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This seems to be the build to do on maps with ramped naturals or naturals with tight chokes such as: Antiga, Shakuras, entombed valley and cloud kingdom, It is less safe on maps such as korhal compound, shattered temple and metalopolis, as there is a small window of weakness in which you need to be able to forcefield your opponent away. On these maps I would reccomend a 3 gate expand or if you think your micro is vastly superiour, MC's 1 gate expand, against a terran that takes gas.
The ladder seems to be full of 2 Rax in this matchup at this moment as terran seem eager to kill or cripple protoss before transition into the very powerful area damage techs. This is a very safe 1 gate expand that can easily shut down or crush aggressive builds such as 1 gate tech lab marauder rush, reactor-techlab 2 rax and 3 rax whilst maintaining the flexibility of getting up a robo in time for safety against banshee, 1-1-1, etc. and all whilst reaping the rewards of an early expand economy. I first saw huk using this several months ago, but there has been a resurgence recently in its use with the large amount of 2 raxes we are now seeing, for this reason I will largely focus this guide on the build’s ability to hold the 2 rax, despite its safety against all other terran openers too.
Note: it is only worth doing this build if you have either scouted a gas or have not been able to get a scout in his base due to a marine killing your probe before being able to poke up the ramp. If you spot a gasless opening, I advise a more economic 1 gate expand such as the huk 20 food expand or a 1 zealot, 1 stalker expand (which is nice for killing off a supply depot and or some marines if they don’t get a bunker up and safer against a 3 rax marine/bunker rush covering an expand).
The engagement (vs the 2 rax army)
A well executed 2 rax will hit the natural with either 1 marauder and 5 marines at 5:55-6:00 with another 2 marines follow by around 6:10 or 9 marines and 2 marauders at 6:30 – 6:45. The most popular safe build (and the next safest perhaps) used to safeguard against this at the moment is MC’s 1 gate expand (with just 1 gas), which when engaging this 2 rax force will typically consist of 1 zealot and 6 stalkers. With good micro, the protoss is usually able to survive this rush, however when a terran brings 2 scvs to build 2 bunkers next to the nexus at the same time, it can be a nightmare to win this fight without allowing the bunkers to complete.
In this safer 2 gas build, you will have forcefields to save you from the earlier option, and a superior composition to save you against the second option. This is a much stronger army vs the 2 rax composition than that of MC's 1 gas build (courtesy of the guardian shield and the ineffectiveness of the marauders vs zealots and sentries).
The weakest time in the build is if he waits to engage with 7 marines and a marauder at around this 6:10 point, you cannot engage that without pulling around 8 probes, however it is better to drop down 3 force fields to keep him away from your natural until you get your warp-ins. Its should be impossible to lose on a map with a ramped natural with this build.
The take home message is that with guardian shield, marauder resistant units, with the safety net of force fields, this build is a whole level safer than any other 1 gate expand.
Build Order
9 pylon (scout on 4 player map)
11 CB nexus
13 gateway (with probe rallied from nexus)--> (then scout on 2 player maps)
13 CB nexus
14 gas
15 CB Nexus
16 pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
(at this time run your probe from the terran base as a marine normally pops out at 3:08, if he is building a 16 depot whilst the marine is training, then he cannot efficiently 2 rax, its wise to start thinking of why else he may want that gas, but don't rule 2 rax out)
19 2nd gas --> saturated at 100% with 3 probes
20 Start WG tech with 1 CB
20 Stalker With 1 CB
22 pylon
24 sentry
After 26 probe, brief probe cut
27 expand and the send the probe to the xel'naga, you may want to check proxy 2nd rax positions with this probe first however, whilst sending the probe that is currently at the xel'naga towards the terran base for scouting
27 sentry
First marauder pops out in a 2 rax at 5 minutes so sacrifice your initial probe (whilst leaving the second scout probe at the xel'naga) to see if he is stupid enough to have rallied it to the front, you will more likely see 5 marines here with no bunker which also a possible indicator of a 2 rax.
29 gateway
29 gateway
Resume probes
30 sentry
32 pylon
34 Robo
Pylon finishes around 6 minute mark, you should be watching out for terran 2 rax army approaching the xel’naga tower that your xel'naga probe is at around this time. The 5 marine and 1 marauder version of t he 2 rax will hit at around 6:00-6:15 map dependant, however your 1 zealot (or stalker) and 3 sentries holds this easily. Terrans from my experience has stopped doing this, as MC's 1 gate expand was able to able to easily hold this, opting for the 2 marauder 9 marine version, which MC's 1 gate struggles to hold. If he has cut corners and done a really dirty and early attack, the nexus in this build finishes at 6:25, you will know by his composition if you will able able to hold this or not, but you can cancel the nexus and still not be behind because I explained, he would have had to really cut corners to do this.
Assuming you see pressure coming your way:-
6:05 forcefield him out/away 6:10 WG tech finishes, 6:20 gates are converted, by 6:25 you will have warped in 2 zealots and a sentry.
Attack! Your army can easily defeat the 2 marauders and 9 marines. You can also chrono all 3 gates and wait for 3 more units for a guaranteed crushing of his army if you dont have to break any building bunkers, but the chronos may be best saved for robo as you transition into the midgame if you are feeling comfortable. Don’t forget to forcefield and use guardian shield!
If you didn’t see pressure at approximately 6:00 then get that observer asap to scout usuals such as:
1-1-1
Cloaked banshee
4 rax stim timing
Fast starport
Ghost academy
Etc.....
and start warping in stalkers in case of fast drop play
I usually favour a fast robo bay for colossus against a terran gas build that didn’t apply early pressure, because you can almost guarantee you will see some pressure in the mid game, creatorprime’s midgame strategy is perhaps a bit too greedy against a terran that went for an early gas.
Additional Thoughts
• At the time the scouting scv leaves your base he will have seen your 2 gas, a chrono on WG and a chrono on the gateway, this may lead him to be scared to 1-1-1 you as this opening at this point looks like voidray cheese, which hard counters it, though he may second guess this as being too obvious.
• This build is slightly less mineral economic than MC’s 1 gate FE, which may mean your transition into midgame slightly slower than MC’s 1 gate FE.
• A gas heavy economy may encourage you to make too many sentries which can be punished by a fast ghost push, it may be worth taking 1 probe off of each gas after you have enough for the initial sentry defence.
• If you crush a 2 rax, it is very easy to add on 2-3 more gates for a 5-6 gate allin to hit their very late and likely poorly defended expansion.
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Replays
Bling vs Polt on ESV Cloud Kingdom - Assembly Winter group H
+ Show Spoiler +Bling Skips the robo, defends the 2 rax with ease and does a 5 gate all in.
