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This is a basic guide that chronicles my experimentation with the 1 gate gasless FE. Experienced players who have already studied Yuffie’s play will probably not find it that enlightening, but I hope those who typically FFE and are curious about switching might find some useful notes. I’ve also included some novel sim city that I find helpful.
Credits
My exploration of 1 gate FE was strongly influenced by CecilSunkure’s guides and stream play, as well as the Yuffie gate first build and Adonmius’s gate nexus core guide
I also studied Nyast’s 10 gate pvz , which, while somewhat cheesy, is good to have in your arsenal.
Overview
+ Show Spoiler +Most pvz 1 gate FE discussions so far have focused around some “magic sauce” build order that relies on highly specific build orders and timing attacks. This has led critics to make dismissive claims: “ffe with nexus first has better econ.” “It will always die to ling rush/roaches/baneling bust.” “Cannons are better at defending 6 pool.” “1 gate FE has no answer for hatch first. They will just out macro you.” “Zerg can defend x timing with y, so gate first is pointless.”
My thought on following these threads was: “FFE isn’t a rigid build -- why should 1 gate fe be?“
My philosophy as I experimented was to treat the build almost exactly like a FFE -- to be flexible, scout effectively, and expand as aggressively as possible with exactly the right amount of defense.
The basic build should feel very similar to a forge fast expand.
In a normal FFE, you will usually go:
Forge, (cannon) Nexus, Gateway, Gas, Cyber
The cannon cam be moved earlier or later based on scouting.
While learning a 1 gate gasless FE, I tried to change as little as possible, resulting in a build akin to Yuffies (which I discovered later):
Gateway, (zealot) Nexus, Forge, Gas, Cyber
The Zealot, like a cannon, can be early or late based on aggression from zerg.
Swapping the gateway and forge offers a few interesting perks:
1. Effortlessly safe from ling cheese. You will have 1-2 early zealots and a cute low ground ramp wall, making runbys impossible. (more on this later)
2. Possibility of early pressure such as a 4 gate or +1 zealots discourages early 3rd and greedy droning from zerg.
3. Slightly faster tech than FFE. Cyber is usually done ~ 10-20 seconds earlier vs pool first, and has the potential to be much sooner vs hatch first.
4. Early zealot map presence and option for zealot/cannon contain vs very greedy zerg
Of course, the build also has disadvantages -- it is slightly less economic than FFE, and relies on specific sim city that isn’t ideal on all maps.
Basic Build
+ Show Spoiler +Like a forge fast expand, the build will have a range of options depending on scouting and maps. Generally, the build should have: Pylon - at natural Gateway (on 10-13) Pylon - In base, or blocking hatchery Zealot (1 or 2) Nexus (on 18-22) Forge (can be before nexus in some cases) GasCyber (advanced -- can be before forge vs greedy/passive zerg.) GasPylon - at natural, to allow wall off at wider chokes @100% forge -+1 weapons, 1-2 cannons if you sense roach or ling aggression, @100% cyber - warpgate, Constant sentries from 1st gate @100% pylon - 2-3 more gateways, walling natural For those who like numbers, here is a sample build order, but this is only one possibility: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
10 probe*
12 gateway
12 probe*
14 pylon
16 zealot
19 nexus
20 forge
21 assimilator > transfer 3
22 cybernetics core
22 assimilator > transfer 3
23 photon cannon
24 warpgate
25 ground weapons level 1
26 pylon
30 gateway [2] Your actual play will vary highly, depending on what you see. Much like FFE, the number of zealots and cannons can be adjusted to match the zerg’s level of aggression.
Scouting
+ Show Spoiler +Your main decision point is around 17, after you build your first zealot. Scout on 10-12 to check, his pool timing, and adapt accordingly:
Early pool (6, 8, 11) or have not scouted
- Chrono boost zealots
- Forge ASAP.
- 1 cannon. 2 if you see more than 6 lings.
With good sim city, 3+ zealots and 1-2 cannons you can hold any ling pressure he throws at you. If you see roaches, add more cannons as necessary.
13-14 pool
- Expand after first zealot.
- Get forge and second zealot after Nexus.
- Keep your probe alive as long as possible. If you see more than 6 lings, build more zealots and drop 1-2 cannons.
Hatch First
- Nexus ASAP (before zealot or forge if possible)
- 1-2 zealots
- Can get Gas and Cyber before Forge in some cases
Hatch first - Late scout
- Cannon aggression.
If you scout last on a 4 player map, and already have 2 zealots and a forge started when you see his hatch first, you can move out with your zealots and a probe and threaten to cannon rush/contain (see nyast’s “enter the 10 gate.”) This isn’t necessary, but can force some spines/lings to even out the economic lead, and sometimes kill inexperienced players.
Sim City & Maps - Pictures!
+ Show Spoiler +As I have mentioned, this build is extremely safe against a ling runby, due to some cute sim city. You will wall your ramp on the low ground with just 1 pylon and 1 gateway. There are a few variations of a basic sim city shape you need to know. It will work for every map with a standard ramp. This shape allows you to wall off on the low ground and prevent ling runbys, making you immune to early ling cheese. It also sets you up for a full wall off of your natural. Variation 1: Pylon goes in the very center of the ramp (it’s easy to find this point with practice) Gateway goes in front of it, blocking the forward crack in the ramp. 1 zealot can then wall the ramp, completely shutting down ling runbys. ![[image loading]](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/DKBiq0-SYoCVxmCtP9WMZ4Q9UFlawC61YstFnfGVYBwnBQQggvKZt9j3oabmL7glDhzYFfIRU1g-enuKfR2MBfmgGojMOSQ31q82WG-1hkrxGdfttRs) The low ground gateway allows you to create a natural wall in very early on maps that allow it. On many maps, The forge will fit in range of your first pylon, giving you a nice wall in with the nexus-. Metalopolis: + Show Spoiler +Antiga Shipyard - + Show Spoiler +Shakuras Plateau - + Show Spoiler +Cloud Kingdom + Show Spoiler +Variation 2: In some cases you will want to place the first gateway slightly farther back to wall tightly with the nexus. In these positions, you will simply place the pylon at the back corner of the ramp, and leave a 1 space gap between the pylon and gateway like so: + Show Spoiler +This shape is just as secure, but slightly touchier to execute, as you have to know where the corners of the ramp are. It is also slightly harder for zealots to chase off lings, as there is more surface area exposed. Make sure to practice wall in shapes at each spawn location so you know what works. When learning this build, I usually placed my second pylon and cyber in side my main. However, you can also choose to place your second pylon on the low ground. This gives a little extra protection from ling cheese, and lets you wall off faster. However, it can leave your cyber vulnerable to roaches. ![[image loading]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/c0J3ASa3-ZDxJ2Zh-swU9j7CBj6M1qmXmZePQG-TdFLOPoR5p3yqvT3ZH0VBXnMRDZ_XARZQ4JVvhv8XJnP43re9OYD5Vw8crezVznFIgBKOZPSi-Vs) Finally, adding another pylon and additional gateways can quickly build a secure wall. + Show Spoiler +You can have this wall finished well before 2 base roach or baneling aggression hits on most maps. Note that if he is not doing a roach all in, you don’t need this many cannons, just 1 plus a few zealot/sentry is fine to hold against ling harass. Because it relies on specific early pylon and gateway placement, this build is only effective on maps where your ramp is close to your natural wall off. I would NOT recommend using this sim city on a map like Entombed. The awkward ramp placement makes the ramp wall-in not viable. Similarly, while the build works fine on maps like Cloud Kingdom and Shakuras, the ability to simply wall your natural with 3 structures makes this larger wall seem inefficient. Finally this wall in will obviously not work on Tal Darim, as there is no ramp. In these cases, a high ground gateway or traditional FFE is more reliable. PLEASE NOTE: The 1 space gap left by the pylon at your ramp will NOT allow massive units like archons to pass! If you are planning on having archons run around inside your base, you will need to kill this pylon in the late game. This is actually true of any ling-tight ramp wallin, high or low ground, and sometimes messes with inexperienced players trying this build for the first time.
Early Game Zealot Use
+ Show Spoiler +Your two first zealots can cause a lot of confusion for a passive zerg player. If you scout a late pool, you can move out safely to take map control.
