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First, ask yourself why you're going 3 base muta instead of 2 base muta. In a gen..........
2 base muta was outdated when MC started doing mass gateway style play. Nowadays, mass gateway is less popular as it was back in MC's prime, but going 2 base muta is just hoping that toss doesn't go mass gateway mc style. Additionally, you HAVE to do damage, or you end up behind. It's a strong build, and most likely you will do damage, but the problem is that it's a coinflip.
But this isn't even relevant to the thread or game... I prefer to play a macro game rather than opening some sort of semi all-innish play that hopes Toss goes one way rather than another, and doesn't require me to do damage or I end up behind.
And just because a pro does a sub-optimal build and crushes on ladder with it, doesn't make it great. It's what they do in tournaments that's more telling, and 2 base muta is just too much at the mercy of hoping toss doesn't do one build over another, and relies on doing a shitton of damage or you end up behind.
And 3 base muta is really common.. it's probably the most 'standard' way to play ZvP right now... so I didn't need to 'ask myself', it's pretty obvious when everyone in the GSL does it, and the casters are saying DRG's 3 base muta play is the new standard of ZvP, et cetera. Fast 3 base into mutas... standard nowadays. Maybe you are behind on the metagame.
Also, you didn't watch the replay, and everything you said is not helpful or relevant to my game or issue. I actually did everything you specify, you'd know that if you watched the replay.
do not engage mutas vs protoss army. get overlord drops, roach/ling drops in main -> mutas to 3rd/4th, mass spine crawlers at newest expos + hive tech units.
Another useless post. I never engaged his army, that was the problem, he never left his base, and I killed many of his bases. He basically just sat on 1 mining base all at points of the game, and because I took your advice and never engaged, his deathball just slowly got bigger and bigger and bigger and then I mined out the map. Not useful.
Any top players that regularly goes 2-base muta vs FFE? Not just GM but top-top-top players.
July does it a lot, but no. July just all-ins anyways. 2 base muta isn't really viable anymore due to MC style mass gateway play and stargate openers.
If he was constantly waiting for a good vortex toilet you should of thrown in a BUNCH of banes, when everything comes out BOOM everything dies would of costed some control in muta but hey, probably would of been worth it
Thanks for watching the replay. I was maxed 200/200 on mutas, I'll be sure to sometime lose all the mutas, then max out on banes, then go back to mutas. Thanks!
1. you saw nexus first, 2 pylons at the front of his wall and that he was getting +1 and made 2 zealots. baneling bust would almost be an auto win.
I opened gasless, like most zerg do. I would not have been able to. That's like saying "He was going 2port banshee, you should've 6 pooled when you saw the banshees cloak!".
2. you did not scout for his second probe this would have shut down the early zealot pressure and saved u from over making lings early game
I don't think I overmade lings. He was doing a 4 warpgate pressure. I don't think this was why I lost?
3. why did you make roachs? your roaches did nothing all game but be a waste of money this delayed your mutas this delayed ur 4th and 5th.
You absolutely need roaches when going fast third, to defend against gateway pressure. He made gateways, he could have just easily just made units instead of thrown down the nexus. Then I would've lost if I didn't have roaches. I didn't make that many roaches.
5. 2 evo chambers that didnt have constant upgrades
I decided to max out on mutas.
6.you made about 100000 overseers (bad idea in general) but you didnt use changlings or contaminate changlings to spot for your mutas where the army is and contaminate key uprgades (ie strom or +attack)
Changelings are crap. I actually did make a ton of changelings all game long, and I knew where he was pretty well.
best way to do roachs into mutas is on a map that u can hit an attack timing with roach speed and 1/1 at around 150 supply with 3 bases and trade armys and refill your army with muta Sheth was doing this alot on stream a few weeks ago with good success otherwise if you dont trade armies the late mutas are not able to accomplish their job of denying expos (this is how he got his 4th) because there is already a big enough army to handle your late mutas to set up a fourth.
Yea... fuck this map. It's retarded how easy it is for Toss to get their third. I'll just go into broodlords or use roach/bane/infestor instead on this map.
Sorry for bashing your game pretty hardcore but you have to rip your game apart if you want to get better. but you also need some encouragement to grow too so some positive things to end on good job with your overlords pooping creep on the expos (very rare to see that outside of pro level play), your mutas did fantastic job harassing and keeping him in his base (even if half the mutas would have done the job too :-P ).
