macro that will only be of very general use. You get such general advancement with playing your own way as long as you're critical enough of your own play. Most of all.... just choosing a Pro's play without understanding the basic strategic premise of the build itself doesn't really foster any sort of learning at all... and learning is what makes SC2 fun, right? "Slight Adaptations" implies you can actually tell the difference between "correct" and "incorrect play", in which case you're likely at a skill level where you shouldn't need to mindlessly plug away at some other person's train of thought. Then again... most people take pleasure and fun from Starcraft in winning... so I guess if you equate increasing your win rate to becoming a better player... then yeah. "Learn from the Pros"... Huh? Even the bonjwas still use nearly the same basic opening as the rest of their peers. It's not like Flash didn't 1 rax fe the same as everyone else tvz. The thing that makes a good player great is decision making, not necessarily coming up with gimmicky builds all the time. Nearly every matchup at this point of the game plays out more or less optimally at the start. Not taking a quick 3rd in zvp is pretty much just being stupid. "So come right up and let me squash your creativity with my iron fist of conservative play."--Nony | ||
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Djxinator
United Kingdom14 Posts
I follow building groupings, and play in a style that suits me - this way I UNDERSTAND why I need to do something rather than doing it by memory. I don't want to fall into the trap of seeing PvZ (for example) and my brain ticking...9 Pylon (Scout) 13 Forge etc etc. I want to think, okay dependent on what the Zerg is doing when I scout i'll switch my build order. FFE is a very open build and if I see early pool, I cannon up and get that gateway down and chrono out that Zealot to wall off vs his lings. If I see hatch first I can match him by taking an expansion before I pop down a forge so I can keep up with him in terms of macro. I like to refine the builds myself, without a build order and once I have gotten something that I think works and can understand why it works, I look up the actual build order for the adjustments that I may or may not need to make dependent on the situation. My veiw (not that it has any weight here) is that this is a game that cannot be won with a script, which is what a build order is, and a lot of folk I know fell into this trap and have in turn quit SC2. Something I havent done (and the reason I was placed in Bronze and have been there for 79 (wins) ) is play with a practice partner. I live with the guy who tought me how to play SC2, so I feel retarded for not using him as a resource in more than just yelling at me when I do something wrong. I also don't play custom games, I hopped straight into ladder after doing my Practice matches and got plopped in bronze where I have been bouncing in and out of the top 8 thus far - this is a mistake I will have to live with and I will continue to learn the hard way, losing and gaining my ladder points until a promotion decides to pop up and drag me out of the hellish depths of the Bronze League. Although now I beleive I am ready for Silver, and assuming I don't get PvZ Stephano Roaches for the next week I'm looking for a promotion. | ||
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theBIGdog
United States41 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On April 24 2012 03:02 theBIGdog wrote: Any link for Orion's BO tester. I can't find it. You need to look for it ingame, but I'm not sure if it also exists on the NA servers. If it does not, just look for others. I'm sure you'll fine one typing in build order into the searchbar ingame. Just try them out. Any that lets you restart without having to leave the game will do. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I strongly disagree with both of you. @ShatterZer0: First off, you simply do not have the time or experience to make up your own build orders that will keep up with build order pros came up with. Plus as I already stated, if you do something different everygame you're going to make extremely different mistakes everygame and you'll have an insanely hard time fixing those mistakes. Even pros like Stephano who supposedly have their own styles all learned from other pros until they were good enough to justify such deviations. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel? Im an EU Bronze level player, and I have found that Build orders and pros replays don't apply at this level. I follow building groupings, and play in a style that suits me - this way I UNDERSTAND why I need to do something rather than doing it by memory. I don't want to fall into the trap of seeing PvZ (for example) and my brain ticking...9 Pylon (Scout) 13 Forge etc etc. I want to think, okay dependent on what the Zerg is doing when I scout i'll switch my build order. FFE is a very open build and if I see early pool, I cannon up and get that gateway down and chrono out that Zealot to wall off vs his lings. If I see hatch first I can match him by taking an expansion before I pop down a forge so I can keep up with him in terms of macro. Listen to decaf. He's much smarter and better than you, and he's telling you that pros are much smarter and better than he'll ever be. If your build order doesn't look similar to a pros, then 100% you are fucking up. The pros have played more than 1000x games as you, you can guarantee that there isn't any build that you can come up with that they haven't done already. 