Make sure you scout after gateway to get a read on his pool timing:
vs 11 pool or faster, don’t attempt pressure, just chill at home and defend happily. You will have 2 zealots out in time to clean up any 6 ling rush, and can expand and tech freely. If it is a 6 or 8 pool, don’t expand, and drop a forge and cannon by your ramp. On ladder maps, you can place a second pylon to wall off the ramp fully-- this will free up your zealots to keep the lings away from your wall, and you can cancel it once you have 3+ zealots out.
vs hatch first, start moving out early with your first zealot and scouting probe to his natural. Your goal is to make him build spines and lings by threatening a cannon contain. Your zealots can defend your proxy pylon and cannons as they warp in, making it extremely difficult to stop the contain with just drones. Once he builds defense, you can cancel your pylon and pull back.
vs 13-15 pool, you can move to watch tower and kill any scouting lings, and poke around his natural and third to check timing. Drop 1 cannon at your natural as you leave.
If he runs past you with his first few lings and tries to counter, don’t panic. Just chrono out 1-2 more zealots at home and continue to attack his natural. This will make him either turn around or build even more lings to defend.
Tactical notes:
*Keep your probe alive in his base as long as you can to keep an eye out for ling count and speed timing, or a switch to baneling/roach. Make sure to be active with the probe in small ling engagements: he will attempt to micro back wounded lings to kill your zealots. 2 zealot hits +1 probe hit kills a ling, so snipe lings in the red with your probe.
*If he spams mass lings with a 13 or 14 pool you will need to build cannons asap and may have to pull a few probes if your wall doesn’t finish in time.
*In most cases speed will finish ~5:00 so have your wall done and at least 1 cannon up by then.
*If you scout roach pressure you must immediately build 3-4 cannons and finish your wall off asap. chrono sentries. if you have 2-3 sentries and 4 cannons complete when he arrives, you should hold and have an econ advantage.
Transitions
+ Show Spoiler +1 gate gasless FE can be played out almost exactly like a FFE. In most cases, you will get cyber and 2 gas after your forge, and can tech normally.
The main difference I find is that you can often get an even faster third than normal due to slightly quicker warpgate, and the zerg will usually be slower economically than with a FFE due to the early threat and later 3rd.
See replays section for some examples of high level play.
Some typical paths:
+1 attack 4 gate zealot pressure (good to punish fast 3rd)
+2 blink timing attack (see adonminus’ guide for examples)
Stargate > fast third (standard ffe follow up)
Prism drop play (See Cecil’s VOD)
Conclusion/TL;DR
+ Show Spoiler +For those new to it, 1 gate FE can be played almost identically to an FFE on some maps, with a few nice perks.
The 1 pylon 1 gate low ground wall off allows you to safely expand before gas and prevent ling runbys with minimal units.
The early gateway allows for some map control with zealots and threatens a greedy zerg.
This build will not replace the FFE on all maps. However, in some cases it can provide a nice alternative with slightly faster tech options.
Replays/VODS
+ Show Spoiler +Please feel free to submit your replays, and I will link them here. I can also add replays of how the wall in fairs vs various cheese/allins upon request. Masters/Pro examples: YUFFIEhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE#ReplaysYuffie is the go to source for examples of pro 1 gate fe. His play is aggressive and flexible, and every game is a little different. The replays linked show some good demonstrations vs various zerg timing attacks and a range of mid game transitions. CECINSUNKURECecil does a variety of 1 gate fe builds, with and without gas. His builds are flexible and vary widely, and while he doesn’t use everything I’ve laid out here, he is a good example of masters 1 gate fe play. http://www.twitch.tv/cecilsunkure/b/312413913. Best Example: 3rd Game @ 32:00. Antiga Shipyard. Gateway first, nice low ground wall in. Early 3rd and sweet ling/roach defense. Fun game to watch. Two other pvzs: 1st game 1:00 Gateway first opening. Zerg evo blocks and rushes with zerglings, Cecil demonstrates a simple cannon/zealot defense. The defense could have been made even easier with sim city discussed here. Cecil follows up with his trademark prism > immortal/templar! 2nd game @18:00. 1 gate gasless FE vs pool first. Ling poke is poorly controlled, but you can again see how some simple sim city would make it even easier to deal with. Ultimately loses to a nice corrupter/roach timing in mid/late game, but still shows a nice macro transition. I'll add links to more VODs as I find them.
Questions for Discussion
+ Show Spoiler +- When is it safe to play gas/cyber before forge? What scouting information do you look for?
- When should you scout on a given map? after pylon? after gateway?
- What gateway timing do you use? (10, 11, 12, 13, 14) What advantages does each provide?
- What are some effective timing attacks that take advantage of the faster cyber?
- What other map specific sim city should a player know to get the most out of 1 gate fe?
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I still don't get why you would prefer this style over FFE on the majority of the maps.
Basically you're trading some of economy for a slightly faster tech and some zealot pressure. I just don't like the overall payoff for it. Walling at your ramp to main is often much worse then walling at a choke if the map supports it (you deny vision and have a much more comfortable wall later on at the choke). You're also forced into zealots whereas with FFE you're much more open to what you can do, in some cases I'd simply wouldn't want zealots at all.
Finally I also think FFE is safer against many cheese openings, defending a good 6 pool, 3 roach rush or just 2 hatch roach attack is much easier with a normal FFE imo. Deviations from standard also cost you much more to adapt then with a normal forge fe I think. FFE goes nexus-forge-pylon-gate-cannon and if zerg has an earlier pool you only need to do forge before nexus and cannon before gate usually. With this 1 gate FE style you have to deviate much more from the ideal path I think.
Overall I only see some value in this style on maps that:
- are 2 player so you can get away with the late scouting
- you want to wall from your ramp anyways
- zealot pressure is likely to be useful
As it stands that's only korhal compound for me now, all other maps I prefer FFE or a 'sentry expand' really. Moving the gate forward in the build just doesn't make sense to me as I think the tech speed of the expand build is more limited by minerals then it is by gateway timing really. With a normal FFE gate before cannon you can hardly afford a cyber earlier anyway so i don't see the point here. Also fast cyber is not that crucial i think, fast stargate/robo/blink or 6 gate attack is imo and overall I think FFE just does that much more efficient.
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-Been playing around with this opening a lot. I'm not sure what's better, initial wall-off at the bottom or top of your ramp. They both have pros and cons. Top of the ramp looks like a normal gateway opening until you drop your 2nd pylon on the low ground and is safer vs cheese. Bottom of the ramp first makes your wall-off at your natural finish quicker and/or stronger (i.e. no exposed pylons).
-I do not believe there is any reason to scout before 12/13. Yufie scouts at like 15/16. 12/13 scout will spot an early pool earlier, possibly before you throw down your nexus @ 17. I started out scouting at 13 but now I'm trying out scouting @ 15/16 as I get more comfortable with the build.
-I gate @ 13 for max econ and since I don't make a zealot right away to save for nexus. However you do want to queue a zealot right away in case of an early pool and then cancel it to make your nexus if it's not needed.
-In regards to the cyber timing it depends on how fast you need the forge, which depends on how fast they get ling speed.
-Gas timings will vary depending on your opening.
-Zealot pressure with +1 and WG done is a strong early game timing vs fast 3 base, but be careful vs 2-base baneling bust. It feels like to me you need sentries to defend vs baneling busts.
-The early WG timing can indeed help you secure an early 3rd. I have been faking zealot pressure and grabbing a <7:00 min third vs fast 3 hatch builds. So far it seems quite solid.
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On April 10 2012 09:08 Markwerf wrote:
I still don't get why you would prefer this style over FFE on the majority of the maps.
Basically you're trading some of economy for a slightly faster tech and some zealot pressure. I just don't like the overall payoff for it. Walling at your ramp to main is often much worse then walling at a choke if the map supports it (you deny vision and have a much more comfortable wall later on at the choke). You're also forced into zealots whereas with FFE you're much more open to what you can do, in some cases I'd simply wouldn't want zealots at all.
