EPT[D] How important is Strategy in lower leagues? - Page 10
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Lazzi
Switzerland1923 Posts
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Sylvanium
Canada32 Posts
On April 14 2012 17:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ No that's not the point. Maxing out in 13 minutes as zerg, with roaches, isn't impressive. You might as well say "see im silver and i can hit 200/200 supply after 40 minutes". There's nothing that's really 'impressive', since it's just considered competent macro, but it's extremely unlikely that a bronze-plat can hit 70+ supply against computer at the 8 minute mark. Even if they could, they could just never, ever do it in a real game. The other guy just didn't realize how easy it is to max in 13 minutes. Charon posted a replay a few pages back saying he could, and 'proving' that low level can macro well in a vacuum. I watched the replay, and it was actually counter-proof of his argument, showing that a gold CANT macro well ina vacuum - he had tons of supply blocks, early overlords, making 5+ overlords at once (i believe after 18 supply, he was either blocked or made way more overlords than his production could justify EVERY time). But his point is basically right - that even in a vacuum, a low level player can't macro well. A better example than 13 minute max, is 8 minute 70+ (which i never hit in real games on ladder, and im mid-masters). I doubt a plat could ever do that in a vacuum, but even if he could, he would never do that in a real game, never come close to it. People who are below diamond, just cannot macro 'competently' (as in not macro well, but just avoid major issues like supply blocks, and banking gas/minerals over 300) in the first 10 minutes. I mean, I don't even think mid-masters can do that in an actual game (but probably in a vacuum). If you are below masters, you have a long way to go before strategy. You have to macro 'competently'. As long as you avoid supply blocks, not make more overlords than your production can justify (ie no 2 overlords at once at 20 supply), and not bank over 300 minerals/gas in the first 10 minutes, you should be able to get to low masters fairly easily, with basic game knowledge (derp, hellions beat lings, derp, don't run into sieged tanks, derp, dont fly mutas into marines on accident) and strategy/scouting (opponent is still on 1 base, he's all-inning, my opponent is on 2 base continue as normal, my opponent took 4 gas, make spores). If you can actually macro well, as in make overlords on time, don't bank more than 100 minerals, never be late on injects, you should be able to get very, very well into masters, if not high masters, along with some basic game understanding that you DEFINITELY will have accrued from having practiced your macro and just watching enough games (hey mutas, good unit). A real game where you hit 70+ supply by 8 minute, and have the normal stuff (lair or speed started, evo chamber unless you see no gas at toss base or get a really good scout off and know you don't need it, roach warren, 3 queens). No play like you are ignoring your opponent to 'prove' something obviously, just a natural game where you deal with toss sending out a zealot as scout/pressure (if he doesn't do that...), and you have to figure out what he's doing and scout, et c. I mean, I'm mid-masters, and I don't think I ever hit that. So if you can pull off a game where you scout, deal with that pressure, and hit 70+ and respond appropriately to what's going on and have the right stuff and at least don't lose to something ridiculous like never making units or whatever, I'd say you are probably way past platinum, at the very least... like masters. I'm not saying your points are wrong. However being mid-masters there are a great number of things you take for granted, unit counters and such. For lower leagues, the lower you go the more important and illusive those things you take for granted are. Much of those things can be classified under Strategy, a good number can also be classified has simply having good Multi-tasking skills. Please do not mix MACRO, which you incidentally define fairly well, with all the other things that you take for granted. Knowing how to scout, how to process that information and how to use it is at the very least Tactics, more likely that is Strategy, since you had planned probably since the before the game ever started to scout at that particular time in order to learn or try to learn what your opponent is trying to accomplish. Please re-evaluate what things you take for granted when you are giving advise to a lower league player, try to remember what you knew and what you did not know when you were there but do not insult us with "Just improve your Macro and you will win, guaranteed!" Your own talking points include Multitasking skills and Strategy. Good Day! | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:22 Charon1979 wrote: If you refer to my replay at least stay to the facts. There was no supplyblock till 86 and the 5 OL occured after the 9 min mark. Most of your critics was idle larvae and my overlordtiming being off. So if you want to make a point feel free but dont bend "evidence" so it suits your argument. Even after your analysis of my replay I watched pro replays and guess what: The same things happen to them all the time. Idle Larvae while having 400 minerals, to many overlords at certain points, even supplyblocks. While I see the mistakes i made, you guys still keep saying "You just need GM level macro and you can play what you want till plat!" Guess what: Ppl in Bronze dont have GM level macro, they probably will never have. So they need to play