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When playing against Protoss, everytime I see a Pylon in P's natural I recently have started to block the nexus with an Evolution Chamber - I scout at 10, drone till 14, place down a Hatchery in Protoss'es natural and immediately cancel it and place Evolution Chamber on the creep that remains after hatch cancel.
The cost is 75 for canceling the hatch + 75 evo cost which is 150 minerals + drone.
Now my questions are
- is it worth it?
- how Protoss should react?
I was talking with my friend after our game (replay here) where I blocked his Nexus first, he sent down 9 Probes in total, forced me to cancel my evo at the last second and placed delayed nexus and AFTER that he started his forge and gate.
I delyed him so much that my lings that came from 14 pool killed both of his warping cannons and several probes.
He says blocking Prototss is not worth it because he can just tech faster thanks to faster Gate and he sends down probes because he saw oGsVINES do this on his stream.
My reply to that is if teching faster was desired by Protoss than they wouldn't go Nexus before Forge and also sending down Probes means wasting more money than placing additional Cannon (for the number of 2) to kill the evo. His Probes didn't gather minerals from 2:15 till 3:07 and even then not all of them came back because he sent some after my drone.
So let's say it takes about 50 seconds to kill the evo (or force zerg to cancel it) with 9 Probes. If I'm not mistaken workers gather minerals at a rate about 1 mineral / second.
50 x 9 is 450 O_O lol. I have to be wrong? It's that much?
Anyway in my opinion it's much cheaper to warp in additional cannon to kill the evo.
I think that if Protoss can block with a Pylon for 100 minerals then it's worth to block him for 150 minerals - later nexus means several probes and a chronoboost less.
I want to also touch briefly on the recent (ASUS ROG tournament?) game where Mana got his Forge blocked by a drone by accident and hatch was placed down in his natural. I forgot who was his opponent but he also made a Queen and a Creep Tumor to further delay Mana.
I think it's not worth it to block with a hatch because even though I can make that Queen in time even when 2 cannons are firing at hatch then the 1st zealot kills the creep tumor before it can morph. Mana just made a huge, huge blunder in his game.
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I see machine do this all the time on his stream. I would say worth it as long as you're able to cancel. In machine vs TT1 machine was able to have his third started by the time TT1 finally got his natural down.
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I ALWAYS patrol probe in my nat that one whos building gate/cannons and stuff. I once did this long time ago to some protoss for lols and it worked pretty cool. Tried hat and evo versions (prefer evo). However I wonder if it's possible to block nexus even with probe patrolling, haven't seen anyone really do this to me yet?
To original question I dont see any reason to block with hatchery when evo does the same thing but for so much cheaper.
e: You can block it as long as possible with drone too if you got there in time for some reason.
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The replay included is BLUNDER from my side (yea im the protoss), oGsVINES does use probes to attack HATCHERY, not evo chamber, im pretty much sure that toss reaction for this is just wait for ONE cannon (im not doing 2 cannons EVER vs this) and he has.. a little bit delayed hatchery. With saved minerals i can both cannon zerg's neutral or just as author said tech faster - gate, double gas, cyber, then nexus.
I think zerg is falling way more behind after such exchange in protoss's neutral than his opponent.
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On March 03 2012 14:51 Ryndika wrote:
To original question I dont see any reason to block with hatchery when evo does the same thing but for so much cheaper.
Actually you need to build hatchery first to get creep, so u can place the evo chamber 
In case ure talking about just letting hatchery finish.. well, the creep spread is huge wit hhatchery, so it delays toss nexus even further, coz he has to wait until creep is gone
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I usually patrol a probe to prevent nexus blocking but ive seen vines (i think) take it down with a 8 probe pull and i think it could be worth doing but it's probably a situational thing.
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Its not worth it for Zerg to hatch evo block IMO. It costs 75 mins to cancel the hatch, and 125 mins for the evo (75 + a drone). Toss doesn't depend on the early probes as much as Zerg depends on the early drones, also toss blocks our hatch for 100 minerals, 25 if they cancel the pylon, its not in the same ballpark cost wise this early in the game.
If your build calls for a drone scout you can delay the nexus with drone patrol, but even then thats only going to be 8-10 seconds or so.
