Messing around last night with a flock of mutas, I noticed that their movement AI was actually affected by having an overlord in their group.
Without an overlord, mutas will spread out quickly in a line formation. With an overlord, mutas will spread out slowly in a small circle.
Here's a video where I demonstrate the differences:
Performing this technique is very simple: 1. Group an overlord (or any other unit that moves) with your mutas. 2. Fly your mutas around by clicking near your group.
Benefits: Mutas will group up more, allowing you to more easily single out enemy units. Because the group is smaller, you will be able to more easily dodge enemy units/turrets.
I really see no significant downsides to this technique. It's still not as good as Brood War muta stacking, but it's better than nothing. Obviously you wouldn't want to do this against thors or other units with splash, but you can just take the overlord out of your group once they come into play.
Have Fun!
Edit: Apparently Nestea has been doing this for quite a while. People probably thought he was trolling. =) + Show Spoiler +
Phoenixes also stack better with an observer added to their group, which is helpful when microing against mutas. Just make sure you watch out for infestors!
I don't really see that much difference between the two. In fact, I feel like you were just clicking more in front with the second control group, which caused the Mutas to spread out a bit less.
On March 05 2012 10:43 denzelz wrote: I don't really see that much difference between the two. In fact, I feel like you were just clicking more in front with the second control group, which caused the Mutas to spread out a bit less.
Don't worry, i tried it about 50 times. You can try it yourself if you don't believe me. The difference is real.
On March 05 2012 11:14 Murlox wrote: I don't get this.
You can aslo stack with a building in your group. Still makes no difference in my eyes?
Dude that sounds even more awesome, you just stack your mutas with an evo chamber or the spire and you can check your upgrades while muta microing like a baws
On March 05 2012 10:57 XRaDiiX wrote: Its a neat trick but it would be bad in most match-ups because AOE (archons,Fungals,Storms,Thors are mutas worst enemy). Other than marines.
Matchups aren't really what would make it "bad", it's more of players and situations. In Brood War Protoss had Corsairs, which were Pheonix with splash. Terran had Irradiate from the Science Vessel. These are ridiculous compared to Storm/Archon.
On March 05 2012 10:57 XRaDiiX wrote: Its a neat trick but it would be bad in most match-ups because AOE (archons,Fungals,Storms,Thors are mutas worst enemy). Other than marines.
Matchups aren't really what would make it "bad", it's more of players and situations. In Brood War Protoss had Corsairs, which were Pheonix with splash. Terran had Irradiate from the Science Vessel. These are ridiculous compared to Storm/Archon.
I worded that wrongly sorry. It's pretty much dangerous in all situations because of the closer clumped mutas would be more vulnerable to AOE .
I could see it being good very early game before too much AOE is out Though. There might be a window against Protoss/Zerg where this would be put to good use before infestors/storm/archon.
But vs Terran Thors are usually out pretty early.
It would making sniping stalkers faster i assume but there are other factors we must consider like how many mutas might of hit stalkers beside the stalker it was hitting instead of hitting an overkill shot. I've always wondered how this works.
Because if the Mutas that are further down the Flying Muta Flock arc probably hit different stalkers than it might not cause as much overkill damage when the Glaives hit the first stalker?
its not as useful because the muta range is 1 and the thor range is 999.
it would be so much more awesome if it worked aa bit better and you would be able to snipe things out of range of other things more specifically if that makes sense. this is kind of useful earlygame against terran or maybe toss.
you can actually see nestea add an overlord to the control group every time as well on the IM stream vods.
are you sure? the first half, you did the magic box trick. the second half, you were clicking inside the magic box. that's why they were not spreading as much? this is like the opposite situation to magic boxing.
On March 05 2012 11:31 cLunAsTyY wrote: its not as useful because the muta range is 1 and the thor range is 999.
it would be so much more awesome if it worked aa bit better and you would be able to snipe things out of range of other things more specifically if that makes sense. this is kind of useful earlygame against terran or maybe toss.
you can actually see nestea add an overlord to the control group every time as well on the IM stream vods.
Just know where the Thors are and go where they aren't.