I appreciate your input. I would like if you responded to my counter-claims, I'm interested what you think of that. I'm not trying to be stubborn, it's just how I see the game and I don't think they were why I lost. I mean, I may have lost because I tried to go pure muta, but given that I was going pure muta, getting upgrades are pointless. So, I disagree about your part about not using my evo chambers.
I think, as someone pointed out, the major flaw was letting Toss get his fourth up, and going mutas on a map where I can't use ling/roach/muta to bust the third.
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Okay so watching the replay, here's where I think I can break it down. I can say for certain that I wouldn't, and didn't figure this out when I watched the replay on my own before knowing:
1. Can't let Toss get a fourth when going mutas.
2. hard to use mutas when you can't use ling/roach/muta to bust the third.
So I think 'the moment' when I needed to identify to switch, and should have switched, was right when he got his HT archives out. Not because of any sort of HT issue or whatever, but because that was the moment, when I had about 20 mutas, when I had done lots of damage and expanded and spined it up, that I was 'safe' to go into pure BL/Infestor, because I had the amount of army where I could win a base trade if he pushed, but I also had the extra supply, and could afford to lose all my mutas, so that I could make BL/Infestor.
After this point, it slowly got to the point where I was purely maxed on mutas, and it was simply impossible for me to go BL/Infestor, because it would mean losing a pure maxed army of mutas (over 100 supply in mutas) and then being super vulnerable to a push (can't get 120 supply of bl/infestor in less than 1 minute, despite the spines, even though I had a million gas).
He was able to secure his fourth. There wasn't too much to it, he only needed really 1 mining base, because since I went mutas, I was never engaging his army, so with just one mining base, he could just slowly build up his deathball, that was already super strong. He cannoned the fuck out of his third and put HT's there, so I couldn't do anything about it (at this point I did kill his main and natural though), and he used his huge deathball to secure his fourth, as well as put a million cannons there. That fourth was also all in a choke, so I couldn't engage anyways.
So, when he planted the nexus to his fourth, that's when I lost. Not because he has a fourth up online or anything, but because I was too dedicated to mutas and was 200/200 on pure muta, and I couldn't afford, both in time (if he pushes after killing my mutas off) and in gas (i had like 4k gas, but still not enough to remax on pure bl/infestor to take his deathball on quick enough), to sac all my mutas to tech switch into pure bl/infestor.
I should have identified "Okay I did damage, but he's getting an army here that will be able to secure his fourth" and went BL/Infestor there. It's some point after his third is up and he has an army to deny my mutas, and I should have known that when I noticed I could no longer really harass him because he had so many damn stalkers.
I suppose on maps like TDA where it's a bit more spread and there's more air space and places to muta harass, the window is larger, but on this map, I couldn't slow the growth of his army because his third was literally impossible to engage with roach/ling/muta due to sentries and the chokes, so that led to the 'window' where mutas are good being smaller, and my mutas not being able to do as much harassment since that map is ridiculous in how easy it is for toss to turtle on 3 base.
I really fucking hate that map in ZvP, toss just goes FFE then gets sentries and takes super fast third. My main style of play, roach/bane/infestor, is great against such tactics, so now on I'll stick to what I do best on that map, and now on when I go mutas, I'll learn to identify when to switch to BL/Infestor:
- When toss has the third up and going, and he starts to have an army that can secure a fourth.
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If he's not base trading with you he is simply playing smarter than you. I have lost a number of PvZs based on attempting to trade foolishly into a wall of spines against a mass expand muta player. Mass Muta end game is largely based on trading to win, so when your opponent actually hard counters your strategy by not falling for it, its not like their is some "ultimate solution" to your problem, he simply played the way that end game scenario the best way u can as P, because a trade attempt is an almost instant GG. Just the nature of the MU and your comp/tactics.
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He shouldn't be able to defend 4 bases vs muta. Kill literaly everything you can. Gateways/pylons etc. when he has enaugh blind spots in his bases you can start nydusing roaches, that will do ok vs anti muta army. And take every base on the map if he never moves out.
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any sort of end game muta play should always be forcing base trade. MUTA SUCKS. Admit it. Muta vs stalkers storm archon mothership? seriously?
most of top players use muta to either force base trade/deny expo with a tons of lings support OR switch into hive tech after dealt a significant econ damage on the protoss. If you let P get their 4th up uncontested, you better switch out of muta asap.