something that makes at least a tiny bit of sense. But thanks to your advise I really got better, having more army, more income and more upgrades earlier. Still i lose to ppl with less army, less income and less upgrades (3/3 Ling/Infestor/Ultra against 2/1 Marine/Tank/Medivac, 2 Base vs 4 Base 80 Workers to 46) I didnt lose because my macro was so much worse than his. I lost because of overlord placement, losing units stupidly and engaging in unvavorable positions. I didn't say anything about your macro not being good before the 9 minute mark. And secondly, actually yea, your macro was atrocious before the 9 minute mark. Your early gas, not mining gas for a long time, late lair due to this, not making queens on time, completely late injects right off the bat, and not maynarding workers at all. If you reread the post, you will see I was quite harsh about your play in the first 9 minutes. There is no bending going on, anyone can watch the replay and see there are obvious mistakes in the first 9 minutes. Pro players macro much better. Sometimes there is a momentary supply block at 50 supply, when the overlord gets shot down, or they get supply blocked. But these things almost only ever happen when they are micro'ing or dealing with pressure, it doesn't happen before the 7 minute mark, and they make up for it with their micro. You cannot compare your games with a pros - they are dealing with opponents who macro well, and on top of it, are micro'ing in a way that a low level player could never pull off (at least, not without sac'cing their macro, which is something no one can really do unless you are pro, this is something that actually takes skill to pull off). Also, you being on 4 base ultra/infestor 3/3 against 2 base rine/tank sounds like horrible macro to me, really. It's also a bit of lack of understanding the game, but really, macro is the bigger problem. You should never lose to a terran stuck on 2 base short of some all-in. So, ignoring the problem that why in the world would you ever go hive tech against pure rine/tank, or why would you go hive tech against someone on just 2 bases (2 bases = all-in, if he doesnt take a third there is no way for them to play out the game without getting rolled by mass ling/bane/muta or ling/infestor), if you had macro'd better, you could of won. You would've taken your fourth, realized he isn't taking a third, and then mass units and just completely break him. What you say really makes no sense, and I get it, low level players don't have game understanding, and thus why they are bronze, or whatever. But I'd argue that macro was the bigger problem. You should have had ling/infestor out, saw he didn't take a third, and massed enough to have straight up killed him. You didn't macro well enough, so you couldn't break the terran on 2 base when your macro advantage should have materialized. You going into ultras or hive tech against someone on 2 bases is just bad decision making and flawed game knowledge, which I get is what you are arguing is more important, but really, you should be able to afford ultralisk den and all the hive tech in the world if the opponent is stuck on 2 base and still win. But lack of injects and macro and droning made it so you couldn't remax quick enough, and trade with the opponent well, even if you did make the mistake of going hive against 2 base terran. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
In My Opinion the "All lower leagues have horrible Macro" attitude is down right prejudice and should be discouraged at all times. There are multiple pillars to Starcraft2 and Macro is but one of them. Improving all aspects of your game is a much better approach then simply improving one aspect. On one day, practice your Macro, the next practice your strategy and on the third practice your Micro, one the fourth day, start over. Only through constance practice of all relevant aspects of the game will you continually improve and never hit a ceiling. You are wrong, and the OP is directed to 'deluded' people exactly like you. You think your macro is fine, or that other things are more important. But we are telling you they aren't, and that your macro is actually shit, and that you are only crippling your ability to improve because you refuse to acknowledge this. We aren't saying strategy isn't important. What we are saying is that, unless you are masters (or according to people who know how to play, ie high masters+), you play at such a low, low, low level that you need to focus on your macro, because at diamond and below, people just play so horribly that you can easily get to masters if you just focus on basic macro (avoid supply blocks, constantly make units) over anything else. And we aren't saying it's easy to do that either. It's hard to make workers, and make supply, when someone sends zealot pressure to you, or a drop, or you need to know if the opponent expanded or not and he has marines patrolling his base to deny scouts. But please, if you are a lower level player, provide a replay of a game you lost, 8+ minutes long, that you lose, that you think isn't because of macro. So far, only one person has taken this challenge. It wasn't a surprise to me that his macro was actually horrible, even in the first 9 minutes, and his replay was proof that a low level player actually can't macro. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On April 15 2012 06:18 Lazzi wrote: I think that in lower league the difference in mechanics can be so huge that it is the only things which matters. Mass gling with good macro and micro can be a poor controlled Colossus. completely wrong. If you play a good build in lower leagues, your multitasking/micro can be weak as hell, you will get a shitload of wins. Your macro should be well enough to build things at the right time, but that shouldn't be too hard. Strategy is often times the biggest weakness of lower league players, so there is plenty of room to capitalyze on that! