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Some days ago I have seen Cloud do a build on Shakuras that uses tanks to hold the natural early on while getting fast upgrades and a third in-base OC. I think I have already seen that build or something similar somewhere else but I can't remember where.
The build looked somewhat like this:
gasless fe (maybe even cc first)
only 2 rax
add double gas
factory (techlab start siege and tankproduction)
2 reactors on the rax
double engineering bay
3rd cc
stop tank production at 3/4
switch rax to the techlab get another techlab with the other rax and build 2 additional rax on the reactors
get starport and continue upgrades while getting stim and combat shields
This is just how I remember it and it may be a bit different.
This last hour I have been looking for replays that show defensive tank openers but I haven't really gotten anywhere. I basically only found one replay of MMA against Feast from IEM Kiev but that was basically a reactor hellion expand into tanks and was a bit of a wonky game because Feast did a blink all in.
So if you guys know which build I mean or have replays or vods of a similar style I would really appreciate it. I am not looking for 2 base tank marine pushes only for defensive tank openings that use a couple of defensive tanks to get away with tech from 2 bases and transition into normal bio play. I am not sure but I think MKP might have done something like this as well.
If you have any other thoughts on builds like this feel free to discuss them.
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Russian Federation164 Posts
Maybe I miss smth, but what if Protoss scouts that, gets 3rd too and either turtle (any tech path helps: Charge/Collosus/Blink/Phoenix/HT/Arcons) or keeps his army at your front with some WP drops?
P.S. I don't mean it's bad or anything, just an opening, can't see the point :D
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On March 23 2012 18:34 Elefes wrote:
Maybe I miss smth, but what if Protoss scouts that, gets 3rd too and either turtle (any tech path helps: Charge/Collosus/Blink/Phoenix/HT/Arcons) or keeps his army at your front with some WP drops?
P.S. I don't mean it's bad or anything, just an opening, can't see the point :D
It depends, if the other protoss thinks its a 2base allin with tanks and stuff, he might react absolutely terrible against this. If you keep the protoss in the dark about what you are doing, this seems pretty amazing actually.
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The point of that is to get really fast upgrades (starting +1+1 before stim and shields) while still being safe against 6 gates or collosus all ins. If the Protoss player gets a fast third its not as bad because you gonna have your third as well but with faster upgrades than normal.
It's just something I would like to play around with because I think Protoss players might not really understand what they are playing against immediately.
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Puma used it at the IEM World Championship against MC in the grand finals on Cloud Kingdom. Upon scouting the tanks mc cut probes and teched to colossus fearing a strong 2base push, whereas puma only got tanks to be safe against any kind of warpgate pushes. When mc scouted the 3rd inbase OC, he instantly pushed since he sacrificed a lot of economy to be able to combat the 2base marine tank push which he thought would occur.
Link below to the match
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/hanover/news/187584/#/masters/season6/hanover/sc2/playoffs/download/26117244/
edit: not quite sure if he went double ebay but the concept of the build is similar.
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This is the game I remember it from and now I know why I thought it might have been MKP because this counter drop was so gutsy, thanks.
Puma doesn't get 2 ebays but I guess I will try out both styles.
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Didn't GuMiho build tanks to counter the quick 3 nexus 8gate build in the GSL?
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Trying this myself you really really can't stay on tanks, they're just so bad >< good against all ins, I won't deny, esp. if they stalker heavy (esp with sentries, very nice counter)
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I remember MVP going fast 3OC into a marine tank contain vs MC on Antiga some months ago, probably it is just a slightly modified version of that build.
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It's decent especially on a map like shakuras but if protoss scouts it he is free to take their own third very fast with double upgrades and then they'll get into the lategame fairly unscathed which puts terran behind.
Defensive play is not the way to go in TvP imo, going heavy bio has the advantage of making it hard for P to take a third and 2 base vs 2 base is better for T then 3 vs 3.
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Does anyone have replays of MarineKing's variation? Or something similar?
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Not quite the same but related is what MMA did during IEM Hanover. He went 1 rax expand into banshee into 3 tanks for defense on Entombed Valley a few times vs Protoss. Maybe you wanna check it out.
It's a really cool build cause of the timing the banshee hits, the obs just arrives on T's base. 3 tanks are there for when P does a counter push and MMA placed them on the narrow high ground between the natural and 3rd.
Edit: IEM not Winter Arena.
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Yes it's absolutely marvelous against gateway all ins ( 6-7 gates) but now you are preparing for something that "might" come, and that's something you should not do.
The one fact i really like about it for the terran, is that they can get a safe 3th OC regardless of what the protoss is doing, and get double ebay behind it, which basically puts them on par with the protoss upgrades untill the later mid game. Usually terran starts 3/3 and the protoss is about to finish it.
I'm not quite sure what to think about it, because i have faced this twice on ladder last night and i just teched greedy and took a greedy third base. The terran couldn't do anything about it because they sack their drop potential for a good portion of the game.
the problem is, is that you have to invest into siege tech before you even had a chance to scout the protoss to see if they are going for a gateway all in.
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Wouldn't some form of immortal all-in be a great way to punish early tanks for defence? I have seen early defensive tanks used in a few pro games just to set up a nice midgame but I think it depends a lot on the map. Cloud kingdom and Shakuras plateu would be great to use tanks to defend gate all-ins.
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On March 24 2012 00:57 StimFesT wrote:
Wouldn't some form of immortal all-in be a great way to punish early tanks for defence? I have seen early defensive tanks used in a few pro games just to set up a nice midgame but I think it depends a lot on the map. Cloud kingdom and Shakuras plateu would be great to use tanks to defend gate all-ins.
Immortal all ins depend heavily on being able to forcefield repeatedly and with good tank positioning you can easily target down the sentries while focusing the immortals with your marines.
Marineking used the cloak variant against MC at MLG who did a fast third build but with robo so he was able to deflect the banshees with minimal losses. I am not sure if MC messed up his defense against Marinekings follow up push or if being aggressive is a solid option, too.
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On March 23 2012 18:49 Baum wrote:
The point of that is to get really fast upgrades (starting +1+1 before stim and shields) while still being safe against 6 gates or collosus all ins. If the Protoss player gets a fast third its not as bad because you gonna have your third as well but with faster upgrades than normal.
Both getting a fast third will lead into big late game engagement which isn't good for terran.
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Would be risky against some builds like blink stalkers, but if they're not that aggressive early game then it should be fine.
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On March 24 2012 23:25 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 18:49 Baum wrote:
The point of that is to get really fast upgrades (starting +1+1 before stim and shields) while still being safe against 6 gates or collosus all ins. If the Protoss player gets a fast third its not as bad because you gonna have your third as well but with faster upgrades than normal.
Both getting a fast third will lead into big late game engagement which isn't good for terran.
You will almost never be able to kill a Protoss from 2 bases so you have to take a third anyway. The Problem for Terran is not 3 base against 3 base it's when it goes beyond that but often times if you go for fast aggression you will end up behind in upgrades and tech during that 3 base vs 3 base stage which prohibits your from attacking so the game goes beyond that stage. My point is either you play really aggressive which has its downsides or your play really greedy. Both can earn you a win before the actual lategame advantage of Protoss kicks in
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EPT