Bling vs Polt on Antiga Shipyard - Assembly Winter group H
+ Show Spoiler + Bling forcefields the 2 rax army out till immortal support arrives, drives polt back home and puts on pressure himself, polt holds and a macro game develops.
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Are there any drawbacks as far as you can tell?
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In TvP 2 rax is an outdated opener and only good if you catch the protoss being extremely greedy and not chronoing from his first gate. I believe the only reason Polt did it twice, was because he believed that bling wouldnt expect him to do it (twice). Both games it put Polt far behind and had difficulty dealing with the counter preassure.
2 rax is mainly succesful on small maps with close ramp to ramp distance (which means non of the current ladder maps) or if proxied - assuming the protoss plays the FE safe.
@CrazyF1r3f0x
I´d say that the nexus first or 1 gate expand is complete safe without drawbacks vs Terran on current ladder maps assuming you scout well, poke with the first stalker and have mapcontrol till medivacs+stim is done.
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this is no big deal or anything but:
1. you're missing your 2nd pylon in your build order :p
2. first marines completes closer to 3:08 ^^
3. reactor-techlab can hit closer to 6mins on, say, close air metalopolis. noteworthy imo because you'll be forced to react immediately should he throw down bunkers, but warpgate doesn't complete until 6:10 and in theory your first warp-in completes @6:20 but in practice it will be later.
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On February 28 2012 10:26 Forbidden17 wrote:
this is no big deal or anything but:
1. you're missing your 2nd pylon in your build order :p
2. first marines completes closer to 3:08 ^^
3. reactor-techlab can hit closer to 6mins on, say, close air metalopolis. noteworthy imo because you'll be forced to react immediately should he throw down bunkers, but warpgate doesn't complete until 6:10 and in theory your first warp-in completes @6:20 but in practice it will be later.
thanks, I will update
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On February 28 2012 10:19 yoona2012 wrote:
In TvP 2 rax is an outdated opener and only good if you catch the protoss being extremely greedy and not chronoing from his first gate. I believe the only reason Polt did it twice, was because he believed that bling wouldnt expect him to do it (twice). Both games it put Polt far behind and had difficulty dealing with the counter preassure.
2 rax is mainly succesful on small maps with close ramp to ramp distance (which means non of the current ladder maps) or if proxied - assuming the protoss plays the FE safe.
@CrazyF1r3f0x
I´d say that the nexus first or 1 gate expand is complete safe without drawbacks vs Terran on current ladder maps assuming you scout well, poke with the first stalker and have mapcontrol till medivacs+stim is done.
it's certainly not outdated on ladder, perhaps you were referring to pro level, then I could maybe understand what you are saying.
and more importantly, i state that i only recommend this if you scout gas, there are much greedier builds to play against a gasless expand, the other standard terran opener.
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On February 28 2012 10:43 oli470 wrote:
it's certainly not outdated on ladder, perhaps you were referring to pro level, then I could maybe understand what you are saying.
You can copy and execute the 1 gate or nexus first opening as progamer protoss does it without being pro level yourself (at least the first crucial 6 minutes flawlessly). The current ladder maps have far enough distance from ramp to ramp to make 1 gate or nexus first safe openings. The micro required to place down forcefields to hold it and chrono out from your gate(s) and robo isn´t excactly required to be GM level. In the very worst case, you may have to pull a few probes and accept a couple of probe losses, but you´ll still be ahead vs a 2 rax opening.
The most common TvP openings on ladder are 1 rax expand (into a bunch of different followups) or 1/1/1. 2 rax is outdated and easily scouted unless the 2nd rax is proxied, since the 2nd rax will be put down before the 1st marine pops. You can´t even wall off with 2nd depot to deny scouting when going 2 rax preassure expand, because the 2nd depot timing will delay your 2nd rax too much.
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i still think stopping production after zealot stalker (at 24/26 food) getting the nexus then adding 2 gates, the 3rd pylon, and finally the 2nd gas and 1st sentry is the best way to 1gate fe vs a 2 rax. What ends up happening is WG finishes at 6:10 not 6:20 and the nexus finishes at the same time as well so you can use 6-8 probes while transferring to fight with you.
Also timing works such that you have 1 zeal 1 stalker 2 sentry then the exact amount of money for 3 more stalkers + a few probes by 6:10. I practiced it a bunch of times and it seems by far the best vs a 2 rax but falls behind vs a gasless. Benefit is though you can choose to not warp in the 3 stalkers if there is no pressure and you can abandon ship if you SEE a CC. just seeing gasless isnt enough imo since terran can easy just throw 3 more rax and hit around same time as 2rax.
there is a 12/14 rax one tech lab timing that this either of these builds cannot hold.
i just dont see how 1 zeal 4 sentries and 1 stalker is better than 1 zeal 2 sentries and 4 stalkers. with good micro the terran can destroy you but with more stalkers the micro is far more forgiving
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On February 28 2012 10:54 yoona2012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:43 oli470 wrote:
it's certainly not outdated on ladder, perhaps you were referring to pro level, then I could maybe understand what you are saying. You can copy and execute the 1 gate or nexus first opening as progamer protoss does it without being pro level yourself (at least the first crucial 6 minutes flawlessly). The current ladder maps have far enough distance from ramp to ramp to make 1 gate or nexus first safe openings. The micro required to place down forcefields to hold it and chrono out from your gate(s) and robo isn´t excactly required to be GM level. In the very worst case, you may have to pull a few probes and accept a couple of probe losses, but you´ll still be ahead vs a 2 rax opening. The most common TvP openings on ladder are 1 rax expand (into a bunch of different followups) or 1/1/1. 2 rax is outdated and easily scouted unless the 2nd rax is proxied, since the 2nd rax will be put down before the 1st marine pops. You can´t even wall off with 2nd depot to deny scouting when going 2 rax preassure expand, because the 2nd depot timing will delay your 2nd rax too much.
ill say it again, dont do this build vs a gasless terran 1 rax expand, do something greedier of course. If you scout gas, its probably gonna be 1-1-1 or 2 rax (and from my experience and other protoss' experiences that i've talked to recently, 2 rax is far more common than 1-1-1 on ladder right now). This build holds both 1-1-1 and 2rax, just holds one of them better than any other FE build does, so i don't see your problem.
and besides that, you've said twice now that the protoss should do a 1 gate expand as standard, did you even read anything I wrote? This IS a 1 gate expand, except with a 2nd gas, in fact because the sentries are cheaper in minerals than stalkers, you are able to expand at 27 supply, so this is even a reasonably economical 1 gate expand.
