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On March 13 2012 09:33 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 09:28 Host- wrote:
It's not too hard really. Push the front of their base, whilst dropping every single base they have. As taxing as that may be on your apm, there is no way a Zerg can defend it all. (I'm a Zerg -> Thats how I lose ZvT). Also if you're not pushing the front, do like triple medivac drops, snipe hatch, pickup, go next base. It's not too hard really. Yes it is. It is very fucking hard. Please don't act like you would be some Code S caliber. If you drop 3 places at once and push the front, you will get overrun with your main push. Even if you would be able to snipe 1 expansion from those 3 drops, you would still be behind because you just gave away your whole army probably very cost-inefficient. Counter attacks, complete loss of mapcontrol is what you get in addition to that. Most Zergs will also have spines and a handful of lings defending their bases, so no, what you suggest is not the solution and certainly not easy. Watch Stephano vs Happy and how well Happy played on Shakuras with complete abuse of the map which isn't possible on most maps or at least no in that same fashion and he still barely won by the skin of his teeth. Happy by the way is very fast and has very high APM and did drop 3 bases at once all the time. =.= Seriously. I don't want to judge, but I don't think you are insanely high on the ladder, otherwise you wouldn't talk like that.
....If your main push gets over run then your drops will do severe damage. My rank on ladder is irrelevant, but I'm top 8 master on NA, and GM on SEA, take what you will from that.
If play Ling Festor at a high level, if I take no damage from drops, I win, it's as simple as that. YOU as the Terran player have the ability to drop where ever, and whenever you please. Someone further up said that a single viking can clean up every single overlord on the map. He's spot on. There is no way a Zerg player can defend a push at the front and multiple drops at the same time. They will take damage, and that's how you will ultimately win.
You seem to have gotten really worked up over this, especially considering you decided to send me a pm, I'm expressing my opinion on how I lose when playing ling festor ultra.
Edit: In regards to the OP, as soon as you identify their going ling festor, keep on the ball with your upgrades. If youre 0-0 or 1-1 against 3-3 ultras and cracklings, you're going to lose. Marines just tickle things at that point. If you stay up par with upgrades you'll be in great shape.
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If you would actually read what I wrote in the thread, I did also mention to get that viking to deny the scouting of the Zerg. I did also mention to keep your hellions alive to deny creep and a thirdbase as long as possible and pressure the Zerg before the infestor timing. Additionally I did mention to instantly counter-upgrade with an double ebay as soon as you know you are facing this style.
'Severe' damage with you drops (if at all) is not enough if you give a way an army for it. If you usually have very close fights against this style, you want to send out 3 medivacs and nearly 30 marines that will be missing in your army. This could lead in a completely onesided rape and to be honest, 8 marines and a medivac will not completely shut down any competent Zerg in the mid or lategame. Obviously it can happen, but if you want to count on that, good luck on actually higher levels of play.
You are correct with what you say about the drops, yet you act like its easy - even more - you state its easy and I bet my ass you didn't even try to play Terran. If I shut down drops I win, as simple as that. Yes, we understood that and thats what the OP is implying with 'how do I beat that style' because even if you can 'freely' drop, time and location where to drop is important and insanely hard to figure.
Not everyone here is Polt or MVP who can completely pressure Zerg non-stop and I understand that its our lack of ability, yet pulling it off is very hard - please don't make it sound easy, thats the only point I wanted to make.
Now sincerely you can take your 'fuck off' from your reply in your PM and have a nice day, because insulting is not something I want to comment on.
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On March 13 2012 10:15 Type|NarutO wrote:
If you would actually read what I wrote in the thread, I did also mention to get that viking to deny the scouting of the Zerg. I did also mention to keep your hellions alive to deny creep and a thirdbase as long as possible and pressure the Zerg before the infestor timing. Additionally I did mention to instantly counter-upgrade with an double ebay as soon as you know you are facing this style.
'Severe' damage with you drops (if at all) is not enough if you give a way an army for it. If you usually have very close fights against this style, you want to send out 3 medivacs and nearly 30 marines that will be missing in your army. This could lead in a completely onesided rape and to be honest, 8 marines and a medivac will not completely shut down any competent Zerg in the mid or lategame. Obviously it can happen, but if you want to count on that, good luck on actually higher levels of play.
You are correct with what you say about the drops, yet you act like its easy - even more - you state its easy and I bet my ass you didn't even try to play Terran. If I shut down drops I win, as simple as that. Yes, we understood that and thats what the OP is implying with 'how do I beat that style' because even if you can 'freely' drop, time and location where to drop is important and insanely hard to figure.