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IDK.... I've been doing this on and off the past few days, and I think it might be worth it just to completely mess up the protoss' build. If his plan is to go forge-nexus or forge-cannon-nexus, you've delayed him hugely economically, and forced him down a tech path that relies less on gas (since his natural exp gases are not going to be available for as long).
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On March 03 2012 14:48 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
I see machine do this all the time on his stream. I would say worth it as long as you're able to cancel. In machine vs TT1 machine was able to have his third started by the time TT1 finally got his natural down.
haha machine did this to me the other day.
he let the hatch finish though which i'm not sure is worth it. as long as they don't get an evo up i don't think it's very good. if they get an evo up after hatch cancel ( as in you don't block it with a probe fast enough ) then toss is really far behind
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On March 03 2012 15:38 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 14:48 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
I see machine do this all the time on his stream. I would say worth it as long as you're able to cancel. In machine vs TT1 machine was able to have his third started by the time TT1 finally got his natural down. haha machine did this to me the other day. he let the hatch finish though which i'm not sure is worth it. as long as they don't get an evo up i don't think it's very good. if they get an evo up after hatch cancel ( as in you don't block it with a probe fast enough ) then toss is really far behind
Do you know if the hatchery has to be there for a certain amount of time before there's enough creep to make an evo chamber on? Or is it instant creep?
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Its instant creep. I've done the leenock hatch first with Queen and tumor and its strong.
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its instant, I remember reading a thread a while ago about canceling a hatch in a tosses base and building an evo and targetting a probe or something down with the broodlings.
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On March 03 2012 15:38 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 14:48 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
I see machine do this all the time on his stream. I would say worth it as long as you're able to cancel. In machine vs TT1 machine was able to have his third started by the time TT1 finally got his natural down. haha machine did this to me the other day. he let the hatch finish though which i'm not sure is worth it. as long as they don't get an evo up i don't think it's very good. if they get an evo up after hatch cancel ( as in you don't block it with a probe fast enough ) then toss is really far behind
It's worth it to let the hatchery finish if you're able to make a queen and plant a creep tumor out of detection range, it delays expo sooo much!
I don't think evo cancel is worth it, maybe on maps with a hard to get 3rd. Otherwise just grab it instead.
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if he does not have a canon building, I absolutly love doing it, just to screw with him.
If he does not have a pylon in range (rare but possible on some maps like antiga wall at the ramp), do it, let the hatch finish, build a queen, make that creep tumor, win 
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People don't realise how good this actually is...
8 probes for 90 seconds is 480 minerals lost mining for the protoss.
Furthermore, you have restricted him to 1 probe per production cycle (which then are not mining since they didn't get made) and halved his chronoboost output for the 1-2 minutes of the delay, and he very often has banked up several hundred minerals by the time you place the block, which he must belatedly spend on tech - essentially making his macro 'bad' for a minute or two, all which does further tangible, if hard to estimate, economic damage.
I think you could conservatively guess it at around 600-700 minerals of damage, assuming he spends his first chronos from Nexus 2 on probes.
Of course, if he chooses to NOT pull probes, it costs him nothing up-front, since the cannon is being made anyway. In this case however, his build has been completely changed. Instead of doing a fast-expand, protoss has been forced into opening 1-base w/ cannons (which is just a bad build), after doing bad macro for a minute. Z has 'forced' a certain opening blind which he can now prepare for.
This is aside from the psychological value of putting someones build and timings off - a HUGE factor at the lower leagues, and still relevant into Masters, and the bonus of scouting his activities (which are basically his responses to your block) for a decent period.
Knowing this, I feel it is totally worth it since:
1) The zerg's scouting probe won't return to mine for a long time anyway, and sometimes doesn't even survive. So this damage is not relevant to an analysis.
2) The cost of the drone leaving at 10 instead of 13 or so is about 40-60 minerals. The cancel cost is 75. The Evo chamber is 75. The drone's cost is 50. So it costs the Zerg no more than 260 or ~200 if the drone's death isn't counted.
3) The zerg is banking minerals for an FE anyway, but does not require the additional larvae output of his natural to attain main saturation, so this just delays what he was doing slightly, without changing the order of his build or doing knock-on eco damage (zerg's drone count will not change as he does not produce drones in a serial fashion and can't afford to use 2 queens worth of injects on drones initally anyway).
