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Background
+ Show Spoiler +Hello, my name is UpperBound, a lowly mid-diamond NA Terran who has been working a lot on TvP recently. I recently stumbled upon a good use of the Raven in TvP-- after my opponent opened DT expand and spread DT in the open map, it became ineffective for me to rely on scans, especially since my third was a Planetary at the gold base. I therefore made 2 ravens to help me move across the map, and then needed another use for them. I started using auto-turrets to create better positions in TvP.
Analysis
We zoom to the 19 minute mark of the same game on Shattered Temple, where my opponent and I have both saturated a third at the gold and have very similar army sizes, economies, and tech investment at the time of this fight. I go to try to deny my opponent's third before he can get out too many HT with storm -- as you can see, storm is still several seconds from completing at the beginning of this engagement, so my opponent morphs extra Archon.
This area in Shattered Temple is usually a tough place to engage for Terran; it's nearly impossible to get a good concave and a solid zealot wall with Archon, Colossus, or Storm AoE does quite well. I decide that I can create a more favorable engagement, and try to entice a battle by moving forward to attack the Nexus.
My opponent sees my marines clumped and without the ability to really stutterstep, and starts to move in. I use my Ravens to cast a line of Auto-Turrets along the front.
These auto turrets serve a number of functions:
1. They allow me to reposition my army by providing a shield -- turrets have 150 health points each with 1 building armor, so they are approximately 20% more effective at tanking than marauders.
2. They draw charge from the zealots. If your army is a hex or two behind the turrets, that still means the zealots will have to slow walk from the turrets to your army. This is time where you will be able to stand and fire without stutterstepping.
3. They provide a buffer between archon splash and my bio. Archon strikes do not splash off of the turrets, and they do not get their bonus against bio. This makes them very ineffective. They also cannot simply ignore the turrets, because their range is too short. Colossus would be somewhat more effective, but it still requires the Protoss to actively control the colossus or they will simply target the much closer turrets.
It's also notable that with the current Protoss approach to micro, your Ravens will be safe from feedback because the HT will be mostly in the back to guard against EMP. Ravens have 140 HP, and the maximum a feedback should be able to do is 49, so the Ravens are generally quite safe.
Here's what happens when the zealots charge into the front line of turrets, and then have to still travel to the bio:
After this, the usual micro ensues: EMP the zealot line and front layer of Archon. As you can see, the zealots will get very few hits on my bio with maybe 1 or 2 small stutters necessary.
And then stim, and the battle is pretty elementary from here.
I end up losing about half my army and killing everything, despite my opponent's 1-1 upgrades to my 1-0 (my 2-1 was about 1/2 to 2/3 done).
Obviously, there are other ways I could have improved my play: I forgot to throw down extra rax when I took my third, and did not queue up supply depots and got supply blocked in the seconds leading up to the battle, hence my money rising. However, I think it is useful to look at this battle in a vacuum and go from there. In my mind, this use of the Raven has plenty of merit and has not been fully explored. I encourage you all to try it out and post your results.
On a higher-level perspective, the usage makes sense: it allows the Terran to take advantage of all 6 geysers available on three bases, instead of pooling 1000 resources as is normal without Raven use. Also, it allows Terran to zone areas of the map: the turrets last 180 seconds, so if the Terran can force the Toss into an engagement, he is already in a much more favorable position.
Although I believe this works best against Templar tech rather than Robo builds, the manuever has worked for me against any chargelot-reliant composition. Given that the zealot has become Terran's most feared adversary in the matchup, hopefully this helps.
I look forward to any feedback, even though this suggestion is certainly not as good as the Noblesse one just posted (sad panda).
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Cool tactic, especially if you've got the ravens anyways and there aren't enough stalkers to bother with PDD. One other tactic you might want to practice is one that DeMuslim does on-stream and looks like fun:
-Stim a single marauder and run it near his army (not close enough to take archon hits in this case). The marauder usually lives long enough to force most of the zealots to burn their charge, similar to your turret strategy. This is more generically applied because you won't always have ravens in your army TvP.
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Nice idea, I just don't see myself having so much gas to spare at a time in the game when I need so many ghosts and medivacs. Theres just no gas left over for cute tactics using 400+ gas. I might try it out if for some wierd reason I found myself really floating gas and short on minerals.
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Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell.
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I saw this on a stream recently but I forget who it was. They put down one turret before engaging and the Protoss player couldn't stop his zealots from wasting their charge on it and he easily won a game that should have been a lot closer.
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On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell.
