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Hey.
Since I have an injury that prevents me from playing I thought I might share some experience I gained while switching races (Zerg -> Terran) 3 months ago.
I'm decaf and a mid-high masters EU terran (well, as soon as my hand is functioning again) that's been playing Zerg for one and a half years. I've written several guides so far, but the most notable is probably this one:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277693
I'm writing this because occasionally I see threads popping up asking "how to improve fast" and when I read through the replies I see many advices that seem wrong to me so I'm trying to give my point of view on the matter.
When switching races I obviously wanted to get to my old level as soon as possible (I'm not quite there yet), so I practiced in the most efficient way possible. I know there's many people out there who aren't as determined and probably won't be able to practice in such a way and that's totally fine. This is directed towards people who _really_ want to get better.
When switching races I sticked to custom games for a very long time. I didn't go to ladder and tried my best. I've never ever played terran before and I didn't want to "ruin my stats". If you want to improve you have to accept at one point that ladder stats aren't important though - but beginning with customs is the best way anyway. This being said I'l start off~
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The most important thing to have when wanting to improve is practice partners. You will find some there
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312140
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328110
or you can go to any teamliquid channel ingame and ask for games. Once you have them you're ready to go.
This is what that practice regiment looks like:
- Pick one matchup
- Pick one build order for that matchup from a well-established pro
- Practice that build in a build order test map
- Play your build vs practice partners
- Do this for all matchups
- Go to ladder
- Expand your knowledge
I will go over all the points in detail in just a second.
Pick one matchup:
You pick the matchup you're most insterested in, because this will give you the motivation you need. For me that matchup obviously was TvZ, since I've been playing Zerg for so long. It is important to only stick to one matchup, because you won't be able to focus on so many different builds at the same time. Not only the build orders are different, but also the way you micro against each race.
Once you know how to play one matchup, the next one will become easier to learn - you already improved your macro and mechanics practicing TvZ (or whatever matchup you like) solely.
Pick one build order for that matchup from a well-established pro:
Picking the right build order (replay) is essential. You don't want to waste time. First off, what is a well established pro? Any non-korean except naniwa, stephano and thorzain is not, all code s koreans are.
Obviously player have strong and weak matchups, this is very key also. When you're looking for a strong TvP player, who comes to mind? Polt, MKP, Puma; TvZ? MMA; TvT? alive - and so on.
If you aren't sure which player is good at which matchup go to the search bar and type in the player's name and look it up in the TLPD. I recommend to look at the SC2 korea and internation statistics - foreigners heavily skew the statisitcs.
It's also always nice to have several replays displaying the build. Get ready to write down every important thing in your notepad. Depending on the build 8-15 minutes into the game. You should have a clue how many production facilities you can support off of 2, 3, 4 etc bases - just watch the replays and count the facilities in the mid to late game.
Additionally, this build MUST be a macro build i.e. 1rax FE, double expand w/e. Suck up build order losses and do not deviate, the build should not be overly greedy - just standard macro builds. Also do not choose games of teammates playing against each other (those are likely to be weird).
Something I liked doing is searching through the day9 archives looking for interesting matchups featuring good players, it's where I got my TvP and TvZ build from. Tournaments like IPL release replays, this is where you get 'em. If you don't find any the day9 VOD or even a GSL VOD is sufficient to copy the build anyways - it's just harder.
As per request, here's an example of how I do it:
+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/122678
13 rax (3marines)
14 gas
fac (6hellions)
reactor on rax
fac -> rax
22 CC
TL on rax
stim
fac -> .
rax on reactor, rax
7:30 starport, gas, reactor on fac/rax
starport -> fac
9:40 CC
10:00 TL on fac, ebay
Probably hard to decypher for some people, but that's how I take my notes. I left out that a couple of barracks will be added after that ebay, but I now that anyways. After that it's pretty standard marine tank medivac play. I picked this build, because it's extremely good vs greedy zergs and vs ling inf play (I don't like to play against that) and it also leaves you behind with a reactored starport which is great. I also got 2 other builds that include 6 hellions so I can mindgame a little bit. 13rax 14gas with 3 marines is something I always do in TvZ, don't think Polt did it.
Practice that build in a build order test map:
Now this is the most important and simultaneously the hardest part. Many people will struggle here to keep the motivation up, but this is where we save most of our time. When you have picked the right build order for you you need to practice it without having opponents ruining your day. You need to get a feeling for the build at first. Look at what the pro does, how does he move his units? where does he look? what is he looking for? what triggers certain actions? Copy the build 100% without even thinking about what you do - thinking about the game comes later.
I always liked to go to orion's build order test map and play the build for 2-3 hours straight. I wouldn't dare to play vs others when I still made so many mistakes in my build. This includes supply blocking yourself, forgetting upgrades, wrong gas timings. You want to copy the pro as best as you can, you don't need 400apm to play a build perfectly.
Play your build vs practice partners:
Now this is the time to see if the hard work has paid off. You will find yourself in a situation where you're overwhelmed by how much more you have to do now. You will make many mistakes in your build order. Maybe you want to go back to the build order test map one more time to fix all the mistakes you found. It'll take quite some time till you're able to execute the build in a way it doesn't bother you anymore, but the first win will be worth it. It is _very_ key that you do not deviate your build no matter what. If you do something else every game you will make extremely different mistakes every game and you will have an incredibly hard time fixing them. You don't even need very good opponents for the first few matches.
Obviously, the better you are the faster you'll learn.
Do this for all matchups:
Now you know how to play one match up. Back to the beginning. Don't worry, you will learn much faster now and you'll already be used to the practice environment. I suggest picking the mirror matchup as the last one you learn, because it requires the most knowledge about the race you're playing.
Go to ladder:
After all that hard work you're ready to go to ladder. If you've done your homework carefully you should be able to get to masters within one week. You'll notice that you don't even have to micro your units, you'll just have way more than your opponents anyways. The only thing that is going to be annoying a little bit is the fact that you're going to lose to cheese quite often, since practice partners don't really cheese a whole lot. This is what you can learn from ladder though, dealing with a variety of different playstyles.
Expand your knowledge:
Now that you do know how to play one build order per matchup it is wise to learn other build orders. You want to be able to react to the map and positions you're playing on so maybe learn a 2rax if you're playing a TvP on shattered temple or w/e. Just be smart about what you do.
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What is left to cover?
Micro:
I primarily have talked about picking the right build orders and take the right steps in order to improve but I've completely overlooked other aspects such as micro and mechanics. Micro and mechanics improve when grinding out a ton of games, but there's also a faster solution to this.
For practicing micro I love darglein's micro map. Just type in darglein into the search bar ingame and you'll find it. It has tons fo challenges varying in difficulty. If this is not enough you may also do the StarCraft masters thing released by blizzard. Since I switched from zerg to terran I had to learn how to split and stutter step properly so I made use of darglein's custom map. I get to level 40-something on the split level (with stim, speed and no creep ofc).
