EPTBut let say you take a drone who mined 400 mineral total in this game, and build a evo, well you gained 275 mineral by creating an evo? no.
You dont, and cant, count this way, sorry.
[D] Blocking Nexus with a Hatch or Evo Chamber - Page 2
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Tikan
France42 Posts
But let say you take a drone who mined 400 mineral total in this game, and build a evo, well you gained 275 mineral by creating an evo? no. You dont, and cant, count this way, sorry. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On March 03 2012 23:38 Tikan wrote: Stop saying that please it sound retard. Did you ever say "oh a barrack cost 150 + mineral scv would have harvest if he wasnt building"? Or do a gateway cost in fact 160-170 cuz of probe travel time? nop. Drone cost 50 , Evo cost 75, and thats it t_t. More on subject, as a protoss player, an hatch/evo block can be very disturbing if, as DrTZ said, forge is late (you owned his attempt to nexus first/ he went for a 15 forge (maybe 14)) ; but, in my opinion, its a waste of money for zerg to try so if the forge already popped out or is about too, cause P will put his usual cannon anyways and use this delay to advance in tech/army, wich will cause an earlier/stronger push to defend if you then go for 3 hatch, or even a faster tech harass (stargate/dts/wp). So I wouldnt do if forge is completed or about to, but definitively in any other case. you forgot to say the cost of hatch cancel . so ye it costs more then only 125 minerals . | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On March 03 2012 23:49 Tikan wrote: Seriously thats why I wont discuss this subject, dont wanna change people train of toughts anyways. But let say you take a drone who mined 400 mineral total in this game, and build a evo, well you gained 275 mineral by creating an evo? no. You dont, and cant, count this way, sorry. well if you take a drone that mined 400 or 2000 minerals and build a evo chamber with it, you still lose 75 minerals and 50 for the drone itself, + the future mining time. I don't see what's wrong with that. The only "tricky" thing is that when you mention the future mining time, you have to be aware that it's not only money, but money spread in the future. It's not the same thing to say that you just spent 100 minerals right now, and that you will not gain 100 minerals spread over the next 2 minuts in the game. But that doesn't mean this is not a loss either, it's just a loss spread in time. Cause otherwise you would end up thinking that losing a drone will make you lose an infinite amount of money (supposing the game never ends and your drone never ends mining, which is here a useful fiction for the reasoning), whereas it's an infinite amount of money, but spread over an infinite amount of time. On a finite period, you lose a finite amount of resources. But you can't neglect futur mining times in your thinking, it's a key element when you target your opponent's drones, or your opponent expands. Why denying expands if not because it makes your opponent lose money (in comparison to what he could have got from it running)? | ||
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sonkaliniz
United States178 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On March 04 2012 00:12 Meovin- wrote: Yes this is definitely worth it. I played a game where the zerg let the hatchery finish, his third was up before my nexus was finished. I wonder what the right response is to the zerg who lets the hatchery finish and trys to lay creep in your natural. Is the only valid response a 1base allin? Just kill the creep tumor with a zealot or probes. Or surround the queen as soon as it finishes so it can't even lay the tumor. | ||
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sonkaliniz
United States178 Posts
On March 04 2012 00:21 vOdToasT wrote: Just kill the creep tumor with a zealot or probes. Or surround the queen as soon as it finishes so it can't even lay the tumor. So the response is to not let it happen. Even without the creep tumor, your nexus will be incredibly delayed | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
On March 04 2012 00:33 kcdc wrote: I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer. If you think you have time, you can dump another 150 minerals into a queen for a creep tumor, and if you get a creep tumor down, it's pretty much gg. Unlike Z, P can't just expand to a different location and really needs to take the natural in a timely fashion in order to stay even in the game. yes but what about a +1 attack 4 gate from toss? I guess this would be my worry in such situation, cause zerg just spent a lot of money to prevent protoss from expanding. this would be even more annoying if zerg expand at third because of some pylon block, wouldn't it? do you guys think it's easy to defend a 4 gate with maybe some +1 upgrade from toss, after hatch block or not? has anyone tested it? thanks  | ||
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TechSc2
Netherlands554 Posts
On March 04 2012 00:38 Macpo wrote: yes but what about a +1 attack 4 gate from toss? I guess this would be my worry in such situation, cause zerg just spent a lot of money to prevent protoss from expanding. this would be even more annoying if zerg expand at third because of some pylon block, wouldn't it? do you guys think it's easy to defend a 4 gate with maybe some +1 upgrade from toss, after hatch block or not? has anyone tested it? thanks The +1 zealot attack will come much earlier then after a normal FFE, last time someone blocked me i got my first warp in at around 7:15 and hit his morphing third and forced a cancel, either you don't expand to a third till you got more zerglings/roaches out, or you simply loose the hatch. If you spend that much early on on zerglings/roaches ( roach warren/speed sooner etc.. ) you can't expand to a third. which basicaly means you won't be a base up till around the 8-9 minute mark. So letting a hatch finish requires a complete BO change