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On February 28 2012 11:04 drybones wrote:there is a 12/14 rax one tech lab timing that this either of these builds cannot hold.
Do you have a replay of that?
12 rax, 14 rax with tech lab means 13 gas. 12 rax, 13 gas, 14 rax means either cutting scvs or delaying your orbital upgrade for a 20 second faster marauder pop (vs the 12 rax, 13 gas, 15 orbital, 16 rax) while the marines still pop at standard timing. It doesn´t make sense to me, but I would be interested in seeing it in action.
Pure theorycrafting, I believe 1 gate expand should deal with this easily however, it´s fine to let your nexus take a few shots while wait for another round of chrono to get out - afterall losing shield means nothing as long as you dont take hull dmg. This may however be a different story if there´s scv pulls and bunkers combined with this.
Again, any replays would be great (preferably executed at master+ level)
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On February 28 2012 10:19 yoona2012 wrote:
In TvP 2 rax is an outdated opener and only good if you catch the protoss being extremely greedy and not chronoing from his first gate. I believe the only reason Polt did it twice, was because he believed that bling wouldnt expect him to do it (twice). Both games it put Polt far behind and had difficulty dealing with the counter preassure.
2 rax is mainly succesful on small maps with close ramp to ramp distance (which means non of the current ladder maps) or if proxied - assuming the protoss plays the FE safe.
@CrazyF1r3f0x
I´d say that the nexus first or 1 gate expand is complete safe without drawbacks vs Terran on current ladder maps assuming you scout well, poke with the first stalker and have mapcontrol till medivacs+stim is done.
The outdated version is when Terrans would put on light pressure and expand quickly. In the current 2 rax, Terrans keep reinforcing and put down a CC when they can, tech to starport, and get a nice upgraded bio force before any big tech units are out. Watch day9's MarineKing v. Whitera episode to get what I'm talking about.
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On February 28 2012 10:19 yoona2012 wrote:
In TvP 2 rax is an outdated opener and only good if you catch the protoss being extremely greedy and not chronoing from his first gate. I believe the only reason Polt did it twice, was because he believed that bling wouldnt expect him to do it (twice). Both games it put Polt far behind and had difficulty dealing with the counter preassure.
2 rax is mainly succesful on small maps with close ramp to ramp distance (which means non of the current ladder maps) or if proxied - assuming the protoss plays the FE safe.
@CrazyF1r3f0x
I´d say that the nexus first or 1 gate expand is complete safe without drawbacks vs Terran on current ladder maps assuming you scout well, poke with the first stalker and have mapcontrol till medivacs+stim is done.
I don't agree with this statement at all. If you blindly push with 2-rax and do not adapt to what you see it will certainly put you behind but you can come out even or ahead with just about any protoss build. 2-rax is NOT designed to kill a protoss outright, it can, but it doesn't need to. The goal behind it is to consistently trade your units for his gas heavy units while you are getting your tech infrastructure up and running. Your right, it does not work nearly as well on very large maps like tal darim but enough of the maps are small enough (metalopolis close-air, cloud kingdom, shattered temple and korhal compound) for it to be an extremely viable build. Additionally, I don't know about nexus first being completely safe on maps like tal darim as good hellion control can often kill the majority of your mineral line.
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On February 28 2012 11:13 oli470 wrote:
ill say it again, dont do this build vs a gasless terran 1 rax expand, do something greedier of course. If you scout gas, its probably gonna be 1-1-1 or 2 rax (and from my experience and other protoss' experiences that i've talked to recently, 2 rax is far more common than 1-1-1 on ladder right now). This build holds both 1-1-1 and 2rax, just holds one of them better than any other FE build does, so i don't see your problem.
and besides that, you've said twice now that the protoss should do a 1 gate expand as standard, did you even read anything I wrote? This IS a 1 gate expand, except with a 2nd gas, in fact because the sentries are cheaper in minerals than stalkers, you are able to expand at 27 supply, so this is even a reasonably economical 1 gate expand.
I believe you misunderstood me.
Your whole guide revolves around the idea that 2 rax is common and viable TvP opening at the moment. I respectfully disagree (personally I don´t know any master+ ranked terrans who does 2 rax often and I haven´t seen it being used succesfully in gsl for months)
You also stated in your guide that "A well executed 2 rax will hit the natural with 9 marines and 2 marauders". When 2 rax was a popular TvP opening, it was 5 marines and 1 marauder, with concussive shells finishing just as you reach the protoss ramp. The main reason of 2 rax is to hit as early as possible and hoping there´s no sentries to forcefield or the least amounts of units out of the field. So, a well executed 2 rax will have 5 marines, 1 marauder and 1-2 scvs out around 5.30 and depending on map, it will reach protoss ramp around 6.10-6.20 (5.55 on xel naga but that´s not in ladder pool).
This is how bomber does it, I can upload replay if need to be - even tho that replay is from before rax building time was nerfed by 5 seconds, so you can add 5 to it today.
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On February 28 2012 11:19 smaug81243 wrote:
I don't agree with this statement at all. If you blindly push with 2-rax and do not adapt to what you see it will certainly put you behind but you can come out even or ahead with just about any protoss build. 2-rax is NOT designed to kill a protoss outright, it can, but it doesn't need to. The goal behind it is to consistently trade your units for his gas heavy units while you are getting your tech infrastructure up and running. Your right, it does not work nearly as well on very large maps like tal darim but enough of the maps are small enough (metalopolis close-air, cloud kingdom, shattered temple and korhal compound) for it to be an extremely viable build. Additionally, I don't know about nexus first being completely safe on maps like tal darim as good hellion control can often kill the majority of your mineral line.
Watch Polt vs bling in the links provided above.
Both games he went 2 rax with constant reinforcement and it put him behind severely and he had difficulty dealing with counter preassure to the point where he wasnt able to claim his natural when he wanted to and lost stuff here and there.
PS.
Cloud Kingdom : main to natural distance is 47 seconds - fairly long.
Metalopolis close air : you need to walk around the high ground ramp area in a concave like fashion to avoid getting free stalker/sentry shots.
Shattered Temple close air: Same deal as metalopolis
Korhal Compound : 40 second main to natural distance.