Did you even read the guide? HT go in the back of the toss army, and you will be laying down turrets before the templar get in range to feedback. If you get feedbacked, you're doing it wrong.
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The only reason I ever use turrets is to distract them wit something that takes a while to kill at the back of their mineral line :D
My only issue with turrets is they die too fast against immorts and do 0 damage, but yeah its a nice damage soak indeed.
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On December 19 2011 04:04 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell. Did you even read the guide? HT go in the back of the toss army, and you will be laying down turrets before the templar get in range to feedback. If you get feedbacked, you're doing it wrong.
Don't the HTs want to storm the marines, instead of hurting a unit, anyways? It would be stupid for the toss for waste his storm energy.
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On December 19 2011 04:00 statikg wrote:
Nice idea, I just don't see myself having so much gas to spare at a time in the game when I need so many ghosts and medivacs. Theres just no gas left over for cute tactics using 400+ gas. I might try it out if for some wierd reason I found myself really floating gas and short on minerals.
In TvP all you ever make is MMM+ ghosts, so you should have an insane amount of gas floating around, I like to use turrets too and get ravens incase of pesky DTs and snipe observers.
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You already have to do a ridiculous amount of stuff to win a TvP fight.
But this trick does have potential, and a raven is always useful in sniping off observers or preventing DTs or PDD. And yes HTs may get the ravens, but they would have to move to the front to cast feedback and you can thus snipe them. Plus any energy spent on something other than storms is always worth it.
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On December 19 2011 04:10 DigiGnar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 04:04 upperbound wrote:On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell. Did you even read the guide? HT go in the back of the toss army, and you will be laying down turrets before the templar get in range to feedback. If you get feedbacked, you're doing it wrong. Don't the HTs want to storm the marines, instead of hurting a unit, anyways? It would be stupid for the toss for waste his storm energy.
Last time I checked feedbacking a ghost was considered a good move?
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I really wish Ravens were useful, especially since T floats gas if he caps all geysers.
But I think the solution is simply that T doesn't need as much gas/resources, since it benefits less from it. Ravens are not answer because you will get really little mileage out of auto turrets in direct combat. TvP is all about army movement and positioning, and you will be forced to reposition out of turret by colossi + storm. The moment colossi get in range, you will need to kite, so the turrets are really just a minor speed bump.
One arguable use for turrets is to spam them at an expo to attack or defend. 5 Ravens is more efficient food wise than any loaded medivac (10 food). 10-20 turrets is far more deadly than any 8 marine drop, and will either require significant enemy positioning or saccing of the expo. This isn't something that's really explored since it requires the building armor upgrade for auto turrets, and a ton of time for mana build up.
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On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell.
This argument is so flawed. Nobody has perfect micro and engagements. Saying a unit with energy is useless just because Templars should feedback them is the same argument that Templar are useless because Ghosts should EMP them.
To OP, great find! I find that Ravens are so unexplored in every matchup, thanks for making this more apparent!
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On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell.
that's like saying HT's are useless because they can get sniped/emp'd,
ghosts are useless cause they can just get feedbacked,
and infestors are useless because they can get sniped, emp'd, and fungal'd, etc.
...
what's really more important is positioning, and makes all the difference in all of these scenarios
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also, PDD is great VS alot of stalkers..but thats widely known
actually if you emp the HT's and then do hunter seeker........ on the stalkers..........hmmmmm.
ravens are such a great caster unit, i can't wait til people realise there full potential ^^
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Nice trick, will try it for sure as I do struggle with combo of emp/stutter step, resulting in me getting trashed by chargelots more often then not lol... turrets tanking giving you some time to wastem with emps and then micro your bio back seems cool to me nice post.
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But.... where do you get the gas???
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Hunter seeker missles are the real reason Ravens are great. Use them like nukes to maintain positional advantages.
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To all the people giving negative feedback, pun intended, the presence of a counter to a tactic never nullifies the tactic...that just makes no sense.
By that logic, why even play Protoss because of EMP? Why even play zerg because of snipe? EMP counters shields and snipe counter bio, so certainly because these entire races are countered, we should all just play terran right?
To the OP: this is creative, interesting, a potentially very useful. Do not listen to anyone that takes 1 sentence to respond to your post and tell you that you are wrong. IMO ravens are one of the least explored and potentially most useful unit in the game. The problem is a lot of pros will not try new strategies against evenly matched opponents because they play to win. This is why you only see this stuff on ladder or on TLattack.
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On December 19 2011 04:49 MrRicewife wrote:
But.... where do you get the gas???
