EPTI think you can actually use this thread as follow up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330787
I'd recommend watching the Bronze league videos too, because you might need them for the initial build idea.
[G] How to get out of bronze w/ macro (not cheese) - Page 11
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
I think you can actually use this thread as follow up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330787 I'd recommend watching the Bronze league videos too, because you might need them for the initial build idea. | ||
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tbirdd
United States11 Posts
Replays: Me against a silver Toss on metal Me against a Gold Toss on Daybreak | ||
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QuesterX
Australia32 Posts
Tell me you can. *horrified face* | ||
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vorxaw
Canada245 Posts
hotkey 8 of your scv's in main as any hotkey, say 8. while you are in battle, WATCH your money, not battle, if its high, double tap 8 and you can insta-make buildings in ur main! go back to battle and even though you didnt micro, the battle probably would have gone a-ok. after battle you probably have double his production mass up second round of units and win  glgl | ||
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tbirdd
United States11 Posts
1v1 Johny vs RiZen PvT 1st game, he didn't make a single gatway unit. Only cannons, mass Carriers and mothership. He got a ninja expand early, typical of mass air toss. He made 2 motherships, which I was able to kill off. 1v1 RiZen vs Spaniard TvP This game the Protoss was very aggressive. Constant early attack. Normally, I am the agressor. That probably threw me off. Made a simple, but big mistake. When I made the 2 additional rax, I hotkeyed but forgot set the rally point. So I was fighting with only 1/2 of my army. Didn't even realize until after, I was maxed. | ||
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StrifeIsBack
United States31 Posts
First off thank you so much. This has vastly improved my game from what it used to be with 1000+ avg resource unspent, it is now down below 650 into 20 minute+ games. Of the past 15 or so I have played I only lost 4, the beginning 3 and a TvP 3gate robo where I missed my timings, and suffered with having barely any units out /faceroll. I started in Bronze, and was promoted to Silver after playing 5 games (3 losses in a row, then 2 wins in a row) I am now a Top 30 Silver playing Top 8 Silvers, and any range of Gold ( I don't ladder too often, I'm still a bit nervous and clumsy- adrenaline sucks all the blood from my hands :X) Since I have gone on to incorporate Stim, and Concussive Shells- as well as double ebay on top of the 2 rax as I expand for 1/1+ upgrades. The only Micro I do is to box units A-move, then when they reach destination box units click T for stim, back to macro. It's amazing how in lower leagues, and really in general SC2 is all about just massing more units than the opponent and now that I focus on my macro it just seems so much easier, and I have gotten so much better. I never used to expand, I would always 1 base Terran, I'm now frequently on 4 or more bases by the end of the game, though I do like to keep around 70 SCVs and not more than that really as I like to pump out a good bit of army  .I plan on incorporating Factory w/ Armory (for 2/2+), and Starport (for Medivacs) now and seeing how far that can get me. You have shown the way for a lot of gamers that just didn't know where to start, and I was one of them. If anyone is up for it I have a replay pack for analyzation of all the games I've used this build plus or minus alterations of mine like Stim, and Concuss http://www.mediafire.com/?67680xm6cdb5had | ||
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crow_mw
Poland115 Posts
1) To thank Taerix once again for helping me to get where I am (currently high plat EU). Currently Filter gets a lot of terran praise (and rightfully so), but this is a very good educational tutorial as well. 2) I would recommend new players to go over this tutorial, before Filter's one. It is easier to master and is a bit more resilient in Bronze league (as you get more units early on and hit enemy faster). Additionally later on it gives you more versality, as you feel confident in two openings (1rax FE from Filter's tutorials and this 2-rax play) 3) In some recent tournaments I saw 2-rax opening pop up quite a few times. Granted it is usually proxied and hits much faster (with 3 or 5 marines), but where I stand the marine/marauder push, when used against protoss, is very powerful and can usually allow you to catch up with your economy (after being behind from not fast expanding). Since I recently had very little success with 1 rax FE against protoss I started using this build again. On one hand if he tries to 4-gate me I don't have trouble defending with early marauders. On the other - I can hit his natural waay before collosi, storm or even a very high unit count. This allows me to play a far more equal game than from 1rax fe. The question is whether you consider it cheesing or playing like this on platinum level is considered a valid 'pressure build' (simmilar to zerg whose old 'all-in' builds are now considered 'pressure'). | ||