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On February 28 2012 11:15 yoona2012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:04 drybones wrote:there is a 12/14 rax one tech lab timing that this either of these builds cannot hold. Do you have a replay of that? 12 rax, 14 rax with tech lab means 13 gas. 12 rax, 13 gas, 14 rax means either cutting scvs or delaying your orbital upgrade for a 20 second faster marauder pop (vs the 12 rax, 13 gas, 15 orbital, 16 rax) while the marines still pop at standard timing. It doesn´t make sense to me, but I would be interested in seeing it in action. Pure theorycrafting, I believe 1 gate expand should deal with this easily however, it´s fine to let your nexus take a few shots while wait for another round of chrono to get out - afterall losing shield means nothing as long as you dont take hull dmg. This may however be a different story if there´s scv pulls and bunkers combined with this. Again, any replays would be great (preferably executed at master+ level)
I believe he's talking about
12 rax, 14 gas, 14 rax.
Of course it's even stronger if you hide the 2nd rax.
Here's a replay:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/()lOvShinyStar_vs_()ReXWon/18110
If this is actually the build he's talking about.
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On February 28 2012 11:04 drybones wrote:
i still think stopping production after zealot stalker (at 24/26 food) getting the nexus then adding 2 gates, the 3rd pylon, and finally the 2nd gas and 1st sentry is the best way to 1gate fe vs a 2 rax. What ends up happening is WG finishes at 6:10 not 6:20 and the nexus finishes at the same time as well so you can use 6-8 probes while transferring to fight with you.
Also timing works such that you have 1 zeal 1 stalker 2 sentry then the exact amount of money for 3 more stalkers + a few probes by 6:10. I practiced it a bunch of times and it seems by far the best vs a 2 rax but falls behind vs a gasless. Benefit is though you can choose to not warp in the 3 stalkers if there is no pressure and you can abandon ship if you SEE a CC. just seeing gasless isnt enough imo since terran can easy just throw 3 more rax and hit around same time as 2rax.
there is a 12/14 rax one tech lab timing that this either of these builds cannot hold.
i just dont see how 1 zeal 4 sentries and 1 stalker is better than 1 zeal 2 sentries and 4 stalkers. with good micro the terran can destroy you but with more stalkers the micro is far more forgiving
firstly its 3 zealots, 4 sentries and in this build, there are also 3 chronoboosts saved for your gates in this build and i think you underestimate the power of the forcefields in this defence. not only that, but you need at least 5 stalkers to 2 shot the marauders down in a stalker heavy opening, otherwise marauders will really hurt your stalkers quickly. i used to do that build, but i now find this one so much safer.
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cool!
so this force wins WITHOUT forcefields or micro? That is badass... why exactly is it so much stronger? just guardian shield? Have you tested other unit compositions with just 2-3 sentries to see if guardian makes the difference there?
at the very least, this will make me get a sentry as my 3rd unit pvt. very cool.
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Thanks for the replay, just watched it. It was a very strange match to be honest. It wasn´t a 12 rax, 14 rax btw, it was a 12 rax, 14 gas, 15 rax, delayed marine, delayed orbital. If you watch it carefully, you will see his barracks sits idle after completion and his CC doesnt make any scvs till he can afford orbital upgrade. He would have accomplished same timing with standard 2 rax opening with a slightly stronger economy, but I guess the maka raxed 2nd rax threw his timing off a bit.
Anyways watching from the protoss perspective - he played insanely greedily and a bit sloppy.
1) he skipped the first zealot and let his gateway sit idle till core finished where he produced a stalker which he never cronoboosted and lost it without dealing any dmg at all.
2) after the stalker scouted what only possibly could be a 2 rax, he still lets his gateway sit idle and throw down 2 more gateways that wont help him in time or can afford to build from yet.
3) he finally starts gateway production again but doesnt crono boost it even tho he has crono saved up - he does get an immortal however.
I felt if the protoss had played more safely and crono´d off 2 gateway+robo instead of making early 3rd gateway he would have been in much better shape. Also skipping the zealot is a bit risky on dual sight which has insanely short natural to natural distance (28 seconds).
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On February 28 2012 12:13 quillian wrote:
cool!
so this force wins WITHOUT forcefields or micro? That is badass... why exactly is it so much stronger? just guardian shield? Have you tested other unit compositions with just 2-3 sentries to see if guardian makes the difference there?
at the very least, this will make me get a sentry as my 3rd unit pvt. very cool.
in practice, the terran player will try to kite you, but you put 3 force forcefields behind him and he aint going anywhere.
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just go zealot zealot(chrono) sentry sentry and whatever else you wish after
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On February 28 2012 11:28 yoona2012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:13 oli470 wrote:
ill say it again, dont do this build vs a gasless terran 1 rax expand, do something greedier of course. If you scout gas, its probably gonna be 1-1-1 or 2 rax (and from my experience and other protoss' experiences that i've talked to recently, 2 rax is far more common than 1-1-1 on ladder right now). This build holds both 1-1-1 and 2rax, just holds one of them better than any other FE build does, so i don't see your problem.
and besides that, you've said twice now that the protoss should do a 1 gate expand as standard, did you even read anything I wrote? This IS a 1 gate expand, except with a 2nd gas, in fact because the sentries are cheaper in minerals than stalkers, you are able to expand at 27 supply, so this is even a reasonably economical 1 gate expand. I believe you misunderstood me. Your whole guide revolves around the idea that 2 rax is common and viable TvP opening at the moment. I respectfully disagree (personally I don´t know any master+ ranked terrans who does 2 rax often and I haven´t seen it being used succesfully in gsl for months) You also stated in your guide that "A well executed 2 rax will hit the natural with 9 marines and 2 marauders". When 2 rax was a popular TvP opening, it was 5 marines and 1 marauder, with concussive shells finishing just as you reach the protoss ramp. The main reason of 2 rax is to hit as early as possible and hoping there´s no sentries to forcefield or the least amounts of units out of the field. So, a well executed 2 rax will have 5 marines, 1 marauder and 1-2 scvs out around 5.30 and depending on map, it will reach protoss ramp around 6.10-6.20 (5.55 on xel naga but that´s not in ladder pool). This is how bomber does it, I can upload replay if need to be - even tho that replay is from before rax building time was nerfed by 5 seconds, so you can add 5 to it today.
my build does not revolve around the idea that 2 rax is common, it revolves around the the idea that it is a common consequence of gas.
and secondly, lets say he gets to my ramp at 6:15, by 6:30 i have 3 zealots and 4 sentries, easily enough to roll over what ever he has, and in that 15 seconds that force, even with a couple reinforcements cannot have caused enough damage to my nexus to worry about, i just tested it, could take 2/3 of the shield off. also bunkers take 30 seconds to build so they would not complete.
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Alright! I've been looking for a safe opening vs 2 rax for a long time. But there's actually another timing that i'm afraid of with the same build.