4) You have the option of doing an aggressive hatch block with creep / queen instead and opening up opportunity for an all-in.
5) Great psychological evener if the P has cannoned or pylon blocked your natural.
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This has happened to me before so now I keep a probe ontop of my nat to try and avoid this, but if you can do it I think its worth it because if the protoss has come into the game trying to do some kind of 2 base all in (which most do atm) it will delay the timing a fair bit rendering it less effective and easier to defend for the zerg.
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The evo chamber is definitely worth it especially if the protoss put his forge kinda late
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well i think the evo works, but its easily blockable with 2 probes, the hatch if not canceled asap is probably to much of an investment. Getting it up fully just for some larva behind the wall feels not worth it, only on a mindgame level.
Personally i switch to a one base tech push if the map doesn't allow me to expand at another spot, if they let the hatch stay for to long. Can always expand later, after i killed their main.
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125 mins for the evo (75 + a drone)
Stop saying that please it sound retard. Did you ever say "oh a barrack cost 150 + mineral scv would have harvest if he wasnt building"? Or do a gateway cost in fact 160-170 cuz of probe travel time? nop. Drone cost 50 , Evo cost 75, and thats it t_t.
More on subject, as a protoss player, an hatch/evo block can be very disturbing if, as DrTZ said, forge is late (you owned his attempt to nexus first/ he went for a 15 forge (maybe 14)) ; but, in my opinion, its a waste of money for zerg to try so if the forge already popped out or is about too, cause P will put his usual cannon anyways and use this delay to advance in tech/army, wich will cause an earlier/stronger push to defend if you then go for 3 hatch, or even a faster tech harass (stargate/dts/wp).
So I wouldnt do if forge is completed or about to, but definitively in any other case.
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On March 03 2012 23:38 Tikan wrote:Stop saying that please it sound retard. Did you ever say "oh a barrack cost 150 + mineral scv would have harvest if he wasnt building"? Or do a gateway cost in fact 160-170 cuz of probe travel time? nop. Drone cost 50 , Evo cost 75, and thats it t_t. More on subject, as a protoss player, an hatch/evo block can be very disturbing if, as DrTZ said, forge is late (you owned his attempt to nexus first/ he went for a 15 forge (maybe 14)) ; but, in my opinion, its a waste of money for zerg to try so if the forge already popped out or is about too, cause P will put his usual cannon anyways and use this delay to advance in tech/army, wich will cause an earlier/stronger push to defend if you then go for 3 hatch, or even a faster tech harass (stargate/dts/wp). So I wouldnt do if forge is completed or about to, but definitively in any other case.
What are you talking about? You lose the drone for the rest of the game, the SCV or probe simply returns... and yes, you CAN find calculations how much mining is lost by an SCV building a rax instead of mining, it's just too insignificant to matter... losing a whole drone though, that snowballs quite quickly.
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On March 03 2012 23:38 Tikan wrote:Stop saying that please it sound retard. Did you ever say "oh a barrack cost 150 + mineral scv would have harvest if he wasnt building"? Or do a gateway cost in fact 160-170 cuz of probe travel time? nop. Drone cost 50 , Evo cost 75, and thats it t_t. More on subject, as a protoss player, an hatch/evo block can be very disturbing if, as DrTZ said, forge is late (you owned his attempt to nexus first/ he went for a 15 forge (maybe 14)) ; but, in my opinion, its a waste of money for zerg to try so if the forge already popped out or is about too, cause P will put his usual cannon anyways and use this delay to advance in tech/army, wich will cause an earlier/stronger push to defend if you then go for 3 hatch, or even a faster tech harass (stargate/dts/wp). So I wouldnt do if forge is completed or about to, but definitively in any other case.
Well for the purposes of counting resources it's as if you invested 125 (75 + one drone). Don't see what's wrong with that.
That's like saying archons don't cost any resources. Technically true but practically unhelpful.
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Seriously thats why I wont discuss this subject, dont wanna change people train of toughts anyways.
But let say you take a drone who mined 400 mineral total in this game, and build a evo, well you gained 275 mineral by creating an evo? no.