Good question.
From looking at OP's army composition, it is so heavily marine based that a storm or a colossus would've destroyed the army really badly. By allocating gas to marauders the terran army survives late game AOE damage from protoss.
IMO raven is a TvT unit. The gas dump just cannot be justified unless you are going 1/1/1.
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On December 19 2011 04:49 MrRicewife wrote:
But.... where do you get the gas???
terran units are mineral heavy, so course gas is in great ammount.. also VS zerg ravens can save you scans.. and PDD blocks mutalisk shots
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I'm sorry to say that ravens, although they are cool, aren't very useful at high level play. They cost too much gas and are instantly countered by feedback. Also, when I'm on three base, I never have a problem spending gas because ghosts, medivacs, and uprgades are all very gas heavy. People always seem to think that terrans don't use ravens enough, but there is a reason almost all high level terran players don't make them.
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When you regularly see even pros start to float enough for 2 ravens past the 15 minute point in a game, well, it answers you question about where you get the gas from.
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And this exploits the zealots greatest weakness, their love to punch buildings over targets with less hp. :-P
I have been wondering if I would see more Ravens in the game. It would seem like a really effective was to disrupt zealots, since they A-move and would go after the turret. Plus with 150 hp, 1 armor, turrets don't die fast and their damage is nothing to be ignored. Anything that messes with zealots pathing is a nightmare for the protoss player, since they are so much larger than zerglings and can block other units like the archon. Plus they are beyond slow once the charge is popped.
Feedback would be effective if the turrets were used offensively. But with the HTs slow movement speed and the long duration on the turrets(3 minutes game time), they could be used defensively. They cost a mint, but carefully used, they could effective.
I don't know if it would work in high level play, but as a protoss player, I don't like ravens or auto turrets.
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On December 19 2011 05:11 sSoda wrote:
I'm sorry to say that ravens, although they are cool, aren't very useful at high level play. They cost too much gas and are instantly countered by feedback. Also, when I'm on three base, I never have a problem spending gas because ghosts, medivacs, and uprgades are all very gas heavy. People always seem to think that terrans don't use ravens enough, but there is a reason almost all high level terran players don't make them.
science vessels would like to talk to you about what you just said( and yes it took a while before people used them)
and scan is ez but 1 raven could save you reasons to scan, and can do so much more
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On December 19 2011 05:32 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 05:11 sSoda wrote:
I'm sorry to say that ravens, although they are cool, aren't very useful at high level play. They cost too much gas and are instantly countered by feedback. Also, when I'm on three base, I never have a problem spending gas because ghosts, medivacs, and uprgades are all very gas heavy. People always seem to think that terrans don't use ravens enough, but there is a reason almost all high level terran players don't make them. science vessels would like to talk to you about what you just said( and yes it took a while before people used them) and scan is ez but 1 raven could save you reasons to scan, and can do so much more
scanning is used for more than just denying cloacked units. vision is important as well. and ravens dont give u that
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On December 19 2011 05:43 radiantshadow92 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 05:32 Zergrusher wrote:On December 19 2011 05:11 sSoda wrote:
I'm sorry to say that ravens, although they are cool, aren't very useful at high level play. They cost too much gas and are instantly countered by feedback. Also, when I'm on three base, I never have a problem spending gas because ghosts, medivacs, and uprgades are all very gas heavy. People always seem to think that terrans don't use ravens enough, but there is a reason almost all high level terran players don't make them. science vessels would like to talk to you about what you just said( and yes it took a while before people used them) and scan is ez but 1 raven could save you reasons to scan, and can do so much more scanning is used for more than just denying cloacked units. vision is important as well. and ravens dont give u that
I'm talking about spells and usage,
comsat had a smaller size, with SCAN you can't even fit the red circle used to use it on your computer screen, and the animation doesn't fit the true size. and a raven offers you mobile detection with your army
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On December 19 2011 05:16 Plansix wrote:
And this exploits the zealots greatest weakness, their love to punch buildings over targets with less hp. :-P
I have been wondering if I would see more Ravens in the game. It would seem like a really effective was to disrupt zealots, since they A-move and would go after the turret. Plus with 150 hp, 1 armor, turrets don't die fast and their damage is nothing to be ignored. Anything that messes with zealots pathing is a nightmare for the protoss player, since they are so much larger than zerglings and can block other units like the archon. Plus they are beyond slow once the charge is popped.
Feedback would be effective if the turrets were used offensively. But with the HTs slow movement speed and the long duration on the turrets(3 minutes game time), they could be used defensively. They cost a mint, but carefully used, they could effective.