At 5:40 the terran could actually be at your natural nexus with 5 marines and 1 marauder already with a constant stream of units. How so? Basically instead of waiting for 2 mara and 9 marines before pushing out, he just has to push out when his first marauder is done. And just nice at 5:30 his concussive shells are done. So with probably 3 units (and sentries to boot) how is the toss going to prevent a bunker from going up?
This can happen if:
A. He spots your nexus building and knows that its a 1 gate fe
B. He notices double gas, therefore no threat of 4 gate
C. He just wants to put some pressure with 2 rax
Why can a terran do this?
A. The scouting stalker at the watch tower/front of the base cant kite this force even without concussive shells (6 range mara vs 6 range stalker plus possible marine fire, you could try softening up the force but seriously a stalker trying to take out this force?
B. Even if toss has a bunch of unit from say a 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo, terran can just back off, no harm done. If stalkers try to chase just wait for the zealot and sentries to be separated away and use concussive shells to pick them off.
If you dont believe me, load up yabot, do a 2 rax build, and just walk the first mara with the marines like a boss across to the toss natural.
TLDR:
Theres an earlier timing from the same build which is more deadly
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On February 28 2012 13:33 speckofdust wrote:
Alright! I've been looking for a safe opening vs 2 rax for a long time. But there's actually another timing that i'm afraid of with the same build.
At 5:40 the terran could actually be at your natural nexus with 5 marines and 1 marauder already with a constant stream of units. How so? Basically instead of waiting for 2 mara and 9 marines before pushing out, he just has to push out when his first marauder is done. And just nice at 5:30 his concussive shells are done. So with probably 3 units (and sentries to boot) how is the toss going to prevent a bunker from going up?
This can happen if:
A. He spots your nexus building and knows that its a 1 gate fe
B. He notices double gas, therefore no threat of 4 gate
C. He just wants to put some pressure with 2 rax
Why can a terran do this?
A. The scouting stalker at the watch tower/front of the base cant kite this force even without concussive shells (6 range mara vs 6 range stalker plus possible marine fire, you could try softening up the force but seriously a stalker trying to take out this force?
B. Even if toss has a bunch of unit from say a 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo, terran can just back off, no harm done. If stalkers try to chase just wait for the zealot and sentries to be separated away and use concussive shells to pick them off.
If you dont believe me, load up yabot, do a 2 rax build, and just walk the first mara with the marines like a boss across to the toss natural.
TLDR:
Theres an earlier timing from the same build which is more deadly
can you show a replay of this timing, i can't imagine such an early timing, unless it is such a small rush distances, then I would always suggest a 3 gate expand.
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On February 28 2012 10:54 yoona2012 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:43 oli470 wrote:
it's certainly not outdated on ladder, perhaps you were referring to pro level, then I could maybe understand what you are saying. You can copy and execute the 1 gate or nexus first opening as progamer protoss does it without being pro level yourself (at least the first crucial 6 minutes flawlessly). The current ladder maps have far enough distance from ramp to ramp to make 1 gate or nexus first safe openings. The micro required to place down forcefields to hold it and chrono out from your gate(s) and robo isn´t excactly required to be GM level. In the very worst case, you may have to pull a few probes and accept a couple of probe losses, but you´ll still be ahead vs a 2 rax opening. The most common TvP openings on ladder are 1 rax expand (into a bunch of different followups) or 1/1/1. 2 rax is outdated and easily scouted unless the 2nd rax is proxied, since the 2nd rax will be put down before the 1st marine pops. You can´t even wall off with 2nd depot to deny scouting when going 2 rax preassure expand, because the 2nd depot timing will delay your 2nd rax too much.
I play @ gm level, placing rank 25 gm last season. It is still a very common strategy and it can catch u offguard quite easily. Especially on maps with small rush distance (meta close air, st close air) it is very hard to hold. And in most cases u have to cancel ur nexus.
I will gladly use this build when I scout 2 rax. Thanks OP!
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On February 28 2012 23:59 Harstem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:54 yoona2012 wrote:On February 28 2012 10:43 oli470 wrote:
it's certainly not outdated on ladder, perhaps you were referring to pro level, then I could maybe understand what you are saying. You can copy and execute the 1 gate or nexus first opening as progamer protoss does it without being pro level yourself (at least the first crucial 6 minutes flawlessly). The current ladder maps have far enough distance from ramp to ramp to make 1 gate or nexus first safe openings. The micro required to place down forcefields to hold it and chrono out from your gate(s) and robo isn´t excactly required to be GM level. In the very worst case, you may have to pull a few probes and accept a couple of probe losses, but you´ll still be ahead vs a 2 rax opening. The most common TvP openings on ladder are 1 rax expand (into a bunch of different followups) or 1/1/1. 2 rax is outdated and easily scouted unless the 2nd rax is proxied, since the 2nd rax will be put down before the 1st marine pops. You can´t even wall off with 2nd depot to deny scouting when going 2 rax preassure expand, because the 2nd depot timing will delay your 2nd rax too much. I play @ gm level, placing rank 25 gm last season. It is still a very common strategy and it can catch u offguard quite easily. Especially on maps with small rush distance (meta close air, st close air) it is very hard to hold. And in most cases u have to cancel ur nexus. I will gladly use this build when I scout 2 rax. Thanks OP!
good to hear 
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I am really shocked to see how many players think that 2 Rax is an outdated build that works only on super-short rushdistances or with some kind of surprise. The opposite is the case. My whole Earlygame is benchmarked against the 2Rax similar as every PvP-Build has to be benchmarked against 4 Gate. The balls-to-the-wall 2 Rax with 2nd Rax immediately after/before first marine, that moves out with 5/1 Marine/Marauder and 2-3 SCVs with Autorepair which slam down 2 Bunkers right into the attackpath and in range of Nexus is incredible hard to hold. In the past Terran players have made the mistake to rush for an expansion by skipping production cycles which makes the push very weak. Nowadays Terrans keep reinforcing, research Combat-Shield right after Shells for a 2nd Push-Timing and sometimes even keep trading army while going for fast Medivacs+Stim for a third Push-Timing. Its incredible strong against 1 Gate FE and leaves very small margin for P-Error during the first push. Unit-AI gets screwed by Bunkers and Probes "forget" to attack SCV's if they hover "into" the constructing Bunker.
On February 28 2012 23:12 oli470 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:33 speckofdust wrote:
Alright! I've been looking for a safe opening vs 2 rax for a long time. But there's actually another timing that i'm afraid of with the same build.
At 5:40 the terran could actually be at your natural nexus with 5 marines and 1 marauder already with a constant stream of units. How so? Basically instead of waiting for 2 mara and 9 marines before pushing out, he just has to push out when his first marauder is done. And just nice at 5:30 his concussive shells are done. So with probably 3 units (and sentries to boot) how is the toss going to prevent a bunker from going up?