Run muta into their main, snipe pylons/probe while run speedlings into their expansion and snipe them. Always try to spott high templars and snipe them down before any sort of storming action occurs. Once you got into hive with cracklings, you should always win base trade if you control your units correctly while mass expanding.
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Why are so many people responding without reading the thread or watching the replay?
It's really, really useless. Seriously. People are making posts that have already been said, and explained. If you watch the replay, a lot of it may make sense.
Like this gem:
He shouldn't be able to defend 4 bases vs muta. Kill literaly everything you can. Gateways/pylons etc. when he has enaugh blind spots in his bases you can start nydusing roaches, that will do ok vs anti muta army. And take every base on the map if he never moves out.
If you watch the game, you'll see how he could defend 4 bases.
And lol at nydus. If someone is turtling, harassing them isn't going to do anything. You're just wasting money for no reason, becasue the turtle just needs time. Unless they are zerg and have a central production facility (which is why nydus is awesome in lategame zvz roach/hydra vs roach/hydra at 200 vs 200), sniping multiple buildings does nothing, and all it does is set YOU further back, essentially giving the turtle more time.
That was the issue in this game, actually. He was turtling, and I was trying to harass too much. But he eventually got too big an army, that it was impossible to ever harass him. This would be okay if I was chipping away at his army, but I wasn't, so only 1 mining base is okay if he has an army I can never engage, and never plan to engage, so long as his net supply increases.
i've said this a few times here, but harassing a turtle is like trying to tackle someone a 100 yards away who has a gun pointed at you and is ready for you.
Anyways thread solved, thanks for the help, to those who watched the replays and taught me the problem. I realized what was wrong, something I don't think I would've figured out on my own, and I really appreciate the input you two gave. Please don't post in here unless you read the thread and watch the replay and have something to add, otherwise, it's already been figured out, and not watching the replay is so, so horribly useless. So many bad posts in here by people who didnt watch rep...
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Well, you posted several times that people didn't watch the replay (myself included) when some did (myself included). Here's something I have to add that will really help you out...Don't post for help and get elitist on people and presume all their advice is wrong or they don't know what they're talking about, didn't watch the rep, etc. You're creating a barrier to yourself improving by insisting you are playing correctly (or at least with the correct idea). As to 2 base muta being a coinflip versus gateway timings, that's just not true. You can hold off gateway timings with pure ling/crawler (as shown by the many times someone held this push off going 2 base infestor/ling; lings with spinecrawlers do fine holding off gateway pressure.
As to 3 base muta being "standard", that's just a stupid phrasology. Korean zergs like to 4 hatch>gas. It's fine if you don't want to play in a certain way, but once again, I would strongly encourage you to stop trying to defend your playstyle/decisions to the death and be receptive of what needs improving. For instance, a poster tells you that you make a lot of roaches for nothing and instead of being receptive, you insist that they're "critical for holding of gateway pressure" that was never coming in the firstplace. Yet you see the fast third and continue pumping quite a few roaches. You insist you never engaged his army when you charged headfirst into a mothership. You can't go 2 base because you've decided that it's impossible to hold gateway timings even though a ton of protoss are saying 2 base muta is a broken build.
All the contraints are within your head, I'd clear that up before probing too far into the game.
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^ I didn't get elitist, I saw 2 posts that really, really helped me out, that I would not have figured out otherwise.
You made a post about 2 base muta. You didn't watch the replay, and your post was soooo irrelevant. Not to mention kind of wrong. You said I should go 2 base muta... I wasn't planning to go mutas, I was going standard play, which is third in response to FFE. 2 base muta has been seen as no longer viable as solid play, only as a semi-cheese. MC basically outdated it with stargate openers and mass gateway play.
At best, you are suggesting I just hope toss doesn't open a certain way, and you are asking me to do a semi-all in play by going 2 base lair instead of third, which, like all-ins and cheese, requires you to do certain damage and hopes the opponent doesn't play a certain way, although it may be 'less' all-in than say, roach/ling.
As to 2 base muta being a coinflip versus gateway timings, that's just not true. You can hold off gateway timings with pure ling/crawler (as shown by the many times someone held this push off going 2 base infestor/ling; lings with spinecrawlers do fine holding off gateway pressure.
Seriously?