I don't know if it would work in high level play, but as a protoss player, I don't like ravens or auto turrets.
BTW turrets get effected by the building armor( making them have 3 armor) and the Hi sec auto tracker( making them have 7 range) ........... and with durable materials....... they can last for over 240 seconds
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Clever tactic. You can also bring a few scvs with your army and build barracks walls in certain spots to create funnels or to just completely block off attack paths to create better engagements.
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LOL at people talking about gas constraints in a TvP. Unless you are so good you are perfectly managing your mineral - gas ratio by taking guys off gas, you will always float a ton of gas. Marauder costs 25 gas and ghost costs 100 gas. After you have invested in ebay upgrades and have gotten reactor port pumping medivacs, you will start to float a ton of gas. Can people actually play the game with the respective race before commenting? Even with perfect mule dropping and macro, if you are mining off 4 gas, you will definitely float gas. If you don't get 4 gas, there is no way to invest in upgrades, reactor medivacs, and all the bio upgrades.
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Yeah this works well, just be careful if they become more stalker heavy go back to pdds for your energy sinks
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On December 19 2011 05:32 Zergrusher wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2011 05:11 sSoda wrote:
I'm sorry to say that ravens, although they are cool, aren't very useful at high level play. They cost too much gas and are instantly countered by feedback. Also, when I'm on three base, I never have a problem spending gas because ghosts, medivacs, and uprgades are all very gas heavy. People always seem to think that terrans don't use ravens enough, but there is a reason almost all high level terran players don't make them. science vessels would like to talk to you about what you just said( and yes it took a while before people used them) and scan is ez but 1 raven could save you reasons to scan, and can do so much more
You're forgetting that in bw there was no need to make any other air unit besides the science vessel to make. In sc2, constant medivac/viking production is really important and ravens aren't a good enough unit to swap on a techlab and use 200 gas. People are also saying that terrans tend to float gas but I never have problems spending gas on three bases.
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On December 19 2011 06:22 sSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 05:32 Zergrusher wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2011 05:11 sSoda wrote:
I'm sorry to say that ravens, although they are cool, aren't very useful at high level play. They cost too much gas and are instantly countered by feedback. Also, when I'm on three base, I never have a problem spending gas because ghosts, medivacs, and uprgades are all very gas heavy. People always seem to think that terrans don't use ravens enough, but there is a reason almost all high level terran players don't make them. science vessels would like to talk to you about what you just said( and yes it took a while before people used them) and scan is ez but 1 raven could save you reasons to scan, and can do so much more You're forgetting that in bw there was no need to make any other air unit besides the science vessel to make. In sc2, constant medivac/viking production is really important and ravens aren't a good enough unit to swap on a techlab and use 200 gas. People are also saying that terrans tend to float gas but I never have problems spending gas on three bases.
you don't have to mass the ravens. just get like 2-3
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If you turned those ravens into different units, you still would have won the battle in the screenshot regardless.
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I like the idea, but in that particular series of screenshots, the Protoss player had way too many Archons and I'm sure got EMP splashed all over him. I think you'd still struggle with like a 4:1 Zealot to Archon ratio.
I think what you should do more than anything is try to position the turrets to give you a wall to one side so your bio is more protected from direct engagements and the Zealot-wrapping takes a lot longer to reach the bulk of your army.
Say in your series of screenshots you set the turrets down near that cliff by the Nexus in a blocking fashion, it'd draw a ton of attention and eliminate a lot of Zealots' usefulness, because it's now both a target and a barricade.
Also, researching building armor and Raven energy would help this strategy out quite a bit.
Overall, I think Terran players need to be more creative with floating buildings and restricting Zealot movement when they are fighting Zealot/Archon armies. It's a battle that is all about surface area, but Terran players routinely engage in wide open fields instead of the way they would against, say, a huge pack of Zerglings.