Finally I also think FFE is safer against many cheese openings, defending a good 6 pool, 3 roach rush or just 2 hatch roach attack is much easier with a normal FFE imo. Deviations from standard also cost you much more to adapt then with a normal forge fe I think. FFE goes nexus-forge-pylon-gate-cannon and if zerg has an earlier pool you only need to do forge before nexus and cannon before gate usually. With this 1 gate FE style you have to deviate much more from the ideal path I think.
Overall I only see some value in this style on maps that:
- are 2 player so you can get away with the late scouting
- you want to wall from your ramp anyways
- zealot pressure is likely to be useful
As it stands that's only korhal compound for me now, all other maps I prefer FFE or a 'sentry expand' really. Moving the gate forward in the build just doesn't make sense to me as I think the tech speed of the expand build is more limited by minerals then it is by gateway timing really. With a normal FFE gate before cannon you can hardly afford a cyber earlier anyway so i don't see the point here. Also fast cyber is not that crucial i think, fast stargate/robo/blink or 6 gate attack is imo and overall I think FFE just does that much more efficient.
1. Economy sacrificed is very small. The only additional cost is a pylon, which also allows you to constantly produce probes. You can't compare Nexus first to Gate-zealot-nexus. If you are on a map where you can nexus first you can be greedier with this build as well.
2. Doesn't "force" zealots any more than FFE "forces" cannons. you can defend with 1-2 usually.
3. Walling main instead of natural choke is less efficient on some maps. You are correct here.
4. It defends 6 pool and 5rr easily.
5. Gas timing is either the same or faster, so 6 gate, stargate, robo, etc will be at least as good if not better.
-Been playing around with this opening a lot. I'm not sure what's better, initial wall-off at the bottom or top of your ramp. They both have pros and cons. Top of the ramp looks like a normal gateway opening until you drop your 2nd pylon on the low ground and is safer vs cheese. Bottom of the ramp first makes your wall-off at your natural finish quicker and/or stronger (i.e. no exposed pylons).
-I do not believe there is any reason to scout before 12/13. Yufie scouts at like 15/16. 12/13 scout will spot an early pool earlier, possibly before you throw down your nexus @ 17. I started out scouting at 13 but now I'm trying out scouting @ 15/16 as I get more comfortable with the build.
-I gate @ 13 for max econ and since I don't make a zealot right away to save for nexus. However you do want to queue a zealot right away in case of an early pool and then cancel it to make your nexus if it's not needed.
-In regards to the cyber timing it depends on how fast you need the forge, which depends on how fast they get ling speed.
-Gas timings will vary depending on your opening.
-Zealot pressure with +1 and WG done is a strong early game timing vs fast 3 base, but be careful vs 2-base baneling bust. It feels like to me you need sentries to defend vs baneling busts.
-The early WG timing can indeed help you secure an early 3rd. I have been faking zealot pressure and grabbing a <7:00 min third vs fast 3 hatch builds. So far it seems quite solid.
thanks for the input!
- yeah i'm not confident enough to scout that late, but it seems viable.
- queing/canceling zealot is a great technique, I forgot to include that in OP.
- I do usually train sentries from first gate after 2 zealots. I prefer longer game to fast +1 zealot.
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On April 10 2012 09:22 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:08 Markwerf wrote:
I still don't get why you would prefer this style over FFE on the majority of the maps.
Basically you're trading some of economy for a slightly faster tech and some zealot pressure. I just don't like the overall payoff for it. Walling at your ramp to main is often much worse then walling at a choke if the map supports it (you deny vision and have a much more comfortable wall later on at the choke). You're also forced into zealots whereas with FFE you're much more open to what you can do, in some cases I'd simply wouldn't want zealots at all.
Finally I also think FFE is safer against many cheese openings, defending a good 6 pool, 3 roach rush or just 2 hatch roach attack is much easier with a normal FFE imo. Deviations from standard also cost you much more to adapt then with a normal forge fe I think. FFE goes nexus-forge-pylon-gate-cannon and if zerg has an earlier pool you only need to do forge before nexus and cannon before gate usually. With this 1 gate FE style you have to deviate much more from the ideal path I think.
Overall I only see some value in this style on maps that:
- are 2 player so you can get away with the late scouting
- you want to wall from your ramp anyways
- zealot pressure is likely to be useful
As it stands that's only korhal compound for me now, all other maps I prefer FFE or a 'sentry expand' really. Moving the gate forward in the build just doesn't make sense to me as I think the tech speed of the expand build is more limited by minerals then it is by gateway timing really. With a normal FFE gate before cannon you can hardly afford a cyber earlier anyway so i don't see the point here. Also fast cyber is not that crucial i think, fast stargate/robo/blink or 6 gate attack is imo and overall I think FFE just does that much more efficient. 1. Economy sacrificed is very small. The only additional cost is a pylon, which also allows you to constantly produce probes. You can't compare Nexus first to Gate-zealot-nexus. If you are on a map where you can nexus first you can be greedier with this build as well. 2. Doesn't "force" zealots any more than FFE "forces" cannons. you can defend with 1-2 usually. 3. Walling main instead of natural choke is less efficient on some maps. You are correct here. 4. It defends 6 pool and 5rr easily. 5. Gas timing is either the same or faster, so 6 gate, stargate, robo, etc will be at least as good if not better.
- Ok eco sacrificed is not that tremendous, nexus comes 250 to 100 minerals later (depending if you were able to nex first or forge first). Not having to probe cut makes builds quite close. Once again I think this build should only be done if you feel comfortable scouting at 13 or even 15/16 as then the economy might even get slightly ahead for this build.
- Well both FFE and this build require at least a cannon, while FFE can go without zealot which I usually do (I only get zealot for zealot timings really). Because FFE can skip zealot it also has faster gas timings then this really. FFE starts 2 gas before cyber, while this build only has 1 gas started before cyber. If you want to go stargate and start sentries asap FFE will do slightly better probably but if you are looking to do zealot pressure anyway then you dont need as much gas and this build will do better i guess.
- Well any map where the choke is much better to wall (like cloud kingdom or shakuras) I wouldn't consider this style. Having a better wall at natural makes it so much easier to get third and prevent ling runby's or defend busts later. On antiga, korhal and entombed valley this point is moot obviously.
I'll have to test this build but with greedier late scouting a bit more at maps where you can't make a good wall at the choke anyways. Might be a point in doing it on those.
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On April 10 2012 09:55 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:22 quillian wrote:On April 10 2012 09:08 Markwerf wrote:
I still don't get why you would prefer this style over FFE on the majority of the maps.
Basically you're trading some of economy for a slightly faster tech and some zealot pressure. I just don't like the overall payoff for it. Walling at your ramp to main is often much worse then walling at a choke if the map supports it (you deny vision and have a much more comfortable wall later on at the choke). You're also forced into zealots whereas with FFE you're much more open to what you can do, in some cases I'd simply wouldn't want zealots at all.
Finally I also think FFE is safer against many cheese openings, defending a good 6 pool, 3 roach rush or just 2 hatch roach attack is much easier with a normal FFE imo. Deviations from standard also cost you much more to adapt then with a normal forge fe I think. FFE goes nexus-forge-pylon-gate-cannon and if zerg has an earlier pool you only need to do forge before nexus and cannon before gate usually. With this 1 gate FE style you have to deviate much more from the ideal path I think.