If anyone, any race, masses a bunch of static defense, the opponent just grabs their third. 2 base ling/infestor was only viable because NP made it so zerg could stay in the game and not get rolled by colossi, as infestors were both good against gateway with fg, and higher tech with NP. With NP gone, you can't go 2 base infestor anymore since the opponent can just stay on even bases, and get colossi out, and win.
As to 3 base muta being "standard", that's just a stupid phrasology.
Right now, the current metagame is Toss goes FFE, so zerg goes fast third to stay in the game without having to rely on coinflip pressure that must do damage or else they fall behind, and then goes mutas. I don't know what to tell, it's standard. standard. like ffe is standard. standard.
It's fine if you don't want to play in a certain way, but once again, I would strongly encourage you to stop trying to defend your playstyle/decisions to the death and be receptive of what needs improving.
I'm not asking for better strategies, I'm asking help with the strategy that I employed. You telling me "You should go 2 base muta" doesn't exactly help me when I opened fast third in that game. It's ridiculous. it's like telling a zerg who sees reactor hellion that they should go 6 pool, and the merits of 6 pooling and how great it is.
And then you make it out as 3 base muta is such a bad build. It's not, it's standard, and you can see for a long time in this game, I was ahead. I needed help figuring out when was the turning point, and what I should have done instead. Through help, that I couldn't have figured out on my own, thanks to psychotics and Mjolnir, I now know that I should've transitioned into BL/Infestor before Toss gets a fourth, or I should've worked harder to deny the fourth (in the case of this game, I shouldve went bl/infestor quicker, as noted by the guy who I played, who posted here).
. For instance, a poster tells you that you make a lot of roaches for nothing and instead of being receptive, you insist that they're "critical for holding of gateway pressure" that was never coming in the firstplace.
First, I made a counter-point to him, and I asked for his response, to which I'm waiting. I'm not saying everything I say is correct, and I'm asking him to respond, to my response. I'm not going to blindly follow every post here, I need to know why it's good advice. Like your post. Your post about going 2 base muta is ridiculous on so many levels, I'm not going to follow that unless you give a solid reason why, and counter what I've said about it.
Secondly, I watched the replay multiple times, and I think he was wrong. I made the perfect amount of units, I didn't overreact at all. The lings I made at the start, I held his initial force, then his warp-in killed them, then I made roaches, then he warped in an overwhelming number of zealots (i made only a couple roaches), then I made 22 lings (thats just 11 larva), barely held it off with about 10 lings left. I think holding off the Toss gateway aggresion at the 10:00 mark with just 10 lings left over, is pretty damn good. Even Nestea has more units leftover.
Furthermore, i was at the mercy of the opponent, there, if you will. He was diamond, he didn't macro that well, and he was banking over 1k/500. If he had actually macro'd properly, which I assume optimal play from all opponents, as everyone should, and if he simply warped in units instead of threw down that expo and DT shrine, he would've had way more units come in. He had over 5 gateways online, and they weren't on cooldown. If he had warped in 5 more zealots or stalkers, those 11 lings would've died.
So yea, I disagreed with that guy's post saying I overmade units. I think I did a damn good job there, and I hope he takes a second look, with what I posted in mind. All that guy had to do was macro better and he would've had more units, hell he even had money to expo AND warp in units. His low multi-task is the only reason is appears I 'overmade' units.
Yet you see the fast third and continue pumping quite a few roaches. You insist you never engaged his army when you charged headfirst into a mothership. You can't go 2 base because you've decided that it's impossible to hold gateway timings even though a ton of protoss are saying 2 base muta is a broken build.
I already had 75 drones by then.. The only roaches I made before 3 base saturation was the 5 that barely held off the gateway pressure. Someone even posted in here saying you should go roach/ling/pressure, not to mention there's a thread about it.
In the end, I had 22 roaches. 22 roaches it not a lot, pro players tend to make just around that many when going ling/roach/muta. He could have been macro'ing better and had a larger gateway force at any time.
You insist you never engaged his army when you charged headfirst into a mothership. You can't go 2 base because you've decided that it's impossible to hold gateway timings even though a ton of protoss are saying 2 base muta is a broken build.
Yea I don't know what you are talking about. Maybe at the end, when I already lost, when it was a single mothership and 4 or so stalkers by themselves.
You can't go 2 base because you've decided that it's impossible to hold gateway timings even though a ton of protoss are saying 2 base muta is a broken build.