This can happen if:
A. He spots your nexus building and knows that its a 1 gate fe
B. He notices double gas, therefore no threat of 4 gate
C. He just wants to put some pressure with 2 rax
Why can a terran do this?
A. The scouting stalker at the watch tower/front of the base cant kite this force even without concussive shells (6 range mara vs 6 range stalker plus possible marine fire, you could try softening up the force but seriously a stalker trying to take out this force?
B. Even if toss has a bunch of unit from say a 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo, terran can just back off, no harm done. If stalkers try to chase just wait for the zealot and sentries to be separated away and use concussive shells to pick them off.
If you dont believe me, load up yabot, do a 2 rax build, and just walk the first mara with the marines like a boss across to the toss natural.
TLDR:
Theres an earlier timing from the same build which is more deadly can you show a replay of this timing, i can't imagine such an early timing, unless it is such a small rush distances, then I would always suggest a 3 gate expand.
Here you go: Taught this build to a player yesterday for practice. Terran is Platinum, me low Master... which imho shows how incredible powerful this build is.
Note that I play my own version of 1 Gate FE.
http://drop.sc/122224
http://drop.sc/122704
http://drop.sc/122705
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On February 28 2012 23:12 oli470 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:33 speckofdust wrote:
Alright! I've been looking for a safe opening vs 2 rax for a long time. But there's actually another timing that i'm afraid of with the same build.
At 5:40 the terran could actually be at your natural nexus with 5 marines and 1 marauder already with a constant stream of units. How so? Basically instead of waiting for 2 mara and 9 marines before pushing out, he just has to push out when his first marauder is done. And just nice at 5:30 his concussive shells are done. So with probably 3 units (and sentries to boot) how is the toss going to prevent a bunker from going up?
This can happen if:
A. He spots your nexus building and knows that its a 1 gate fe
B. He notices double gas, therefore no threat of 4 gate
C. He just wants to put some pressure with 2 rax
Why can a terran do this?
A. The scouting stalker at the watch tower/front of the base cant kite this force even without concussive shells (6 range mara vs 6 range stalker plus possible marine fire, you could try softening up the force but seriously a stalker trying to take out this force?
B. Even if toss has a bunch of unit from say a 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo, terran can just back off, no harm done. If stalkers try to chase just wait for the zealot and sentries to be separated away and use concussive shells to pick them off.
If you dont believe me, load up yabot, do a 2 rax build, and just walk the first mara with the marines like a boss across to the toss natural.
TLDR:
Theres an earlier timing from the same build which is more deadly can you show a replay of this timing, i can't imagine such an early timing, unless it is such a small rush distances, then I would always suggest a 3 gate expand.
1 marauder / 5 marine is the real 2rax timing. it usually hits right before wg tech finishes.
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On February 29 2012 03:24 Xanatoss wrote:I am really shocked to see how many players think that 2 Rax is an outdated build that works only on super-short rushdistances or with some kind of surprise. The opposite is the case. My whole Earlygame is benchmarked against the 2Rax similar as every PvP-Build has to be benchmarked against 4 Gate. The balls-to-the-wall 2 Rax with 2nd Rax immediately after/before first marine, that moves out with 5/1 Marine/Marauder and 2-3 SCVs with Autorepair which slam down 2 Bunkers right into the Attackpath and in Range of Nexus is incredible hard to hold. In the past Terran players have made the mistake to rush for an expansion by skipping production cycles which makes the push very weak. Nowadays Terrans keep reinforcing, research Combat-Shield right after Shells for a 2nd Push-Timing and sometimes even keep trading army while going for fast Medivacs+Stim for a third Push-Timing. Its incredible strong against 1 Gate FE and leaves very small margin for P-Error during the first push. Unit-AI gets screwed by Bunkers and Probes "forget" to attack SCV's if they hover "into" the constructing Bunker. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 23:12 oli470 wrote:On February 28 2012 13:33 speckofdust wrote:
Alright! I've been looking for a safe opening vs 2 rax for a long time. But there's actually another timing that i'm afraid of with the same build.
At 5:40 the terran could actually be at your natural nexus with 5 marines and 1 marauder already with a constant stream of units. How so? Basically instead of waiting for 2 mara and 9 marines before pushing out, he just has to push out when his first marauder is done. And just nice at 5:30 his concussive shells are done. So with probably 3 units (and sentries to boot) how is the toss going to prevent a bunker from going up?
This can happen if:
A. He spots your nexus building and knows that its a 1 gate fe
B. He notices double gas, therefore no threat of 4 gate
C. He just wants to put some pressure with 2 rax
Why can a terran do this?
A. The scouting stalker at the watch tower/front of the base cant kite this force even without concussive shells (6 range mara vs 6 range stalker plus possible marine fire, you could try softening up the force but seriously a stalker trying to take out this force?
B. Even if toss has a bunch of unit from say a 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo, terran can just back off, no harm done. If stalkers try to chase just wait for the zealot and sentries to be separated away and use concussive shells to pick them off.
If you dont believe me, load up yabot, do a 2 rax build, and just walk the first mara with the marines like a boss across to the toss natural.
TLDR:
Theres an earlier timing from the same build which is more deadly can you show a replay of this timing, i can't imagine such an early timing, unless it is such a small rush distances, then I would always suggest a 3 gate expand. Here you go: Taught this build to a player yesterday for practice. Terran is Platinum, me low Master... which shows how incredible powerful this build is if executed correct. Note that I play my own version of 1 Gate FE. http://drop.sc/122224http://drop.sc/122704http://drop.sc/122705
game 1 you lose because those costly stalkers die far too quickly to the marauders
game 2 you hold by losing 6 probes
game 3 you get a really poor engagement, i think you needed to come down your ramp sooner
i think you could really benefit from changing build, its not a favourable composition
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On February 29 2012 03:40 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 23:12 oli470 wrote:On February 28 2012 13:33 speckofdust wrote:
Alright! I've been looking for a safe opening vs 2 rax for a long time. But there's actually another timing that i'm afraid of with the same build.
At 5:40 the terran could actually be at your natural nexus with 5 marines and 1 marauder already with a constant stream of units. How so? Basically instead of waiting for 2 mara and 9 marines before pushing out, he just has to push out when his first marauder is done. And just nice at 5:30 his concussive shells are done. So with probably 3 units (and sentries to boot) how is the toss going to prevent a bunker from going up?