Overall I only see some value in this style on maps that:
- are 2 player so you can get away with the late scouting
- you want to wall from your ramp anyways
- zealot pressure is likely to be useful
As it stands that's only korhal compound for me now, all other maps I prefer FFE or a 'sentry expand' really. Moving the gate forward in the build just doesn't make sense to me as I think the tech speed of the expand build is more limited by minerals then it is by gateway timing really. With a normal FFE gate before cannon you can hardly afford a cyber earlier anyway so i don't see the point here. Also fast cyber is not that crucial i think, fast stargate/robo/blink or 6 gate attack is imo and overall I think FFE just does that much more efficient. 1. Economy sacrificed is very small. The only additional cost is a pylon, which also allows you to constantly produce probes. You can't compare Nexus first to Gate-zealot-nexus. If you are on a map where you can nexus first you can be greedier with this build as well. 2. Doesn't "force" zealots any more than FFE "forces" cannons. you can defend with 1-2 usually. 3. Walling main instead of natural choke is less efficient on some maps. You are correct here. 4. It defends 6 pool and 5rr easily. 5. Gas timing is either the same or faster, so 6 gate, stargate, robo, etc will be at least as good if not better. - Ok eco sacrificed is not that tremendous, nexus comes 250 to 100 minerals later (depending if you were able to nex first or forge first). Not having to probe cut makes builds quite close. Once again I think this build should only be done if you feel comfortable scouting at 13 or even 15/16 as then the economy might even get slightly ahead for this build. - Well both FFE and this build require at least a cannon, while FFE can go without zealot which I usually do (I only get zealot for zealot timings really). Because FFE can skip zealot it also has faster gas timings then this really. FFE starts 2 gas before cyber, while this build only has 1 gas started before cyber. If you want to go stargate and start sentries asap FFE will do slightly better probably but if you are looking to do zealot pressure anyway then you dont need as much gas and this build will do better i guess. - Well any map where the choke is much better to wall (like cloud kingdom or shakuras) I wouldn't consider this style. Having a better wall at natural makes it so much easier to get third and prevent ling runby's or defend busts later. On antiga, korhal and entombed valley this point is moot obviously. I'll have to test this build but with greedier late scouting a bit more at maps where you can't make a good wall at the choke anyways. Might be a point in doing it on those.
Thanks for taking the time to consider it seriously =)
It can be a lot of fun. It's economically quite strong, and when you can go Gate Nexus Gas Cyber your tech is MUCH earlier.
I think you are right in that it basically comes down to the map. FFE works well on a few maps where the wall in is easy. On maps where it is hard to get coverage with just 3 structures and 1 cannon, 1 gate FE shines.
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On April 10 2012 09:22 quillian wrote:
thanks for the input!
- yeah i'm not confident enough to scout that late, but it seems viable.
- queing/canceling zealot is a great technique, I forgot to include that in OP.
- I do usually train sentries from first gate after 2 zealots. I prefer longer game to fast +1 zealot.
IMO you should always do the +1 zealot timing if you scout fast 3rd and plan to eventually go for a macro game. If executed properly it will always be cost efficient because it hits a LOT earlier and a hits a LOT harder out of this opening compared to FFE. You also slow down zerg eco which is needed if you plan to stay even on eco. Pressuring @ the 7-8 min mark is so crucial vs fast 3rd builds because it is during this window they get multiple injects popping and power like 20 drones.
However grabbing gasses and a sentry after 2nd zealot is safest if you scout no fast 3rd. I still like to do the zealot pressure even vs 2-base but like I said there is a window where a 2-base baneling bust can hurt you and I'm still not sure if I can defend it well enough w/o a sentry or 2.
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On April 10 2012 09:55 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:22 quillian wrote:On April 10 2012 09:08 Markwerf wrote:
I still don't get why you would prefer this style over FFE on the majority of the maps.
Basically you're trading some of economy for a slightly faster tech and some zealot pressure. I just don't like the overall payoff for it. Walling at your ramp to main is often much worse then walling at a choke if the map supports it (you deny vision and have a much more comfortable wall later on at the choke). You're also forced into zealots whereas with FFE you're much more open to what you can do, in some cases I'd simply wouldn't want zealots at all.
Finally I also think FFE is safer against many cheese openings, defending a good 6 pool, 3 roach rush or just 2 hatch roach attack is much easier with a normal FFE imo. Deviations from standard also cost you much more to adapt then with a normal forge fe I think. FFE goes nexus-forge-pylon-gate-cannon and if zerg has an earlier pool you only need to do forge before nexus and cannon before gate usually. With this 1 gate FE style you have to deviate much more from the ideal path I think.
Overall I only see some value in this style on maps that:
- are 2 player so you can get away with the late scouting
- you want to wall from your ramp anyways
- zealot pressure is likely to be useful
As it stands that's only korhal compound for me now, all other maps I prefer FFE or a 'sentry expand' really. Moving the gate forward in the build just doesn't make sense to me as I think the tech speed of the expand build is more limited by minerals then it is by gateway timing really. With a normal FFE gate before cannon you can hardly afford a cyber earlier anyway so i don't see the point here. Also fast cyber is not that crucial i think, fast stargate/robo/blink or 6 gate attack is imo and overall I think FFE just does that much more efficient. 1. Economy sacrificed is very small. The only additional cost is a pylon, which also allows you to constantly produce probes. You can't compare Nexus first to Gate-zealot-nexus. If you are on a map where you can nexus first you can be greedier with this build as well. 2. Doesn't "force" zealots any more than FFE "forces" cannons. you can defend with 1-2 usually. 3. Walling main instead of natural choke is less efficient on some maps. You are correct here. 4. It defends 6 pool and 5rr easily. 5. Gas timing is either the same or faster, so 6 gate, stargate, robo, etc will be at least as good if not better. - Ok eco sacrificed is not that tremendous, nexus comes 250 to 100 minerals later (depending if you were able to nex first or forge first). Not having to probe cut makes builds quite close. Once again I think this build should only be done if you feel comfortable scouting at 13 or even 15/16 as then the economy might even get slightly ahead for this build. - Well both FFE and this build require at least a cannon, while FFE can go without zealot which I usually do (I only get zealot for zealot timings really). Because FFE can skip zealot it also has faster gas timings then this really. FFE starts 2 gas before cyber, while this build only has 1 gas started before cyber. If you want to go stargate and start sentries asap FFE will do slightly better probably but if you are looking to do zealot pressure anyway then you dont need as much gas and this build will do better i guess. - Well any map where the choke is much better to wall (like cloud kingdom or shakuras) I wouldn't consider this style. Having a better wall at natural makes it so much easier to get third and prevent ling runby's or defend busts later. On antiga, korhal and entombed valley this point is moot obviously. I'll have to test this build but with greedier late scouting a bit more at maps where you can't make a good wall at the choke anyways. Might be a point in doing it on those.
-There are many variants. I go 17 Nexus in most games and that has the same econ as a forge first FFE. I also wall-in my main ramp first which makes this opening more effective vs 6 pool than FFE. There is no reason to scout earlier than 13 with this opening as far as I can tell, and I'm currently playing around with scouting @ 16.
-If you don't make any zealots and don't plan to do any zealot pressure at all and want super fast tech for some 2-base aggression and/or later 10 min third FFE is better yes. From my experiences you need to make 2 zealots to be safe with this opening generally. But if you are doing zealot pressure this opening is soOooOOo much stronger than zealot pressure out of a FFE. You hit with more zealots at a much much earlier timing.
-Wall-in at your natural ramp is a nice luxury to have, but faster WG timing is much better for securing a 3rd ASAP. Like I said above I'm currently playing with a fake zealot pressure into fast 3rd before 7 mins.
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Just wanted to bump this thread since to add this nice series from TitaN in the Go4SC2 Cup March Finals where he does 1-gate FE (essentially the YufFE gate-nexus-forge-core variant) in 3 of the 4 games. He does a different follow-up in each game as well. If you search for other games from TitaN he opens with this same opening in all of his PvZs (there is a series with him vs Nerchio and Stephano for instance).
edit: oops forgot the link to the TitaN series, here it is: http://sc2casts.com/cast8075-LiveZerg-vs-Titan-Best-of-5-Go4SC2-Cup-Finals
Also as I said above I've been trying out a 15/16 scout and it does indeed seem safe like Yuffie says in his guide. Also I think your goal in any FE opening is to be as economically and tech greedy as possible while still being safe. It is in that vein that your goal should be to:
1) Get nexus up ASAP (before your first zealot)
2) Minimize Probe cuts
3) Get your core (and by extension your tech) up ASAP w/o cutting probes (and before your forge when possible)
4) Get any needed defenses (i.e. forge + cannon) as LATE as possible (depends on what you scout)
Points 1 & 2 are simple enough to understand, but point 3 is a bit tricky if you haven't done this opening before. Basically this means you need your natural walled-off before lings reach your base, and you need a cannon by the time they have ling speed done. Thus my build order has simply evolved into this vs a 14 pool or hatch first:
9 Pylon
13 Gate (queue Zealot and then cancel if not needed)
15/16 Pylon -> scout
17 Nexus
18 Zealot
Gas
Zealot
24 Core
Pylon
Forge
Your scout at 15/16 basically checks for 3 things, pool timing, gas timing, and if they expanded or not. A 10 or under pool you will probably have to cancel the Nexus if they made 6 lings right off the bat, but is holdable if they just make 2 lings. Vs a 6 pool you will see the lings running to your base with your probe scout. Vs. a 14 pool lings reach your base shortly after 4 mins (depends on map), and a 24 core -> Pylon -> forge should be thrown down before this.