You dont, and cant, count this way, sorry.
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On March 03 2012 23:38 Tikan wrote:Stop saying that please it sound retard. Did you ever say "oh a barrack cost 150 + mineral scv would have harvest if he wasnt building"? Or do a gateway cost in fact 160-170 cuz of probe travel time? nop. Drone cost 50 , Evo cost 75, and thats it t_t. More on subject, as a protoss player, an hatch/evo block can be very disturbing if, as DrTZ said, forge is late (you owned his attempt to nexus first/ he went for a 15 forge (maybe 14)) ; but, in my opinion, its a waste of money for zerg to try so if the forge already popped out or is about too, cause P will put his usual cannon anyways and use this delay to advance in tech/army, wich will cause an earlier/stronger push to defend if you then go for 3 hatch, or even a faster tech harass (stargate/dts/wp). So I wouldnt do if forge is completed or about to, but definitively in any other case.
you forgot to say the cost of hatch cancel . so ye it costs more then only 125 minerals .
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On March 03 2012 23:49 Tikan wrote:
Seriously thats why I wont discuss this subject, dont wanna change people train of toughts anyways.
But let say you take a drone who mined 400 mineral total in this game, and build a evo, well you gained 275 mineral by creating an evo? no.
You dont, and cant, count this way, sorry.
well if you take a drone that mined 400 or 2000 minerals and build a evo chamber with it, you still lose 75 minerals and 50 for the drone itself, + the future mining time. I don't see what's wrong with that.
The only "tricky" thing is that when you mention the future mining time, you have to be aware that it's not only money, but money spread in the future.
It's not the same thing to say that you just spent 100 minerals right now, and that you will not gain 100 minerals spread over the next 2 minuts in the game. But that doesn't mean this is not a loss either, it's just a loss spread in time.
Cause otherwise you would end up thinking that losing a drone will make you lose an infinite amount of money (supposing the game never ends and your drone never ends mining, which is here a useful fiction for the reasoning), whereas it's an infinite amount of money, but spread over an infinite amount of time.
On a finite period, you lose a finite amount of resources.
But you can't neglect futur mining times in your thinking, it's a key element when you target your opponent's drones, or your opponent expands. Why denying expands if not because it makes your opponent lose money (in comparison to what he could have got from it running)?
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Yes this is definitely worth it. I played a game where the zerg let the hatchery finish, his third was up before my nexus was finished. I wonder what the right response is to the zerg who lets the hatchery finish and trys to lay creep in your natural. Is the only valid response a 1base allin?
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On March 04 2012 00:12 Meovin- wrote:
Yes this is definitely worth it. I played a game where the zerg let the hatchery finish, his third was up before my nexus was finished. I wonder what the right response is to the zerg who lets the hatchery finish and trys to lay creep in your natural. Is the only valid response a 1base allin?
Just kill the creep tumor with a zealot or probes. Or surround the queen as soon as it finishes so it can't even lay the tumor.
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On March 04 2012 00:21 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:12 Meovin- wrote:
Yes this is definitely worth it. I played a game where the zerg let the hatchery finish, his third was up before my nexus was finished. I wonder what the right response is to the zerg who lets the hatchery finish and trys to lay creep in your natural. Is the only valid response a 1base allin? Just kill the creep tumor with a zealot or probes. Or surround the queen as soon as it finishes so it can't even lay the tumor.
So the response is to not let it happen. Even without the creep tumor, your nexus will be incredibly delayed
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I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer. If you think you have time, you can dump another 150 minerals into a queen for a creep tumor, and if you get a creep tumor down, it's pretty much gg. Unlike Z, P can't just expand to a different location and really needs to take the natural in a timely fashion in order to stay even in the game.
