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On March 23 2012 07:39 Zheryn wrote:
I don't understand why they are getting the third so early, when you can't mine any extra minerals until you are saturated on 2 bases, and can't afford to have queens at three bases / use all larva early game anyway.
I get my third (which is placed at my natural most of the time) at 32 supply.
Primarily for larvae production. A hatchery spawns one larvae every 15 seconds and when going mass drone every larvae counts.
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On March 23 2012 06:11 Drunken.Jedi wrote:After a few tries I managed to get 85 supply at 8:00. With a bit more optimization I could go even higher since as you can see from the screenshot, I do have a bit of unspent resources. + Show Spoiler +
Well done!
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On March 23 2012 08:23 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 07:39 Zheryn wrote:
I don't understand why they are getting the third so early, when you can't mine any extra minerals until you are saturated on 2 bases, and can't afford to have queens at three bases / use all larva early game anyway.
I get my third (which is placed at my natural most of the time) at 32 supply. Primarily for larvae production. A hatchery spawns one larvae every 15 seconds and when going mass drone every larvae counts.
Agreed. A hatch spawns 3 larva for every 4 produced by a queen. You can get like 5 extra larva this way. Also, you get faster creep for a spine if you want to get one.
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Got to 85 supply with speed 15 sec away from being done while getting my 3d at 32 supply.
These builds are ofc only good when opponent goes for a very fast warpgate-push. It would be interesting to see how much supplt people could get to at like 10:30-11min or something like that (for delaying third/defending +2 timing attack).
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Watching the Stephano v JYP customs they played the other day (Stephano won all 4) it seems he supplyblocks himself on purpose at 70supply every time, then builds like 7-9 ovies at the same time to open up for mass unitproduction. They discussed it in the spectator chat, and I suppose it might be worth pointing out.
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On March 23 2012 08:16 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:13 mapleleafs791 wrote:
When does drg make extra queens except vs stargate? Iv been studying his play for the last couple weeks and i have never noticed this except when stargates come into play.
Not hating im just curious as it could be something i missed but i feel like i never see him take unusually fast extra queens I seem to have made an typo of some sort when I said 4th queen on the 3rd queen in my DRG 3 gas build outline. Fixing it now. I'm also editing it to emphasize that he delays his 3rd queen a bit compared to stephano. He does however almost always build that 4th queen around 7:30. It finishes 8:20, about the time when 2 units from a single stargate is at your base. Take the GSL finals for instance: GSL Finals game 1. Starts a 4th queen 7:30, Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 2. Starts a 4th queen 8:20. Scouts 3 gas. Ironically this is the game where genious went 2 proxy stargate all-in. GSL Finals game 3. Starts a 4th queen 7:30. No gas scouting. GSL Finals game 4. Starts a 4th queen 8:00. Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 5. Starts a 4th queen 7:20, and a 5th 7:30 when his OL sac spots a void ray. No gas scouting.
Nitpicking here but I suppose really that ought to have a spoiler tag as it's showing how many games were played. (And also what happened in them)
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On March 23 2012 08:43 shammythefox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 08:16 VoirDire wrote:On March 23 2012 06:13 mapleleafs791 wrote:
When does drg make extra queens except vs stargate? Iv been studying his play for the last couple weeks and i have never noticed this except when stargates come into play.
Not hating im just curious as it could be something i missed but i feel like i never see him take unusually fast extra queens I seem to have made an typo of some sort when I said 4th queen on the 3rd queen in my DRG 3 gas build outline. Fixing it now. I'm also editing it to emphasize that he delays his 3rd queen a bit compared to stephano. He does however almost always build that 4th queen around 7:30. It finishes 8:20, about the time when 2 units from a single stargate is at your base. Take the GSL finals for instance: GSL Finals game 1. Starts a 4th queen 7:30, Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 2. Starts a 4th queen 8:20. Scouts 3 gas. Ironically this is the game where genious went 2 proxy stargate all-in. GSL Finals game 3. Starts a 4th queen 7:30. No gas scouting. GSL Finals game 4. Starts a 4th queen 8:00. Scouts 4 gas. GSL Finals game 5. Starts a 4th queen 7:20, and a 5th 7:30 when his OL sac spots a void ray. No gas scouting. Nitpicking here but I suppose really that ought to have a spoiler tag as it's showing how many games were played. (And also what happened in them)
Well the finals was like 3 weeks ago. How long should one use spoiler tags for events?
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On March 23 2012 08:43 shammythefox wrote:Nitpicking here but I suppose really that ought to have a spoiler tag as it's showing how many games were played. (And also what happened in them)
Is it really necessary to have spoiler tags on several weeks old stuff? I mean, if someone is browsing TL now and still haven't watched the final, I assume they chose not to rather than not having the time for it yet (or they are extremely busy, but then they wouldn't even read this thread)
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On March 23 2012 08:34 Zheryn wrote:
Got to 85 supply with speed 15 sec away from being done while getting my 3d at 32 supply.
These builds are ofc only good when opponent goes for a very fast warpgate-push. It would be interesting to see how much supplt people could get to at like 10:30-11min or something like that (for delaying third/defending +2 timing attack).
Sounds interesting. Could you post a replay or a detailed outline of the build you used? Did you aim for an early attack with the speed finishing? What's the midgame goal?
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On March 23 2012 08:56 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 08:34 Zheryn wrote:
Got to 85 supply with speed 15 sec away from being done while getting my 3d at 32 supply.
These builds are ofc only good when opponent goes for a very fast warpgate-push. It would be interesting to see how much supplt people could get to at like 10:30-11min or something like that (for delaying third/defending +2 timing attack). Sounds interesting. Could you post a replay or a detailed outline of the build you used? Did you aim for an early attack with the speed finishing? What's the midgame goal?