Mechanics:
Believe it or not, spamming is the key. I'm talking about cycling through your production buildings and not clicking ten times to send an SCV like I always see the north americans do on their streams. You want few, precise clicks for that. Spamming in the beginning helps to warm up your fingers and get a rhythm into the game. I recommend it.
Other than that the right hotkeys are important, too. I use all the hotkeys from 1 to 7 as Terran and 1 to 9 as Zerg. For the Terran hotkeys I picked IMMvp's set. I know many people say pick what suits you the most, but honestly, if IMMvp managed to get that good with the way he hotkeys it's proven it's possible. Just get used to it and it is what "suits" you. I don't believe there's better hotkey layouts, they're all the same (unless you fuck them up on purpose).
Other than that you will find enough information on everything if you just look for it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328028#7
Replays:
This is personal preference. It's not wise to watch 0% of your replays nor is it to watch 100% of them. I feel like watching the replay when I'm left behind with confusion after losing a game and I have no idea what happened or I won a game and want to see how hard I r~ped my opponent. It's not worth watching all replays, you could be playing instead.
Watching streams:
I thought I might add this just for the hell of it. There's only so much you can learn from watching streams. The things you learn from watching streams decreases exponentially with the time spent watching. It's good and actually important to see FPVOD material, but if it gets to a point where you're just wasting time and not learning new things it's kind of a waste of time.
Don't get me wrong, FPVODs are great, especially if you happen to have one of the build you're trying to learn.
This is how I learned to play terran and I got matched against GMs after 2 months of playing. Obviously I was already high masters with zerg so that helped a little bit. Due to real life stress and other things I'm more like mid-high masters right now, but I'll be back in a few weeks. It's worked for me and also for this guy + Show Spoiler + so I thought I'd share. Thanks for reading~.
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Wow, thanks a lot Decaf  .
I'm a shitty platinum Zerg player, and I recently switched to random. I have an afternoon with not much to do, and I was browsing TL trying to find a good way to improve my TvP and PvP... And then you just post this.
Thanks a lot, that's awesome .
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Alright guide I guess (doesn't apply to me so not sure but I appreciate the effort). One thing I recommend as well, which is linked to the spoiler at the end but sorta hardlines it. Every build you have should have some aspect of multitasking since it is a vital part of the game, improving that aspect will serve you well. For example, going stargate instead of robotics after FFE in PvZ can make you improve over time.
Same with Banshees in TvT and TvZ (I go helion expand into banshees into mech). Playing passive does not require as much APM or macro.
Same with mutas in ZvT (and ZvP I guess but yeah..) and ling / bling micro in ZvZ.
TLDR : Force yourself to multitask and you will improve. Even if it is not a style that suits you, it will be effective knowledge for defending multipronged attacks and such.
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Man same story as me. Except i went straight to ladder and went masters to plat xD.
Should have customed ay?
Good write up, as always ^^
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On April 10 2012 21:45 vBr wrote:
Alright guide I guess (doesn't apply to me so not sure but I appreciate the effort). One thing I recommend as well, which is linked to the spoiler at the end but sorta hardlines it. Every build you have should have some aspect of multitasking since it is a vital part of the game, improving that aspect will serve you well. For example, going stargate instead of robotics after FFE in PvZ can make you improve over time.
Same with Banshees in TvT and TvZ (I go helion expand into banshees into mech). Playing passive does not require as much APM or macro.
Same with mutas in ZvT (and ZvP I guess but yeah..) and ling / bling micro in ZvZ.
TLDR : Force yourself to multitask and you will improve. Even if it is not a style that suits you, it will be effective knowledge for defending multipronged attacks and such.
Well, you can always multitask with drops or mutas and such. I think banshee build and other micro heavy builds are a tall order for level players, you can always learn those builds once you did your homework.
Everyone has different opinions, this is what's worked best for me. Might not be what works best for you.
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This is pretty much what I do, problem is, I get stuck on step 3 because I'm NEVER satisfied. Not only do I want zero supply blocks and perfect macro for supply etc, I also demand of myself that I should be able to scout properly etc... just a few minor mistakes and I consider myself far from able to use it on ladder/practice partners. Because of this, I focus a lot on matchup X and eventually get to a point where I feel I can start using it... but by that time, I've forgotten how to play matchup Y properly, so I feel I have to retrain that. This has lead to a situation where I can pull of several builds in each matchup to a much higher degree of efficiency than is needed at my level, but at the same time, I have no experience using them against players and therefor fail because of timings I'm not expecting, bad scouting, overdroning...
I guess my point is that one should probably not go to far with training builds in the build order tester and start using them against others before you get to a point where you demand perfection.
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The recipe's simple, but the execution is where i becomes difficult (at least for me). This is too easy to mindlessly grind ladder games without enough preparation and solid plans. That and mastering 9 matchups is hard ^_^
Question though : what good build order tester maps exits nowaday ? I use Yabot ones sometimes, are there any more up to date similar maps ?
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@ c_kAelle: Thanks, wasn't sure if I wanted to add a section about it, because I want people to take this is a foundation and just how they look up the right replays look up other stuff they need.
@ Kerm: I'm not quite sure, I only used Orion's. It could be better, but it's not that important. It lets you restart without having to leave the game. It has some downsides too, though - like no 3rd base or restarting timer.
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Nice post. Do you think it also applies to Zerg?
I would really like to learn that way but I don't think there are builds for Zerg that versatile like eco builds for Terrans or Toss'es
Any tips besides that for Zerg specific learning? :-)
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On April 11 2012 01:05 ErnieohneBert wrote:
Nice post. Do you think it also applies to Zerg?
I would really like to learn that way but I don't think there are builds for Zerg that versatile like eco builds for Terrans or Toss'es
Any tips besides that for Zerg specific learning? :-)
To a certain extend, yes. Zerg is kinda different though. For instance you can learn all the gas timings up until 10 minutes and such. If you look up stephano replays you'll notice that most of the time he goes for double evo and the chambers line up perfectly with the gas timings, copy all that. But it's a little different since you have to react more. That's why you should know certain timings like the 10min terran push or sending in an overlord at 6min if you feel like scouting. Zerg is not as reactionary as it used to be, though. Bigger maps and newer styles allow for much more proactive play.
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I liked the guide, but I feel this guide caters more to people who are already at a higher level (particularly Diamond+) where actual strategy and decent macro is required. I don't think this would be a great go-to solution for the up-and-coming Bronze - Gold player just because drilling with a practice partner isn't going to help you gain the mechanical skill required to execute a build order. The purpose of drilling with practice partner is to test how builds work against certain playstyles and builds. However, I believe that this should come after getting the build order down and playing people on the ladder. You list that you should get a practice partner, but you list generic advice about practicing the build, not so much about the practice partner bit.