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On March 04 2012 00:33 kcdc wrote:
I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer. If you think you have time, you can dump another 150 minerals into a queen for a creep tumor, and if you get a creep tumor down, it's pretty much gg. Unlike Z, P can't just expand to a different location and really needs to take the natural in a timely fashion in order to stay even in the game.
yes but what about a +1 attack 4 gate from toss? I guess this would be my worry in such situation, cause zerg just spent a lot of money to prevent protoss from expanding. this would be even more annoying if zerg expand at third because of some pylon block, wouldn't it?
do you guys think it's easy to defend a 4 gate with maybe some +1 upgrade from toss, after hatch block or not? has anyone tested it?
thanks
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On March 04 2012 00:38 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:33 kcdc wrote:
I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer. If you think you have time, you can dump another 150 minerals into a queen for a creep tumor, and if you get a creep tumor down, it's pretty much gg. Unlike Z, P can't just expand to a different location and really needs to take the natural in a timely fashion in order to stay even in the game. yes but what about a +1 attack 4 gate from toss? I guess this would be my worry in such situation, cause zerg just spent a lot of money to prevent protoss from expanding. this would be even more annoying if zerg expand at third because of some pylon block, wouldn't it? do you guys think it's easy to defend a 4 gate with maybe some +1 upgrade from toss, after hatch block or not? has anyone tested it? thanks
The +1 zealot attack will come much earlier then after a normal FFE, last time someone blocked me i got my first warp in at around 7:15 and hit his morphing third and forced a cancel, either you don't expand to a third till you got more zerglings/roaches out, or you simply loose the hatch.
If you spend that much early on on zerglings/roaches ( roach warren/speed sooner etc.. ) you can't expand to a third. which basicaly means you won't be a base up till around the 8-9 minute mark. So letting a hatch finish requires a complete BO change from the zerg, which in most cases he doesn't do because he just thinks in terms of FFE, but in fact it is a 1 base expo build
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On March 04 2012 01:42 TechSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 00:38 Macpo wrote:On March 04 2012 00:33 kcdc wrote:
I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer. If you think you have time, you can dump another 150 minerals into a queen for a creep tumor, and if you get a creep tumor down, it's pretty much gg. Unlike Z, P can't just expand to a different location and really needs to take the natural in a timely fashion in order to stay even in the game. yes but what about a +1 attack 4 gate from toss? I guess this would be my worry in such situation, cause zerg just spent a lot of money to prevent protoss from expanding. this would be even more annoying if zerg expand at third because of some pylon block, wouldn't it? do you guys think it's easy to defend a 4 gate with maybe some +1 upgrade from toss, after hatch block or not? has anyone tested it? thanks The +1 zealot attack will come much earlier then after a normal FFE, last time someone blocked me i got my first warp in at around 7:15 and hit his morphing third and forced a cancel, either you don't expand to a third till you got more zerglings/roaches out, or you simply loose the hatch. If you spend that much early on on zerglings/roaches ( roach warren/speed sooner etc.. ) you can't expand to a third. which basicaly means you won't be a base up till around the 8-9 minute mark. So letting a hatch finish requires a complete BO change from the zerg, which in most cases he doesn't do because he just thinks in terms of FFE, but in fact it is a 1 base expo build
well I wouldn't take a third after having blocked protoss' natural, I would stick to 2 bases vs 1 base, and play it like against a 3 gate expand, with the difference that his expand will take longer because of the hatch. my question was more : can i defend my 2 bases against his potential 4 gate with forge upgrades ?
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A smart toss would just 4-gate all-in the zerg or 3 gate stargate and just win the game, too many minerals were invested in doing something fancy that would ultimately put you significantly behind. that is roughly 5 drones that were wasted to do something sorta cute. (200 minerals = 4 + 1 drone to build the evo and hatch)
I just feel like something done that early in the game is not smart but, maybe later to block the 3rd if you wanted to do so.
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On March 04 2012 02:18 xUnSeEnx wrote:
A smart toss would just 4-gate all-in the zerg or 3 gate stargate and just win the game, too many minerals were invested in doing something fancy that would ultimately put you significantly behind. that is roughly 5 drones that were wasted to do something sorta cute. (200 minerals = 4 + 1 drone to build the evo and hatch)
I just feel like something done that early in the game is not smart but, maybe later to block the 3rd if you wanted to do so.
You forget that the protoss also invests in a forge and a cannon or two. And the most important thing is that warpgate will be very late
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On March 04 2012 00:33 kcdc wrote:
I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer.
