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On April 10 2012 21:18 Belial88 wrote:
^ No, it's the other way around.
Macro well, strategy will follow. There isn't much strategy to really understand, the game is pretty straightforward. At the lower levels, strategy doesn't exist because of the lack of macro. You don't have ZvP where toss goes FFE, has to scout if zerg takes third, then toss does sentry/zealot wg pressure, which zerg must get roaches and creep for, and then zerg gets map control to deny third, then toss gets third, then zerg gets mutas while toss has stronger army, and then zerg must keep toss in his base while he gets broodlords before the push. You will *never* see a game go like that in diamond. But you'll always see it in masters+. You may see mutas, or mass roach, or warp gate timing, but you won't see all the facets of a 'normal' PvZ in a lower league game.
Without proper macro on both sides, strategy doesn't exist. Macro is the basics of this game. So the problem, is that Diamond players aren't really considered playing the game. They don't have the basics down. So any 'strategy' ends up viable if you macro better, and the game isn't played at a 'competent' level where things really make sense.
There is no strategy in the lower leagues. You may think it is, but it's not. All you have in the lower leagues is basics of how the game may flow, like stalker/colossi, but that's more unit composition, not strategy. Strategy is ALL about timings, and the lower levels don't have the macro to make such timings exist.
Lol, wow. Are you Diamond? I am pretty sure you aren't (you're better, duh). Just because that stuff didn't happen when you were in Diamond doesn't mean that it doesn't happen now. I was Plat in season 6 (am easily Diamond), and that does happen. Lol, just lol. I have played multiple games where I go 3 hatch before gas against FFE, respond to WG pressure, mass roaches to delay/deny third while getting some tech (not always Broods). This was in Plat. Granted, it was during the ladder lock, and I was playing all Diamond players (but it was still just Diamond players).
I agree that macro is the most important, and it's pretty obvious that you can't execute a build or a 'standard' strategy if you don't have the macro to keep it clean, but seriously, don't make such emphatic statements about leagues you aren't in. Sure, maybe you are right, in which case I should be in masters, and some of my opponents in these games should also be in masters.
- - - - -
Also, all this talk about Destiny massing queens against people... Wasn't this forever ago? Every player, from Bronze to GM is better now than they were before. I would bet anything that a 'mid/high' Gold player from S6 would crush any Plat player from S1-2. So who cares about massing queens and getting to Plat or whatever back when Plat was even more garbage than it is now? It's 100% unsurprising that a pro can beat people of supremely low skill massing something like queens. I think it just shows how idiotic the opposing player was. Sure, his macro may have sucked, and that contributed to him losing, but seriously, he also had to have little to no brain to lose to that.
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Strategy is important in all leagues (you can't be a complete moron), but the focus in the lower leagues should be more on trying to macro to the best of your ability, because just making a lot of *stuff* (pylons and probes and attacking units) can just eventually lead to rolling your opponents (usually regardless of how well you planned out your unit composition and strategy).
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You need a strategy that is half decent. As long as it isn't something like mass corrupter, its fine. Hellion banshee vs Protoss? No problem at lower level you should win regardless of its weaknesses
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I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues.
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On April 14 2012 00:30 lwwkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 21:18 Belial88 wrote:
^ No, it's the other way around.
Macro well, strategy will follow. There isn't much strategy to really understand, the game is pretty straightforward. At the lower levels, strategy doesn't exist because of the lack of macro. You don't have ZvP where toss goes FFE, has to scout if zerg takes third, then toss does sentry/zealot wg pressure, which zerg must get roaches and creep for, and then zerg gets map control to deny third, then toss gets third, then zerg gets mutas while toss has stronger army, and then zerg must keep toss in his base while he gets broodlords before the push. You will *never* see a game go like that in diamond. But you'll always see it in masters+. You may see mutas, or mass roach, or warp gate timing, but you won't see all the facets of a 'normal' PvZ in a lower league game.