Right... I don't think anyone disagrees with that. A 6 gate +1 all-in is basically the build order counter to 2 base muta. There's no 2 base build that'll beat a 6 gate all-in, the Toss can secure his third IF you push back with burrow roaches, and he'll kill you if you go mutas or infestors. If you mass spines, that just makes it easier for them to take their third.
A ton of toss say 2 base muta is a broken build? Who says that? Why doesn't anyone do it besides july (who mostly all-ins anyways and isn't the only zerg in the world)? Hm, interesting.
3 base is the 'standard' play against FFE. Anything else is a coinflip hoping to do damage or else fall behind.
Yea, this thread is already done. I sincerely appreciated the help of Mr.Bong, psychotics, and Mjolnir, who helped me see things I wouldn't have seen myself. Your post, along with the rest, that didn't watch the replay (or supposedly watched it, but then didn't talk about it at all but rather about how great 2 base muta is), were not useful.
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Belial I'm kind of surprised you're matching up against Diamond players - you seem to have a fairly high level knowledge of the game, what is holding you back? Execution?
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United States8476 Posts
Stop saying shit like 2 base muta is outdated. It's not; that's just your opinion. It's still used very heavily at the pro level. Just off the top of my head in the last month, Lucky did it vs Huk, July did it ~3-4 times, Dimaga did it vs Hero, plus it was used 2+ times in the KSL.
There's a reason people don't help you when you ask for help. You're just going to rebuff them with your own stubborn opinion and if advice doesn't line up with your thoughts on the game, you ignore it. I would have helped anyone else with this post, but I know if I try to help you out here, I'm going to have to post 20 more times in response to you telling me I'm wrong. Here's a post for reference. Change your attitude before you ask for help again.
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Belial I'm kind of surprised you're matching up against Diamond players - you seem to have a fairly high level knowledge of the game, what is holding you back? Execution?
I haven't played in about 3 weeks, so the system matched me up against diamond for my first game back I think. I generally don't play at all for about 3-4 weeks, then get to play hard for a week. Just the nature of my schedule. My win rate is above 65%, due to this.
Stop saying shit like 2 base muta is outdated. It's not; that's just your opinion. It's still used very heavily at the pro level. Just off the top of my head in the last month, Lucky did it vs Huk, July did it ~3-4 times, Dimaga did it vs Hero, plus it was used 2+ times in the KSL.
It is outdated though, and yes, it's pretty obvious everything I say is my opinion. You should stop saying shit like 2 base muta isn't outdated, that's just your opinion. And I think your opinion is wrong! See how goofy that is? Anyways.
2 base muta is sort of becoming more popular again, due to stargate openers and mass gateway all-ins being less popular. But at one time, it was a popular build, and now, it's not so popular. I'm not saying it isn't viable, I'm saying that at one time it was a prime build, and now, it's not, because certain protoss openers just are too strong against it.
It's a somewhat all-innish build, that requires you to do damage or fall behind, and is hard countered by certain openers by Toss (mc style mass gateway and stargate openers). It can work if Toss opens one way, and fail miserably if Toss opens another (or responds a certain way).
That's the problem with it. It's a good 'coinflip' build to pull out in a tournament series, sure, but it's not a good build to do every game. What's more, is that it's completely irrelevant to this thread, because I opened fast third, and Fast third is seen as the 'standard' Zerg play these days, not 2 base lair or 2 base muta. These aren't just my thoughts on the matter, many other people have posted saying the same thing. Not to mention that, despite that lucky and dimaga did it a few times, and July, who is not at the top anymore and is still doing his old all-in builds over and over, does it every game, does not mean it's the standard way to play. It's not standard at all. It's just a build, like roach/ling all-ins, that can do a lot of damage against unprepared Toss.
I would have helped anyone else with this post, but I know if I try to help you out here, I'm going to have to post 20 more times in response to you telling me I'm wrong. Here's a post for reference. Change your attitude before you ask for help again.
I like to understand the game, not just execute what people tell me on the forum. For example, in that thread, you said me getting banelings was stupid against mass archon. I then said "I got them to deal with his mass zealots". You then said "Roaches are much better against zealots than banes", and then I said "Ah, I was wrong, you are right". Now, I know that banelings are good in certain situations, but not good to use over roaches against zealots.