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this tactic can give mix results it either can win you the game or lose because they were feedbacked and so they were useless if you want to go bunkers and so something fun this could work
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On December 19 2011 06:38 Zergrusher wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2011 06:22 sSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 05:32 Zergrusher wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2011 05:11 sSoda wrote:
I'm sorry to say that ravens, although they are cool, aren't very useful at high level play. They cost too much gas and are instantly countered by feedback. Also, when I'm on three base, I never have a problem spending gas because ghosts, medivacs, and uprgades are all very gas heavy. People always seem to think that terrans don't use ravens enough, but there is a reason almost all high level terran players don't make them. science vessels would like to talk to you about what you just said( and yes it took a while before people used them) and scan is ez but 1 raven could save you reasons to scan, and can do so much more You're forgetting that in bw there was no need to make any other air unit besides the science vessel to make. In sc2, constant medivac/viking production is really important and ravens aren't a good enough unit to swap on a techlab and use 200 gas. People are also saying that terrans tend to float gas but I never have problems spending gas on three bases. you don't have to mass the ravens. just get like 2-3
You actually think you can just pump out 2-3 ravens? how can you keep up production of vikings if they go heavy colossi and if you don't get at least 3 medivacs for your army, you're going to lose. The only way you could possibly get out 2-3 ravens would be to get a second starport entirely. Ravens just aren't a good enough of a unit, too easily countered by feedback.
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Good in theory, if you have them around. However, as it seems high gas needs are needed to counter protoss upgrades like charge, or blink, or storm, spending gas on ravens is a bit frivolous.
Someone here said it, and used Demuslim as an example (Love that guy) Yes the stim a marine or marauder trick is very effective for first engaging the protoss. If you get a few steps and volleys off of a studder ball and have them not close in, you successfully whittled them down.
Sure, auto turrets do the same thing, and are free in a sense, the ravens are not. It's rare to even have a starport with a tech lab in TvP if you are bancheesing.
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On December 19 2011 06:47 sSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 06:38 Zergrusher wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2011 06:22 sSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 05:32 Zergrusher wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2011 05:11 sSoda wrote:
I'm sorry to say that ravens, although they are cool, aren't very useful at high level play. They cost too much gas and are instantly countered by feedback. Also, when I'm on three base, I never have a problem spending gas because ghosts, medivacs, and uprgades are all very gas heavy. People always seem to think that terrans don't use ravens enough, but there is a reason almost all high level terran players don't make them. science vessels would like to talk to you about what you just said( and yes it took a while before people used them) and scan is ez but 1 raven could save you reasons to scan, and can do so much more You're forgetting that in bw there was no need to make any other air unit besides the science vessel to make. In sc2, constant medivac/viking production is really important and ravens aren't a good enough unit to swap on a techlab and use 200 gas. People are also saying that terrans tend to float gas but I never have problems spending gas on three bases. you don't have to mass the ravens. just get like 2-3 You actually think you can just pump out 2-3 ravens? how can you keep up production of vikings if they go heavy colossi and if you don't get at least 3 medivacs for your army, you're going to lose. The only way you could possibly get out 2-3 ravens would be to get a second starport entirely. Ravens just aren't a good enough of a unit, too easily countered by feedback.
soo...... why not just 1-2, or even use banshees more? since there light units stalkers don't do bonus damage to banshees, and they can cloack......... ya know honestly why don't terrans use hellions all game round VS zerg? since mutaling usually uses alot of lings. why not get some BF hellions........... with a reactored factory. to roast those lings? its like....... " why composition? when i can eather go 1-2 unit comps?" its interesting how strong sky terran, with tanks is, also its not about going straight "bio" or "sky" or "mech".
Compositions are deadly, for a reason, terran has the msot variation possible and unlocks all there tech routes very quickly. its like Asking a scrin player why doesn't he make gun walkers VS orcas and rifle squads....... ok you see my point.
i mean if terrans tier 1 unit(s)( marines and marauders) can beat the snot out of tier 2- 3 units. why not? I'm just mildy shocked, its like why wouldn't you build sniper teams VS alot of Nod rocket squads if your GDI?
speaking of sniper teams, lets talk ghosts..... EMP medivacs and banshees in TVT( i wish lockdown was back honestly, but the raven and the ability)
snipe HT's in TVP. use nukes, or hey just build more ghosts for more EMP( sicne now EMP has the same radius as storm now)
and VS zerg snipe queens, BL'ds, Infestors..... and ultralisk.... which is really game breaking VS zerg and remember how the infestor and HT got nerfed of the games progression but peopel still learned to use them?? snipe is probally next and probally will cost 50 energy instead of 25. but can still be used well, unlike how NP got gimped and is rarely seen nowadays.
and since snipe is concidered a spell it ignores armor of bio units( aka all zerg)
it only costs 25 energy for a range 10 45 damage no cooldown shot( A ghost like all SC2 casters have 200 energy(mana) max so do the math).