+1
But you have to be careful. As a toss, if I see I'm so much behind in eco, I'll immediately transition to the immortals + sentries all-in build on 1 base. It's hard enough to hold it as Z when you're on standard 2 bases, but if you invest 150 into this evo chamber, and additionally you take a fast third.. I just don't see how you can hold the all-in.
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I'm always curious about this. Hatch cancel is a little less scary as you can just get gateway and tech up quicker so you hit Z with earlier WG. Hatch finishing sucks more because the creep delays you even longer. Twice in the last couple days people have gotten queens out. You have to pull probes before she pops and then snipe the creep tumor. It's also important to try to snipe larvae with the cannon as getting probes to kill the tumor with lings out is trickier.
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IDK how the math works out, but it seems annoying as hell from a protoss perspective and I've started putting a probe on hold position at my nat immediately after starting my 13 forge every single game solely to prevent it. What's the consensus on what the best thing to do is if they do manage to hatchery/evo block your natural? If you're on an un-wallable map where you can't do a standard 3 gate tech.
2gate zealot pressure seems to work okay simply because there's absolutely no way they can take a 3rd at the very least.
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On March 03 2012 23:38 Tikan wrote:Stop saying that please it sound retard. Did you ever say "oh a barrack cost 150 + mineral scv would have harvest if he wasnt building"? Or do a gateway cost in fact 160-170 cuz of probe travel time? nop. Drone cost 50 , Evo cost 75, and thats it t_t. More on subject, as a protoss player, an hatch/evo block can be very disturbing if, as DrTZ said, forge is late (you owned his attempt to nexus first/ he went for a 15 forge (maybe 14)) ; but, in my opinion, its a waste of money for zerg to try so if the forge already popped out or is about too, cause P will put his usual cannon anyways and use this delay to advance in tech/army, wich will cause an earlier/stronger push to defend if you then go for 3 hatch, or even a faster tech harass (stargate/dts/wp). So I wouldnt do if forge is completed or about to, but definitively in any other case.
If you say out loud in a French accent what Tikan wrote it sounds extremely funny
On another note, as diamond toss, evo chamber in your nat is a big bummer, mostly because it forces you down a path that the zerg can easily defend.
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On March 04 2012 00:33 kcdc wrote:
I think letting the hatch finish is better than canceling and building an evo chamber. For an extra 150 minerals, you get creep spread which delays the nexus MUCH longer. If you think you have time, you can dump another 150 minerals into a queen for a creep tumor, and if you get a creep tumor down, it's pretty much gg. Unlike Z, P can't just expand to a different location and really needs to take the natural in a timely fashion in order to stay even in the game.
yup, I think it is totally worth it as you might have enough time to build a creep tumor if he didn't respond correctly.
At least it will mess up toss's build order and not a lot of toss up to diamond knows how to transition out of it
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I just get 2 cannons at my wall that are still in range of evo/hatch and still get my expo faster than zerg if i pylon block it. Waste of resources and effort from Z. Just 2 cannons and you're never gonna get queen out and evo chamber dies faster than your block to zerglings.
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On March 04 2012 10:02 Dariusz wrote:
I just get 2 cannons at my wall that are still in range of evo/hatch and still get my expo faster than zerg if i pylon block it. Waste of resources and effort from Z. Just 2 cannons and you're never gonna get queen out and evo chamber dies faster than your block to zerglings.
that's not true. Zerg can always expand to the 3rd location, DRG even would take the 3rd just because there is a probe block
Forcing early 2 cannons before the nexus is quite ideal too, since it's not like the cannons will be achieve much after the hatch dies in the short term
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On March 04 2012 10:27 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 10:02 Dariusz wrote:
I just get 2 cannons at my wall that are still in range of evo/hatch and still get my expo faster than zerg if i pylon block it. Waste of resources and effort from Z. Just 2 cannons and you're never gonna get queen out and evo chamber dies faster than your block to zerglings. that's not true. Zerg can always expand to the 3rd location, DRG even would take the 3rd just because there is a probe block Forcing early 2 cannons before the nexus is quite ideal too, since it's not like the cannons will be achieve much after the hatch dies in the short term
Zerg block cost as much as this one additional cannon for protoss and if he let's hatch finish and takes third then he's TRIPLE expanding vs potential 4 gate.
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EPT