Also, one piece of advice that I feel like you're missing is watching your replays after every game you lose. I feel that replay-watching is the single most important part in improving one's self. You cannot pin down your mistakes if you cannot see them and their effects on the game that you played.
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thanks for this guide, i JUST switched from zerg to toss a few weeks ago, and i think you have a really good plan for improving, time for me to put it to work !
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you should add how important it is to reflect on your games (generally watching your replays), if you're just grinding games without an idea of what you should be improving you're going to have a very bad time spent:improvement ratio
and I feel this is effective up to a solid master rank but to advance past that you need to be thinking more about the mind part of the game e.g. how much/when you should be expanding, what ratio of marines:marauders or roaches:infestors you should have, when to drop etc.
at least that's been my experience as a Zerg at masters
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@ catid: I just felt like offering a practice regiment. Watching replays or not is up to each and everyone. Personally I almost never do, because I tend to know why I lost or what I did wrong anyways (especially if you mess up your build order -> you should always know how it looks like exectued perfectly from the pro replays). Just because it's not in the OP it doesn't mean you're not allowed to do it. There's no way of practicing that's perfect for everyone, I just posted what I find to be the most efficient way. I personally think watching each and every replay is a huge waste of time, only pick the ones when you're left behind with confusion after a game.
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I can also advise to use audiobuilds.com because you have direct audio feedback and you instantly know if you are behind on schedule.
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On April 11 2012 03:19 kirdie wrote:
I can also advise to use audiobuilds.com because you have direct audio feedback and you instantly know if you are behind on schedule.
I don't know about such programs so I'm not sure, because I always liked to practice with no games sounds at all to force myself to look at the minimap, check my supply at the top right to see if I'm supply blocking myself, or for zergs to larvae inject etc.. I'm not sure if this makes you too dependent on audio input, but I think especially for lower level players this might be a nice feature, but I can recommend to anyone playing without sounds for a month or two (most people (including myself) are listening to music anyways).
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Traitor!!!!!
j/k.
Thank you very much for this guide. It really helped me to focus and learn how to improve actually instead of grinding games on ladder/practice partners. Very well written and concise. Thank you.
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On April 10 2012 21:24 decaf wrote:
Terran hotkeys I picked IMMvp's set. I know many people say pick what suits you the most, but honestly, if IMMvp managed to get that good with the way he hotkeys it's proven it's possible. Just get used to it and it is what "suits" you. I don't believe there's better hotkey layouts, they're all the same (unless you fuck them up on purpose).
.
what's MVP's hotkey layout? im really interested =D
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YesYesYes! This guide is so good for all players at all levels. I switch from Protoss to Terran in season 3 (after reaching Masters), and used pretty much this exact method of practising, and I was up to Master level as Terran in no time. This is also the way I practise brood war.
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On April 20 2012 11:23 Raymano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 21:24 decaf wrote:
Terran hotkeys I picked IMMvp's set. I know many people say pick what suits you the most, but honestly, if IMMvp managed to get that good with the way he hotkeys it's proven it's possible. Just get used to it and it is what "suits" you. I don't believe there's better hotkey layouts, they're all the same (unless you fuck them up on purpose).
. what's MVP's hotkey layout? im really interested =D
Basically it looks like this in the midgame:
1, 2 army
3 raxes
4 facs
5 starports
6 CCs
7 ebays (not sure if he does it but I do)
Mvp has actually very few army hotkeys, most of the time his main army isn't even hotkeyed if you watch closely, he will have dropships on there or something like that.
In matchups I don't use all facilities like TvP or with mech I do 1-3 army and 4raxes, 5ports for instance.
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Hi decaf, very good guide! One question about mechanics, how did you get better at being precise with your mouse? Out of curiosity, what is your DPI set to? A lot of people have some insane high DPI and I am not even sure how they can click so well -.-
I've tried 1600 dpi with the windows settings on 6, but can't seem to be very accurate. I would like to play around there, but right now I seem to have good control @ 1200-1300 DPI.
Thanks!
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I totally agree with this thread! There are so many things you can do at once to improve. I don't think you have to work on everything at once but focusing on one thing at atime is what really helped me. Im a 1v1 silver league Terran player. Lately ive been on a 12/15 game win streak. Large part is due to upgrades. I was terrible at getting my units upgraded. But lately i have decided to fucus on getting 3-3 as early as i can. Now i am focusing on trying to expand earlier while not stopping scv production.
Very well written!
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On April 21 2012 02:25 dotCom wrote:
Hi decaf, very good guide! One question about mechanics, how did you get better at being precise with your mouse? Out of curiosity, what is your DPI set to? A lot of people have some insane high DPI and I am not even sure how they can click so well -.-
I've tried 1600 dpi with the windows settings on 6, but can't seem to be very accurate. I would like to play around there, but right now I seem to have good control @ 1200-1300 DPI.
Thanks!
Hey,
my dpi is set to 1800, on windows I got 6/11 and ingame I got 51% (my screen has 24 inches). I used to have about 81% with higher dpi a few months ago, reducing that insane speed helped me being more precise quite a bit. It didn't even take me long to get used to it, because it felt so natural, like only a couple of games. I think you should play at the highest speed you're comfortable at, if it's too fast, reduce it. 1200dpi sounds fine, too (I wouldn't go any lower, though).
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I'd like to ask a question to expand on your concept of practice partners more.
I'm a gold Toss who just switched to Terran. I think I am capable of doing what you have mentioned, but I'm not sure if I can get someone that's about my level in Terran. Do you think it's better to play people your level, or do you think that playing against masters would be beneficial? The guide is great btw thanks.
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On April 21 2012 02:25 dotCom wrote:
Hi decaf, very good guide! One question about mechanics, how did you get better at being precise with your mouse? Out of curiosity, what is your DPI set to? A lot of people have some insane high DPI and I am not even sure how they can click so well -.-
I've tried 1600 dpi with the windows settings on 6, but can't seem to be very accurate. I would like to play around there, but right now I seem to have good control @ 1200-1300 DPI.
Thanks!
On 1920x1200 resolution I would recomend 5000 CPI. Might take you a few days to adapt. Most people who use my computer think I am insane. Also you _HAVE_ to read and apply this. http://donewmouseaccel.blogspot.se/2010/03/markc-windows-7-mouse-acceleration-fix.html
Because in windows there is a bug where you cannot turn off acceleration by turning off acceleration. Unless you apply the fix above.
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Your guide makes a lot of sense for someone who is already good at the game. Doing what you described is great for taking a person hanging around in platinum or diamond and helping them to go up a league.
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On April 21 2012 14:53 9-BiT wrote:
I'd like to ask a question to expand on your concept of practice partners more.