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'm not saying your points are wrong. However being mid-masters there are a great number of things you take for granted, unit counters and such. For lower leagues, the lower you go the more important and illusive those things you take for granted are. Much of those things can be classified under Strategy, a good number can also be classified has simply having good Multi-tasking skills. Please do not mix MACRO, which you incidentally define fairly well, with all the other things that you take for granted. Knowing how to scout, how to process that information and how to use it is at the very least Tactics, more likely that is Strategy, since you had planned probably since the before the game ever started to scout at that particular time in order to learn or try to learn what your opponent is trying to accomplish. Please re-evaluate what things you take for granted when you are giving advise to a lower league player, try to remember what you knew and what you did not know when you were there but do not insult us with "Just improve your Macro and you will win, guaranteed!" Your own talking points include Multitasking skills and Strategy. Good Day! I was being a little broad, just to be politically correct and nice. Do the points in that post and you'll hit masters overnight. 'Macro competently', and you should hit masters in a few months, and be guaranteed at least diamond - as in never get supply blocked in first 10 minutes, and always be producing units (as in no gap more than 2 seconds of no worker production, or unit production if purposely cutting workers). Strategy is VERY important. A player in a lower league needs to pick a strategy that they can actually execute. If they're going for, I dunno, triple-pronged drop harass, then they're gonna lose every time because they can't actually do that. It's nothing about "counter this, counter that", it's about finding something that works and running with it. No way. A player in the lower leagues needs to macro well. Your example doesn't even make sense. So a low level player will lose every time because he's macro'ing well, and making 3 medivacs and marines/marauders with stim? Like, if that triple drop fails, they lose the game? That makes zero, zero sense. A low level player can do a build that gets 3 medivacs and bio with stim out, and if they macro well, it will take them very, very far. If they can pull off the drops without actually hurting themselves more by slipping on their macro, go for it, but the priority is macro. It's just low level players saying strategy is important over and over, and arguing against points that make no sense. I guarantee any masters terran can do a build that makes 3 medivacs and bio, and beat any bronze-platinum (probably diamond too), without having to do a single drop. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
I mean if you just go marine/tank vs zerg say, there's not a lot that can go wrong. You can basically ignore marine splitting if your macro is good and you have extra tanks and extra marines. As long as you don't simply a-move you should win, and even if you do a-move you still might  | ||
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FunkyFerdi
Germany29 Posts
For example is a silver league player able to execute a clean 5:45 4gate in PvP and wins a lot of games with it, although he has no clue how the game or the match-up works. His enemies might face a lot of certain strategies they have to deal with, and start using them on their own, just to not get crushed in every game. The thing is, a player of a higher caliber is able to adjust his playstyle to strategies thrown at him, while lower league players are most likely not able to do something against for example a 2-base colossus timing in PvT. This is often caused by the lack of general knowledge in the leagues, the players don´t know standard things, like going 3rax into factory into starport for Medivacs and Vikings against Protoss. So they start cheesing and allinning (what a gross word), because otherwise they can´t deal with it properly and just lose to the overthoguht strategies of other players. All in all strategie shouldn´t be as important as it is, the game should rely more on the understanding of it and not of strategies someone picked up during a stream or on teamliquid. | ||
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Gajarell
Germany29 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
What I'd like you to explain to me is why my experience runs counter to your advice. I play Zerg, and for months I tried to 'focus on macro' in silver league, without success. I don't just mean 'without winning more', I mean without winning more or succeeding in macroing much better or feeling like I was getting anywhere. One day, after watching the 'Intimate ZvX' Stoic VoDs, the penny dropped: my efforts were fruitless because my in-game decisions were terrible. I was attacking where and when I shouldn't and not attacking where and when I should. I wasn't transitioning at the right times or into the right tech. I wasn't droning at the right times or making units at the right times. I wasn't reading my opponent correctly. In short, I was constantly throwing away hard-won early advantages and letting my opponents back into the game. Despite berating myself endlessly between games for not macroing during fights, I was unable to tear my attention away because I always had that 'THIS IS IT, THE GAME IS BEING WON OR LOST HERE' feeling. Virtually overnight I made it into Gold, and I started to find it much easier to keep my mind on my macro. ... sorry, back in a minute my computer is freaking out. | ||