You seem to take it that anytime I question your posts, I am just shitting all over you, and for that, I am sorry. That is completely not my intention. I would appreciate if you still post and reply to me, I just want to have a discussion, that is all. I see the game a certain way, and would love nothing more than to be proven wrong, and become a better player because of it.
There's a reason people don't help you when you ask for help.
I don't agree with that.
I've already made clear multiple times now that I have learned why I lost the game of this thread, through the feedback of psychotics and Mjolnir, that I would not have figured out on my own. I have a certain inexperience with mutas, and the feedback of these two explained to me something about mutas that I simply did not understand at a fundamental level.
I definitely appreciate help by people. What I don't appreciate, and you can read the thread to see, is when people post who haven't watched the replay, useless stuff that has no bearing on the game at hand.
Only 4 people watched the replay:
1. Mjolnir - helped me understand why I lost, and it was something I would not have seen myself, even after watching this replay about 10 times.
2. pschotics - Same^.
3. Mr.Bong - I disagreed with what he said, for reasons I posted, but I invited him to post a response as I was curious to what he thinks of my response to his post (maybe I watched the replays 10 x more than him, so that's why I saw that way, or maybe I'm blind to my issues and he figured it out, i dont know, thats why I want him to respond).
4. Arisen - watched the replay, but never talks about it, instead talking about how great 2 base muta is when I clearly opened fast third. I appreciate his feedback, but I strongly disagree with what he's saying, and 2 base muta is totally irrelevant, since I opened fast third.
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Canada1245 Posts
"ZvP How to use Mutas vs super endgame?"
base race. that's the only thing you can do with mass muta end game.
the only real way to play zvp is to survive till brood infestor, then kill him with it before he gets too many air units.
if you find yourself maxed on mutas then there won't be much you can do besides base racing, unless you get a massive lead from his poor defense.
edit: also two base mutas sucks
edit 2: i saw that he wouldnt base race, i just posted the only way to use them though.
you can't ever hope to fight a maxed protoss army with mass mutas unless you've got some weird upgrade advantage and most of his army value is in collossi, or something.
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What's the point of this post? You're basically making this post into, "I know more shit than you guys see how good I am" you figured it out yourself why even post here? Basically you made yourself look good by writing these long post that I'm not even going to read. 2 base mutas is outdated? No people still use it, the last time I checked I have rarely seen a PvZ without Zerg getting mutas. Do research bro
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^ The point of the post was to figure out why I was wrong. Mjolnir and psychotics told me what went wrong, and pointed out my fundamental lack of understanding in how to use mutas. Only 2 other people watched the replay, everyone else gave bad advice because they didn't watch the replay.
Maybe if you read the post, you'd see my explanation of 2 base mutas. It used to be popular, now it's not. Now, it's just a gimmicky semi-allin that must do damage or Zerg falls behind, that pretty much autoloses to any sort of MC style mass gateway or stargate openers, which was what made 2 base muta outdated in the first place. It's seen a slight resurgence since people stopped going stargate/mass gateway as much, but it not nearly standard. People still 6 pool and roach/ling in zvp too.
"ZvP How to use Mutas vs super endgame?"
base race. that's the only thing you can do with mass muta end game.
the only real way to play zvp is to survive till brood infestor, then kill him with it before he gets too many air units.
if you find yourself maxed on mutas then there won't be much you can do besides base racing, unless you get a massive lead from his poor defense.
edit: also two base mutas sucks
I really appreciate the feedback of a GM, but the problem in the game was that he wouldn't base race me.
This thread can be closed now, I've already figured out what went wrong. Thanks to psychotics and Mjolnir, for actually watching the replay and posting useful advice, as opposed to the many useless posts by people who didn't watch the replay. Thanks MrBong and Arisen for your posts as well. Thanks to psychotics and Mjolnir, I learned why I lost, which I wasn't able to figure out when I watched it many times on my own.
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^stop saying that bro, you're basically making everyone feel like an idiot, I can see why you get banned.
Anyways I'm not saying that 2 base muta is the only used build, but it is most often used. And you realize Zerg don't have to kill toss with it. Everyone thinks Zerg is weak when even bases but it's not always true. If he has muta than he can keep toss in their base while expanding. And trust me 2 base muta is still common, maybe not as used but it is still used.
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I'm late to the party, and the main points have been addressed already. But I'm going to post my 2 cents anyway.