On March 05 2012 11:31 jimbob615 wrote: are you sure? the first half, you did the magic box trick. the second half, you were clicking inside the magic box. that's why they were not spreading as much? this is like the opposite situation to magic boxing.
if he did magic box then his mutas would be in the same position relative to other mutas. However, all the mutas spread vertically as he moves them. Magic box only works if the units are already spread out. You cannot magic box stacked units.
They seemed to unstack when you went right while they remained stacked when you went left. Is that how the trick works or did they just unstack because you moved to the opposite side ?
On March 05 2012 11:57 BMM wrote: not trying to hate but wasn't this what everyone was doing in BW?? at any rate nice find, i'll be able to storm muta's better now :D:D
Ya, this is similar to what people did in BW, which is what led me to try it in the first place. It's just that most people, including pros, don't realize that it makes a difference in SC2. As someone mentioned earlier, I think the only pro who does this frequently is Nestea.
On March 05 2012 11:57 chuky500 wrote: They seemed to unstack when you went right while they remained stacked when you went left. Is that how the trick works or did they just unstack because you moved to the opposite side ?
You can move around in any direction. I think I just messed up and clicked too far away or not quickly enough when I switched directions.
interesting that this didn't come up before, but i guess in beta it was like omg, thor > 1000 mutas, so no one actually bothered trying to stack them better. Pretty interesting find, will make targetfireing worse, which will be pretty damn annoying for everyone before the aoes are out. Which is the case really often, so it is really a nice information. Atleast i am quiet happy i can easily snipe most air units still. Seeing the feedback on it though i don't think i have to fear alot.
Sweet. Good trick to finally discover in SC2. And here people thought it didn't make a difference / didn't work. Yup just try to avoid things like Thors and Storm and you should be ok. I think it has to do with risk vs. Reward. Since AoE existed in BW and they stacked mutas there too I think we just need to know when and where to use it as players (I play toss though so no impact on me directly)
You can achieve the same effect, by right clicking on another muta.OL move so slowly this trick is impractical. I think most pros have been using various techniques for muta stacking for a while already.
On March 05 2012 17:11 mothergoose729 wrote: You can achieve the same effect, by right clicking on another muta.OL move so slowly this trick is impractical. I think most pros have been using various techniques for muta stacking for a while already.
The overlords movment speed have nothing to do with anything lol.
On March 05 2012 17:11 mothergoose729 wrote: You can achieve the same effect, by right clicking on another muta.OL move so slowly this trick is impractical. I think most pros have been using various techniques for muta stacking for a while already.
The overlords movment speed have nothing to do with anything lol.
What do you mean it has nothing to do with anything? Unless you have an OL in position, then it is difficult to use this trick for any practical aggression. In ZvT and ZvP, you don't get to camp one place very often and reign glaves, most of it is hit and run. Snipe an scv and move on, you don't get to work on a group of depots for 20 seconds. ZvP is the same but even more so. Also, its not necessary. If you spam move command in the same spot, your mutas will stack the exact same way. I don't mean to be a jerk, but I just don't see the application for this trick in most real in game situations.
On March 05 2012 17:11 mothergoose729 wrote: You can achieve the same effect, by right clicking on another muta.OL move so slowly this trick is impractical. I think most pros have been using various techniques for muta stacking for a while already.
The overlords movment speed have nothing to do with anything lol.
What do you mean it has nothing to do with anything? Unless you have an OL in position, then it is difficult to use this trick for any practical aggression. In ZvT and ZvP, you don't get to camp one place very often and reign glaves, most of it is hit and run. Snipe an scv and move on, you don't get to work on a group of depots for 20 seconds. ZvP is the same but even more so. Also, its not necessary. If you spam move command in the same spot, your mutas will stack the exact same way. I don't mean to be a jerk, but I just don't see the application for this trick in most real in game situations.
the overlord doesnt need to be in position though.. it can be anywhere lol
On March 05 2012 17:11 mothergoose729 wrote: You can achieve the same effect, by right clicking on another muta.OL move so slowly this trick is impractical. I think most pros have been using various techniques for muta stacking for a while already.
The overlords movment speed have nothing to do with anything lol.