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EpicSauce
United States9 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I play Zerg, and for months I tried to 'focus on macro' in silver league, without success. I don't just mean 'without winning more', I mean without winning more or succeeding in macroing much better or feeling like I was getting anywhere. One day, after watching the 'Intimate ZvX' Stoic VoDs, the penny dropped: my efforts were fruitless because my in-game decisions were terrible. I was attacking where and when I shouldn't and not attacking where and when I should. I wasn't transitioning at the right times or into the right tech. I wasn't droning at the right times or making units at the right times. I wasn't reading my opponent correctly. I don't know exactly what you are saying. I can imagine it, but it doesn't make much sense. Like what, you would attack with your army 'when you shouldn't'? But that makes no sense. Like, why would you ever have more than 4-10 units before 60 supply? You shouldn't be making so many units. Thus, bad macro. You really have to give an example, because what you say doesn't make any sense. I guess you are saying you would all-in all the time when you had the macro lead, and throw away that lead, and then lose? You just have to provide replays. No low leaguer has yet done this besides charon. Please, provide your gold level replays that are so strategic. I guarantee we can pick it apart, and show you huge macro flaws that, if fixed, would get you diamond. Just basic stuff too. It's not strategy to not all-in when you have the macro lead over the opponent too, by the way. It's just... I don't know. But you didn't learn 'strategy' by realizing "Hey, I shouldn't mass units and a-move when i have the lead". Although I really can't imagine that if you didn't macro better, even with your all-ins, you wouldn't have won more. I'm positive your macro is (relatively) atrocious if you are in silver/gold. I play with GMs, and all the time, they tell me, Belial, you have the shittiest fucking macro. Why do you never make drones? Why do you always have idle larva? I tell them.... I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, I am macroing fine, I am only making drones. I rewatch the replays, and I constantly have 2 second gaps where I don't make drones, especially around 40+ supply, and at 50+ supply I tend to miss injects. But I sooooo focus on my macro, and my macro is way ahead of most people at my points level in masters. But I still have the shittiest macro. So if you are diamond, or gold, there is just no way you are going to have better macro than someone in masters. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On April 15 2012 06:38 Acritter wrote: Strategy is VERY important. A player in a lower league needs to pick a strategy that they can actually execute. If they're going for, I dunno, triple-pronged drop harass, then they're gonna lose every time because they can't actually do that. It's nothing about "counter this, counter that", it's about finding something that works and running with it. Like belial already said, this makes no sense. The reason a low league player can't do triple-pronged drop harass is because if they try to do that, their macro implodes because they can't multitask like that. The idea to do triple drop harass is strategy... deciding NOT to do that because you're focusing on macro, is ignoring strategy and focusing on macro. You want to use the compositions and tactics which puts the least strain on you, because you're busy macroing. IF you're macroing well, it doesn't matter what strategy you use, be it triple pronged harass (amazing if you can actually macro well while doing it) or mass marine. | ||
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Sylvanium
Canada32 Posts
But please, if you are a lower level player, provide a replay of a game you lost, 8+ minutes long, that you lose, that you think isn't because of macro. So far, only one person has taken this challenge. It wasn't a surprise to me that his macro was actually horrible, even in the first 9 minutes, and his replay was proof that a low level player actually can't macro. I'll find you a replay in which Macro was not the deciding factor for my lost. I'm not saying that I'll have Masters level Macro, I'm saying that I'll look through my replays and find a few choice replays where my macro was either Equal, or Slightly Better, then my opponent's. Assuming my Macro is on par with my opponent or even better then my opponent and I still loose the game, can we still blame my Horrible-Non-Master-Level-Macro as the cause of loosing the game?!? But give me a few days and I'll find a few replays for you so you can have fun, prove that I don't have Master level Macro and blame my lost on that. However when I do upload these replays I expect that you will look not for just the one obvious solution of "Well hey, if you even had a better Macro then your opponent then you already have you would have won anyway" but for other solutions like bad decisions on my part, like missed opportunities that I really should have capitalized on and such. Remember I'm not looking for Master's level Macro I'm looking for any edge that would have allowed me to win in that particular situation. Tell me if you don't plan to do this since there will be no reason for me to upload the replays. We all know that a Gold leaguer can not have Master's Level