On January 20 2012 17:12 Belial88 wrote:
So I think 'the moment' when I needed to identify to switch, and should have switched, was right when he got his HT archives out. Not because of any sort of HT issue or whatever, but because that was the moment, when I had about 20 mutas, when I had done lots of damage and expanded and spined it up, that I was 'safe' to go into pure BL/Infestor, because I had the amount of army where I could win a base trade if he pushed, but I also had the extra supply, and could afford to lose all my mutas, so that I could make BL/Infestor.
This is imho the correct decision, I'd like to elaborate on that.
My entire goal when playing 3 base muta is to keep the protoss in his base so that I can get 5 bases and tier 3 safely.
Muta (with some ground support) is pretty good against any 2 base colossus death ball timing straight up, so the main thing you'll need to worry about is to delay his 3rd if you can, make him build cannons and force him to get blink before he can move out of his base. When he gets his 3rd, you'll have a huge timing window to get 2 additional bases up (as you did in the replay), hive and be well on your way to BL/infestor.
Personally I never get more than 18-20 mutas. It's all you need really. Any more than that just eats up supply and gas. 17 +1-mutas 2-shot cannons and 20 mutas 1-shot stalkers and 2-shot archons, with equal upgrades. 18-20 mutas clears up a probe-line in seconds, it can kill a warp-in of stalkers before they can do any damage to your mutas and It's just enough to force P to commit his whole blink stalker force to deal with them, thus keeping him in his base.
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^stop saying that bro, you're basically making everyone feel like an idiot, I can see why you get banned.
Anyways I'm not saying that 2 base muta is the only used build, but it is most often used. And you realize Zerg don't have to kill toss with it. Everyone thinks Zerg is weak when even bases but it's not always true. If he has muta than he can keep toss in their base while expanding. And trust me 2 base muta is still common, maybe not as used but it is still used
Why are you posting in here though? Let this thread die. You aren't really talking about my replay anymore, you are talking about 2 base muta. Like wtf. Really? This has nothing to do with my game! If you want to discuss the merits of how great 2 base muta are, great, open a thread about it. PM me the link and I'll discuss it with you, maybe I'm the one that's wrong. But in this game, I did a fast third. So telling me "You should go 2 base muta" really, really, does not help me. I was asking "What did I do wrong this game". Unless you want to say "You should never take a fast third in ZvP!", please, stay on topic.
2 base muta is most often used? Not really? Fast third is the standard response to FFE. It's the only response you can have if you plan to play the long game. No, you don't have to kill with 2 base muta, just like you don't have to kill with 6 pool or roach/ling. But you better do a shitton of damage, as in more than 20 probes.
Yea... mutas are standard in ZvP. But as fast third into mutas, not 2 base.
This is imho the correct decision, I'd like to elaborate on that.
My entire goal when playing 3 base muta is to keep the protoss in his base so that I can get 5 bases and tier 3 safely.
Yea, I entirely missed that. I thought just pure muta would be the way to go. I think that mutas are somewhat new again in ZvP, since Zergs are going fast third now, and seeing a resurgence in use after they were for so long 'not viable' because of MC style play, back when Zergs never took a fast third. I think that, being so new a strat, a lot of Zergs I saw go mutas, went pure mutas, so I never really thought there was anymore to it. As Protoss, as my opponent shown in this game, got better used to mutas, Zerg had to better evolve the gameplan.
So what do you think about going into Ultras? I considered Ultras that game, but... yea, they are ultras. Maybe ultras would've been good... I did write a guide about them a long time ago. It's just hard to use them in chokes, and that map is all chokes by the bases, and since he was turtling, I was never going to be able to engage him in the open.
Muta (with some ground support) is pretty good against any 2 base colossus death ball timing straight up, so the main thing you'll need to worry about is to delay his 3rd if you can, make him build cannons and force him to get blink before he can move out of his base. When he gets his 3rd, you'll have a huge timing window to get 2 additional bases up (as you did in the replay), hive and be well on your way to BL/infestor.
Yea... I think I'll just go mutas only if I see toss open 2 base colossi now on. But the big problem in this game, was the map. I really fucking hate Entombed Valley, I wish I had another veto, because Toss can so easily take their third.
In this game, as you see in the replay, I actually did attempt to bust his third. He had no idea I was even attempting the bust (I looked at his cam to see how he seemed so prepared for it). But that map's third is too damn easy for Toss.