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soo...... why not just 1-2, or even use banshees more? since there light units stalkers don't do bonus damage to banshees, and they can cloack......... ya know honestly why don't terrans use hellions all game round VS zerg? since mutaling usually uses alot of lings. why not get some BF hellions........... with a reactored factory. to roast those lings? its like....... " why composition? when i can eather go 1-2 unit comps?" its interesting how strong sky terran, with tanks is, also its not about going straight "bio" or "sky" or "mech".
Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air.
Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread
Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting.
And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas?
Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time.
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Even if it's nice and all, i really can't see myself handling ravens when you already need to sutter step micro + emp + dodging storm + focus fire when needed
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On December 19 2011 10:38 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +soo...... why not just 1-2, or even use banshees more? since there light units stalkers don't do bonus damage to banshees, and they can cloack......... ya know honestly why don't terrans use hellions all game round VS zerg? since mutaling usually uses alot of lings. why not get some BF hellions........... with a reactored factory. to roast those lings? its like....... " why composition? when i can eather go 1-2 unit comps?" its interesting how strong sky terran, with tanks is, also its not about going straight "bio" or "sky" or "mech".
Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air. Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting. And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas? Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time.
"Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air."
-makes sence but whats stopping you from using your armory(s)
"Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread"
- I'm not multiposting, i am just posting, i misspell simply because i type fast, and how am i "bumping" if I am jsut expressing some strategeric knowlege?
"Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting."
- the battlehellion( the new firebat) will allow terran to finally micro less to win more then usual......wait that sounded wrong.
but pretty much your saying is that like every terran unit if used properly can do well? or are you implying that you don't want to micro your units to win engagements?
"And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas?"
-MM( not including the ghosts, medivacs or vikings) is generally the only units used much in TVP
-Marines are used til the point where theres tier 3 out in the field and its 25 minutes + in a game and terrans still haven't made anything other then marine tank..... in TVZ( then later they get ghosts, vikings, and medivacs(mid game for vacs)
-so pretty much the marine does the killing in TVZ
and the MM does the killing in TVP
"Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time"
- then why not mix in blue flame hellions if they roast zealots and zerglings??? and give map control and scouting?
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On December 19 2011 10:38 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +soo...... why not just 1-2, or even use banshees more? since there light units stalkers don't do bonus damage to banshees, and they can cloack......... ya know honestly why don't terrans use hellions all game round VS zerg? since mutaling usually uses alot of lings. why not get some BF hellions........... with a reactored factory. to roast those lings? its like....... " why composition? when i can eather go 1-2 unit comps?" its interesting how strong sky terran, with tanks is, also its not about going straight "bio" or "sky" or "mech".
Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air. Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting. And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas? Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time.
My knee-jerk reaction is to agree with you that the OP would be be better off with 400 more gas in Ghost/Viking than 2 Ravens.
But the more I think about it, I think the OP has a good point with regards to resource flow. It's not as simple as plugging in 400 gas into Ghosts; they require 800 minerals as well. I think a better way to put it is that Ravens are a mineral-cheap way to tank damage for the bio ball.
Because Ravens are a spellcasting unit, they don't rely on Armor+Attack upgrades like Vehicles and Ships. MMM has plenty of DPS, the only thing we lack for vs the Protoss deathball is survivability. Armor is important in TvZ and TvT because both races have many rapid-fire units. But Protoss doesn't have any ground units like that. Which means in that matchup, raw HP is the most important survivability statistic. Ravens bring 440+ HP to the field each (Raven+2 Turrets). Which is almost as good as a Thor, except its faster, can fly, provides detection, and has the option to PDD if the P gets too Stalker heavy.
I'm curious why people are making such a big deal about feedback. Which would you prefer, a feedback doing 100 damage to one unit? Or a storm doing 800-1600 damage to your bio ball, depending upon how good you dodge the storm? I would almost always prefer receiving the feedback.
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But look at any TvP game, how many tech lab starports do you have? Starports without a reactor leads to you losing to collsai. Tech lab starports + time to make 2-3 ravens...they just don't pay for themselves to be worth it.
And what knowledge? To be crass, you sound as if you are barely even into platinum with your theorycraft. Also, what's to stop you from using your armories to upgrade? How about the deathball of collsai chargelot HT, or ht zeal archon? How will you deal with it? When he's 3/0/3 you'll be what.. 1/1 on mech and bio? If you focus on upgrades, you won't have any units etc.
It's stupid tbh. And really? PDD doesn't even phase 20+ stalkers. 1 volley and energy is gone for 100 energy? Not worth it.