I'm a gold Toss who just switched to Terran. I think I am capable of doing what you have mentioned, but I'm not sure if I can get someone that's about my level in Terran. Do you think it's better to play people your level, or do you think that playing against masters would be beneficial? The guide is great btw thanks.
Actually, the best practice partner for you would probably be a Platinum player, if you have the choice. You want a player who usually beats you, but not always: You'll learn more from a Platinum than getting your ass constantly handed to you by a Master player. Gold over Master if those are your choices though.
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On April 21 2012 14:53 9-BiT wrote:
I'd like to ask a question to expand on your concept of practice partners more.
I'm a gold Toss who just switched to Terran. I think I am capable of doing what you have mentioned, but I'm not sure if I can get someone that's about my level in Terran. Do you think it's better to play people your level, or do you think that playing against masters would be beneficial? The guide is great btw thanks.
By the time you should be looking for practice partners you already improved a bunch, people underestimated how much of a boost practicing a build order in a relieved environment actually gives. If you always know what step comes next up to 10 minutes and then know how the mid and late game should look like in general (how much production you can support) you already are at masters level (if you don't supply block yourself every 10 seconds and have some grasp at micro). If you are satisfied with what you do in those build order test maps go get them practice partners (if you figure you didn't know your build well enough just go back to the build order map and practice it a little more).
Just try it out, go for a diamond guy and see how well you can do. Then get a masters guy. I wouldn't go lower than diamond though, because people in the lower leagues don't play builds you can accout for.
The only thing you need to worry about is cheese, because that takes a little more experience to fend off and you will get a few losses from that against lesser players. But just stick to what the pro does, copy expand timings, movement of units, build order etc.
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Great guide I have one question though.Would you recommend to copy the timing of the 3rd for example even though it really depends on a lot of things (for example if the opponent expands a lot, makes pressure...)? I'd really like to see an example of a stolen build so I know what you write down and how you do it.
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On April 21 2012 18:08 Gomox wrote:Great guide I have one question though.Would you recommend to copy the timing of the 3rd for example even though it really depends on a lot of things (for example if the opponent expands a lot, makes pressure...)? I'd really like to see an example of a stolen build so I know what you write down and how you do it.
No, I filter out mistakes that occur in the replay. If the pro's macro slips and he takes his expo at 700 instead of at 400 minerals I'm not gonna copy that.
Added an example to the OP under the Pick one build order for that matchup from a well-established pro-section.
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Don't you think that it limits your gameplay and prevents a reactionary game style if you copy a build up until the 10 minute mark? Or do you use these building just as goals that you want to reach? Like: Ok, he attacked me early. However, I still know that I want to get 3 gates and a robo down.
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On April 21 2012 19:54 Gomox wrote:
Don't you think that it limits your gameplay and prevents a reactionary game style if you copy a build up until the 10 minute mark? Or do you use these building just as goals that you want to reach? Like: Ok, he attacked me early. However, I still know that I want to get 3 gates and a robo down.
Of course, if you scout something like a roach rush with your hellions you want to make a marauder asap and throw down a bunker. Generally those builds account for most of the things plus most people play standard anyways, because there's a reason why certain strategies are standard.
If you scout something significant you gotta deviate your build if it doesn't accout for it already. Just be smart about what you do. If going back to your build is the rigtht solution after fending off such a roach rush (for instance) then do it, if you can win the game right now then do that.
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I think you're definitely on the right track when you talk about choosing a matchup to focus on. I personally despise ladder practice simply because you can't choose the matchup. It's much better to spend a few hours straight focusing on one matchup at a time, which is why it's so important to stay good mannered when you ladder and ask the skilled players that you face for tips / practice.
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Well nice guide ty ! I just got a question. I, myself, improve on my own too by only doing one or two builds per matchup and react properly.
My main problem i think is my apm. At the start of the game my apm is huge cause i know well my build and i spam but midgame i got smtgh like 80-90 apm which i find really low (High diamond). Do you have some advices or tricks to improve this ?
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On April 22 2012 02:28 Serge89 wrote:
Well nice guide ty ! I just got a question. I, myself, improve on my own too by only doing one or two builds per matchup and react properly.
My main problem i think is my apm. At the start of the game my apm is huge cause i know well my build and i spam but midgame i got smtgh like 80-90 apm which i find really low (High diamond). Do you have some advices or tricks to improve this ?
The only way to up your apm is by playing a ton. If you know your build really well you don't have to spend time on thinking about the next step. If you have the entire game mapped out in your head you can focus on following that map as quickly as possible. Just stay focused and try to get useful actions inbetween the actions needed to play your build order. If you send your SCV to build a CC, cycle through your buildings, check minimap, try to stack SCVs on close mineral patches whatever.
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Thank you very much for this :D I'm going to work like this and comment on the results
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I think though that u should watch every replay, atleast where you lost.. You will ALWAYS find stuff to improve,that you wouldnt have found if u didnt watch it.. Nice guide though,. really!
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Really really nice writeup!
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my biggest problem with this is PvZ as it feels like all the code S players do is just 2base allin the zergs rather than go for macro play :/
that said it's kinda hard overall for me to find replays of really good players in sc2
bw was a lot easier on that due to the replays bar on the left side of teamliquid
where do you suggest i find some replays (specifically of PvZ macro play or PvP in general)
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Why steal a pro build order? Just make one yourself if you have enough time on your hands to be practicing it a dozen times on a build order tester. Better yet, don't test it. Ladder it and see where it's funky.
Make a style for yourself
Don't justify things with "Because MC does it", justify it with your own strategic sense and logic!
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Pick one build order for that matchup
This is the biggest trap with improving IMO and it is painfully obvious with almost everybody who falls short of masters with hundreds of games played. "Build Orders" do not work and never have, the mentality of following a list of things to do with any kind of strictness will just get you killed or fail to give you required edges over your opponent through scouting and adaptation in various ways.
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I strongly disagree with both of you.
@ShatterZer0: First off, you simply do not have the time or experience to make up your own build orders that will keep up with build order pros came up with. Plus as I already stated, if you do something different everygame you're going to make extremely different mistakes everygame and you'll have an insanely hard time fixing those mistakes.
Even pros like Stephano who supposedly have their own styles all learned from other pros until they were good enough to justify such deviations. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel?
@Cyro: This is just nonsense. Optimally you learn from a set of replays and see where the important edges one player won over the other come from. If you think following a build order means not making marauders and additional bunkers vs a roach rush (as an example) then that's your interpretation.
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Agree with decaf.
You are best off learning from what the pros do. That doesn't mean you can't make slight adaptations, but try not to make big changes.
There is huge variety in pro games, find a style and a build you like and you think suits your strengths and try it out. Try to watch as many vods of this build as possible so you know when and how to adapt it in different situations.