So you are saying I should go mutas the second he gets his third up and I couldn't bust it? If I did that, I would've been pretty vulnerable. I guess the idea is use mutas to keep them in their base, despite that the better decision may be to move out?
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On January 23 2012 12:33 Belial88 wrote:
So what do you think about going into Ultras? I considered Ultras that game, but... yea, they are ultras. Maybe ultras would've been good... I did write a guide about them a long time ago. It's just hard to use them in chokes, and that map is all chokes by the bases, and since he was turtling, I was never going to be able to engage him in the open.
Ultras are ok defensively when the opponent is at your half of the map and you want to force them back. But in a lategame situation with near maxed armies, I've never gotten them to work. I guess a small number can be good as forcefield breakers. Broods benefit from muta upgrades and doesn't have a counter as effective as the immortal, they also force P to go stalkers, which are terrible against zerg ground forces.
On January 23 2012 12:33 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Muta (with some ground support) is pretty good against any 2 base colossus death ball timing straight up, so the main thing you'll need to worry about is to delay his 3rd if you can, make him build cannons and force him to get blink before he can move out of his base. When he gets his 3rd, you'll have a huge timing window to get 2 additional bases up (as you did in the replay), hive and be well on your way to BL/infestor. Yea... I think I'll just go mutas only if I see toss open 2 base colossi now on. But the big problem in this game, was the map. I really fucking hate Entombed Valley, I wish I had another veto, because Toss can so easily take their third. In this game, as you see in the replay, I actually did attempt to bust his third. He had no idea I was even attempting the bust (I looked at his cam to see how he seemed so prepared for it). But that map's third is too damn easy for Toss. So you are saying I should go mutas the second he gets his third up and I couldn't bust it? If I did that, I would've been pretty vulnerable. I guess the idea is use mutas to keep them in their base, despite that the better decision may be to move out?
It's near impossible to deny such a closed-of 3rd when P has sentries. Entombed Valley is pretty much designed for 3 base play. I think it's better to take 5 bases and focus on denying their 4th instead.
I think you should go mutas the second you can rule out a 2 base gateway timing attack and possibly deny the 3rd with them. If you don't see any of the usual tells you can get 6 gas and tech to lair immediately. 20 or so speedlings are enough for map control if you have a roach warren ready to build roaches in case they move out.
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So what does a transition from mutas to BL/infestor look like? When do you start your infestation pit in relation to your 3/4/5 base and your muta count? If toss moves out after you've got a nice infestor count (but before broodlords), should you basetrade or try to fight directly? Lastly, where do you dump your minerals? I'd assume spines, if so, which bases are optimal to spine, your nat/third or your new bases?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
So I watched the replay because I was curious. First off: I went through the first 10-12 minutes or so just looking at your main hatch and the minimap to see if anything was happening. In that time you missed quite a bit of inject timing. Now I know no-one is perfect, but there were a couple of 20s gaps. Assuming this was happening at all 3 bases, that means by the 13 or 14 minute mark you're 20-30 larvae short of where you could be. It's quite significant!
Going on to transitions a little bit later, there were a couple more points in between. You took bases 4 & 5 which was good. But you didn't make an extra base after that for SUCH a long time. You had COMPLETE map control and a tonne of minerals. There was no reason why you shouldn't have had 3 or 4 extra bases during the long period when you were on 5 base.
Next - your creep spread. Or basic lack of it - it got to a point and then stopped. You should be pushing up to past the xel'naga and just covering the whole middle of the map with it.
Which leads on to - the spine wall. Pretty much the middle of the map is as good a place as any for mass spine on this map, but of course you couldn't because your creep wasn't there. You never had any good place to spine wall really because of your lack of creep.
I guess you know by now that you have to transition. As a Protoss player, there are two things I fear as the game goes on against mutas, and they often come together but not necessarily. Firstly, a mass roach switch, and secondly the impending doom of broodlords. If they never come, I can manage. There was a point during the game where you remaxed with 31 mutas to get back up to 200/200. That could have been 15 infestors and 15 corruptors, and bang! you almost have your infestor/broodlord army in one swoop!
In short:
1) hit your injects
2) when you have map control expand more
3) spread your creep ----> spine wall
4) prepare your transition with infestation pit/hive/greater spire (2 spires if you wanna upgrade can't hurt)
5) When you lose some mutas add some infestors and then corruptors for bls for your deathball (you won't always have the money to spend 3100/3100 at once :D)
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EPT