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sfdrew
United States201 Posts
Somebody will figure out that a particular cheese works really well against this build and they will win most of their games, and that will become the next big thing, until the cycle has repeated itself. This guide is no less a gimmick than cheesing is because it asks you to rely on a "trick". That trick may be macro based, but it is still a trick. You aren't learning how to play the game, your just leaning how to mass a couple units and A-move. Day9 actually had a pretty discussion about why that is a problem and how he used to do it in his pro SC days. Anybody who tells you that you can get out of [INSERT LEAGUE HERE] by doing [INSERT BUILD HERE] is selling you snake oil, whether they intended to or not. There is no miracle build or cheese or strategy that make you win games. You have to practice, read, watch replays, and most importantly, learn to think quickly and react to the situation on the ground. If you can't react to your opponent, and you just rely on a build order or cheese, then you will never become a good player, even if you do get promoted. | ||
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DrLOAC
United States53 Posts
On August 09 2012 03:47 sfdrew wrote: It seems like people never learn from game theory, if they even know what game theory is. The idea that such a solution could exist to get out of bronze is negated by you publishing it! Why? Let's say that your advice becomes popular, and you are by far not the first person to give this advice, then what happens when you play somebody who uses the exact same strategy? Assuming it works well in the current meta-game, then it should catch on as people either read about it, or see it being used against them, thus increasing the likelyhood you will run into it during one of your games. Since they are using the exact same build as you, it will come down to tiny efficiencies in execution. You will start to loose more and more games until you settle in at about 50-50, and you will stop progressing in leagues. Somebody will figure out that a particular cheese works really well against this build and they will win most of their games, and that will become the next big thing, until the cycle has repeated itself. This guide is no less a gimmick than cheesing is because it asks you to rely on a "trick". That trick may be macro based, but it is still a trick. You aren't learning how to play the game, your just leaning how to mass a couple units and A-move. Day9 actually had a pretty discussion about why that is a problem and how he used to do it in his pro SC days. Anybody who tells you that you can get out of [INSERT LEAGUE HERE] by doing [INSERT BUILD HERE] is selling you snake oil, whether they intended to or not. There is no miracle build or cheese or strategy that make you win games. You have to practice, read, watch replays, and most importantly, learn to think quickly and react to the situation on the ground. If you can't react to your opponent, and you just rely on a build order or cheese, then you will never become a good player, even if you do get promoted. There's a lot of truth in what you are saying but I, as a forever Bronze Leaguer, have found is that if you want to macro out of bronze there is a build order to try and it fits in with what you've been saying. 1 Rax FE is the macro build to practice. It requires good macro fundamentals including SCVs AND Production facilities. It forces you to scout to survive and opens up a wide variety of mid-game strategies. Having used it exclusively for the past several months I'm now playing mostly silver. My failure to progress out of bronze is mostly due to other reasons. | ||
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Captain Marksie
40 Posts
On August 09 2012 03:47 sfdrew wrote: It seems like people never learn from game theory, if they even know what game theory is. The idea that such a solution could exist to get out of bronze is negated by you publishing it! Why? Let's say that your advice becomes popular, and you are by far not the first person to give this advice, then what happens when you play somebody who uses the exact same strategy? Assuming it works well in the current meta-game, then it should catch on as people either read about it, or see it being used against them, thus increasing the likelyhood you will run into it during one of your games. Since they are using the exact same build as you, it will come down to tiny efficiencies in execution. You will start to loose more and more games until you settle in at about 50-50, and you will stop progressing in leagues. Somebody will figure out that a particular cheese works really well against this build and they will win most of their games, and that will become the next big thing, until the cycle has repeated itself. This guide is no less a gimmick than cheesing is because it asks you to rely on a "trick". That trick may be macro based, but it is still a trick. You aren't learning how to play the game, your just leaning how to mass a couple units and A-move. Day9 actually had a pretty discussion about why that is a problem and how he used to do it in his pro SC days. Anybody