This is all assuming your goal is to win games and to improve. If your goal is just to have fun, then feel free to try out crazy builds.
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On April 23 2012 02:26 decaf wrote:
I strongly disagree with both of you.
@ShatterZer0: First off, you simply do not have the time or experience to make up your own build orders that will keep up with build order pros came up with. Plus as I already stated, if you do something different everygame you're going to make extremely different mistakes everygame and you'll have an insanely hard time fixing those mistakes.
Even pros like Stephano who supposedly have their own styles all learned from other pros until they were good enough to justify such deviations. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel?
If you want to play like a pro, do as pros do. Truly great pro's don't just watch a replay and play verbatim.
Sure, you can hit Masters in a flash by mimicking a pro, but will that make you a good player? It'll make you a player that will never be as good as the player you're mimicking. It'll make you a meth cook and not a chemist. xD
All that stealing builds and playing verbatim does is fortify some kind of twisted thoughtless macro that will only be of very general use. You get such general advancement with playing your own way as long as you're critical enough of your own play.
Most of all.... just choosing a Pro's play without understanding the basic strategic premise of the build itself doesn't really foster any sort of learning at all... and learning is what makes SC2 fun, right?
"Slight Adaptations" implies you can actually tell the difference between "correct" and "incorrect play", in which case you're likely at a skill level where you shouldn't need to mindlessly plug away at some other person's train of thought.
Then again... most people take pleasure and fun from Starcraft in winning... so I guess if you equate increasing your win rate to becoming a better player... then yeah. "Learn from the Pros"...
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Just because you start off imitating doesn't mean you won't progress beyond that. Even top pros "borrow" builds off each other.
In almost all disciplines people start by learning what has gone before. Top chefs start by learning classic recipes, physicists start off with Newton's laws, etc. They start with the basic building blocks and when they understand the basics they move on.
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On April 23 2012 03:41 Willzzz wrote:
Just because you start off imitating doesn't mean you won't progress beyond that. Even top pros "borrow" builds off each other.
In almost all disciplines people start by learning what has gone before. Top chefs start by learning classic recipes, physicists start off with Newton's laws, etc. They start with the basic building blocks and when they understand the basics they move on.
Yes, but this kind of completely one sided thinking has to be followed up with serious creativity and deep knowledge of the game itself... otherwise you find yourself becoming a carbon copy with nothing but the greatest of imitative skill. I could name a dozen or so players, especially Koreans, in both Broodwar and SC2 that were just that... even at the highest level.
These players almost never become the Bonjwa, and even if they do win a major tournament memories of them are washed away in an instant.
Using the basics does not mean you understand the basics, and telling people that they will become better players, especially Diamond or Masters players, by blasting out games and mimicking pros is just plain wrong in many cases. Take, for example, iNcontroL. He's previously stated that in doing this for 8-10 hours a day for months on end wasn't close to productive, in fact it almost teaches you to stop questioning why you do these things.
All my point really is, is that if you want to improve, your mindset is much more important than the number of games you play or how stringent your practice regimen may be.
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I really don't think there is anything to suggest that starting off with standard build orders stifles creativity.
Let's ditch this word mimicking, because that never really happens. Starcraft is a lot like chess, you might have a million games that all start off with a certain opening, but they all end in different ways. Like chess an opening in starcraft isn't some magic recipe to win you the game, it just gets you to a mid game that you feel comfortable with.
Most people going for these crazy strats have really bad, negative reasons for doing so. It's usually because they have very poor understanding of standard play.
I really don't understand why you think that people following the standard meta game are all devoid of imagination and robotic in their actions. It just isn't true. Nor does it imply that you just grind countless games and have a poor mindset. These things are completely independent of which strategy you choose to play.
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I really want to try this but Im having trouble finding standard replays from pro players that I want to replicate. For example I saw on TLPD that MMA has a 75% win percentage in TvZ, so I downloaded some replays from SC2replays but he does crazy builds that are never the same. Obviously in a Best out of X series players arent going to do the same build every game, so where do you find standard builds that the pro's put their own spins on. I also have watched alot of Day9 TvX videos, so I may just choose to steal those.
I am currently near the top of platinum, hoping to break into diamond in the near future. I play pretty standard in every matchup, but dont have everything mapped out perfectly:
TvP: 1 rax FE - 3 rax - fast medivacs and decently fast upgrades
TvZ: reactored hellions expo - fast drop harass - marine tank aggression
TvT: reaper expo - mass marine - marine tank aggression
So basically I want to find builds like those, but that have subtle things like upgrades and tech mapped out.
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On April 23 2012 12:59 Riverdragon0 wrote:
I really want to try this but Im having trouble finding standard replays from pro players that I want to replicate. For example I saw on TLPD that MMA has a 75% win percentage in TvZ, so I downloaded some replays from SC2replays but he does crazy builds that are never the same. Obviously in a Best out of X series players arent going to do the same build every game, so where do you find standard builds that the pro's put their own spins on. I also have watched alot of Day9 TvX videos, so I may just choose to steal those.
I am currently near the top of platinum, hoping to break into diamond in the near future. I play pretty standard in every matchup, but dont have everything mapped out perfectly:
TvP: 1 rax FE - 3 rax - fast medivacs and decently fast upgrades
TvZ: reactored hellions expo - fast drop harass - marine tank aggression
TvT: reaper expo - mass marine - marine tank aggression
So basically I want to find builds like those, but that have subtle things like upgrades and tech mapped out.
that seems like a good starting point, i personally get stuck at this point where i have inspiration for builds that numerous pros do but can't manage to find replays or vods of them :/
what you do here is just pick timings that make sense and just adjust from there
like "i want to make my factory asap but keep constant scv/marine/depot production off of 2cc 3rax and get 2 bunkers so i don't die to an allin" then if the factory timing is too late cut marines to make it faster or get gas sooner stuff like that, this is the type of thing you do vs a practice partner (obviously a very simple example) here you would figure out the earliest you could get the factory without dying to an allin/early push/or cutting scvs
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On April 23 2012 04:10 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:41 Willzzz wrote:
Just because you start off imitating doesn't mean you won't progress beyond that. Even top pros "borrow" builds off each other.
In almost all disciplines people start by learning what has gone before. Top chefs start by learning classic recipes, physicists start off with Newton's laws, etc. They start with the basic building blocks and when they understand the basics they move on. Yes, but this kind of completely one sided thinking has to be followed up with serious creativity and deep knowledge of the game itself... otherwise you find yourself becoming a carbon copy with nothing but the greatest of imitative skill. I could name a dozen or so players, especially Koreans, in both Broodwar and SC2 that were just that... even at the highest level. These players almost never become the Bonjwa, and even if they do win a major tournament memories of them are washed away in an instant. Using the basics does not mean you understand the basics, and telling people that they will become better players, especially Diamond or Masters players, by blasting out games and mimicking pros is just plain wrong in many cases. Take, for example, iNcontroL. He's previously stated that in doing this for 8-10 hours a day for months on end wasn't close to productive, in fact it almost teaches you to stop questioning why you do these things. All my point really is, is that if you want to improve, your mindset is much more important than the number of games you play or how stringent your practice regimen may be.
