EPT[D] Raven Auto-Turret in TvP - Page 3
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On December 19 2011 10:38 iAmJeffReY wrote: Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air. Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting. And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas? Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time. "Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air." -makes sence but whats stopping you from using your armory(s) "Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread" - I'm not multiposting, i am just posting, i misspell simply because i type fast, and how am i "bumping" if I am jsut expressing some strategeric knowlege? "Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting." - the battlehellion( the new firebat) will allow terran to finally micro less to win more then usual......wait that sounded wrong. but pretty much your saying is that like every terran unit if used properly can do well? or are you implying that you don't want to micro your units to win engagements? "And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas?" -MM( not including the ghosts, medivacs or vikings) is generally the only units used much in TVP -Marines are used til the point where theres tier 3 out in the field and its 25 minutes + in a game and terrans still haven't made anything other then marine tank..... in TVZ( then later they get ghosts, vikings, and medivacs(mid game for vacs) -so pretty much the marine does the killing in TVZ and the MM does the killing in TVP "Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time" - then why not mix in blue flame hellions if they roast zealots and zerglings??? and give map control and scouting? | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
On December 19 2011 10:38 iAmJeffReY wrote: Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air. Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting. And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas? Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time. My knee-jerk reaction is to agree with you that the OP would be be better off with 400 more gas in Ghost/Viking than 2 Ravens. But the more I think about it, I think the OP has a good point with regards to resource flow. It's not as simple as plugging in 400 gas into Ghosts; they require 800 minerals as well. I think a better way to put it is that Ravens are a mineral-cheap way to tank damage for the bio ball. Because Ravens are a spellcasting unit, they don't rely on Armor+Attack upgrades like Vehicles and Ships. MMM has plenty of DPS, the only thing we lack for vs the Protoss deathball is survivability. Armor is important in TvZ and TvT because both races have many rapid-fire units. But Protoss doesn't have any ground units like that. Which means in that matchup, raw HP is the most important survivability statistic. Ravens bring 440+ HP to the field each (Raven+2 Turrets). Which is almost as good as a Thor, except its faster, can fly, provides detection, and has the option to PDD if the P gets too Stalker heavy. I'm curious why people are making such a big deal about feedback. Which would you prefer, a feedback doing 100 damage to one unit? Or a storm doing 800-1600 damage to your bio ball, depending upon how good you dodge the storm? I would almost always prefer receiving the feedback. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
And what knowledge? To be crass, you sound as if you are barely even into platinum with your theorycraft. Also, what's to stop you from using your armories to upgrade? How about the deathball of collsai chargelot HT, or ht zeal archon? How will you deal with it? When he's 3/0/3 you'll be what.. 1/1 on mech and bio? If you focus on upgrades, you won't have any units etc. It's stupid tbh. And really? PDD doesn't even phase 20+ stalkers. 1 volley and energy is gone for 100 energy? Not worth it. Because Ravens are a spellcasting unit, they don't rely on Armor+Attack upgrades like Vehicles and Ships. MMM has plenty of DPS, the only thing we lack for vs the Protoss deathball is survivability. Armor is important in TvZ and TvT because both races have many rapid-fire units. But Protoss doesn't have any ground units like that. Which means in that matchup, raw HP is the most important survivability statistic. Ravens bring 440+ HP to the field each (Raven+2 Turrets). Which is almost as good as a Thor, except its faster, can fly, provides detection, and has the option to PDD if the P gets too Stalker heavy. Although to be effective you need +2 building armor, and 1-2 raven upgrades like energy starting upgrade, and durable materials and building attack range? | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote: Sir.... The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK. Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell. so by your logic every thing that has energy is useless vs toss. just have the ravens on another hotkey and dont let them lead your army and get feedbacked....fedback..... u get the point. the same way if a toss make templar he's smart enough to not stick them 10 feet infront of his army and act as a very expensive ineffective shield | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44312 Posts
On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote: Sir.... The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK. Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell. So any unit is useless because they can get countered? As a Protoss player who's up against bio and medivacs, I care more about using storm on the bio and feedbacking drops than feedbacking ravens. | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