who tells you that you can get out of [INSERT LEAGUE HERE] by doing [INSERT BUILD HERE] is selling you snake oil, whether they intended to or not. There is no miracle build or cheese or strategy that make you win games. You have to practice, read, watch replays, and most importantly, learn to think quickly and react to the situation on the ground. If you can't react to your opponent, and you just rely on a build order or cheese, then you will never become a good player, even if you do get promoted. While what you are saying does seem to make sense, you are missing a key point. EXECUTION. You are saying people should learn the whole game at once. This is simply ineffective. It's basically like asking someone to learn how to play tennis (any sport can be applied here) before they have learned to run. They may have learnt every shot and every response to every shot and how to play out the game from a certain shot but since he cannot run then they will still lose horribly. Macro is like running. It is the base line of everything in the game and so should be the first thing you learn. Once you have good macro you can then learn game theory. It's pointless learning game theory first because you will still lose to someone who can out macro you. In low leagues you simply just need more stuff than your opponent. i remember winning games with pure un upgraded clumped non micro'd marines against banes/tanks/colossus and still winning easily. | ||
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sfdrew
United States201 Posts
On August 09 2012 19:46 Captain Marksie wrote: While what you are saying does seem to make sense, you are missing a key point. EXECUTION. You are saying people should learn the whole game at once. This is simply ineffective. It's basically like asking someone to learn how to play tennis (any sport can be applied here) before they have learned to run. They may have learnt every shot and every response to every shot and how to play out the game from a certain shot but since he cannot run then they will still lose horribly. Macro is like running. It is the base line of everything in the game and so should be the first thing you learn. Once you have good macro you can then learn game theory. It's pointless learning game theory first because you will still lose to someone who can out macro you. In low leagues you simply just need more stuff than your opponent. i remember winning games with pure un upgraded clumped non micro'd marines against banes/tanks/colossus and still winning easily. I understand what you are saying, but consider this, let's say that you employ this strategy and it works really well, to the point that you go from Bronze to Plat, or even Diamond. Because the strategy works, then you are just going to keep using it. However, at some point it will stop working and you will move into a league where players can beat you easily. What do you have to fall back on? Nothing. You haven't been learning the game properly. You haven't practiced micro, so your A-move army is going to trade badly, and you haven't practiced transitioning to better late game units, so your composition is going to suck. Your macro may be able to keep pace with your opponent, but everything else will be lacking. It's a similar position people who cheese their way up the ranks find themselves in, which is that the one thing they can do well stops working and now they have no other options. You could argue that when that point comes, they can start learning other parts of the game and gradually incorporating them into their play, as you suggested with the Tennis analogy, and that would be ok, and many people have advocated that (learning one new thing per league promotion), but I think it's a violent way to learn the game. If it were a function, it would look jagged and discontinuous. You keep bouncing back and forth between doing really, really well, and then suddenly really terribly. I believe a smoother transition is better in the long run. It may be slower at first, and many people may not have the patience, but the acceleration should be rapid after a turning point. I am in Bronze myself, which may be reason enough for people disregard what I'm saying, but I expect to get promoted out at the next season. I frequently get accused of being a smurf, usually by real smurfs who didn't expect me to put up a good fight. I have played people who use this strategy and I mow them down like hot butter. It may work against people who are completely incompentent (aka most Bronze players), but it will fall apart quickly once they start playing anybody with any skill at all. A large army of either one or two basic units, that attacks with A-move is very easy to kill. It may get you out of Bronze league, but then what? You're practically starting from square one again. Your muscle memory is conditioned to that one build, so you are going to make a lot of mistakes when you try something different, and since you haven't been using the other units and structures, you aren't going to be familiar with them. You're forcing yourself to climb a big mountain over and over agian, with a steep face instead of taking the long, easy path on the other side. I've improved a lot in the last few months, from only getting into Bronze, to