This can happen if:
A. He spots your nexus building and knows that its a 1 gate fe
B. He notices double gas, therefore no threat of 4 gate
C. He just wants to put some pressure with 2 rax
Why can a terran do this?
A. The scouting stalker at the watch tower/front of the base cant kite this force even without concussive shells (6 range mara vs 6 range stalker plus possible marine fire, you could try softening up the force but seriously a stalker trying to take out this force?
B. Even if toss has a bunch of unit from say a 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo, terran can just back off, no harm done. If stalkers try to chase just wait for the zealot and sentries to be separated away and use concussive shells to pick them off.
If you dont believe me, load up yabot, do a 2 rax build, and just walk the first mara with the marines like a boss across to the toss natural.
TLDR:
Theres an earlier timing from the same build which is more deadly can you show a replay of this timing, i can't imagine such an early timing, unless it is such a small rush distances, then I would always suggest a 3 gate expand. 1 marauder / 5 marine is the real 2rax timing. it usually hits right before wg tech finishes.
yep and if you read this guide, it holds this too, but 5:40 seems a bit early, the earliest this normally reaches my nexus is usually 5:55-6:00.
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The reactor-first 2-rax has become less common in high level play, and the tech lab-first 2-rax with a naked rax proxied or on low ground outside T's base is becoming more popular. I believe this attack hits at about 5:45 with 2 marauders and a few marines, and while I haven't done any testing, I believe it would force a nexus cancel every time.
The 1-gate FE I prefer gets a beefier army with 2 zealots, a stalker and a sentry as the first 4 units with WG tech finish at 5:50 as compared to your build which gets 1 zealot, 3 sentries and has WG tech finishing at 6:20. I know that with my 1 gate FE, it takes very good execution combined with a small probe pull to defend this rush. I don't know how you'd defend with only 1 zealot, a couple sentries, and WG tech 30 seconds away.
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I think that this should only be done if the second rax is spotted. You would get ravaged by other builds, like hellion shenanigans with marine drop. Also, since you're not building any stalkers, you give the Terran free map control, even if he isn't building marauders. I guess it seems like an effective 2 rax defense, but lacks in other areas
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On February 29 2012 03:49 kcdc wrote:
The reactor-first 2-rax has become less common in high level play, and the tech lab-first 2-rax with a naked rax proxied or on low ground outside T's base is becoming more popular. I believe this attack hits at about 5:45 with 2 marauders and a few marines, and while I haven't done any testing, I believe it would force a nexus cancel every time.
The 1-gate FE I prefer gets a beefier army with 2 zealots, a stalker and a sentry as the first 4 units with WG tech finish at 5:50 as compared to your build which gets 1 zealot, 3 sentries and has WG tech finishing at 6:20. I know that with my 1 gate FE, it takes very good execution combined with a small probe pull to defend this rush. I don't know how you'd defend with only 1 zealot, a couple sentries, and WG tech 30 seconds away.
you have to forcefield him away with 3 forcefields and wait for warpins, if you miss these then you have to pull some probes.
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 29 2012 04:17 oli470 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 03:49 kcdc wrote:
The reactor-first 2-rax has become less common in high level play, and the tech lab-first 2-rax with a naked rax proxied or on low ground outside T's base is becoming more popular. I believe this attack hits at about 5:45 with 2 marauders and a few marines, and while I haven't done any testing, I believe it would force a nexus cancel every time.
The 1-gate FE I prefer gets a beefier army with 2 zealots, a stalker and a sentry as the first 4 units with WG tech finish at 5:50 as compared to your build which gets 1 zealot, 3 sentries and has WG tech finishing at 6:20. I know that with my 1 gate FE, it takes very good execution combined with a small probe pull to defend this rush. I don't know how you'd defend with only 1 zealot, a couple sentries, and WG tech 30 seconds away. you have to forcefield him away with 3 forcefields and wait for warpins, if you miss these then you have to pull some probes.
Are you sure you have enough energy at that timing that kcdc points out to have 3 forcefields? Then the next question is if you use all your energy then how does the fight go against terran with their additional units without guardian shields? Not only that but the FFs wont hold them off until you get WG done and warp in additional units right?
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On February 29 2012 04:28 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:17 oli470 wrote:On February 29 2012 03:49 kcdc wrote:
The reactor-first 2-rax has become less common in high level play, and the tech lab-first 2-rax with a naked rax proxied or on low ground outside T's base is becoming more popular. I believe this attack hits at about 5:45 with 2 marauders and a few marines, and while I haven't done any testing, I believe it would force a nexus cancel every time.
The 1-gate FE I prefer gets a beefier army with 2 zealots, a stalker and a sentry as the first 4 units with WG tech finish at 5:50 as compared to your build which gets 1 zealot, 3 sentries and has WG tech finishing at 6:20. I know that with my 1 gate FE, it takes very good execution combined with a small probe pull to defend this rush. I don't know how you'd defend with only 1 zealot, a couple sentries, and WG tech 30 seconds away. you have to forcefield him away with 3 forcefields and wait for warpins, if you miss these then you have to pull some probes. Are you sure you have enough energy at that timing that kcdc points out to have 3 forcefields?
yes you have 3 sentries
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This doesn't take into account Terran micro, or a few SCVs, which will inevitably be sent with those initial units. Terran units on their own are not very strong. Micro'ed properly, these same units suddenly become much more cost efficient. For this reason, I don't find your illustrations to be of much value. Add a bunker into one of those shots and suddenly your decision making (as well as AI of your units) becomes obfuscated as well.
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Ok i am no longer endorsing this build on korhal compound, shattered temple and metalopolis as the naturals are too open, its real strength is the safety of the forcefields, it is however perfect for Antiga, Shakuras, entombed valley and cloud kingdom. I have changed the original post accordingly.
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would u recommend dropping gates before nexus in liu of a the opponent dropping a building in ur natural. I know the 2 gate rush is pretty much super delayed but he can expo pretty easily if u have just a stalker and a sentry trying to kill a building vs a zealot and a stalker.
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On February 29 2012 05:44 facemelterr wrote:
would u recommend dropping gates before nexus in liu of a the opponent dropping a building in ur natural. I know the 2 gate rush is pretty much super delayed but he can expo pretty easily if u have just a stalker and a sentry trying to kill a building vs a zealot and a stalker.
i have never seen this accompany a 2 rax, i think its too much of a tight build to allow for it, but by the time he could afford it you would have a stalker out to kill the scv before it could build to significant health.