Last few days I have been experimenting with ZvP 3base build timing, mostly to see how fast I could max out on +1 speed roaches or how high I could get to at like 10:30 for an attack on a quick third. Got maxed at 11:35, and just now I saw this thread so I went to try out how much supply I could have at 8 minute just using the same build but with a bit faster second and third gas to be able to get both speed, lair and a bunch of roaches. In my usual build I am getting pretty quick speed to scout the map for probes/pylons and delay a quick timing attack, get 60 drones then mass roaches.
I doubt any attack with decent amount of units can be in my base shortly after 8 minute mark, and if there is one it's probably pretty weak so I defend it with speedlings and a spine or two, otherwise I am ready with roaches if he goes for a little later attack, and if he doesn't attack I go collect the points at 11 min since my opponents are platinum/diamond league and aren't able to defend the mass roach :D
This is the replay: http://drop.sc/140281 (hardly optimized, just did a few tries on this challenge)
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I would love to know when exactly is the best time to take the third. I see as variable as 18 supply, to 38 supply, by pro players. I've run evo chamber a few times, and I think optimal is around 30, but I have no idea.
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When I was trying to find the absolute best way for this and brag about better droning than DRG or Stephano, I found a glitch about spawning larvae that could affect the result. It is very rare and rather insignificant, some might say, but this glitch could prevent you from reproducing the same result even if you do everything right.
I've done an extensive research on it, and made a TL post.
Larva disappearing Glitch (not about 20th larva)
It may be patched in the future, but for now, people need to be aware of the randomness the game has if you search for the absolute optimal macro ZvP and consider 1 or possibly 2 less drones at 8 min mark not as your fault, but Blizzard's.
Thank OP, VoirDire for inspiring my work and I have your name at Special Thanks in my post.
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On March 23 2012 06:11 Drunken.Jedi wrote:After a few tries I managed to get 85 supply at 8:00. With a bit more optimization I could go even higher since as you can see from the screenshot, I do have a bit of unspent resources. + Show Spoiler + I'd really like to see the replay of that. I'm struggling to even get at 80.
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I'd say the DRG version since DRG is a better player.
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DRG is incredibly greedy, and playing on GSL maps, not blizzard LE maps. You have to realize that 3 gas late, is totally different than 2 gas early. 2 gas early means you will get speed out early, while 3 gas late means that no matter what, you won't have speed by the 8:00 mark.
Which is just really hard for most players to pull off, not having speed. He usually skips speed even, and goes lair before speed. It takes some pretty goddamn good micro. And he isn't throwing his roach warren earlier to compensate, or anything like that. Unless your DRG, it's goddamn hard to pull off in a real game.
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On March 26 2012 15:10 Belial88 wrote:
DRG is incredibly greedy, and playing on GSL maps, not blizzard LE maps. You have to realize that 3 gas late, is totally different than 2 gas early. 2 gas early means you will get speed out early, while 3 gas late means that no matter what, you won't have speed by the 8:00 mark.
Which is just really hard for most players to pull off, not having speed. He usually skips speed even, and goes lair before speed. It takes some pretty goddamn good micro. And he isn't throwing his roach warren earlier to compensate, or anything like that. Unless your DRG, it's goddamn hard to pull off in a real game.
I think delaying speed in favor of a faster lair is probably the best way to go. It's a little more susceptible to a 2-base all-in, but speed finishes around 8:20 anyway, usually around the time P pushes out unless he went for a 6-gate zealot timing. The 10:30-timing with speed roaches are just so damn good to pass up with going for early speedlings imho. There is almost no way of holding it if you don't specifically prepare for it. And you'll be virtually guarranteed a 3 base economy vs 2 base between 8:00 to 12:00.
I presume that if the 8 lings is being chased away of if the OL sac spots gateways being built he'll put down a roach warren earlier, and maybe even some spine crawlers at the 3rd. I also think the extra lings DRG produces at 6:20 are crucial in his delayed roach warren build.
EDIT: I agree that on maps with shorter rush distances some additional preparation is required.
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On March 26 2012 11:52 Belial88 wrote:
I would love to know when exactly is the best time to take the third. I see as variable as 18 supply, to 38 supply, by pro players. I've run evo chamber a few times, and I think optimal is around 30, but I have no idea.
I think the 4:20-4-30 timing with a second queen has to be the best. Queens give more larvae per cost than hatcheries and you can't saturate a 3rd taken that early anyway.
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http://www.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/314651590?t=114m
Stephano 11 min max
15 pool
15 hatch
15 Ovy, send to protoss main
15 queen
2 lings on pool complete
21 Ovy, send to protoss expo
Queen right after first one finishes and send the first queen to the natural
One inject with the first queen at the natural then a creep tumor then send to 3rd
25 expo
Third queen at natural
44 Double gas
6:51 RW
Lair first 100 gas then 2 more gas and evo chamber. (should be around 55 food)
***Note: make ovelords 2 at a time past 44 supply
3 bases saturated and 4 gas saturated --> Macro hatch and start roach production
Make around 7 overlords at 75 supply. (some before and some after the macro hatch)
He loses an overlord around 25 supply, so he probably could have maxed around 11 mins instead of 11:10.
Supply at 8 mins: 74
First roaches pop at 9 mins.
Stephano was greedy as fuck this game. However, I think he can deal with +1 timings. He had his RW finish at 7:45 and had around 100 gas before he started upgrading. I guess he just delays those upgrades if he is attacked.
My biggest worry going for this build would be cannons or the 3 pylon block. Only 2 lings for the first 8 minutes is just insane.
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i'll try to let sc2fusion compute the optimal build ..
how many roaches is "maxed out" ?
I'll start computation with 65 drones, 4 queens, 6 lings => 76 supply => 62 roaches
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KknBI.jpg)