beating Gold players, and I've only played ~50 games this season. I don't rely on tricks, cheese, build orders, or any other gimmick to get me out of Bronze. I watch every replay of every game, read strategy, watch pro games, watch Day9, and practice against the computer. I feel comfortable playing people above my skill level, and I'm not thrown for a loop by any strategy that gets thrown my way, and when I lose to something novel, I try to remember that weakness and close that hole. At the end of the day that well rounded experience is going to serve me better than a perfectly executed build order that cannot possibly succeed in higher leagues. I've rambled on for a long time now, and I hope that I've made my point. If this strategy does work for people, then more power to them. Different strokes for different folks. | ||
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awaller
United States23 Posts
you to focus on building SCV's, supply depots, and production. When people start beating you it is time to work on other parts of the game. You will still have the skills learned thru increase marco,and now you can work on you strategy,mirco and your transition from opening to mid-games to lategames units composition. This build is a tool for macro. There are other thing to help you with strategy, mirco, and unit comp, that can also be practiced while improving you macro. You do not have to climb the marco mountain again, aleast not from the bottom. | ||
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
When a mutual friend of ours got starcraft II we taught him only to macro. Just gave him a simple build order to make marines, marauders, and later medivacs. We told him not to worry about engagements and just to focus on his macro. After about a month of bronze league he was winless against zerg even while maintaining a spending quotient well within diamond level (I'm pretty sure most people know spending quotient, but if not - look it up its a good article). He also couldn't win in TvT because if someone got tanks he didn't know what to do to not die to tanks. Now perhaps some higher level players would say that he still doesn't need micro to beat these, but he was almost doubling the spending quotient of most of his opponents and still losing. The only reason YOU can win with only marines and marauders is because of you understanding of the game, what to do if you get cheese, what to if they take too many expos', when to expand etc. I'm not trying to say that macro isn't important. It is certainly the largest factor in advancing through leagues. But builds like this discourage learning anything else about the game, and if a new were to try to learn only through this strategy they would likely never make it past silver. Its important to teach people how to Macro without forsaking all of the game knowledge that makes macro effective. Well known tutorials like dApollo's online tutorials still teach things like scouting and basic counters even at the most basic levels. Trying to get lower level players to advance only by sheer strength of macro is a fools errand. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
You could argue that when that point comes, they can start learning other parts of the game and gradually incorporating them into their play, as you suggested with the Tennis analogy, and that would be ok, and many people have advocated that (learning one new thing per league promotion), but I think it's a violent way to learn the game. If it were a function, it would look jagged and discontinuous. You keep bouncing back and forth between doing really, really well, and then suddenly really terribly. I believe a smoother transition is better in the long run. It may be slower at first, and many people may not have the patience, but the acceleration should be rapid after a turning point. You need to accept that improving in just about anything works like this. You will stagnate for times, take steps backwards, have highs followed by lows. Follow your own progress in sc2 and you will see it follows that pattern. To use your example, if you are bronze and learn a build order and reach diamond. Then the build stops working so you make adjustments. You start losing and end up in gold before you stabilize. In every definition you still improved as a player if you look at where you started. | ||
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Tuplex
80 Posts
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benefit
Finland9 Posts
THANK YOU! | ||
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thezanursic
5489 Posts
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Grubbegrabbn
Sweden174 Posts
On February 19 2013 17:20 thezanursic wrote: Mass marines + medivacs = diamond in every match up. Even in ZvZ ? | ||
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thezanursic
5489 Posts
Maybe if mapmakers stop being so stubborn and start putting random SCVs around the map to be mind controled by infstors | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On February 19 2013 17:20 thezanursic wrote: Mass marines + medivacs = diamond in every match up. mass colossi zealot and and spam storm = master in every matchup | ||
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