What do you mean it has nothing to do with anything? Unless you have an OL in position, then it is difficult to use this trick for any practical aggression. In ZvT and ZvP, you don't get to camp one place very often and reign glaves, most of it is hit and run. Snipe an scv and move on, you don't get to work on a group of depots for 20 seconds. ZvP is the same but even more so. Also, its not necessary. If you spam move command in the same spot, your mutas will stack the exact same way. I don't mean to be a jerk, but I just don't see the application for this trick in most real in game situations.
the overlord doesnt need to be in position though.. it can be anywhere lol
Do I not undertstand this trick then? You have to keep your mutas on move command or they will natural disperse correct? So if you plan to stack them, you have to get them to stack, then move to the position you want them. If there is no OL nearby, and you want to stack your mutas, then you are going to right click spam on another muta and move in the same way. If I am missing something please let me know.
On March 05 2012 17:11 mothergoose729 wrote: You can achieve the same effect, by right clicking on another muta.OL move so slowly this trick is impractical. I think most pros have been using various techniques for muta stacking for a while already.
The overlords movment speed have nothing to do with anything lol.
What do you mean it has nothing to do with anything? Unless you have an OL in position, then it is difficult to use this trick for any practical aggression. In ZvT and ZvP, you don't get to camp one place very often and reign glaves, most of it is hit and run. Snipe an scv and move on, you don't get to work on a group of depots for 20 seconds. ZvP is the same but even more so. Also, its not necessary. If you spam move command in the same spot, your mutas will stack the exact same way. I don't mean to be a jerk, but I just don't see the application for this trick in most real in game situations.
the overlord doesnt need to be in position though.. it can be anywhere lol
Do I not undertstand this trick then? You have to keep your mutas on move command or they will natural disperse correct? So if you plan to stack them, you have to get them to stack, then move to the position you want them. If there is no OL nearby, and you want to stack your mutas, then you are going to right click spam on another muta and move in the same way. If I am missing something please let me know.
U just have to group an OL with your mutas. And because you have another unit farer away from your mutas the group "behaves" in another way than they would with only the mutas selected, no extra clicks required.
However, i suck at SC:BW and SC2, thats just what i read over the years..., so im maybe wrong about the mechanics, but the statement itself should be true.
On March 05 2012 17:11 mothergoose729 wrote: You can achieve the same effect, by right clicking on another muta.OL move so slowly this trick is impractical. I think most pros have been using various techniques for muta stacking for a while already.
The overlords movment speed have nothing to do with anything lol.
What do you mean it has nothing to do with anything? Unless you have an OL in position, then it is difficult to use this trick for any practical aggression. In ZvT and ZvP, you don't get to camp one place very often and reign glaves, most of it is hit and run. Snipe an scv and move on, you don't get to work on a group of depots for 20 seconds. ZvP is the same but even more so. Also, its not necessary. If you spam move command in the same spot, your mutas will stack the exact same way. I don't mean to be a jerk, but I just don't see the application for this trick in most real in game situations.
the overlord doesnt need to be in position though.. it can be anywhere lol
Do I not undertstand this trick then? You have to keep your mutas on move command or they will natural disperse correct? So if you plan to stack them, you have to get them to stack, then move to the position you want them. If there is no OL nearby, and you want to stack your mutas, then you are going to right click spam on another muta and move in the same way. If I am missing something please let me know.
U just have to group an OL with your mutas. And because you have another unit farer away from your mutas the group "behaves" in another way than they would with only the mutas selected, no extra clicks required.
However, i suck at SC:BW and SC2, thats just what i read over the years..., so im maybe wrong about the mechanics, but the statement itself should be true.
So the OL just need to be in the control group in order to work?
The greatest part about muta stacking in BW is that you can achieve a ton of damage with just as little as 6 mutas, so you can hit a serious macro & tech (like lurker + upgrades) path whilst doing a lot of damage with a small harrassment group. Picking off turrets non stop, marines on edge of marine balls, scvs, & if you are JD godliness you can just outright win the game.
In SC2; they don't stack as efficiently still and the turrets do so much damage to small muta numbers, this still doesn't open up any new tier to TvZ. Marines clump much tighter too so whenever you attack 1 marine you have nearly half the ball raining fire at you also. Later on, the clump is good, but thors should be present by then too.
heh , was using this at the begining of sc2 because I had brood war reflexes to group mutas with ovie.. still, just clicking them to move back and forth again seems to stack them pretty good .. maybe I should try with ovie again :D
Has anyone given this a shot with a burrowed Zergling? I have read that that worked in BW as well, and has the advantage that the Zergling won't ever actually move toward your Muta flock and have to be moved far away again.