Focusing on one build is about improving mechanics and execution. It is not until you execute a build close to perfectly that you can even really begin to understand it. If you are doing nearly everything sub optimally you are not experiencing strategy in the game correctly. You have to learn to walk before you can run. It is only after you have practiced several builds robotically, mechanically, perfectly that you can begin to explore what it possible on your own. This is true of any sport or game.
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On April 23 2012 12:59 Riverdragon0 wrote:
I really want to try this but Im having trouble finding standard replays from pro players that I want to replicate. For example I saw on TLPD that MMA has a 75% win percentage in TvZ, so I downloaded some replays from SC2replays but he does crazy builds that are never the same. Obviously in a Best out of X series players arent going to do the same build every game, so where do you find standard builds that the pro's put their own spins on. I also have watched alot of Day9 TvX videos, so I may just choose to steal those.
I am currently near the top of platinum, hoping to break into diamond in the near future. I play pretty standard in every matchup, but dont have everything mapped out perfectly:
TvP: 1 rax FE - 3 rax - fast medivacs and decently fast upgrades
TvZ: reactored hellions expo - fast drop harass - marine tank aggression
TvT: reaper expo - mass marine - marine tank aggression
So basically I want to find builds like those, but that have subtle things like upgrades and tech mapped out.
Hey, yea I know, tournaments haven't really been releasing replays as of late. It's not just you running low on them. For TvZ I could suggest Polt's marine hellion build, if you download the assembly winter replays you will find like 4 replays of him doing this, he really does this build a lot and I think it's great.(I even uploaded one of them in the OP if you click on the spoiler).
Or you can use the GSL, for instance I'll steal IMMvp's heavy barracks play vs protoss from the GSL VOD as soon as I'm able to play again. Or as you mentioned the day9 dailies. I got my TvP 2rax build (marineking vs whitera) and my TvT marine tank build (thorzain vs puma) from there. You could even go back to the blizzard cup or whatever it was called and steal Mvp's double expand build from there.
For other races I really don't know, check the same places.These are hard times when it comes to actually finding replays. I hope MLG releases some in the near future..
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On April 11 2012 03:18 decaf wrote:
@ catid: I just felt like offering a practice regiment. Watching replays or not is up to each and everyone. Personally I almost never do, because I tend to know why I lost or what I did wrong anyways (especially if you mess up your build order -> you should always know how it looks like exectued perfectly from the pro replays). Just because it's not in the OP it doesn't mean you're not allowed to do it. There's no way of practicing that's perfect for everyone, I just posted what I find to be the most efficient way. I personally think watching each and every replay is a huge waste of time, only pick the ones when you're left behind with confusion after a game.
I feel like people overrate the importance of watching replays after a loss. It just usually seems like a waste of time when you could be spending that extra 5-10 minutes just starting up another game. Unless you really cannot figure out how you lost, or you need specific information from it, it's almost counterproductive to just watch every replay.
On April 23 2012 03:14 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:26 decaf wrote:
I strongly disagree with both of you.
@ShatterZer0: First off, you simply do not have the time or experience to make up your own build orders that will keep up with build order pros came up with. Plus as I already stated, if you do something different everygame you're going to make extremely different mistakes everygame and you'll have an insanely hard time fixing those mistakes.
Even pros like Stephano who supposedly have their own styles all learned from other pros until they were good enough to justify such deviations. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel?
If you want to play like a pro, do as pros do. Truly great pro's don't just watch a replay and play verbatim. Sure, you can hit Masters in a flash by mimicking a pro, but will that make you a good player? It'll make you a player that will never be as good as the player you're mimicking. It'll make you a meth cook and not a chemist. xD All that stealing builds and playing verbatim does is fortify some kind of twisted thoughtless macro that will only be of very general use. You get such general advancement with playing your own way as long as you're critical enough of your own play. Most of all.... just choosing a Pro's play without understanding the basic strategic premise of the build itself doesn't really foster any sort of learning at all... and learning is what makes SC2 fun, right? "Slight Adaptations" implies you can actually tell the difference between "correct" and "incorrect play", in which case you're likely at a skill level where you shouldn't need to mindlessly plug away at some other person's train of thought. Then again... most people take pleasure and fun from Starcraft in winning... so I guess if you equate increasing your win rate to becoming a better player... then yeah. "Learn from the Pros"...
Huh? Even the bonjwas still use nearly the same basic opening as the rest of their peers. It's not like Flash didn't 1 rax fe the same as everyone else tvz.
The thing that makes a good player great is decision making, not necessarily coming up with gimmicky builds all the time. Nearly every matchup at this point of the game plays out more or less optimally at the start. Not taking a quick 3rd in zvp is pretty much just being stupid.
"So come right up and let me squash your creativity with my iron fist of conservative play."--Nony
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Im an EU Bronze level player, and I have found that Build orders and pros replays don't apply at this level.
I follow building groupings, and play in a style that suits me - this way I UNDERSTAND why I need to do something rather than doing it by memory.
I don't want to fall into the trap of seeing PvZ (for example) and my brain ticking...9 Pylon (Scout) 13 Forge etc etc. I want to think, okay dependent on what the Zerg is doing when I scout i'll switch my build order. FFE is a very open build and if I see early pool, I cannon up and get that gateway down and chrono out that Zealot to wall off vs his lings. If I see hatch first I can match him by taking an expansion before I pop down a forge so I can keep up with him in terms of macro.
I like to refine the builds myself, without a build order and once I have gotten something that I think works and can understand why it works, I look up the actual build order for the adjustments that I may or may not need to make dependent on the situation. My veiw (not that it has any weight here) is that this is a game that cannot be won with a script, which is what a build order is, and a lot of folk I know fell into this trap and have in turn quit SC2.
Something I havent done (and the reason I was placed in Bronze and have been there for 79 (wins) ) is play with a practice partner. I live with the guy who tought me how to play SC2, so I feel retarded for not using him as a resource in more than just yelling at me when I do something wrong. I also don't play custom games, I hopped straight into ladder after doing my Practice matches and got plopped in bronze where I have been bouncing in and out of the top 8 thus far - this is a mistake I will have to live with and I will continue to learn the hard way, losing and gaining my ladder points until a promotion decides to pop up and drag me out of the hellish depths of the Bronze League.
Although now I beleive I am ready for Silver, and assuming I don't get PvZ Stephano Roaches for the next week I'm looking for a promotion.
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Any link for Orion's BO tester. I can't find it.