Not everyone here is Polt or MVP who can completely pressure Zerg non-stop and I understand that its our lack of ability, yet pulling it off is very hard - please don't make it sound easy, thats the only point I wanted to make.
Now sincerely you can take your 'fuck off' from your reply in your PM and have a nice day, because insulting is not something I want to comment on.
I play Terran offrace at like a plat level, and I can queue up drops, which is what most people seem to do.
Is it really that hard, to take 20 seconds out of your macro, to queue 3-4 points to fly past, then finally 'd' to drop marines.....
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Just so you guys know, Stephano has switched it up a bit since playing Polt.
On stream he has been doing a 4 roach opener with slightly slower 1/1 ups, allows him to take a much faster third base, and he's been teching directly to broods, not ultras. I think his newer style is much better and much scarier.
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On March 13 2012 10:45 Flonomenalz wrote:
Just so you guys know, Stephano has switched it up a bit since playing Polt.
On stream he has been doing a 4 roach opener with slightly slower 1/1 ups, allows him to take a much faster third base, and he's been teching directly to broods, not ultras. I think his newer style is much better and much scarier.
Yes, its a slight variation to just go a few roaches to scare away the hellions, allow your creep to spread and get a fast third base. Still you can pressure the 3rd with the way Polt opens up. About Broodlords, I think they are less mobile compared to ultras and if you can try to outmove them or use drops, because Infestor/Broodlord really is immobile and you cannot afford to have your broodlords/infestors be apart, because broodlords alone will fall victim to marines or vikings.
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What I do when I go Ultras is leave 2 pair of Corruptors on each side of the map where drops usually come from. Helps me so much because it forces the Terran to manual drop marines to kill the corruptors or lose their medivacs if they just queue up and afk them.
I think BL vs Ultra is also map dependant. On wider maps, Ultra --> BL tech switch is amazing. But on smaller maps i.e. Shakuras, you pretty much have to go BLs unless you're way ahead.
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blue flame marine attack ->third, attack 1 minute after hive finishes with 2-2-1 upgrades.
Pretty much anything blue flame marine related will slow down ling infestor style of play enough to make the rest of the game pretty easy.
Edit:
Doing a marine blue flame timing with a quick third and double ebay behind it is pretty bad against a lot of other zerg builds, so it's kind of a coinflip if you don't know their style or get a really good read.
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heavy marine with equal upgrades while throwing in some marauders and ghosts works pretty well vs me, using drops to spread my units out and try to deny my fourth base.
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Missleading title, should said somthing about "stephano's ZvT"
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Thanks a ton naruto, i learned a lot :D
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On March 13 2012 12:05 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
Thanks a ton naruto, i learned a lot :D
Always happy that I can actually help some guys out there :-)!
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MMMG almost completely counters it.
If you are going to go marine tank its best to slowly engage with bunkers added as well and double medvac drops. Make sure not to lose the drops, and always target the brofestors with tanks. tanks are wasted if they target the lings. Thats what marines are for.
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ling/infestor isn't so hot against mech, at least until they get broodlords out.
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On March 13 2012 07:34 Silvertine wrote:
Just use Polt as an example. MMM is a bitch to play against when you use that style.
The thing about MMM as a counter is you need to have super good multitasking and macro at the same time, where as in most cases infestor ling is a very low action needed style, meaning zerg can focus on macro and getting really good engagments, where as as terran to counter needs to play at a much higher level...
Sort of like anyone vs protoss (I kid I kid)
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i think theres a keypart in the micro control
normally youd think you want to spread your bio and the tanks to abuse him being melee and using fungal as this super aoe but i think this is actually wrong way to approach it.
lings with high upgrades rip through bio thats spread out
i think its better to keep most of your army in a clump, especially the siege tanks pretty close together. as soon as zerg attacks, scan on it and youll see the infestors well ahead and then you target them all down with the tanks while sitting still with all bio in a clump
if you kill all infestors with the tanks, the lings wont stand a chance at all seeing how theres almost no surface area to fight the bio with
a big thing that makes mutalisk scary is that they deny drops, vikings and creates huge threats of counterattacks.
good sim city should should deal with counterattacks very easy vs ling infestor
a viking can roam around the map pretty uncontested hunting overlords aswell as patrolling the edges of zergs base to make it impossible for him to know if a drop is coming etc
to actually mass drop everywhere as some might think is a good way to abuse ling infestor i dont think this is very true.