I thought this only worked in BW, but I guess it sorta carried over to SC2.
A lot of BW AOE spells were actually kinda bullshit for what its worth but progamers still kept stacking mutas together (for example BW storms actually pretty much kill off tanks in a matter of seconds and decimate worker lines and there's no avoiding irradiate, you had to split the irradiated muta away from the flock). So I wonder if it's going to be the same here in SC2. Though fungal kinda screws everything up.
uh you can also click right infront of mutalisks and thety will group up in a tight ball temporarily just for the moment to perhaps target a turret or something.
Hotkey overlord to some random control group (it's sc2 you probably have 5 or so free anyways), remove and add the overlord depending on whether you are engaging thors or not. Takes even more apm and probably impossible to do in lower leagues, but should to the trick.
Really funny it took us that long to discover something we already knew.
I am amazed that noone tried this earlier... While aoe can be devastating, just boxing your stacked mutas and pressing S, would start the spread almost instantly, no need to add and remove overlords or burrowed lings constantly. I don't see any reason not to try it.
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
I guess having a probe build a couple of pylons at the corner of the base in a way that traps itself would do the trick.
Edit: Correcting mistakes. what the hell is wrong with my head today -.-
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
Could you block your wall with a zealot and use a probe that's inside your base?
On March 05 2012 21:56 juicy wrote: Awesome find, I saw Nestea do this today also. Funny it took us so long
I noticed Nestea do this too but it seemed random, like sometimes his muta control group had an ov and sometimes it didn't. Hard to tell if it was a mistake or not.
On March 05 2012 11:57 BMM wrote: not trying to hate but wasn't this what everyone was doing in BW?? at any rate nice find, i'll be able to storm muta's better now :D:D
Ya, this is similar to what people did in BW, which is what led me to try it in the first place. It's just that most people, including pros, don't realize that it makes a difference in SC2. As someone mentioned earlier, I think the only pro who does this frequently is Nestea.
On March 05 2012 11:57 chuky500 wrote: They seemed to unstack when you went right while they remained stacked when you went left. Is that how the trick works or did they just unstack because you moved to the opposite side ?
You can move around in any direction. I think I just messed up and clicked too far away or not quickly enough when I switched directions.
Because you flew back over the overlord, they unstacked. It is not the grouping with the overlord that makes it work, but rather the fact that the overlord is far away from the mutas that keeps them stacked. If you look after the mutas are heading left after leaving the overlord, they almost completely stop destacking. They only had some destacking when they were near the overlord. That's how it worked in BW at least.
On March 05 2012 11:57 BMM wrote: not trying to hate but wasn't this what everyone was doing in BW?? at any rate nice find, i'll be able to storm muta's better now :D:D
Ya, this is similar to what people did in BW, which is what led me to try it in the first place. It's just that most people, including pros, don't realize that it makes a difference in SC2. As someone mentioned earlier, I think the only pro who does this frequently is Nestea.
On March 05 2012 11:57 chuky500 wrote: They seemed to unstack when you went right while they remained stacked when you went left. Is that how the trick works or did they just unstack because you moved to the opposite side ?
You can move around in any direction. I think I just messed up and clicked too far away or not quickly enough when I switched directions.
Because you flew back over the overlord, they unstacked. It is not the grouping with the overlord that makes it work, but rather the fact that the overlord is far away from the mutas that keeps them stacked. If you look after the mutas are heading left after leaving the overlord, they almost completely stop destacking. They only had some destacking when they were near the overlord. That's how it worked in BW at least.
Yeah this is definitely why they unstacked when he turned around, I also just tested it to try and find out.
This is actually really really useful, and I look forward to implementing it, nice job.
I tried this yesterday while off-racing, and can confirm that this works.
1. Group an overlord (or any other unit that moves) with your mutas.
You actually don't need a unit that moves. As someone suggested, I tried grouping my mutalisks with a spire, and it worked fine. I can also tab between the mutas and the spire to make upgrades.