from the zerg, which in most cases he doesn't do because he just thinks in terms of FFE, but in fact it is a 1 base expo build | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On March 04 2012 01:42 TechSc2 wrote: The +1 zealot attack will come much earlier then after a normal FFE, last time someone blocked me i got my first warp in at around 7:15 and hit his morphing third and forced a cancel, either you don't expand to a third till you got more zerglings/roaches out, or you simply loose the hatch. If you spend that much early on on zerglings/roaches ( roach warren/speed sooner etc.. ) you can't expand to a third. which basicaly means you won't be a base up till around the 8-9 minute mark. So letting a hatch finish requires a complete BO change from the zerg, which in most cases he doesn't do because he just thinks in terms of FFE, but in fact it is a 1 base expo build well I wouldn't take a third after having blocked protoss' natural, I would stick to 2 bases vs 1 base, and play it like against a 3 gate expand, with the difference that his expand will take longer because of the hatch. my question was more : can i defend my 2 bases against his potential 4 gate with forge upgrades ? | ||
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xUnSeEnx
United States183 Posts
I just feel like something done that early in the game is not smart but, maybe later to block the 3rd if you wanted to do so. | ||
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sonkaliniz
United States178 Posts
On March 04 2012 02:18 xUnSeEnx wrote: A smart toss would just 4-gate all-in the zerg or 3 gate stargate and just win the game, too many minerals were invested in doing something fancy that would ultimately put you significantly behind. that is roughly 5 drones that were wasted to do something sorta cute. (200 minerals = 4 + 1 drone to build the evo and hatch) I just feel like something done that early in the game is not smart but, maybe later to block the 3rd if you wanted to do so. You forget that the protoss also invests in a forge and a cannon or two. And the most important thing is that warpgate will be very late | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On March 04 2012 00:33 kcdc wrote: I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer. +1 But you have to be careful. As a toss, if I see I'm so much behind in eco, I'll immediately transition to the immortals + sentries all-in build on 1 base. It's hard enough to hold it as Z when you're on standard 2 bases, but if you invest 150 into this evo chamber, and additionally you take a fast third.. I just don't see how you can hold the all-in. | ||
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
2gate zealot pressure seems to work okay simply because there's absolutely no way they can take a 3rd at the very least. | ||
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RespectedPuddle
80 Posts
On March 03 2012 23:38 Tikan wrote: Stop saying that please it sound retard. Did you ever say "oh a barrack cost 150 + mineral scv would have harvest if he wasnt building"? Or do a gateway cost in fact 160-170 cuz of probe travel time? nop. Drone cost 50 , Evo cost 75, and thats it t_t. More on subject, as a protoss player, an hatch/evo block can be very disturbing if, as DrTZ said, forge is late (you owned his attempt to nexus first/ he went for a 15 forge (maybe 14)) ; but, in my opinion, its a waste of money for zerg to try so if the forge already popped out or is about too, cause P will put his usual cannon anyways and use this delay to advance in tech/army, wich will cause an earlier/stronger push to defend if you then go for 3 hatch, or even a faster tech harass (stargate/dts/wp). So I wouldnt do if forge is completed or about to, but definitively in any other case. If you say out loud in a French accent what Tikan wrote it sounds extremely funny On another note, as diamond toss, evo chamber in your nat is a big bummer, mostly because it forces you down a path that the zerg can easily defend. | ||
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ETisME
12399 Posts
On March 04 2012 00:33 kcdc wrote: I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer. If you think you have time, you can dump another 150 minerals into a queen for a creep tumor, and if you get a creep tumor down, it's pretty much gg. Unlike Z, P can't just expand to a different location and really needs to take the natural in a timely fashion in order to stay even in the game. yup, I think it is totally worth it as you might have enough time to build a creep tumor if he didn't respond correctly. At least it will mess up toss's build order and not a lot of toss up to diamond knows how to transition out of it | ||
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
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ETisME
12399 Posts
On March 04 2012 10:02 Dariusz wrote: I just get 2 cannons at my wall that are still in range of evo/hatch and still get my expo faster than zerg if i pylon block it. Waste of resources and effort from Z. Just 2 cannons and you're never gonna get queen out and evo chamber dies faster than your block to zerglings. that's not true. Zerg can always expand to the 3rd location, DRG even would take the 3rd just because there is a probe block Forcing early 2 cannons before the nexus is quite ideal too, since it's not like the cannons will be achieve much after the hatch dies in the short term | ||
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
On March 04 2012 10:27 ETisME wrote: that's not true. Zerg can always expand to the 3rd location, DRG even would take the 3rd just because there is a probe block Forcing early 2 cannons before the nexus is quite ideal too, since it's not like the cannons will be achieve much after the hatch dies in the short term Zerg block cost as much as this one additional cannon for protoss and if he let's hatch finish and takes third then he's TRIPLE expanding vs potential 4 gate. | ||
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