lings are super mobile and 1 infestor with a handful of lings shut down drops super cost efficiently.
as long as your not forcing him to be on a certain part of the map, his units will be spread out across all bases to deal with these sorts of drops. therefor i think its more crucial to work on frontal power pushes.
the need for no turrets or leaving many units at home while pushing or threats to just die from any attacks of zerg (when bane speed and mutas would normally be out) allows you to get upgrades going super quick and establish a ton of econ and infrastructure.
then once you reach this high tank count and maybe 2-2 upgrades (example) you can start putting the real heavy pressure on.
its key to capitalize on the things mutalisk are normally for
the most normal way i see terrans fail against this style is:
-they waste too much units trying to get lucky drops
-they dont build up or plan real timing attacks
-they fail micro control and misunderstand how this army should be fought
-they are too passive or push too slow, allowing the ultras or broodlords to come out just in time
-they dont know how to push on the map without getting caught offguard and their entire army owned because of it
whenever i play vs infestor i feel more comfortable than vs rly good mutalisk players. it feels like i should win every battle unless i get caught unsieged or fail to target down the infestors with the tanks.
a good tip for the ones who have trouble getting caught unsieged against this style - keep a medivac well up infront of your army or have it follow the zerg army constantly. youd be amazed how much effort and energy it takes to kill 1 medivac with infestors. if they do it just send another one, after 2-3 medivacs are killed like this they wont even have energy left lol
ive also seen polt send in fake drops (empty medivac) into zerg bases that he knew are guarded by many infestors just to trigger him to kill it with purely infestor energy
another thing that you can do, but is pretty abusive (invest alot to counter infestor style without actually scouting it) is starting to tech cloak banshees early on. im not saying 1base cloak banshee. but if you start building cloak banshees from 1 starport after your 2base. you make it soo much harder for them to do anything at all. id recommend fooling around with this abit and see how it feels.
i think its super good anyway
the infestor ling play is quite easy to play with compared to mutalisk play. so it creates a false illusion that its super strong because the zergs your facing are harder to win against compared if they play mutalisk
naruto also gave some great points aswell. its super key to not lose your hellions (much moreso compared if they play bane muta ling) and going 6-8 hellions just to make it almost impossible for them to creep spread or take a 3rd is pretty darn good
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On March 13 2012 08:15 Type|NarutO wrote:
Usually Zergs that go for that heavy ling / infestor style will have 2 early evolution chambers and they will probably even have a macro-hatchery in base. An additional hint could be that they are trying to kill the hellions at all costs. They need to make tons of lings anyways and killing the hellions as long as there are no marines/medivacs around is their best shot.
Obviously it could still be muta play, there is no way to confirm it by 100%, but the trend goes towards infestors nowadays.
And it really doesn't make that much of a difference if you find out he does something else. If he is staying on 2 bases longer than usual you might have to scout for early mutas but otherwise you will find out what he does by pushing his third.
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wow thanks morrow and naruto for dropping them knowledge bombs. helps a ton 
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As a zerg playing this style more or less, I feel that drops can still be quite annoying. But above all, I would recommend for terran to take expansions a bit quicker, as you won't have to cover everything against mutas. you still have to be careful with a mass zergling attack, but think that zerg's idea is to push mainly with tier 3 units, not before...
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It's not too hard really. Yes it is. It is very fucking hard. Please don't act like you would be some Code S caliber. If you drop 3 places at once and push the front, you will get overrun with your main push. Even if you would be able to snipe 1 expansion from those 3 drops, you would still be behind because you just gave away your whole army probably very cost-inefficient.
Counter attacks, complete loss of mapcontrol is what you get in addition to that. Most Zergs will also have spines and a handful of lings defending their bases, so no, what you suggest is not the solution and certainly not easy.
Watch Stephano vs Happy and how well Happy played on Shakuras with complete abuse of the map which isn't possible on most maps or at least no in that same fashion and he still barely won by the skin of his teeth. Happy by the way is very fast and has very high APM and did drop 3 bases at once all the time.
=.= Seriously. I don't want to judge, but I don't think you are insanely high on the ladder, otherwise you wouldn't talk like that.
Just gotta correct that, first of all it was never by the skin of his teeth, he was in a very comfortable position the entire time. However the game got dragged out for ages because he insisted on trying to multitask Stephano to death instead of just pushing his economic advantage and killing him with one big push. While Happy might be very fast, he is still the inferior player in this case, so using that game as an example is no good.
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