Without proper macro on both sides, strategy doesn't exist. Macro is the basics of this game. So the problem, is that Diamond players aren't really considered playing the game. They don't have the basics down. So any 'strategy' ends up viable if you macro better, and the game isn't played at a 'competent' level where things really make sense.
There is no strategy in the lower leagues. You may think it is, but it's not. All you have in the lower leagues is basics of how the game may flow, like stalker/colossi, but that's more unit composition, not strategy. Strategy is ALL about timings, and the lower levels don't have the macro to make such timings exist. Lol, wow. Are you Diamond? I am pretty sure you aren't (you're better, duh). Just because that stuff didn't happen when you were in Diamond doesn't mean that it doesn't happen now. I was Plat in season 6 (am easily Diamond), and that does happen. Lol, just lol. I have played multiple games where I go 3 hatch before gas against FFE, respond to WG pressure, mass roaches to delay/deny third while getting some tech (not always Broods). This was in Plat. Granted, it was during the ladder lock, and I was playing all Diamond players (but it was still just Diamond players). I agree that macro is the most important, and it's pretty obvious that you can't execute a build or a 'standard' strategy if you don't have the macro to keep it clean, but seriously, don't make such emphatic statements about leagues you aren't in. Sure, maybe you are right, in which case I should be in masters, and some of my opponents in these games should also be in masters. - - - - - Also, all this talk about Destiny massing queens against people... Wasn't this forever ago? Every player, from Bronze to GM is better now than they were before. I would bet anything that a 'mid/high' Gold player from S6 would crush any Plat player from S1-2. So who cares about massing queens and getting to Plat or whatever back when Plat was even more garbage than it is now? It's 100% unsurprising that a pro can beat people of supremely low skill massing something like queens. I think it just shows how idiotic the opposing player was. Sure, his macro may have sucked, and that contributed to him losing, but seriously, he also had to have little to no brain to lose to that.
This, people seem to forget that skill level has risen in the past year(s). Bronze might still be terrible, but silver-plat has a totally different skill level, I guess it's a steeper curve which levels out around diamond/master, there's such a great skill gap between silver-plat, and people in gold now are way better then the plats(or sometimes even diamonds) from a year ago, knowing unit counters, compo's and build orders are first things that pop my mind.
Macro is still most important, but it isn't that true to just macro properly = win. Well I guess untill high gold it still does matter.
NOTE: I was in diamond S1-2, just purely on macro and knowing basic build orders. If I would main zerg instead of Random again, I guess I would be in plat at the most right now.
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of course you need a strategy.
The point is your idea of a strategy would be a joke to someone in diamond or above. In fact your strategy probably doesn;t go further than pylons + probes + aim for this unit comp ... and attack at this time.
Its still a strategy. The point is that your strategy is goign to be more about getting fundamentals right wheras you would hope a lot of what you call strategy is just everyday business for them.
Maybe if you scout at x tiem and see this then you know hes going something that will kill you unless you change what you are doing ... but you only get that from *having* a strategy in the fist place that you are repeating to build on.
The problems with timings is that as you get better they do change and come sooner and harder.
Actually the details of what you do with the medivac is part of tactics.
Strategy is about large scale framework ideas, tactics are the small details of how you make a strategy work in given situations. Most peoples strategy is to either do an attack at x with y units or to macro and defend. But the details of abusing as sentry or blink stalkers are tactics.
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On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues.
That has nothing to do with strategy (or macro really), unless the 120 army force was all air units or something. That was a horrendous, god awful, game losing engagement on your part, and you were likely missing some ups (roach speed, burrow, +1/+1, etc). You need MC-like control to even stand a chance when you are 80 supply down. As long as you have at least roach speed and you aren't charging up ramps into cannon lines and immortals while getting your forces cut in half, repeatedly, you can't lose that.
