EPTI think it's better to take 5 bases and focus on denying their 4th instead.
Even the 4th on that map is pretty hard to deny.
I think you should go mutas the second you can rule out a 2 base gateway timing attack and possibly deny the 3rd with them. If you don't see any of the usual tells you can get 6 gas and tech to lair immediately. 20 or so speedlings are enough for map control if you have a roach warren ready to build roaches in case they move out.
My 'standard' ZvP is going roach/banelingrain/infestor. I find it's much more solid, as it's good against the same things Mutas are good against while has better transitions (maxed pure roach/ling, turn all into banes, after fight, remax on the infestor portion and go Bl/infestor), as well as good against other things as well, like stargate (just open with infestors earlier). I feel it's a much more reactive and 'full' way to play (opened stargate, get infestors instead of at 200/200, he has deathball, add a spire, etc).
Furthermore, I think it's much safer - I feel Mutas is more about just playing through the motions, 'correctly', while basically being at the mercy of how good and well the protoss responds. It's less useful if Toss reacts like he did in this game, it's hugely map dependent, et cetera. I just feel like Mutas, there's just a right way to play it, and assuming perfect mechanics (of course, that's a huge if), a muta game by DRG and Nestea would look the same as a muta game by me or you (yea, i know, big if about mechanics). I just don't feel there's much variety in it, and I feel if Toss plays well, you lose. I'm not saying mutas are bad, or that only incompetent Toss lose to them, but I just feel like it puts the control in toss' side of things, as in the game goes according to how well they play. Which I suppose sounds weird, mutas take control of the game right. But I feel it's just too dependent on the choices Toss makes, rather than the choices you make.
But whatever, that's not the point of this thread. I'm just saying what I normally do.
So what does a transition from mutas to BL/infestor look like? When do you start your infestation pit in relation to your 3/4/5 base and your muta count? If toss moves out after you've got a nice infestor count (but before broodlords), should you basetrade or try to fight directly? Lastly, where do you dump your minerals? I'd assume spines, if so, which bases are optimal to spine, your nat/third or your new bases?
I'm interested in the answer to this as well. I've never seen a pro ZvP game where a muta player went into Bl/infestor. I've not only never seen it successfully done, I've never seen it attempted. The muta player just base trades and wins, or the opponent can push out before the muta ball gets too big.
So I watched the replay because I was curious. First off: I went through the first 10-12 minutes or so just looking at your main hatch and the minimap to see if anything was happening. In that time you missed quite a bit of inject timing. Now I know no-one is perfect, but there were a couple of 20s gaps. Assuming this was happening at all 3 bases, that means by the 13 or 14 minute mark you're 20-30 larvae short of where you could be. It's quite significant!
I'll take a look at this, thanks. I like to think my injects aren't too bad, people usually don't say anything lacks in my macro usually. I haven't been playing consistently lately, maybe that's why, I'll check the APM to see if I was properly 'warmed up' in this game ( i think I was okay though).
Going on to transitions a little bit later, there were a couple more points in between. You took bases 4 & 5 which was good. But you didn't make an extra base after that for SUCH a long time. You had COMPLETE map control and a tonne of minerals. There was no reason why you shouldn't have had 3 or 4 extra bases during the long period when you were on 5 base.
Yea. I didn't really expect him to take a fourth, and I was pretty starved on supply. I eventually took them though, right?
Next - your creep spread. Or basic lack of it - it got to a point and then stopped. You should be pushing up to past the xel'naga and just covering the whole middle of the map with it.
Next time I go mutas, I'll dedicate a queen to creep. My creep spread in ZvT is amazing, I always creep the whole map. But in ZvP, I just don't find creep spread as necessary, and Toss tends to burn it much quicker. I guess if he's turtling because of mutas though, I should be spreading. Thanks, I didn't think of that.
Which leads on to - the spine wall. Pretty much the middle of the map is as good a place as any for mass spine on this map, but of course you couldn't because your creep wasn't there. You never had any good place to spine wall really because of your lack of creep.
Can't he just walk around it? I thought I put my spines in a decent enough place, right? It was getting to a point in the game where, my main wasn't important anymore, but rather the expos, but yet, I can't exactly put 30 spines in 3 different locations right?
I was mainly just struggling with supply issues - making sure I have enough drones, making spines, recreating the drones, etc.
5) When you lose some mutas add some infestors and then corruptors for bls for your deathball (you won't always have the money to spend 3100/3100 at once :D)
Ahh, that's useful. I was struggling to understand, how do I max out on BL/Infestor, if I sac my 50 mutas he'll push out and surely kill me before my pure BL/Infestor army would arrive, even with my mass spines (that I could've done better on). Thanks.
Very useful, thank marvellosity.