Gas timing is important just to keep track of when ling speed will be done. A gas -> pool build will have ling speed done ~5:00, which means you will have to adjust your build by going forge after your first zealot to have your cannon up in time.
And obviously if you see no expand and they are 1-basing it prepare for cheese. I don't know if your expand is holdable vs a 5 or 7RR because I don't even remember the last time a zerg went 1-base. You can have cannons up in time for any 1-base cheese but unless you walled-off your natural completely (rather than just from the ramp to your nexus) the roaches can probably just snipe stuff outside of cannon range.
Basically I believe the cost of canceling your nexus if zerg does go for a 10 or faster pool is worth the cost so that I can scout much later. Since they have to go for an early pool and 4 or 6 lings right off the bat to force a cancel I wouldn't say either side has any real advantage. Also getting your core up before forge makes your tech a LOT earlier than FFE, usually ~1 min faster.
I believe the BO outlined above it the most economic and tech greedy gate-expand build you can get, and with the scouting adjustments noted above you should 100% safe with a little bit of zealot micro, with the most threatening thing after you secure your wall being a baneling bust.
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Basic concept reminds me of my gateway forge +1 weapons pressure opening I wrote up a while ago. Here's a link to that one for anyone interested in comparison:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268044
I still use the basic framework linked above, with a few tweaks here and there. I'll give this variant a try, but my experience generally leads me to be leery of using Zealots prior to +1 completing. Decent Zerg micro lets the Zealots be removed awfully cost effectively by the zerg without requiring him to tech at all.
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So, you keep talking about FFE on maps with easy walloffs at ramp, and GFE on maps with a harder walloff.
I'm a noob; could somebody give me a list with FFE maps, GFE maps, and maps that support both well?
Thanks. I think this looks really cool, is the +1 4gate Zealot pressure stronger with this (as it should be faster)?
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On April 16 2012 14:10 Crow! wrote:Basic concept reminds me of my gateway forge +1 weapons pressure opening I wrote up a while ago. Here's a link to that one for anyone interested in comparison: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268044I still use the basic framework linked above, with a few tweaks here and there. I'll give this variant a try, but my experience generally leads me to be leery of using Zealots prior to +1 completing. Decent Zerg micro lets the Zealots be removed awfully cost effectively by the zerg without requiring him to tech at all.
You can easily time +1 weapons and WG tech with a gate-nexus-core opening. If you think a +1 Zealot push is strong, one backed up with WG tech is like a gazillion times stronger. How fast you can get it depends on probes cuts, as if you don't cut probes this can be done @ 7:20, but if you do cut Probes this can be done even before 7:00 minutes.
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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE
there already is a detailed guide about gate opening. Feel free to add some points.
I am using 1. pylon down the ramp on some maps that makes sense, it's harder to hold 6 pools, but still doable.
Some current replays have also been added. ( new replays are in the draft version atm)
cheers
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I want to note that scouting at 14/16 gives you the same info as an early scout. 14 scout is good where you need to check 3 locations, 15 scout on 2 locations, and 16 scout on 1 location. At the moment that you have scouted gas and early pool while delayed expo, then you make forge before cyber, make cyber before forge against anything else. If you lack info if he is going to all in you with roaches, lings or banelings, then you could send your 2 zealots to the watchtowers to scout his all in coming and get info.
Also this build doesn't give you worst economy than FFE because you don't cut probes after making the nexus.
Finally I wanted to include a wall off I invented for shakuras plateau which walls at ramp while still being quite fast. I can't log into sc2 right now, so will just describe it and give image later. You basicly wall with 2 pylon-1forge-1core, ow you must see this, let me use my friend paint. Using my awesome paint skills I made this wall:Shakuras Wall.
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That's not a wall off lol.....
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On April 16 2012 17:52 Trusty wrote:
That's not a wall off lol.....
I know it's a bit vulnerable lol.. but it's not that bad.
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Whenever I see this I stream slow lings. It may sound ludicrus but slow lings are able to easily deny the expansion from going down from a few zealots. On most maps you'll also be there before he can toss up cannons. When speed kicks in thats basically one gate FE denied, and the Zerg will be on two base w/ speedlings.
So far I've yet to experience my slow lings arriving too late, but I assume you can cut probe production if you somehow scout the lings popping out at my base.
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On April 16 2012 15:48 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 14:10 Crow! wrote:Basic concept reminds me of my gateway forge +1 weapons pressure opening I wrote up a while ago. Here's a link to that one for anyone interested in comparison: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268044I still use the basic framework linked above, with a few tweaks here and there. I'll give this variant a try, but my experience generally leads me to be leery of using Zealots prior to +1 completing. Decent Zerg micro lets the Zealots be removed awfully cost effectively by the zerg without requiring him to tech at all. You can easily time +1 weapons and WG tech with a gate-nexus-core opening. If you think a +1 Zealot push is strong, one backed up with WG tech is like a gazillion times stronger. How fast you can get it depends on probes cuts, as if you don't cut probes this can be done @ 7:20, but if you do cut Probes this can be done even before 7:00 minutes.
In my experience, by 7:00 Zerg can have Roaches without having cut any meaningful amount of their economy, and Roaches on creep in theory remove an infinite amount of slow Zealots. Without enough time to charge up force fields, sentry+stalkers wouldn't work especially well either. And speed is likely ready too, so you can no longer retreat (especially if you made any stalkers to deal with the Roaches). Basically, by that point it seems to me more like a sissy version of a 4 gate rather than like a noncommital pressure build.
+1 weapons is strong so long as the Zerg hasn't yet developed enough tech to ignore it. I'm not convinced 7:00 or 7:20 is early enough for that to be true if they're diligent about scouting your front. I could be wrong, the lessened damage to the Zerg to have the tech ready by then could be equally balanced by the faster second base this grants compared to my build.
Another thing that worries me is scouting. When playing Gateway+Forge, I find that when I head out with my Zealots at ~5:50, I arrive at their base just barely in time to see any 2 hatch all-ins that I have to cannon up heavily for. Can the non-upgraded Zealots really get in to the Zerg base in time to determine whether this is happening? I feel like making 8 lings and intercepting the Zealot pair shortly before they enter Zerg's base would leave us in a pretty hard guessing game. If you don't see the flood of lings such as Xana is referring to until they're almost at your door, it's too late to make cannons, while getting cannons blindly is setting yourself behind.
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I'll definitely try it in lower leagues because i always want to be somewhat lightly aggressive against zerg early to prevent overdroning. This build may sacrifice some early economy but relatively safe and gives some early zealot to at deny the third.
Thanks,
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I use another variant of a 1 gate FE, without forge/cannons (yey!):
- 9 pylon ( near main nexus )
- 13 gate ( near main nexus )
- 15 assimilator
This ensures that it can hold any early pool lings rush. Then:
- 16 pylon ( at natural )
- 18 cybercore ( at natural )
- 19 zealot
- 22 warp research
- 23 nexus
- 23 stalker
- 25 pylon
Then I follow up with 2 or 3 more gates, a sentry, and spend all my chronos into warp. My wall is complete around 4'45, and it easily holds the lings/roach all-ins or banneling busts. Warp finishes at 6' with 3 gates and I warp zealots to start pressuring Zerg's third.
The dangerous part is around 4' if Zerg sends waves of lings to my natural. In that case, I may have to wall in earlier than I want, and maybe drop a forge. I've already lost a couple of times due to lings run-by too.
Reading this thread, I wonder if it'd be possible to play even greedier depending on what was scouted. Hmm..