Midgame Terran army, that's really heavy marines, not behind on upgrades, with ghosts, and medivacs. Beats Toss army without any sentry for Gaurdian shield, no AOE, and not that many units. No shit. This really needs to be emphasized more. As T it's my dream come true to see a fight like that. I don't know how you got to that battle but unless you traded some heavy blows early, having only 1 1 at 20 minutes is inexcusable. Especially for a toss going that style. And he had no AoE so of course heavy marines wins, with the upgrades and the ghosts and just everything being in your favor. The battle you see in the picture, including the upgrades and bases etc, is just something so easy for the Terran to wins, it baffles me why you think this showcases anything. Pro T already put Maruders in front of marines. And the idea is cool, cause sometimes your army just has a raven for dt. But in general I'd keep my expensive raven in the back, knowing if I lost it I'd have to swap my reactored star port again. | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
On December 19 2011 16:05 teamamerica wrote: Cool idea but sorry your example engagement is the worst example fucking ever. Firstly, a normal midgame situation had the toss up an armor upgrade to your attack upgrade. Secondly your army wins that fight handily anyway. The auto turret blockin could have just as easily been done by Maruders. Midgame Terran army, that's really heavy marines, not behind on upgrades, with ghosts, and medivacs. Beats Toss army without any sentry for Gaurdian shield, no AOE, and not that many units. No shit. This really needs to be emphasized more. As T it's my dream come true to see a fight like that. I don't know how you got to that battle but unless you traded some heavy blows early, having only 1 1 at 20 minutes is inexcusable. Especially for a toss going that style. And he had no AoE so of course heavy marines wins, with the upgrades and the ghosts and just everything being in your favor. The battle you see in the picture, including the upgrades and bases etc, is just something so easy for the Terran to wins, it baffles me why you think this showcases anything. Pro T already put Maruders in front of marines. And the idea is cool, cause sometimes your army just has a raven for dt. But in general I'd keep my expensive raven in the back, knowing if I lost it I'd have to swap my reactored star port again. I agree that it's not the best example, in my write-up I acknowledge that it's somewhat ideal. But I didn't have a better example yet, I will include a replay when I go up against a better balanced composition. It still makes a big difference. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2011 15:38 kill619 wrote: so by your logic every thing that has energy is useless vs toss. just have the ravens on another hotkey and dont let them lead your army and get feedbacked....fedback..... u get the point. the same way if a toss make templar he's smart enough to not stick them 10 feet infront of his army and act as a very expensive ineffective shield Yeah, always confused me. Medivacs get hit by feed back from time to time, but terran players still build them. Yet any other unit that can be hit by feed back with the exception of the ghost, is useless. The raven is a plump target for sure, but using the auto turret before attacks would make sure it did not have enough engery to be knocked out by a single feed back. The auto turret is impressive even when it is not upgraded. It has 150 hp, 1 armor, lasts 180 seconds(that is well over 10 times the lenght of a single forcefield), does 10 damage as about the same fire rate as an unstimmed marine. As speed bumps for zealots go, it is pretty awesome. Also remember that if zealots pop their charge attempting to kill the auto turrent, they have to wait 14 seconds before they can charge again. That is a long time to slow walk toward a bio army. | ||
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
It's just 750 minerals, no gas and come with much more hp. Also compared to raven they are immune to high templar. You don't even need techlabs on your starport so you can make more of those super handy medivacs. Protoss usually has to build pylons closer to your base to kill you so it's only fair you bring buildings closer to them too. Also once you land those you can reinforce your attack with sick 5 marines every 30 seconds. Then again it slows down your army a bit but your army is still going to be like 50% more mobile than mech and buildings even fly so how is he going to kill those midflight? Sick idea to say so myself, I report to you later. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
I mean the turrets were great, but werent the reason you won the battle. The PDD was much more valuable | ||
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Miserix
Peru4 Posts
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boSeok
Canada177 Posts