Because Ravens are a spellcasting unit, they don't rely on Armor+Attack upgrades like Vehicles and Ships. MMM has plenty of DPS, the only thing we lack for vs the Protoss deathball is survivability. Armor is important in TvZ and TvT because both races have many rapid-fire units. But Protoss doesn't have any ground units like that. Which means in that matchup, raw HP is the most important survivability statistic. Ravens bring 440+ HP to the field each (Raven+2 Turrets). Which is almost as good as a Thor, except its faster, can fly, provides detection, and has the option to PDD if the P gets too Stalker heavy.
Although to be effective you need +2 building armor, and 1-2 raven upgrades like energy starting upgrade, and durable materials and building attack range?
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On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell.
so by your logic every thing that has energy is useless vs toss. just have the ravens on another hotkey and dont let them lead your army and get feedbacked....fedback..... u get the point. the same way if a toss make templar he's smart enough to not stick them 10 feet infront of his army and act as a very expensive ineffective shield
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On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell.
So any unit is useless because they can get countered?
As a Protoss player who's up against bio and medivacs, I care more about using storm on the bio and feedbacking drops than feedbacking ravens.
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Cool idea but sorry your example engagement is the worst example fucking ever. Firstly, a normal midgame situation had the toss up an armor upgrade to your attack upgrade. Secondly your army wins that fight handily anyway. The auto turret blockin could have just as easily been done by Maruders.
Midgame Terran army, that's really heavy marines, not behind on upgrades, with ghosts, and medivacs. Beats Toss army without any sentry for Gaurdian shield, no AOE, and not that many units. No shit. This really needs to be emphasized more. As T it's my dream come true to see a fight like that. I don't know how you got to that battle but unless you traded some heavy blows early, having only 1 1 at 20 minutes is inexcusable. Especially for a toss going that style. And he had no AoE so of course heavy marines wins, with the upgrades and the ghosts and just everything being in your favor. The battle you see in the picture, including the upgrades and bases etc, is just something so easy for the Terran to wins, it baffles me why you think this showcases anything.
Pro T already put Maruders in front of marines. And the idea is cool, cause sometimes your army just has a raven for dt. But in general I'd keep my expensive raven in the back, knowing if I lost it I'd have to swap my reactored star port again.
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On December 19 2011 16:05 teamamerica wrote:
Cool idea but sorry your example engagement is the worst example fucking ever. Firstly, a normal midgame situation had the toss up an armor upgrade to your attack upgrade. Secondly your army wins that fight handily anyway. The auto turret blockin could have just as easily been done by Maruders.
Midgame Terran army, that's really heavy marines, not behind on upgrades, with ghosts, and medivacs. Beats Toss army without any sentry for Gaurdian shield, no AOE, and not that many units. No shit. This really needs to be emphasized more. As T it's my dream come true to see a fight like that. I don't know how you got to that battle but unless you traded some heavy blows early, having only 1 1 at 20 minutes is inexcusable. Especially for a toss going that style. And he had no AoE so of course heavy marines wins, with the upgrades and the ghosts and just everything being in your favor. The battle you see in the picture, including the upgrades and bases etc, is just something so easy for the Terran to wins, it baffles me why you think this showcases anything.
Pro T already put Maruders in front of marines. And the idea is cool, cause sometimes your army just has a raven for dt. But in general I'd keep my expensive raven in the back, knowing if I lost it I'd have to swap my reactored star port again.
I agree that it's not the best example, in my write-up I acknowledge that it's somewhat ideal. But I didn't have a better example yet, I will include a replay when I go up against a better balanced composition. It still makes a big difference.
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On December 19 2011 15:38 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell. so by your logic every thing that has energy is useless vs toss. just have the ravens on another hotkey and dont let them lead your army and get feedbacked....fedback..... u get the point. the same way if a toss make templar he's smart enough to not stick them 10 feet infront of his army and act as a very expensive ineffective shield
Yeah, always confused me. Medivacs get hit by feed back from time to time, but terran players still build them. Yet any other unit that can be hit by feed back with the exception of the ghost, is useless. The raven is a plump target for sure, but using the auto turret before attacks would make sure it did not have enough engery to be knocked out by a single feed back.
The auto turret is impressive even when it is not upgraded. It has 150 hp, 1 armor, lasts 180 seconds(that is well over 10 times the lenght of a single forcefield), does 10 damage as about the same fire rate as an unstimmed marine. As speed bumps for zealots go, it is pretty awesome. Also remember that if zealots pop their charge attempting to kill the auto turrent, they have to wait 14 seconds before they can charge again. That is a long time to slow walk toward a bio army.
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I think it would be better to like bring like 5 barracks with you in every attack.