Also, if you are honestly maxing that early, you won't be in Silver for long, at all (if you can stay consistent). I'd be pretty shocked if a crappy platinum player could get to 200 supply with the proper upgrades within 13 minutes, even if their opener was never pressured.
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On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues.
So what if you lose a fight of roaches vs a protoss army at his natural? If you're macroing, you'll stay maxed the whole engagement while his army is constantly shrinking, not because you're being cost-efficient, but because you're building roaches constantly while he needs to wait for warp-ins etc.
Bad engagements don't matter if you have good macro compared to someone with bad macro, unless it's a gameending engagement outside of your base.
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On April 14 2012 01:29 lwwkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues. That has nothing to do with strategy (or macro really), unless the 120 army force was all air units or something. That was a horrendous, god awful, game losing engagement on your part, and you were likely missing some ups (roach speed, burrow, +1/+1, etc). You need MC-like control to even stand a chance when you are 80 supply down. As long as you have at least roach speed and you aren't charging up ramps into cannon lines and immortals while getting your forces cut in half, repeatedly, you can't lose that. Also, if you are honestly maxing that early, you won't be in Silver for long, at all (if you can stay consistent). I'd be pretty shocked if a crappy platinum player could get to 200 supply with the proper upgrades within 13 minutes, even if their opener was never pressured.
I won that game later with other units.
I had already speed roaches and +1 armor . Without his phoenix opener (killed ~5 overlord), I would have 200/200 a bit earlier. I had trouble to win this situation because he had already 4 collosus and 3 immortals at his natural.
@toberoth
Zerg 200/200 should able to beat 120 protoss without reinforcement, or is it wrong?
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On April 14 2012 01:53 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 01:29 lwwkicker wrote:On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues. That has nothing to do with strategy (or macro really), unless the 120 army force was all air units or something. That was a horrendous, god awful, game losing engagement on your part, and you were likely missing some ups (roach speed, burrow, +1/+1, etc). You need MC-like control to even stand a chance when you are 80 supply down. As long as you have at least roach speed and you aren't charging up ramps into cannon lines and immortals while getting your forces cut in half, repeatedly, you can't lose that. Also, if you are honestly maxing that early, you won't be in Silver for long, at all (if you can stay consistent). I'd be pretty shocked if a crappy platinum player could get to 200 supply with the proper upgrades within 13 minutes, even if their opener was never pressured. I won that game later with other units. I had already speed roaches and +1 armor . Without his phoenix opener (killed ~5 overlord), I would have 200/200 a bit earlier. I had trouble to win this situation because he had already 4 collosus and 3 immortals at his natural.
This makes no sense... at all... lol. How is it that he has that many robo units on two bases and he opened stargate AND he was trying to expand to a third? His army can't hold, not even close. There is no way he will have any amount of sentries (or anything else) to soak/mitigate the damage. You just focus fire down the tech and win right then and there. Colossus are more or less glass cannons, and 3 immortals is a joke if its not backed up by sentries and some stalkers.
I need a replay to wrap my head around this.
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You definatley don't need strategy, but just macro isn't enough. I have a diamond terran friend who can max by 14 minutes against any race, and when he was struggling in the lower leagues, he would be maxed but right click his army past the other guy's army which was 50+ supply behind, and just lose all his stuff. I think a better word is mechanics, as it is not super nitty gritty stuff (marine splits, blink micro, burrowing banelings), but instead just your ability to do what you want to do. I'm a mid-high master terran and zerg, and when I first offraced as toss, I was low masters, because I had the mechanics from playing other races. I didn't know what I was doing. For example, I knew to forge expand against zerg, but from there i just added gates and a robo and took a third at random timings no matter what my opponent did, and just attacked when I felt like I was at an advantageous position.
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Probably u know nothing about some weird silver strategies :D
He built no one Stalker. In addition he had mass zealots and ~2 sentries. No 3rd.
The biggest mistake was that i fought at his ramp.