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On April 24 2012 03:02 theBIGdog wrote:
Any link for Orion's BO tester. I can't find it.
You need to look for it ingame, but I'm not sure if it also exists on the NA servers. If it does not, just look for others. I'm sure you'll fine one typing in build order into the searchbar ingame. Just try them out. Any that lets you restart without having to leave the game will do.
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United States1005 Posts
Thanks for this advice, decaf. I followed a lot of it...especially the focus on hammering out BOs. I didn't stop laddering while practicing the BOs as I didn't have the discipline to stay away from that "FInd Match" button. But it took me about a month, using elements of your method, to move out of diamond and into masters. This after having been in diamond for 6 seasons. Cheers.
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I strongly disagree with both of you.
@ShatterZer0: First off, you simply do not have the time or experience to make up your own build orders that will keep up with build order pros came up with. Plus as I already stated, if you do something different everygame you're going to make extremely different mistakes everygame and you'll have an insanely hard time fixing those mistakes.
Even pros like Stephano who supposedly have their own styles all learned from other pros until they were good enough to justify such deviations. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel?
Im an EU Bronze level player, and I have found that Build orders and pros replays don't apply at this level.
I follow building groupings, and play in a style that suits me - this way I UNDERSTAND why I need to do something rather than doing it by memory.
I don't want to fall into the trap of seeing PvZ (for example) and my brain ticking...9 Pylon (Scout) 13 Forge etc etc. I want to think, okay dependent on what the Zerg is doing when I scout i'll switch my build order. FFE is a very open build and if I see early pool, I cannon up and get that gateway down and chrono out that Zealot to wall off vs his lings. If I see hatch first I can match him by taking an expansion before I pop down a forge so I can keep up with him in terms of macro.
Listen to decaf. He's much smarter and better than you, and he's telling you that pros are much smarter and better than he'll ever be. If your build order doesn't look similar to a pros, then 100% you are fucking up. The pros have played more than 1000x games as you, you can guarantee that there isn't any build that you can come up with that they haven't done already.
100% - if the pros don't do something (like go infestors in ZvZ before hydras), it's because it's bad. You just are too low level to know why yet. I just learned at about 1000 points masters how much better hydras are than infestors in ZvP and ZvZ.
As always decaf, great guide. Your stuff is always completely top notch, and I hope one day my guides will be viewed as half as good as yours. I'm a 1100 points masters (random mid-masters scrub ;/ ) and I took a lot away from it.
Your bit about watching streams, can be applied to posting to forums (the reason I'm not in code s right now -_- ), reddit (the worst of all), and watching tournaments (i try to only watch match-ups that I'm currently questioning or struggling with, and only in the gsl, and in fast forward, as well as macro timings of zvp). All this stuff just kills your ranking - there's a reason you always hear the pros on SOTG (yea another horrible rank killer, but i listen to it at work on recording) like nony, nestea, destiny, naniwa, incontrol, idra, all say "i didnt see that game" or "i heard about it but didn't watch it" - it's because they are busy playing. You will very, very rarely see top players post on this forum, because they know to play more. Just perusing a couple series of GSL, and posting on TL for replay analysis (something thats really helpful actually) is all you need.
One thing though - I try to watch all of my replays, win or lose (unless it was a stupidly easy win), to see if maybe I won because he didn't push out, if I lost because I didn't push out, and macro benchmarking. I don't think it's bad to watch 100% of your replays, you can always 8x through them, and just check out the questionable parts. The worst is when you rage over a game and refuse to watch it.
Another tip I'd add though - saying glhf/gg. I'm seriously the most bm person on b.net, I'm a huge rager, I offensively gg and everything. But I decided to start saying that stuff just to try it out, and I realized very quickly that it helps you log in more games. It lets you get over losses much quicker and keep playing, it just lets you play with less tilt... you don't need to be GM to do it (every time someone says 'glhf' to me i'm so tempted to just say 'fuck you'), just robotically do it, and walla, your gaming will increase as will your rank.
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@ Belial88
You are a freaking legend. I've lurked your strategy posts for sometime now and have always found them incredibly well presented and, more importantly, thought out. Thanks for all the great work you have done.
I am not so sure about the streams/forums thing, though. To be honest, I would tell people to do what they enjoy. If you feel like watching a tournament or stream more than you want to play at the present moment, do that. There are definite benefits to watching tournaments and streams, namely that you better understand what each race is capable of (tournaments) and you better understand how you are supposed to do things (streams). The cerebral aspect of your game will be heightened by watching the best in a way that it won't through playing by yourself. Pros don't use time on this because they have already reached that understanding through trial and error, why not skip the error and use the lessons already learned by the best in the game?
decaf hit the nail on the head with his spam comment; at a high masters level I was finding my main deficiencies to be an inability to multitask adequately and a lack of precision. I was playing at around 150-180 EPM. Over the past few weeks I began forcing myself to spam throughout the game and have found that not only am I able to keep up with everything that goes on in my games (220-240 EPM) but my precision has increased drastically. By making myself constantly cycle, I took the crutches out of my gameplay and forced my actions to become more meaningful and precise. If you are focused on spamming your control groups the precision with which you force yourself to micro is crazy.
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^ I mean have fun, whatever. But if you want to improve as a player, you should really, really limit how much you watch tournies and streams (as in just a few, very few, key series of your own race, of match-ups that you need help with), and just about never go on discussion boards besides replay analysis.
Following a whole tournament is wayyyy too much time consumed, even just a weekend of MLG, but watching maybe 2-5 series is good. You don't need to watch every game to figure things out, just a few key games of your race played by good players, against good players (what's especially best, is reading the reports and write-ups of stuff, especially when they do the ranking of games by entertainment value of the GSL, as 2 star games generally don't have much to learn from, but a 5 star may).
It's not like pros don't use this time because it's 'figured out'. They don't do this stuff because it mean less games played. You rarely even see 1200+ points masters post frequently. The overwhelming majority of people who are active here, are mid-masters or below.
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On April 23 2012 01:54 ShatterZer0 wrote:Why steal a pro build order? Just make one yourself if you have enough time on your hands to be practicing it a dozen times on a build order tester. Better yet, don't test it. Ladder it and see where it's funky. Make a style for yourself Don't justify things with "Because MC does it", justify it with your own strategic sense and logic!
I can testify that this works, but don't go too off the rails.
My own example is from TvP. I would go 1rax FE into 4rax Stim/Shield marine/marauder push that hit earlier than a lot of timings and often would outright win the game, which was awesome. I stopped doing it around diamond, when I dabbled in a variety of builds, but I could probably do that build again if I wanted to.
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On June 04 2012 12:20 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
I strongly disagree with both of you.
@ShatterZer0: First off, you simply do not have the time or experience to make up your own build orders that will keep up with build order pros came up with. Plus as I already stated, if you do something different everygame you're going to make extremely different mistakes everygame and you'll have an insanely hard time fixing those mistakes.