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On February 29 2012 03:43 oli470 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 03:24 Xanatoss wrote:I am really shocked to see how many players think that 2 Rax is an outdated build that works only on super-short rushdistances or with some kind of surprise. The opposite is the case. My whole Earlygame is benchmarked against the 2Rax similar as every PvP-Build has to be benchmarked against 4 Gate. The balls-to-the-wall 2 Rax with 2nd Rax immediately after/before first marine, that moves out with 5/1 Marine/Marauder and 2-3 SCVs with Autorepair which slam down 2 Bunkers right into the Attackpath and in Range of Nexus is incredible hard to hold. In the past Terran players have made the mistake to rush for an expansion by skipping production cycles which makes the push very weak. Nowadays Terrans keep reinforcing, research Combat-Shield right after Shells for a 2nd Push-Timing and sometimes even keep trading army while going for fast Medivacs+Stim for a third Push-Timing. Its incredible strong against 1 Gate FE and leaves very small margin for P-Error during the first push. Unit-AI gets screwed by Bunkers and Probes "forget" to attack SCV's if they hover "into" the constructing Bunker. On February 28 2012 23:12 oli470 wrote:On February 28 2012 13:33 speckofdust wrote:
Alright! I've been looking for a safe opening vs 2 rax for a long time. But there's actually another timing that i'm afraid of with the same build.
At 5:40 the terran could actually be at your natural nexus with 5 marines and 1 marauder already with a constant stream of units. How so? Basically instead of waiting for 2 mara and 9 marines before pushing out, he just has to push out when his first marauder is done. And just nice at 5:30 his concussive shells are done. So with probably 3 units (and sentries to boot) how is the toss going to prevent a bunker from going up?
This can happen if:
A. He spots your nexus building and knows that its a 1 gate fe
B. He notices double gas, therefore no threat of 4 gate
C. He just wants to put some pressure with 2 rax
Why can a terran do this?
A. The scouting stalker at the watch tower/front of the base cant kite this force even without concussive shells (6 range mara vs 6 range stalker plus possible marine fire, you could try softening up the force but seriously a stalker trying to take out this force?
B. Even if toss has a bunch of unit from say a 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo, terran can just back off, no harm done. If stalkers try to chase just wait for the zealot and sentries to be separated away and use concussive shells to pick them off.
If you dont believe me, load up yabot, do a 2 rax build, and just walk the first mara with the marines like a boss across to the toss natural.
TLDR:
Theres an earlier timing from the same build which is more deadly can you show a replay of this timing, i can't imagine such an early timing, unless it is such a small rush distances, then I would always suggest a 3 gate expand. Here you go: Taught this build to a player yesterday for practice. Terran is Platinum, me low Master... which shows how incredible powerful this build is if executed correct. Note that I play my own version of 1 Gate FE. http://drop.sc/122224http://drop.sc/122704http://drop.sc/122705 game 1 you lose because those costly stalkers die far too quickly to the marauders game 2 you hold by losing 6 probes game 3 you get a really poor engagement, i think you needed to come down your ramp sooner i think you could really benefit from changing build, its not a favourable composition
Oh wow, you pointed out the obvious! My point was that this kind of 2 Rax is extremely dangerous because even small mistakes result in finished bunkers and an awfull situation for P.
And regarding your last comment: WTF?! You advertise a build that has slower warpgate and fewer units than mine at every time and YOU tell ME that my "composition is not favourable"? I dont even know how to respond to that.
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On February 29 2012 04:17 oli470 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 03:49 kcdc wrote:
The reactor-first 2-rax has become less common in high level play, and the tech lab-first 2-rax with a naked rax proxied or on low ground outside T's base is becoming more popular. I believe this attack hits at about 5:45 with 2 marauders and a few marines, and while I haven't done any testing, I believe it would force a nexus cancel every time.
The 1-gate FE I prefer gets a beefier army with 2 zealots, a stalker and a sentry as the first 4 units with WG tech finish at 5:50 as compared to your build which gets 1 zealot, 3 sentries and has WG tech finishing at 6:20. I know that with my 1 gate FE, it takes very good execution combined with a small probe pull to defend this rush. I don't know how you'd defend with only 1 zealot, a couple sentries, and WG tech 30 seconds away. you have to forcefield him away with 3 forcefields and wait for warpins, if you miss these then you have to pull some probes.
You can delay for 15 seconds with 3 forcefields (2 on shakuras), but does that really save the nexus? You're still on a zealot and 3 sentries until 6:30 which means T can get uncontested bunkers at your expansion. And I don't see probe pulling saving the nexus either. If you have a replay vs this, I might reconsider, but from my experience, I don't think you can make it work without more/faster stuff.
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On February 29 2012 05:52 oli470 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:44 facemelterr wrote:
would u recommend dropping gates before nexus in liu of a the opponent dropping a building in ur natural. I know the 2 gate rush is pretty much super delayed but he can expo pretty easily if u have just a stalker and a sentry trying to kill a building vs a zealot and a stalker. i have never seen this accompany a 2 rax, i think its too much of a tight build to allow for it, but by the time he could afford it you would have a stalker out to kill the scv before it could build to significant health.
Almost all variants of 1gate FE that skip zealot, queue the zealot initially and only cancel it if they confirm no block at the natural. You're right in that I don't think they would do it if they're 2rax'ing, but it's a huge nuisance if they do an economical opening and a simple engineering bay block delays your nexus by so long.
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Bling goes 2 probes on gas until after the gates. I believe he also goes 30nexus gate gate.
Polt waited a long time to attack. If he would have started making bunkers as his first marauder and 5 marines arrived he would have forced a cancel.
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On February 29 2012 04:39 zmansman17 wrote:
This doesn't take into account Terran micro, or a few SCVs, which will inevitably be sent with those initial units. Terran units on their own are not very strong. Micro'ed properly, these same units suddenly become much more cost efficient. For this reason, I don't find your illustrations to be of much value. Add a bunker into one of those shots and suddenly your decision making (as well as AI of your units) becomes obfuscated as well.
This point needs to be addressed. Also, chrono timings need to be clarified at certain timings to make the build even more effective. If chronos are used on units, and not on probes, even a well-microed 2 rax will be very easy to hold unless of course you are playing TSL_Polt.
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On Cloud Kingdom, Polt's first marauder came out at 5:00. If he'd pushed then (and gone straight across, instead of meandering), he'd have reached the Protoss natural at around 5:45 when Bling had only 2 sentries. The third sentry comes out at 6:05, and then the gates are ready to warp in at about 6:25.
It strikes me that this isn't enough to hold of constant pressure. If Polt's 2 rax had arrived on time (5:45ish), the sentries would have used their energy before Bling had any more units (and maybe died anyway), Bling would have had at most 1 guardian shield / ff, and Polt could have kited effectively and traded efficiently.
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EPT