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On April 16 2012 18:28 Xana wrote:
Whenever I see this I stream slow lings. It may sound ludicrus but slow lings are able to easily deny the expansion from going down from a few zealots. On most maps you'll also be there before he can toss up cannons. When speed kicks in thats basically one gate FE denied, and the Zerg will be on two base w/ speedlings.
So far I've yet to experience my slow lings arriving too late, but I assume you can cut probe production if you somehow scout the lings popping out at my base.
The build is holdable vs. speedling openers. You basically can have 2 zealots when your initial 6 lings arrive and the ramp walled-off, and 3 zealots + a cannon when ling speed is done @ ~5mins if you opened gas -> pool. If you actually deny the expo protoss messed up pretty badly, and as Zerg you basically have to do a TON of damage to even the game up because if you stream lings you're sitting at something like 16 probes for a very long time.
On April 16 2012 21:24 Crow! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 15:48 Skyro wrote:On April 16 2012 14:10 Crow! wrote:Basic concept reminds me of my gateway forge +1 weapons pressure opening I wrote up a while ago. Here's a link to that one for anyone interested in comparison: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268044I still use the basic framework linked above, with a few tweaks here and there. I'll give this variant a try, but my experience generally leads me to be leery of using Zealots prior to +1 completing. Decent Zerg micro lets the Zealots be removed awfully cost effectively by the zerg without requiring him to tech at all. You can easily time +1 weapons and WG tech with a gate-nexus-core opening. If you think a +1 Zealot push is strong, one backed up with WG tech is like a gazillion times stronger. How fast you can get it depends on probes cuts, as if you don't cut probes this can be done @ 7:20, but if you do cut Probes this can be done even before 7:00 minutes. In my experience, by 7:00 Zerg can have Roaches without having cut any meaningful amount of their economy, and Roaches on creep in theory remove an infinite amount of slow Zealots. Without enough time to charge up force fields, sentry+stalkers wouldn't work especially well either. And speed is likely ready too, so you can no longer retreat (especially if you made any stalkers to deal with the Roaches). Basically, by that point it seems to me more like a sissy version of a 4 gate rather than like a noncommital pressure build. +1 weapons is strong so long as the Zerg hasn't yet developed enough tech to ignore it. I'm not convinced 7:00 or 7:20 is early enough for that to be true if they're diligent about scouting your front. I could be wrong, the lessened damage to the Zerg to have the tech ready by then could be equally balanced by the faster second base this grants compared to my build. Another thing that worries me is scouting. When playing Gateway+Forge, I find that when I head out with my Zealots at ~5:50, I arrive at their base just barely in time to see any 2 hatch all-ins that I have to cannon up heavily for. Can the non-upgraded Zealots really get in to the Zerg base in time to determine whether this is happening? I feel like making 8 lings and intercepting the Zealot pair shortly before they enter Zerg's base would leave us in a pretty hard guessing game. If you don't see the flood of lings such as Xana is referring to until they're almost at your door, it's too late to make cannons, while getting cannons blindly is setting yourself behind.
Normal 3-hatch no gas openings get roach warren like @ 7 mins and double extractors @ 6 mins. A 7:20 zealot push means a <6 min warren AND <6 min double extractors. It is not possible for a zerg player to have ling speed done AND roaches when the limiting resource from a 3-hatch no gas opening is, well, gas.
Your build hits earlier, but is 100% scoutable. That is a very, very big problem at higher levels, because a zerg player can make exactly the correct amount of lings to defend. This is not something they can do if you have warpgate tech done. What this means is that they essentially have to overmake units in case you do warp-in more zealots, and since it's impossible for ling speed to be done if they went 3-hatch no gas you can just simply run away, and not even waste any resources on zealots you don't need by not warping them in if they have a lot of roaches out already.
And in terms of econ, it's all relative. Your build right out of the gate starts at an econ disadvantage, but out of a FFE or gate-nexus build your econ is on par with a zerg until 7 mins as this is when the 3rd hatch/3 queen production really starts to kick in. By doing zealot pressure at this time to force units rather than drones it buys you time to stay on par with the zerg econ and grab a 3rd, gear up for a 2-base all-in, etc. Since your build already starts off at an econ advantage, it means you HAVE to do damage or you are behind. That makes your zealot pressure even MORE predictable than it is, even if it is already 100% scoutable. With a FFE or gate-nexus build you can fake pressure and just fall back and you're still in the game. I can fake pressure and fall back on a 6-7min third base for instance. And like I said if you really wanted to hit earlier than 7:20 out of a gate-nexus you could but you have to cut probes, but you're probably still ahead of your build econ-wise since your nexus up so fast!
In terms of scouting you can generally move out with 4 zealots @ 6 mins so there is no difference there. If he actually makes enough lings to kill off 4 zealots then that means he's probably going to baneling bust you because with proper micro 4 zealots, even unupgraded, can kill a truckton of slow lings. If he opened gas-> pool and has ling speed you probably shouldn't have been pushing out in the first place. IMO the main threat are baneling busts since they can hide their banelings and bust you when your zealots are out, but that is a problem with any kind of zealot pressure build. I think to be 100% safe vs. baneling busts at this time you need to forgo the zealot pressure if you scout no fast 3rd hatch and make a sentry after the 2nd zealot.
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I've been playing this a few times. I still can't quite believe that it's safe, and even hatch first can just shrug off the zealots with slowlings, and the cannon rush is too late to be effectivevs hatch first (too much creep, so can't build it in a corner). However, the zealots do get in for scouting (at lower levels at least) and I do get a notably faster economy going compared to my usual +1 zealot pressure build.
I'm worried that at higher levels the scouting the Zealots are supposed to provide can be completely denied by slowling micro, leaving this build too blind, so that it has to flip a coin and either prepare for an all-in or play greedily.
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On April 17 2012 05:38 Crow! wrote:
I've been playing this a few times. I still can't quite believe that it's safe, and even hatch first can just shrug off the zealots with slowlings, and the cannon rush is too late to be effectivevs hatch first (too much creep, so can't build it in a corner). However, the zealots do get in for scouting (at lower levels at least) and I do get a notably faster economy going compared to my usual +1 zealot pressure build.
I'm worried that at higher levels the scouting the Zealots are supposed to provide can be completely denied by slowling micro, leaving this build too blind, so that it has to flip a coin and either prepare for an all-in or play greedily.
I don't know what you mean by slowlings shrugging off zealots, as +1 zealots with micro destroy slowlings like nobody's business. Yes a gate expand cannot cannon rush a hatch first as you have no early forge, that is pretty obvious. The flipside of that equation is that you have higher initial income because you don't scout until 15/16, and if they hatch first you do not have to cut probes at all except for when you throw down your nexus at 17.
I also don't understand your point about zealot scouts not working at higher levels. Your +1 zealots are there to pressure, scouting is just a side benefit. There are a ton of pros who just use probes to scout. If you're scouting only with zealots then you should get out of that habit. Like I said above if you only scout with zealots he could baneling bust you when your zealots move out and you are pretty much dead. It's best to only go through with your zealot pressure if you scout the fast 3rd hatch. So what I'm trying to say is that this build is no more or less blind than any other protoss opening is since you should be relying on probes to scout.
In regards to the build being safe or not I can vouch for it (masters), Yuffie made a guide on it (high EU masters), and TitaN uses the opening a lot as well (who plays zergs like LZ and Nerchio in tourneys).
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I really like gate expands in PvZ. I usually go for Cecil's 1-gate 1-gas expand, but I'll have to check this build and Nony's 2gate build out.
For me at a plat / low diamond level I occasionally have trouble with roach/ling all-ins and early speedlings, but those losses are usually a result of poor scouting and build execution.
What I don't like about FFE is that usually the game revolves around the question of "Did the protoss manage to do decent pressure on the zerg third?, yes/no". With gate expands I feel you can keep the zerg a lot more honest, stopping them from droning for 7 straight minutes and forcing them into making units, contesting map control and being defensive etc. etc.
Thanks for the build. 