Even pros like Stephano who supposedly have their own styles all learned from other pros until they were good enough to justify such deviations. Why would you try to reinvent the wheel?
Im an EU Bronze level player, and I have found that Build orders and pros replays don't apply at this level.
I follow building groupings, and play in a style that suits me - this way I UNDERSTAND why I need to do something rather than doing it by memory.
I don't want to fall into the trap of seeing PvZ (for example) and my brain ticking...9 Pylon (Scout) 13 Forge etc etc. I want to think, okay dependent on what the Zerg is doing when I scout i'll switch my build order. FFE is a very open build and if I see early pool, I cannon up and get that gateway down and chrono out that Zealot to wall off vs his lings. If I see hatch first I can match him by taking an expansion before I pop down a forge so I can keep up with him in terms of macro.
Listen to decaf. He's much smarter and better than you, and he's telling you that pros are much smarter and better than he'll ever be. If your build order doesn't look similar to a pros, then 100% you are fucking up. The pros have played more than 1000x games as you, you can guarantee that there isn't any build that you can come up with that they haven't done already. 100% - if the pros don't do something (like go infestors in ZvZ before hydras), it's because it's bad. You just are too low level to know why yet. I just learned at about 1000 points masters how much better hydras are than infestors in ZvP and ZvZ.
As always decaf, great guide. Your stuff is always completely top notch, and I hope one day my guides will be viewed as half as good as yours. I'm a 1100 points masters (random mid-masters scrub ;/ ) and I took a lot away from it. Your bit about watching streams, can be applied to posting to forums (the reason I'm not in code s right now -_- ), reddit (the worst of all), and watching tournaments (i try to only watch match-ups that I'm currently questioning or struggling with, and only in the gsl, and in fast forward, as well as macro timings of zvp). All this stuff just kills your ranking - there's a reason you always hear the pros on SOTG (yea another horrible rank killer, but i listen to it at work on recording) like nony, nestea, destiny, naniwa, incontrol, idra, all say "i didnt see that game" or "i heard about it but didn't watch it" - it's because they are busy playing. You will very, very rarely see top players post on this forum, because they know to play more. Just perusing a couple series of GSL, and posting on TL for replay analysis (something thats really helpful actually) is all you need. One thing though - I try to watch all of my replays, win or lose (unless it was a stupidly easy win), to see if maybe I won because he didn't push out, if I lost because I didn't push out, and macro benchmarking. I don't think it's bad to watch 100% of your replays, you can always 8x through them, and just check out the questionable parts. The worst is when you rage over a game and refuse to watch it. Another tip I'd add though - saying glhf/gg. I'm seriously the most bm person on b.net, I'm a huge rager, I offensively gg and everything. But I decided to start saying that stuff just to try it out, and I realized very quickly that it helps you log in more games. It lets you get over losses much quicker and keep playing, it just lets you play with less tilt... you don't need to be GM to do it (every time someone says 'glhf' to me i'm so tempted to just say 'fuck you'), just robotically do it, and walla, your gaming will increase as will your rank.
That's too much appreciation x:
I actually thought about adding the stuff about teamliquid as well, because it really consumes a lot of time, but I thought better not tell people to sturp lurking TL 24/7 on TL. Don't think mods would appreciate it~ But yea, all those tasks that actually do nothing else but waste time - watching streams, browsing TL or doing whatever might as well be spent on improving (at least if it's time you're kind of investing in sc2 anyway).
I always gl hf but I never gg. That's simply how I do it, if you go into a game and simply gl hf you rarely ever get tilted, like you said. I used to rage occasionally, too, but one of my sc2 friends got banned for it so I quit raging and turned into a gl hf robot. But I really don't wanna start one of those useless "to gg or not to gg" discussions so I'm not gonna add it to the OP.
And about the replay thing, I still believe watching 100% of your replays is a waste of time. If you know why you lost, you really don't need to watch it, the chance of maybe finding something you might improve on is so small, you're better off starting anothe game.
Just for information, because you seem to enjoy my guides, it'll take a couple of months before I can write my next guide simply due to the fact that I don't get to play a whole lot - my tendonitis still is not cured, I've been having it for 3 months now - 3 months of not playing TT My next guide will be TvX anyways, oh well. The terran section is lacking anyways 
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@decaf: Regarding mechanics and spamming your macro cycle, would you recommend tabbed production or separate production? I really love the guide and want to make sure that I get the right habits down when practicing. As a protoss player I normally have separate hotkeys for Nexus, Gateways, Robo/Stargate, Forges but have read that some people recommend just doing Nexus/Upgrades and Production as two separate control groups as this makes the macro cycle easier. Your thoughts on this?
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This is a Great guide. However, 2 seasons ago when Terran was starting to have trouble as a race, I opted to learn how to play Protoss. I used 1v1 obs for about 30 games and then took to ladder on another account. In only a few days I was able to hit rank 1 master Protoss (same point value as my Terran). While that may not be the experience of everyone, I do recommend testing the waters in 1v1 obs before purchasing another account or using your first account.
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On June 11 2012 13:41 MilExo wrote:
@decaf: Regarding mechanics and spamming your macro cycle, would you recommend tabbed production or separate production? I really love the guide and want to make sure that I get the right habits down when practicing. As a protoss player I normally have separate hotkeys for Nexus, Gateways, Robo/Stargate, Forges but have read that some people recommend just doing Nexus/Upgrades and Production as two separate control groups as this makes the macro cycle easier. Your thoughts on this?
I'm sorry, I'm completely clueless when it comes to protoss TT I've played only like 3 games or so to show a fellow zerg how easy it is to all in with that race lol. Maybe someone more experienced with the protoss race can answer your question?
All I can say is that as a terran player I think hotkeying raxes, facs and ports individually is better than tabbing thru them. I guess both works though, since Mvp uses the individual hotkey setup and MKP tabs thru it so it's just a matter of practice. Something that's simply a good habit though is having both ebays and armories on one hotkey and tab thru those, since you don't need them that often so you don't waste much time tabbing thru things. I guess that applies to your Nexus/forge thing, right?
Btw, I'm finally coming back a bit from my hand injury. Haven't been able to play for 3-4 months and on day 2 of playing again I already defeated a GM player ^.^(the game only took 5 minutes, because I countered him perfectly, but oh well). My tendonitis is still there, but I think it'll go away soon. Prepare for more guides as I heal up~
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I am not familiar with the build order test map you listed. I cannot seem to find a good one on the NA server. Is there a link to a map site with the specific map you use (orions?).
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Scrub, YABOT is the typical one. It has one for most commonly played maps.
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Thanks a lot, this has helped me improving much quicker, though it can be hard to keep up the discipline at times
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EPT