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strategy is 0% important at lower levels. on my bronze account, i was doing compositions determined by dice rolls. i would win with shit like sentry immortal phoenix, cause people don't expand or make stuff.
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On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues.
I really need to see a replay to believe this. Macro better is the best answer in the lower leagues. Trying to give a low level player a great strategy is wrong because he might have a very hard time to pull it off.
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On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues.
The hardest thing to believe about this post is that you managed to max out by 13mins and you claim to be in silver.
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On April 14 2012 03:48 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues. The hardest thing to believe about this post is that you managed to max out by 13mins and you claim to be in silver.
He prob meant 23 mins lol
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On April 14 2012 03:57 PeanutsNJam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:48 Forbidden17 wrote:On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues. The hardest thing to believe about this post is that you managed to max out by 13mins and you claim to be in silver. He prob meant 23 mins lol
Its posts like this that make it hard to take macrobots seriously. Maxing out with roaches by 13 minutes is NOT THAT HARD. HURR SILVER LEAGUE, MUST HAVE TAKEN 23 MINUTES.
http://drop.sc/159007
>But your macro was really bad, look at that unused gas geyser!
I know. And I still maxed on roaches in under 13 minutes. That's why your statement is massively wrong.
>But that was just medium AI Zerg, they can't apply proper pressure.
I know, but a silver Toss FFE won't apply much pressure either. Less, in fact, to the point where I could have taken the 3rd faster and skipped the early roaches.
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Monkeyballs25 <3
Thank you.
Your own 2 questions und answer are perfect for people (who want help me) were never in silver 
My opponent applied lesser pressure at early (@7min) than AI hard.
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On April 14 2012 04:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:57 PeanutsNJam wrote:On April 14 2012 03:48 Forbidden17 wrote:On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues. The hardest thing to believe about this post is that you managed to max out by 13mins and you claim to be in silver. He prob meant 23 mins lol Its posts like this that make it hard to take macrobots seriously. Maxing out with roaches by 13 minutes is NOT THAT HARD. HURR SILVER LEAGUE, MUST HAVE TAKEN 23 MINUTES. http://drop.sc/159007>But your macro was really bad, look at that unused gas geyser! I know. And I still maxed on roaches in under 13 minutes. That's why your statement is massively wrong. >But that was just medium AI Zerg, they can't apply proper pressure. I know, but a silver Toss FFE won't apply much pressure either. Less, in fact, to the point where I could have taken the 3rd faster and skipped the early roaches.
That's still like a minute if not a minute and a half later than you should be maxing...>_>
Just macro better and you'll win most of your games in silver, even if you still lose to weird unit compositions or cheese.
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On April 14 2012 04:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:57 PeanutsNJam wrote:On April 14 2012 03:48 Forbidden17 wrote:On April 14 2012 01:12 Dingodile wrote:
I am in Silver, my experinece says strategies are very important on low leagues. I lost a fight with 200/200 pure roaches against 120 supply protoss at his natural at 13min yesterday.
"macro better" seems not the best answer in low leagues. The hardest thing to believe about this post is that you managed to max out by 13mins and you claim to be in silver. He prob meant 23 mins lol Its posts like this that make it hard to take macrobots seriously. Maxing out with roaches by 13 minutes is NOT THAT HARD. HURR SILVER LEAGUE, MUST HAVE TAKEN 23 MINUTES. http://drop.sc/159007>But your macro was really bad, look at that unused gas geyser! I know. And I still maxed on roaches in under 13 minutes. That's why your statement is massively wrong. >But that was just medium AI Zerg, they can't apply proper pressure. I know, but a silver Toss FFE won't apply much pressure either. Less, in fact, to the point where I could have taken the 3rd faster and skipped the early roaches.
I watched that replay.
You just made zero units and mass droned -.-' when someone says work on your macro it doesn't mean blindly make drones and have one roach with zero zerglings at the 5:45min mark. You even skipped the essential scouting lings.
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EPT