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something i have been playing around with is pushing out with the first 2 zealots to take control of the watch towers then back up until my 4th zealot is done and then go attack. taking the watch towers can put the zerg on edge and not know how many lings to make. as i push out i drop my forge and build a fifth zealot. i am still working on perfecting this build but the 4 chrono boosted zealots hits pretty early in the game and either gets a lot of ling kills if backed up aganst a wall or hatchery, or a hatch kill or it can be stopped by a 2 base roach rush., if roaches are spotted just retreat as on most maps the roaches are popping right as the zealots are getting to the zergs base and by dropping a few cannons you can hold it while you tech.
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I'm Fairly certain I saw white-ra do this on his stream a while back (like 3-4 weeks); looks fairly interesting to say the least.
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I'm trying to figure out what to do when the opponent just makes 8 lings off of a ~13 pool. I can't make a cannon without defending it with both Zealots (heck, just keeping the forge alive is hard), but that lets the lings into the main. And without a cannon up, I can't secure the Nexus either.
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On April 17 2012 22:30 Crow! wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what to do when the opponent just makes 8 lings off of a ~13 pool. I can't make a cannon without defending it with both Zealots (heck, just keeping the forge alive is hard), but that lets the lings into the main. And without a cannon up, I can't secure the Nexus either.
You should be walling off at the top of your main ramp and plug it with a probe to prevent lings from running in your main. If they attempt to run up your ramp they will lose a few lings as they have to come back down.
Also it helps to not completely wall-off from your ramp to your nexus when the initial lings get to your natural. This allows your zealots to play "ring-around-the-rosie" with the lings making it much harder for them to juke your zealots and snipe stuff (like your cannon). Once your cannon completes you can complete the wall-off. I generally get my cannon between my 2nd and 3rd zealot vs gasless 14 pool openings.
Outside of that I don't know what issue you are having. The micro is honestly not that hard. The micro is fairly similar to how you would defend a 6 pool if you opened with a pylon + gate right next to your nexus. Post up a replay if you are still having issues.
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On April 17 2012 22:30 Crow! wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what to do when the opponent just makes 8 lings off of a ~13 pool. I can't make a cannon without defending it with both Zealots (heck, just keeping the forge alive is hard), but that lets the lings into the main. And without a cannon up, I can't secure the Nexus either.
Hi,
This is exactly why I have suggested the 1 gate 1 pylon low ground wall off. It allows you to keep your ramp walled and free the zealots to defend forge, pylon. Without this, a 13 pool just rallying slow lings can prevent the expansion.
I will update the guide with wall sim city for the new maps soon. I know my walls are not perfected yet, so I am eager for stronger players to toy with the concept.
The main disadvantages to the low ground wall are:
1. doesn't look like normal gateway build. this gives zerg easy scouting that you are expanding, not 4 gating/ 1 base stargate, etc.
2. awkward building placement on some maps (entombed) and inefficient compared to FFE building placement on others (shakuras)
3. Pretty much all your structures are on the low ground, so if you lose the front to roaches, you are finished. So far in my experience you can hold vs roach aggression, as the wall finishes quite early, and you have space for lots of cannons.
More details as I update guide with new maps.
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Ok I was wrong I've found that if a zerg knows you are scouting on 15 they can be sneaky with a 6 pool and make their lings go an alternate path or simply just hide their lings as your probe runs past. If you don't spot their lings on the way to your base with your 15 scout they can focus your pylon and it is pretty much gg. If you scout on 12/13 you can scout early pools in their base and not have to rely on seeing their lings moving across the map.
Also the crucial time is @ 5 mins for you to check if they went fast 3 hatch or not. I'm not sure what's optimal way to be safe if you scout no fast 3rd. You can skip 3rd zealot and get 2 cannons up. This is very safe and best used if you just wall-off the ramp to your nexus, as a 2nd cannon protecting your mineral line is pretty useful. If you do have a complete wall-off (like on daybreak) then I believe 1 cannon is enough and you can get that 3rd zealot. Either way though I do believe it is prudent to get a sentry as the 4th unit out of your initial gateway, grab your 2nd gas, and chrono your WG as well as throw down 2 more gates. This allows you to get a warp-in of stalkers if they do a roach-ling all-in which you should be able to hold easily.
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On April 30 2012 06:29 Skyro wrote:
Ok I was wrong I've found that if a zerg knows you are scouting on 15 they can be sneaky with a 6 pool and make their lings go an alternate path or simply just hide their lings as your probe runs past. If you don't spot their lings on the way to your base with your 15 scout they can focus your pylon and it is pretty much gg. If you scout on 12/13 you can scout early pools in their base and not have to rely on seeing their lings moving across the map.
Also the crucial time is @ 5 mins for you to check if they went fast 3 hatch or not. I'm not sure what's optimal way to be safe if you scout no fast 3rd. You can skip 3rd zealot and get 2 cannons up. This is very safe and best used if you just wall-off the ramp to your nexus, as a 2nd cannon protecting your mineral line is pretty useful. If you do have a complete wall-off (like on daybreak) then I believe 1 cannon is enough and you can get that 3rd zealot. Either way though I do believe it is prudent to get a sentry as the 4th unit out of your initial gateway, grab your 2nd gas, and chrono your WG as well as throw down 2 more gates. This allows you to get a warp-in of stalkers if they do a roach-ling all-in which you should be able to hold easily.
Hey skyro
I've taken to building gate and two pylons all low ground, which seems to held vs 6 pool blind if you get zealot before nexus. 2 pylons and tight ramp wall makes it hard for lings to do any damage. The only problem is you can't skip zealot as I like to do vs hatch first. So basically you can get an eco boost from delaying scout, or from skipping zealot, but not both.
BTW what is the standard sin city for metropolis? I haven't settled whether it's better to wall at rocks or tight with nexus. O guess it isn't on the pool right now anyway, but its the one I don't have set yet
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On April 30 2012 07:02 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 06:29 Skyro wrote:
Ok I was wrong I've found that if a zerg knows you are scouting on 15 they can be sneaky with a 6 pool and make their lings go an alternate path or simply just hide their lings as your probe runs past. If you don't spot their lings on the way to your base with your 15 scout they can focus your pylon and it is pretty much gg. If you scout on 12/13 you can scout early pools in their base and not have to rely on seeing their lings moving across the map.
Also the crucial time is @ 5 mins for you to check if they went fast 3 hatch or not. I'm not sure what's optimal way to be safe if you scout no fast 3rd. You can skip 3rd zealot and get 2 cannons up. This is very safe and best used if you just wall-off the ramp to your nexus, as a 2nd cannon protecting your mineral line is pretty useful. If you do have a complete wall-off (like on daybreak) then I believe 1 cannon is enough and you can get that 3rd zealot. Either way though I do believe it is prudent to get a sentry as the 4th unit out of your initial gateway, grab your 2nd gas, and chrono your WG as well as throw down 2 more gates. This allows you to get a warp-in of stalkers if they do a roach-ling all-in which you should be able to hold easily. Hey skyro I've taken to building gate and two pylons all low ground, which seems to held vs 6 pool blind if you get zealot before nexus. 2 pylons and tight ramp wall makes it hard for lings to do any damage. The only problem is you can't skip zealot as I like to do vs hatch first. So basically you can get an eco boost from delaying scout, or from skipping zealot, but not both. BTW what is the standard sin city for metropolis? I haven't settled whether it's better to wall at rocks or tight with nexus. O guess it isn't on the pool right now anyway, but its the one I don't have set yet
I always skip the first zealot unless I scout the early pool. With a 12/13 scout on a 2-player map you will see lings from a 6 pool leaving their base. This is right around the time you throw down your 2nd pylon, but before your nexus. The travel time from their base to yours should allow you to chrono out a zealot in time to defend. You're also going to want to pull a small batch of probes to defend as well, and fortify your wall-off with your 2nd pylon.
I think if the map allows to wall-off completely, rather than just from the ramp to your nexus, you should wall-off completely. It's just safer that way. So on maps like metropolis and daybreak where I can wall-off completely I make my initial pylon and gate on the low ground. If I'm just walling off from my ramp to my nexus I usually do not need the initial gateway and can just use the forge and core, so on those maps I make my initial pylon and gate on the high ground. The advantage of making it on the high ground is it is safer vs early pools and may also fool the zerg into thinking you are 3-gate sentry expanding or something.