On March 06 2012 05:17 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: Blizzard finds out and nerfs it in the next patch (troll face)
They only do that with Terran and Spellcasters. :S
It is because the "box" becomes larger when the ovie is in the ctrl group right? So every click is in the box which makes them clump... Before when you click outside the box they spread!
Hum, tested it a bit in a unit tester map. Yeah it seems to have a small difference. The map don't spread out in a line when moving that much with the trick.
i tried this long ago and didnt have same effect like in bw...they ninja patched it or something? i just been grouping it by spamming right click as it moves
I believe this trick has been around since the beta. Blizzard tried to emulate muta stacking from bw. There were complaints they didnt quite get it right.
I don't think it has the same effect when grouped with a building, I just played with it and when have the same group of mutas on control groups 1 and 2, and overlord in one and an evo chamber in 2, flying with control group one they operate like in the video, then switching to control group 2 while keeping up the move commands they spread out quickly.
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
Hmm I'm thinking make an enclosed space with buildings, and warp in a zealot, or enclose a probe with buildings, and use that. I'm going to test it right now...
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
Yeah this is the same magic box from BW, except in BW you could keep them stacked a bit more and it was a little easier to do (in terms of what things you could use in the group).
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
I just tested this, and it seems that using buildings instead of overlords works just as well. So you can select your mutas and one spire instead of selecting an overlord. EDIT: Just tested again, It seems I was wrong. T.T
On March 06 2012 10:08 Funguuuuu wrote: I just tested this, and it seems that using buildings instead of overlords works just as well. So you can select your mutas and one spire instead of selecting an overlord.
It didn't seem to when I tried, I'll have to give it another go.
And why are people disregarding my suggestion about the phoenix: create a sim city so that it has a small walled in space, then warp in a single zealot and use that, I tested in and it works.
On March 06 2012 07:45 snively wrote: Does it work with units that don't fly?
well it would be far away and break the magic box, your units would clump if they move, but you can achieve the same with an a click for ground units or right clicking on one of the units to clump them. So its not really practical.
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
Obs
Just tested. Phoenix group up much better with an observer added. Just make sure you don't do it when infestors come out!
On March 06 2012 10:08 Funguuuuu wrote: I just tested this, and it seems that using buildings instead of overlords works just as well. So you can select your mutas and one spire instead of selecting an overlord.
It didn't seem to when I tried, I'll have to give it another go.
And why are people disregarding my suggestion about the phoenix: create a sim city so that it has a small walled in space, then warp in a single zealot and use that, I tested in and it works.
Yeah, you're right, after further testing it seems I was wrong.
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
Take a page from bw strategy and trap your probe between plyons.
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
Take a page from bw strategy and trap your probe between plyons.
GAAAAHHHHH I've suggested this and a warp in zealot in enclosed buildings and no one is listening to me!
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
Take a page from bw strategy and trap your probe between plyons.
GAAAAHHHHH I've suggested this and a warp in zealot in enclosed buildings and no one is listening to me!
I'm listening
Also you could try blinking a stalker into a place where it is stuck, but this may be too much tech idk.
In other news, actually to keep mutas stacked to snipe things (like pylons, cannons, probes/drones/scv's) is not really hard... just spam click while you dance and its done.
On March 06 2012 02:59 kcdc wrote: Stacking is very important for phoenix vs muta micro. Any good ideas for Protoss units to throw in the control group?
Obs
Just add a pylon to your control group.
EDIT: Nevermind. Apparently observers work just as well. (It's just not something I would do super late game with observer speed in play )
On March 08 2012 19:37 evanthebouncy! wrote: umm... just stacking is only half the story. Can they still do the "scoot n shoot" thing?
In bw it was simply hold position
here it is ... what?
You can do it fine, sure, but it doesnt really matter that much, one of the main reasons IMO that it was amazing in brood war was because of the acceleration/decelleration mechanics and the way that your mutas would be split like the entire screens distance if you let them get out of sync, or some stopped moving to fire at a target while others still flew to try and get into range, etc, sc2 units tend to have much less acceleration time and control in a much more fluid manner i think
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5DVnz.png)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fSK5b.jpg)