100% - if the pros don't do something (like go infestors in ZvZ before hydras), it's because it's bad. You just are too low level to know why yet. I just learned at about 1000 points masters how much better hydras are than infestors in ZvP and ZvZ. As always decaf, great guide. Your stuff is always completely top notch, and I hope one day my guides will be viewed as half as good as yours. I'm a 1100 points masters (random mid-masters scrub ;/ ) and I took a lot away from it. Your bit about watching streams, can be applied to posting to forums (the reason I'm not in code s right now -_- ), reddit (the worst of all), and watching tournaments (i try to only watch match-ups that I'm currently questioning or struggling with, and only in the gsl, and in fast forward, as well as macro timings of zvp). All this stuff just kills your ranking - there's a reason you always hear the pros on SOTG (yea another horrible rank killer, but i listen to it at work on recording) like nony, nestea, destiny, naniwa, incontrol, idra, all say "i didnt see that game" or "i heard about it but didn't watch it" - it's because they are busy playing. You will very, very rarely see top players post on this forum, because they know to play more. Just perusing a couple series of GSL, and posting on TL for replay analysis (something thats really helpful actually) is all you need. One thing though - I try to watch all of my replays, win or lose (unless it was a stupidly easy win), to see if maybe I won because he didn't push out, if I lost because I didn't push out, and macro benchmarking. I don't think it's bad to watch 100% of your replays, you can always 8x through them, and just check out the questionable parts. The worst is when you rage over a game and refuse to watch it. Another tip I'd add though - saying glhf/gg. I'm seriously the most bm person on b.net, I'm a huge rager, I offensively gg and everything. But I decided to start saying that stuff just to try it out, and I realized very quickly that it helps you log in more games. It lets you get over losses much quicker and keep playing, it just lets you play with less tilt... you don't need to be GM to do it (every time someone says 'glhf' to me i'm so tempted to just say 'fuck you'), just robotically do it, and walla, your gaming will increase as will your rank. | ||
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xHerodotusx
United Kingdom114 Posts
You are a freaking legend. I've lurked your strategy posts for sometime now and have always found them incredibly well presented and, more importantly, thought out. Thanks for all the great work you have done. I am not so sure about the streams/forums thing, though. To be honest, I would tell people to do what they enjoy. If you feel like watching a tournament or stream more than you want to play at the present moment, do that. There are definite benefits to watching tournaments and streams, namely that you better understand what each race is capable of (tournaments) and you better understand how you are supposed to do things (streams). The cerebral aspect of your game will be heightened by watching the best in a way that it won't through playing by yourself. Pros don't use time on this because they have already reached that understanding through trial and error, why not skip the error and use the lessons already learned by the best in the game? decaf hit the nail on the head with his spam comment; at a high masters level I was finding my main deficiencies to be an inability to multitask adequately and a lack of precision. I was playing at around 150-180 EPM. Over the past few weeks I began forcing myself to spam throughout the game and have found that not only am I able to keep up with everything that goes on in my games (220-240 EPM) but my precision has increased drastically. By making myself constantly cycle, I took the crutches out of my gameplay and forced my actions to become more meaningful and precise. If you are focused on spamming your control groups the precision with which you force yourself to micro is crazy. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Following a whole tournament is wayyyy too much time consumed, even just a weekend of MLG, but watching maybe 2-5 series is good. You don't need to watch every game to figure things out, just a few key games of your race played by good players, against good players (what's especially best, is reading the reports and write-ups of stuff, especially when they do the ranking of games by entertainment value of the GSL, as 2 star games generally don't have much to learn from, but a 5 star may). It's not like pros don't use this time because it's 'figured out'. They don't do this stuff because it mean less games played. You rarely even see 1200+ points masters post frequently. The overwhelming majority of people who are active here, are mid-masters or below. | ||
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