On December 19 2011 10:49 Zergrusher wrote: "Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air." -makes sence but whats stopping you from using your armory(s) "Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread" - I'm not multiposting, i am just posting, i misspell simply because i type fast, and how am i "bumping" if I am jsut expressing some strategeric knowlege? "Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting." - the battlehellion( the new firebat) will allow terran to finally micro less to win more then usual......wait that sounded wrong. but pretty much your saying is that like every terran unit if used properly can do well? or are you implying that you don't want to micro your units to win engagements? "And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas?" -MM( not including the ghosts, medivacs or vikings) is generally the only units used much in TVP -Marines are used til the point where theres tier 3 out in the field and its 25 minutes + in a game and terrans still haven't made anything other then marine tank..... in TVZ( then later they get ghosts, vikings, and medivacs(mid game for vacs) -so pretty much the marine does the killing in TVZ and the MM does the killing in TVP "Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time" - then why not mix in blue flame hellions if they roast zealots and zerglings??? and give map control and scouting? Well bro Marines are what kill everything>??? You realize Marines are only effective in high level? do you think it is easy to be cost efficient with a marine ball? just do the math. 20 marines is 40 zerglings we turn 5 of the zerglings into banelings, 5 banelings and 35 zerglings vs 20 marines early game zerg is going to be ahead. trust me The only reason marines kill everything is cause they attack both air and ground. they have great mobility. they have pretty good attack speed and range. they are pretty much the protoss stalker but with no blink and no gas. And you QQ does not help the thread, well guess what mutas are made to a point where it is impossible to move out as terran. Also ill give you a reason why terrans marine and other units are strong. -we are not zerg we can not produce 100 zerglings after a fight we must build one unit at a time. -we are not toss we can not warp in 12 stalkers and crono the warpgates so we build another 12 stalkers in 5 seconds. -we do not have creep spread for our units to move faster into the battle field. -we do not have any form of retreating/ blink or zerglings run away pretty fast well what does this tell you. we terrans must have each units walk through the battle field in danger of getting pickedoff, mutas. This means we have to spend more resources in either proctecting the path of reinforcing/ turrets or spend apm to mannually reinforce in groups which is not smart. So since we have a low reinforcements we must do with what we have.... this means out units have to hold out in the battle field better than our opponent or our horrible macro mechanics will make it impossible to fight with a decent trade. Jus think if terrans have zerglings instead of marines, roaches instead of maruaders. if we have 12 barracks. 6 with reactor, we would be pumping out 24 zerglins at a time..... and 6 roaches at a time... im pretty sure that is same as 2 larvae injects... Just think if terrans had zealots instead of marines, stakers instead of maruaders. we would not be able get the units to the battle field as fast as 12 warp gate... | ||
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scrub96
United States76 Posts
On December 20 2011 04:15 Plansix wrote: Yeah, always confused me. Medivacs get hit by feed back from time to time, but terran players still build them. Yet any other unit that can be hit by feed back with the exception of the ghost, is useless. The raven is a plump target for sure, but using the auto turret before attacks would make sure it did not have enough engery to be knocked out by a single feed back. The auto turret is impressive even when it is not upgraded. It has 150 hp, 1 armor, lasts 180 seconds(that is well over 10 times the lenght of a single forcefield), does 10 damage as about the same fire rate as an unstimmed marine. As speed bumps for zealots go, it is pretty awesome. Also remember that if zealots pop their charge attempting to kill the auto turrent, they have to wait 14 seconds before they can charge again. That is a long time to slow walk toward a bio army. Medivacs are less likely to build up energy as they are constantly drained from stim + damage. Plus they stay further back in the army. Ravens and ghosts are usually in the front and spend their energy in large chunks rather than over time. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 20 2011 05:10 scrub96 wrote: Medivacs are less likely to build up energy as they are constantly drained from stim + damage. Plus they stay further back in the army. Ravens and ghosts are usually in the front and spend their energy in large chunks rather than over time. So if you kept them farther back and spent the engery over time, feed back would be less of an issue? The auto turrent last long enough where it could be placed to control an area, rather than in combat. | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
On December 19 2011 05:06 Zergrusher wrote: terran units are mineral heavy, so course gas is in great ammount.. also VS zerg ravens can save you scans.. and PDD blocks mutalisk shots I'm sorry but dropships are expensive, vikings are expensive, and terran upgrades are expensive. Do you know how much gas you need for a reactor starport? If you have any sort of macro, you need LOTS. Also, a raven is a starport tech lab... So now I need to build two starports, 1 just for a raven? And that will probably get a feedback almost immediately? Thanks but Raven's are a fantastic unit in TvT. I will use Ravens in TvP only in the situation OP had, and probably only one. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 20 2011 05:21 MrRicewife wrote: I'm sorry but dropships are expensive, vikings are expensive, and terran upgrades are expensive. Do you know how much gas you need for a reactor starport? If you have any sort of macro, you need LOTS. Also, a raven is a starport tech lab... So now I need to build two starports, 1 just for a raven? And that will probably get a feedback almost immediately? Thanks but Raven's are a fantastic unit in TvT. I will use Ravens in TvP only in the situation OP had, and probably only one. Couldn't you switch on a tech lab, build 1 or 2 and then switch it back? Once you see zealot/archon, the colossi production is going to slow down. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