Macro that is simply impossible but he can be expected to have Equal Macro to or Slightly better Macro then his opponent that has been chosen for him or her using Blizzard's Auto Match system. Agreed? I play with GMs, and all the time, they tell me, Belial, you have the shittiest fucking macro. Why do you never make drones? Why do you always have idle larva? I tell them.... I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, I am macroing fine, I am only making drones. I rewatch the replays, and I constantly have 2 second gaps where I don't make drones, especially around 40+ supply, and at 50+ supply I tend to miss injects. But I sooooo focus on my macro, and my macro is way ahead of most people at my points level in masters. But I still have the shittiest macro. So if you are diamond, or gold, there is just no way you are going to have better macro than someone in masters. So all lower leaguers in your opinion should never ever ever ever concentrate on anything else then building units, keeping your money low, improving your income rate in order to get better? That would result in a lot of marines standing around waiting to be slaughtered in my opinion. You say so yourself, when you play a player whom is out of your league (as in above you on the ladder) he beats you macro wise, well big surprise, I have a feeling that this is pretty much standard for most players. Keep in mind I'm not trying to prove that Macro is not a way to improve yourself, I'm trying to prove that Macro is not the ONLY way to improve yourself. Macro is good and should ALWAYS BE WORKED ON, but there are other aspects to the game that if ignored will prove to be a problem later on namely Strategy. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'm saying, bronze to plat (really, diamond too, and most masters probably), if you just macro better, you would do much better. Not macro well, just macro competently. The argument here is that bronze-plat play with such bad macro, that if you just focused on macro'ing competently, you would be higher ranked overnight. Sure, I'll look over the game without bias. If you lost because of a blunder, that's something we already said that is an obvious mistake. If you lost because of a strategy, well, I'd like to see that. But if you are bronze-plat, I can guarantee if you just macro stronger, you would win. People in bronze-plat just don't macro 'competently'. Most would argue mid-masters can't macro worth shit either. As in, they don't just have bad macro, they can't macro at all. So all lower leaguers in your opinion should never ever ever ever concentrate on anything else then building units, keeping your money low, improving your income rate in order to get better? That would result in a lot of marines standing around waiting to be slaughtered in my opinion. You say so yourself, when you play a player whom is out of your league (as in above you on the ladder) he beats you macro wise, well big surprise, I have a feeling that this is pretty much standard for most players. Yes... No, it wouldn't result in marines standing around to be slaughtered. Another straw man argument. If you constantly make workers, you will have steadily increasing income. In order for you to keep your money below 400 at all times, you need to constantly spend it. As your worker count increases, your rate of income increases. The only way you can spend your money, is teching up. If you macro well, eventually you will have no choice but to go mass bl/infestor, or archon/colossi/mothership, or ghost/tank/viking/thor or marauder/ghost/medivac/viking or ultra/bane/infestor. Secondly, any bronze level player will know enough to get medivacs with their marines, or get infestor with broodlords, et cetera. Third.... you can stomp anyone in bronze with pure marine, pure zergling, pure any unit, because people just play so badly there. I would not consider bronze 'low level', I would consider it people who don't know the controls of the game yet, 10 year olds, bots, and handicapped. Keep in mind I'm not trying to prove that Macro is not a way to improve yourself, I'm trying to prove that Macro is not the ONLY way to improve yourself. Macro is good and should ALWAYS BE WORKED ON, but there are other aspects to the game that if ignored will prove to be a problem later on namely Strategy. Every masters+ player, a blue, high masters, pro players, people who know what they are talking about, are saying you are wrong. I guess we're all assholes, and you just know better though, right? Can you tell me anything else that us masters+ players are ignorant on? I agree with you completely. But the problem here, is that bronze to diamond players, don't play this game 'competently'. How can you incorporate strategy and timings when macro is so off, that timings don't exist? How can you play this game, if you don't even know the rules of it? That's the point we are making here. Learn the rules of the game - macro - then get on the strategy. And it's hard as fuck to macro, and I'm a mid-masters player, who is well aware that I can't macro worth shit. So I'm not trying to say it's easy, and I'm not trying to say diamonds are idiots. | ||
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Sylvanium
Canada32 Posts