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Half of the people on EU at a ~high master level play 1 gate nexus nowadays, good OP for the people unawares, but please don't act like you, yuffie, and adonminus are the first to do it.
Btw, on your build order, in my experience you can very often delay your zealot until after the nexus (depends on pool of course) and a cyber or forge (that depends on how fast you want a cannon).
If he goes 15 hatch you can get gas and cyber really fast, and if he doesn't get gas and you scout the 3rd and he doesn't get more lings, you can skip the cannon and go for a really fast 4 gate +1 (1 zealot ofc).
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I would like to thank you for that guide and I hope I will see this buid more and more in ladder.
Do you know why I go gaz first vs P ? To free win vs any variations of this buid, then my zvp ratio is not so low (master eu).
Yesterday I felt crazy and went gazless, the protoss was doing that and I have won with some slow lings... ( he was 600+ or something)
Don't copy build from pro in tournament, they have specific buid for opponent and map... Ok JYP did that vs Ret on dual sight but you know what ? Ret doesn't drone scout and makes only one pair of ling !
I really don't understand why people try to do this build, imo it is not viable...
Just go ffe and free win, oh, you may be bored of that.
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@BriTadeb: We're looking for alternatives to FFE because it often feels like it just sets us up to helplessly lose.
Failing to drone scout is alarmingly common these days. With my Gateway Forge +1 weapons rush, which I expect to just force the opponent to make enough defenses that we wind up economically even, I'm finding that Zergs just assume I'm doing FFE and wind up dying to basic Zealot pressure.
Any variation to the norm that forces the Zerg to start scouting again is a good thing - Zerg not having to scout while we have to 9 scout or earlier is another part of how going FFE sets you up to fall so far behind the Zerg. I'm still trying to figure out how much pressure I can actually do in this variation, though - if it's not enough, it might not matter whether they scout that it's different from FFE.
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Quillian,
I think this thread is perfect to throw in another variant, Attero's. You can see it in action in this vod:
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2attero/b/316643322 ( first game, starts around 4 minutes ).
He builds everything on the low ground to wall asap in case of a rush.
The main difference with the other variants is his use of zealots. He builds a zealot first before dropping the nexus ( around 3'20 ), and continuously chronoes zealots from there on. He delays his forge and cybercore a surprising amount of time ( but not too much either ), usually around 4'30.
He pressures the Zerg with his first two zealots, but will keep producing/chronoing zealots until he has 4-5 of them. Then he'll go back pressure Zerg's third. Most of the time, if Zerg took a very fast third, he won't have enough lings to hold it.
If for some reason Zerg took a fast third and made a shitton of zerglings to hold the early zealots rush, he'll transition into an 8 gates push around the 9' mark, which will be very hard for Zerg to hold since his eco has been so hurt.
From my tests of this build, the eco is similar to a forge-first ( just slightly behind a nexus first ) but the early pressure / delayed third of Zerg is invaluable..
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On May 01 2012 00:37 Nyast wrote:Quillian, I think this thread is perfect to throw in another variant, Attero's. You can see it in action in this vod: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2attero/b/316643322 ( first game, starts around 4 minutes ). He builds everything on the low ground to wall asap in case of a rush. The main difference with the other variants is his use of zealots. He builds a zealot first before dropping the nexus ( around 3'20 ), and continuously chronoes zealots from there on. He delays his forge and cybercore a surprising amount of time ( but not too much either ), usually around 4'30. He pressures the Zerg with his first two zealots, but will keep producing/chronoing zealots until he has 4-5 of them. Then he'll go back pressure Zerg's third. Most of the time, if Zerg took a very fast third, he won't have enough lings to hold it. If for some reason Zerg took a fast third and made a shitton of zerglings to hold the early zealots rush, he'll transition into an 8 gates push around the 9' mark, which will be very hard for Zerg to hold since his eco has been so hurt. From my tests of this build, the eco is similar to a forge-first ( just slightly behind a nexus first ) but the early pressure / delayed third of Zerg is invaluable..
Interesting. So Attero 9 Pylon scouts for the 6 pool which allows him to throw his initial gate down as part of his wall-off at his natural. This seems to only be safe on 2P maps though, otherwise if you don't scout their location correctly on the first try then you have to throw down a forge instead of gate to be 100% safe.
I'm not so sure about early zealot harass though. What if the zerg player splits his lings and sends some to protoss' third? He has no wall-off or units to defend. And is it even worth delaying your tech? Delaying tech means you're not going to hit any +1 WG timing. There certainly are merits to making a zealot before nexus though.
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I still don't get why you would prefer this style over FFE on the majority of the maps.
Basically you're trading some of economy for a slightly faster tech and some zealot pressure. I just don't like the overall payoff for it
I was very skeptical of this build myself as I was a huge fan of FFE; however, after stephano style roaches, I began experimenting with different builds because it seemed to me that zergs had figured out the FFE. I've had enormous success with this build, and old school 1 gate cyber into a slower expands. Your honestly not giving up much economy because your going to force the zerg to respond and keep him from droneing. If the zerg tries to take a fast 3rd vs this type of build, it's much easier to punish them. ]
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On May 01 2012 00:37 Nyast wrote:Quillian, I think this thread is perfect to throw in another variant, Attero's. You can see it in action in this vod: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2attero/b/316643322 ( first game, starts around 4 minutes ). He builds everything on the low ground to wall asap in case of a rush. The main difference with the other variants is his use of zealots. He builds a zealot first before dropping the nexus ( around 3'20 ), and continuously chronoes zealots from there on. He delays his forge and cybercore a surprising amount of time ( but not too much either ), usually around 4'30. He pressures the Zerg with his first two zealots, but will keep producing/chronoing zealots until he has 4-5 of them. Then he'll go back pressure Zerg's third. Most of the time, if Zerg took a very fast third, he won't have enough lings to hold it. If for some reason Zerg took a fast third and made a shitton of zerglings to hold the early zealots rush, he'll transition into an 8 gates push around the 9' mark, which will be very hard for Zerg to hold since his eco has been so hurt. From my tests of this build, the eco is similar to a forge-first ( just slightly behind a nexus first ) but the early pressure / delayed third of Zerg is invaluable..
Hi Nyast!
Interesting, thanks for the link!
After watching it, I feel like it isn't as secure or economic as what I've been doing. 9 scout loses some minerals, and the very loose low ground sim city with the first 2 pylons and gateway would be very vulnerable to a 13 pool slow ling attack.
I feel like if the zerg had ignored the pylon at his natural and just run by the incomplete wall with his fist lings it would have been ugly.
If you build you pylon and gateway at the bottom of your ramp and scout on 13, you will be secure from ling cheese and see his pool in time to cancel the zealot and go nexus first, or chrono additional zealots to defend against lings.
The early zealot pressure is interesting. Not something I would try every game, but maybe good to have in your pocket on some maps.
note: there is another pvz with the same build at 1:00:00 where he gets a gg just from chrono'd zealots... crazy.
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On May 01 2012 01:38 Skyro wrote:
I'm not so sure about early zealot harass though. What if the zerg player splits his lings and sends some to protoss' third? He has no wall-off or units to defend. And is it even worth delaying your tech? Delaying tech means you're not going to hit any +1 WG timing. There certainly are merits to making a zealot before nexus though.
If the Zerg player splits his lings and sends some to protoss's third it's no problem, simply because with this build you're continuously producing chronoed zealots, so you'll always have a zealot nearing completion at your natural. And of course, if with your first zealots you see that he's going crazy with zerglings, nothing prevents you from walling completely and dropping a quicker forge.
Tech isn't delayed as much as you'd think compared to FFE, the cybercore is like 15s late compared to FFE so it's not really a game breaker. The real "problem" IMO is the second gas, cause you won't have the eco to chrono probes, zealots AND get an early 2nd gas like in FFE. That's a trade-off.
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Most people forget that a 1 gate FE puts the nexus down roughly around the same time as a FFE, but the extra zealots force a BUNCH of lings from the zerg early on. This really hurts the zergs econ substantially as the zerg will often be behind workers the entire game if you continue to add follow up pressures.
Has anyone tried a +1 4-gate followup with a 7-gate immortal-sentry allin afterwards?
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