This gives a reason to have 1-2 ravens out on the field, which gives the OP some standing to start talking about how to use auto turrets in battle. In truly standard TvP this is entirely useless since the raven is just not a part of MMMVG. Banshees are excellent harass and can even be uncorporated into your army as additional fire support, which can cloak to go chew on your opponent's army if the opportunity presents itself. Keep killing observers and they will stay useful all game, and to do that you vikings and either many scans, or 1-2 ravens. | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
On December 19 2011 11:34 iAmJeffReY wrote: But look at any TvP game, how many tech lab starports do you have? Starports without a reactor leads to you losing to collsai. Tech lab starports + time to make 2-3 ravens...they just don't pay for themselves to be worth it. And what knowledge? To be crass, you sound as if you are barely even into platinum with your theorycraft. Also, what's to stop you from using your armories to upgrade? How about the deathball of collsai chargelot HT, or ht zeal archon? How will you deal with it? When he's 3/0/3 you'll be what.. 1/1 on mech and bio? If you focus on upgrades, you won't have any units etc. It's stupid tbh. And really? PDD doesn't even phase 20+ stalkers. 1 volley and energy is gone for 100 energy? Not worth it. Although to be effective you need +2 building armor, and 1-2 raven upgrades like energy starting upgrade, and durable materials and building attack range? There is nothing stopping us from making more than 1 Starport. Just because it's standard to factory scout in TvP doesn't mean that everyone must do it. A reactor is 50/50, a Starport is 150/100. If all you are doing with your Starport is making Medivacs and Vikings, there's no reason why you couldn't simply make 2 Starports without addons instead. It only costs 100/50 more than the Reactored version. You don't need to add the tech labs to the Starports right away, it's only if/when you float gas that you add on the techlabs to flush your gas into Ravens. Besides, if you are TRULY worried about Collosus, you will need 2 Reactored Starports anyway. You should already have plenty of Reactors from your Raxes in TvP. So the only limiting factor is the number of Starports themselves. Also, Autourrets do not need +2 building armor OR any Raven upgrades to be effective. If you actually read the entire post instead of the first line, then you'd understand my argument. :p Anyway, it's silly to invest in Raven upgrades if you're only making 2 of them. The point that the OP is trying to make is that the Ravens *don't* need to do massive damage like most gas heavy units in TvZ and TvT. In TvP, all they need to do is sink your gas effectively. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 20 2011 11:38 kNightLite wrote: There is nothing stopping us from making more than 1 Starport. Just because it's standard to factory scout in TvP doesn't mean that everyone must do it. A reactor is 50/50, a Starport is 150/100. If all you are doing with your Starport is making Medivacs and Vikings, there's no reason why you couldn't simply make 2 Starports without addons instead. It only costs 100/50 more than the Reactored version. You don't need to add the tech labs to the Starports right away, it's only if/when you float gas that you add on the techlabs to flush your gas into Ravens. Besides, if you are TRULY worried about Collosus, you will need 2 Reactored Starports anyway. You should already have plenty of Reactors from your Raxes in TvP. So the only limiting factor is the number of Starports themselves. Also, Autourrets do not need +2 building armor OR any Raven upgrades to be effective. If you actually read the entire post instead of the first line, then you'd understand my argument. :p Anyway, it's silly to invest in Raven upgrades if you're only making 2 of them. The point that the OP is trying to make is that the Ravens *don't* need to do massive damage like most gas heavy units in TvZ and TvT. In TvP, all they need to do is sink your gas effectively. You do realize that if one HT is nearby, your raven is dead? Raven spells range are ridiculously small. I'd love to see you sneak in double starport, instead of reactor off factor into one reactor starport. That initial total or 300/200 plus 2 medics makes it 500/400 as opposed to the already neccessary fac, so it's not added in, 150/100 + 2 medics 350/300. That's a huge difference in time as to when you'd be able to not only get the starports, but the initial two medics. You're only basically advocating using the raven as a way to force an unnecessary charge? A 100/200 unit, just one, for one charge... I'd take the 2 ghosts, as 400/200 is a much safer, sounder investment in TvP that is 100% guaranteed to do damage if you land one emp. The only time I can see a raven being useful is when one sticks to constant DT harassment, be it through warp prisms or proxy pylons, while expanding with sentries/archon/chargelot or sentry/collsai to defend with. I just don't see it even being 'good' or doing ANY damage. It's feedback bait. That's it. Warp in anywhere nearby, and pop there it goes. | ||
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