I'll concede, had I not supply blocked myself I could have had maybe 2 or 3 more units during that first attack and it would have probably made a diffrence. HOWEVER, overall my Macro was similar to his, my Income was similar to his, my money was mostly low (not always but most of the time), besides a few supply blocks and a few times where I over-compensated for being supply blocked I am fairly proud of my current Macro skills, they of course need work, HARD WORK however for my current league and especially in this current game I believe that they were adequate and with that same level of Macro I probably could have won the game. Where I lost the game (strategy wise) was simply not scouting the fact that he was going HT, not responding to the High Templars by Getting Ghosts, and not spreading my units at the rally point in order to avoid them all being stormed at once. These are, probably in your opinion stupid mistakes, but this is low level strategies that I need to learn and implement, the cool thing is I know most of my problems, I get supply block and I over compensate for being supply blocked, I probably missed a round of SCVs or 2, I did not scout well enough to see what was comming, and I did not respond to what was there. These are both Macro and Strategy Mistakes, fixing one of them may actually allow me to win in a similar situation in the future, but I will eventually encounter the other problem soon again, so why not fix both problems?!?! Every masters+ player, a blue, high masters, pro players, people who know what they are talking about, are saying you are wrong. I guess we're all assholes, and you just know better though, right? Can you tell me anything else that us masters+ players are ignorant on? Well, its not that surprising that the top 4.5% which is to say, Masters and GrandMasters (please see earlier post for link to SC2Ranks.com for stats), look down at the other 95.5% of all players, find the simplest mistake they can find, proclaim that "Geez guys, fix that mistake and you'll be up here with us looking down uppon the rest." I'd actually hate the game is it was that simple. Its the complexity of all aspects of the game, Macro, Micro, Strategy, Reactions and Game knowledge that make this game fun. It's a complex game, a game that Masters and GrandMasters have worked very hard, on all aspects of it, to know what they know today. Us lower leaguers need to have that same dedication and hard work on all aspects of the game to get up there with you guys. All I ask is that when you try to help a lower leaguer, analyse all aspects of his game play, not just "Does he keep up his Macro" and suggest ways to fix each of the problems seen. Then help that player with the problem he wants to try and fix, I garantee you, eventually when he has figured out how best to use the units at his disposal and still looses the game, he will fix the Macro thing if he chooses not to work on that at first. I believe I have explained my point, wrong though some people may think it is, fairly well. I strongly believe in it and well, what is the worst that can happen? I stay in the so called Lower Leagues for as long as I play the game? well why not, at least I'm playing against other individuals whom are reasonably similar to me in Skills. All I'm really missing is a shiny picture on my SC2 screen that has a star on it, be it blue or gold. Thank-you, Good Luck, Have Fun and most of all, go and have Good Games PS : For the record, I do not believe that any player, no matter what league he or she is in, is an asshole for merely expressing an opinion that I may or may not agree with, quite the contrary, discussion and healthy argument are great and just improve the game experience. But I really do dislike BMers, I mean what possible purpose could that serve?!? | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On April 16 2012 04:16 Belial88 wrote: I don't know exactly what you are saying. I can imagine it, but it doesn't make much sense. Like what, you would attack with your army 'when you shouldn't'? But that makes no sense. Like, why would you ever have more than 4-10 units before 60 supply? You shouldn't be making so many units. Thus, bad macro. Ok, now we're getting somewhere. You're sweeping far too much under the rug of 'bad macro', as well as making weird assumptions about what 'must' be happening in order to support your opinion. You just have to provide replays. No low leaguer has yet done this besides charon. Please, provide your gold level replays that are so strategic. I guarantee we can pick it apart, and show you huge macro flaws that, if fixed, would get you diamond. Just basic stuff too. You're still not listening. Yes, you will unquestionably find large macro flaws in my play. Yes, if my macro were dramatically better I would be higher up the ladder. But I just got done telling you that improving my macro required improving my understanding, game-sense and decision-making, and that improving them raised me a league virtually overnight after months of attempting to 'focus on macro' in silver with no in-depth understanding of what I was macroing towards in any given situation. I am now in a place where 'macroing better' actually has some meaning, because I can look at what my opponent is doing and have an idea what I'll need to have when, what his likely response will be if the first exchange goes my way, and hence how I'll be wanting to follow-up. Without that understanding - without strategy - I'm just randomly building random shit in an attempt to 'keep my money low'. Maybe that works for races with stalkers or marines and a fixed worker production rate; it sure as shit wasn't working for me as Zerg. It's not strategy to not all-in when you have the macro lead over the opponent too, by the way. It's just... I don't know. It's just... strategy. Getting from where you are now to where you want to be with the resources at your disposal - which requires an understanding of 'where you are now' that includes your opponent, what they can or are likely to do next, and so forth. People keep telling you you're taking too much for granted and you don't listen. But you didn't learn 'strategy' by realizing "Hey, I shouldn't mass units and a-move when i have the lead". Although I really can't imagine that if you didn't macro better, even with your all-ins, you wouldn't have won more. I'm positive your macro is (relatively) atrocious if you are in silver/gold. And you're right: it is. But it's now improving more quickly because I'm thinking about a bigger picture that I understand more clearly. I spend less time sitting on minerals, gas and larvae wondering what I should spend them on. I more often instinctively look away from battles to macro, because I now 'get' that the battle is a comma rather than a full stop. I play with GMs, and all the time, they tell me, Belial, you have the shittiest fucking macro. Why do you never make drones? Why do you always have idle larva? I tell them.... I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, I am macroing fine, I am only making drones. I rewatch the replays, and I constantly have 2 second gaps where I don't make drones, especially around 40+ supply, and at 50+ supply I tend to miss injects. But I sooooo focus on my macro, and my macro is way ahead of most people at my points level in masters. But I still have the shittiest macro. So if you are diamond, or gold, there is just no way you are going to have better macro than someone in masters. This is irrelevant (apart from the bit about you having macro 'way ahead of most people at your points level' which actually harms your argument). I'm not claiming to have good macro, let alone better macro than anyone else. I'm saying one thing: I found that I could not improve my macro in a meaningful way without a better understanding of my goals in any given situation. It simply wasn't happening. Whether that's just me, just Zerg, or what, I don't know. In any case, it's a fact that trying to obey the 'macro first and foremost' mantra with insufficient knowledge of strategy kept me in silver for a good six months. It wasn't the right way for me to try to improve. Now I'm working on my macro, and it's paying off. If you really, really want me to subject you to replays, I will (when I get to the machine they're on). However, they would be misleading because you would mostly see my macro improving, but not appreciate why it was improving. And yes, you would be able to point out a million things I'm still doing terribly, and if you mostly fixed them I'm sure I would get to diamond. That's certainly my plan | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
- Dude you are missing workers already. 2:20 to 2:30, you didn't make a worker. - You make orbital on 14. Isn't it supposed to be on 15? maybe this is because of yoru super fast rax. Why in the world did you make a super fast rax, and not do anything with it? It's like a defensive 6 pool... - Your depot was a bit early. You sit below 18 supply for a long time, due to addon production and OC. Make that depot later... - 3 rax is really all-in, but, hey, strat doesn't matter, so moving on. - 160 gas already... you need to make your gas later. you take gas too quickly, obviously. - whoa you make your 26 depot wayyyy too early. Now you are at 21/35. Dude. You are killing yourself here. why not go 4 rax instead of early depot? Maybe you could have made more scvs and done the same build, without having to cut workers. Your hurting yourself... - 200 gas before 25 supply. dude. this is horrible. take it later, get an expansion in there instead. - Late on mules... - why are you scanning if you went all-in with 3 rax? You only need to scan if you went like 1 rax expand or cc first or gasless expand. You also could have just sent an SCV or a marine to scout, and seen no expo, and that would have told you all you need to know. - so you are already hurting your econ by a lot now. scanning when going all-in. making depots way too early. you should be pushing by now. - Missing scvs at 25... you don't make one from 5:05 to 5:29. Wow. then, you make another depot! when you are at 21/35! What in the world is going on here!?!?! YOU ARE AT 26/43!!!! You SCAN WHEN YOU ARE GOING ALL-in!!! wtf! - So. your all-in fails because you scan, don't make workers, and make depots so damn early, and make your rax and gas way too early (11/12....when you just sit in your base). - hoooly shit. 26/43, you start another depot. why not make a rax or OC with that money? - 5:45 to 5:51, no scv. - 5:45 to 6:01 you don't use your reactor rax.... so you are already behind a couple marines already. - 200 gas, come on. 6:00. pull off workers from gas, and get 2 more rax, or an expansion, or whatever you want man. - No marauder for 10 seconds - no marine for 5 seconds. - 6:20 to 6:43, no marines. So you have over 40 seconds of no marine production now, so you are at least behind 4 marines. You are constantly not making marauders either, you on average have only 1 marauder in production instead of 2. - why do you have 2 tech labs? why didnt you get stim? you had the moeny for it. You are always above 200/200. - no marine 7:05 to 7:13 - 6:55 to 7:01 no 2nd marauder (which has been happening all game long, just 1 marauder instead of 2 muarauders in production) - 7:46 to 9:37, no scv. - 7:35 to 9:30, you make about 6 marines, when you could have easily made about 12. single marine only, not making any marines for long stretches... - supply blocked at 58... - 8:20 to 8:56, no marauders in production... - it's 8:00, you didn't make an scv for at least 30 seconds... - wow you a-move, but you can't macro behind it. dude, you don't need to watch the battle. and if you had more units, hit a bit earlier, and hit harder with stim or something and macro'd just half better dude, you would've won the game right then and there. But not only do you not win the game there, you fail to macro behind an a-move. Seriously. You could have won this game if you just a-moved and focused on your macro instead. Because you ddin't micro at all anyways, so why are you bothering watching the engagement? you shouldve just a-moved through the minimap and focused on your macro. It'd be nice if you could do both, but you can't. which is okay. but if you focused on your macro, you would have won. so lets look at some more trouble. would have easily won that fight if you macro'd better... im not even saying make your depots on time, go 13 rax instead of all-innish 11 rax, 16 gas instead of ridiculous 12 gas, and MULE better. I'm saying, hey bro, make workers, make marines and marauders. You fail to do that. Utterly. If you didn't, you would have won this game. If you had actually macrod well, well god damn, you would just be the beast of gold league. In fact, you would be diamond overnight! No need to watch rest of replay. You open with an all-in, fail at it because of horrendous macro (okay, so you avoid supply blocks until 58, but it is not better at all that you were at 26/43 supply.... that's just as bad as being supply blocked every time). But some more fail... - supply blocked at 70/70 for a long ass time. - Over 700 minerals and gas at 12:00. - 86/86... for a long time... - 102/102 Okay. So it's obvious you have this horrible all-in build that you do every time. You do it horribly, but hey, you do it, I can tell. Know how I can tell? Because you dont get supply blocked until 58 supply. You make depots just over and over and way too early. Which is about as bad as being supply blocked, but I can tell you make those depots on a certain schedule, you make 1 and then make another when it's done, even though you have only 1 rax, which is making an add-on, and a CC, whcih is turning into an OC. So whatever. repetition there. But as soon as your all-in fails, you have no idea what to do, and you get supply blocked every single time. Then you go "oh shit, i need to make 2 depots". then you get depot every time. But every time, you are supply blocked... - You a-move in the battle, but you dont make annnything again... come on. You should have doubled yoru army size during the attack that you halved his. - Normally when you get map control or crush a push, you tech up. It's basic macro. I mean, if you want to spend that 500/500 you have, you NEED to tech up. You dont make any starports, for medivacs OR vikings, or get ghost tech. And so you bank money. But you really aren't banking that much, because you are at FORTY (holy fucking shit!!!!) workers at 15 minutes into the game, when you should have at least 60. Wowwwww only 40 workers, you are sooooo dead in macro. Please make svs, even though you haven't made a single one for the last 2 minutes. - Why dont you get medivacs? You not having ghosts was not why you lost, your horrible macro was why you lost. And you have no medivacs. You could have just made medivacs, you need them no matter what your opponent had, and would have been fine... So, a replay proving that low level players can't macro at all, and that if you had just done basic macro in the first 9 minutes, you would have easily won. And I know it's hard. To you, it looks like good macro. But that's the problem. Everyone thinks they macro well, but in reality, they macro like total shit. I can tell you that I macro 10x better than you, but high masters say I macro like shit, and I can tell I macro like shit when I watch my replays. Learn the very, very valuable skill of knowing how to analyze your macro. I watch every single game I play, win or lose, and analyze my macro in the first 8 minutes, then for any glaring macro issues after 8 minutes (did i take 4th on time? did i bank money? larva?). I rarely watch reps for strategy, that's easy to figure out. What's hard, is figuring out how my macro factored into my loss. But thanks for posting a rep, and at least having the balls to do that. Even if it actually proved my point, and proved yourself wrong. It really goes to show how low level players just don't understand, and delude themselves. It's a tough fucking game, so there's nothing wrong with you. You just need to understand that you can macro your way to masters. Every masters will tell you that. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'd actually hate the game is it was that simple. Its the complexity of all aspects of the game, Macro, Micro, Strategy, Reactions and Game knowledge that make this game fun. It's a complex game, a game that Masters and GrandMasters have worked very hard, on all aspects of it, to know what they know today. Us lower leaguers need to have that same dedication and hard work on all aspects of the game to get up there with you guys. All I ask is that when you try to help a lower leaguer, analyse all aspects of his game play, not just "Does he keep up his Macro" and suggest ways to fix each of the problems seen. Then help that player with the problem he wants to try and fix, I garantee you, eventually when he has figured out how best to use the units at his disposal and still looses the game, he will fix the Macro thing if he chooses not to work on that at first. The game only gets complex at the higher levels. That's why they say, any strategy is viable in diamond. Because people don't macro well at all in the lower leagues, that bad strategy is never punished. You can try to use strategy in the lower levels, sure. But in the lower levels, if you macro well, you can beat anyone. If you had good macro, you would be in masters. | ||
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