It's just 750 minerals, no gas and come with much more hp. Also compared to raven they are immune to high templar. You don't even need techlabs on your starport so you can make more of those super handy medivacs. Protoss usually has to build pylons closer to your base to kill you so it's only fair you bring buildings closer to them too. Also once you land those you can reinforce your attack with sick 5 marines every 30 seconds. Then again it slows down your army a bit but your army is still going to be like 50% more mobile than mech and buildings even fly so how is he going to kill those midflight?
Sick idea to say so myself, I report to you later.
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league?
I mean the turrets were great, but werent the reason you won the battle. The PDD was much more valuable
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PDD against zealot and archons?? im not so sure... turrets were fine. And I think Ravens could be viable but only in certain situations like facing dts at the beggining. Will try to use them if the game is appropiate.
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On December 19 2011 10:49 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 10:38 iAmJeffReY wrote:soo...... why not just 1-2, or even use banshees more? since there light units stalkers don't do bonus damage to banshees, and they can cloack......... ya know honestly why don't terrans use hellions all game round VS zerg? since mutaling usually uses alot of lings. why not get some BF hellions........... with a reactored factory. to roast those lings? its like....... " why composition? when i can eather go 1-2 unit comps?" its interesting how strong sky terran, with tanks is, also its not about going straight "bio" or "sky" or "mech".
Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air. Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting. And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas? Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time. "Upgrades dude. Terran upgrades are specific. Infantry only does infantry. Mech only does mech on the ground. Air only does air." -makes sence but whats stopping you from using your armory(s) "Also, edit posts. Don't multi post. One - you can't type for shit. Two - you're not saying anything that needs to be bumping this thread" - I'm not multiposting, i am just posting, i misspell simply because i type fast, and how am i "bumping" if I am jsut expressing some strategeric knowlege? "Back to the point. Hellion vs any race all game take too much baby sitting. Hellions don't win in straight up fights, they win when micro'd and kiting." - the battlehellion( the new firebat) will allow terran to finally micro less to win more then usual......wait that sounded wrong. but pretty much your saying is that like every terran unit if used properly can do well? or are you implying that you don't want to micro your units to win engagements? "And terran T1 don't "beat the snot" out of anything once the other race matches upgrades with stim shells shields and medics. Charge/collsai, sling speed + upgrades and mutas?" -MM( not including the ghosts, medivacs or vikings) is generally the only units used much in TVP -Marines are used til the point where theres tier 3 out in the field and its 25 minutes + in a game and terrans still haven't made anything other then marine tank..... in TVZ( then later they get ghosts, vikings, and medivacs(mid game for vacs) -so pretty much the marine does the killing in TVZ and the MM does the killing in TVP "Look at late game, what walks over marines? Slings. Chargelots. Both T1 units. What stops them from 'running over'? Lings? Tanks. And lots of them, and micro studder steps and concave spreads. Chargelots? Bigger concaves and backing/kiting them for a looong time" - then why not mix in blue flame hellions if they roast zealots and zerglings??? and give map control and scouting?
Well bro Marines are what kill everything>???
You realize Marines are only effective in high level?
do you think it is easy to be cost efficient with a marine ball? just do the math. 20 marines is 40 zerglings we turn 5 of the zerglings into banelings, 5 banelings and 35 zerglings vs 20 marines early game zerg is going to be ahead. trust me
The only reason marines kill everything is cause they attack both air and ground. they have great mobility. they have pretty good attack speed and range. they are pretty much the protoss stalker but with no blink and no gas.
And you QQ does not help the thread, well guess what mutas are made to a point where it is impossible to move out as terran.
Also ill give you a reason why terrans marine and other units are strong.
-we are not zerg we can not produce 100 zerglings after a fight we must build one unit at a time.
-we are not toss we can not warp in 12 stalkers and crono the warpgates so we build another 12 stalkers in 5 seconds.
-we do not have creep spread for our units to move faster into the battle field.
-we do not have any form of retreating/ blink or zerglings run away pretty fast
well what does this tell you.
we terrans must have each units walk through the battle field in danger of getting pickedoff, mutas.
This means we have to spend more resources in either proctecting the path of reinforcing/ turrets or spend apm to mannually reinforce in groups which is not smart.
So since we have a low reinforcements we must do with what we have.... this means out units have to hold out in the battle field better than our opponent or our horrible macro mechanics will make it impossible to fight with a decent trade.
Jus think if terrans have zerglings instead of marines, roaches instead of maruaders. if we have 12 barracks. 6 with reactor, we would be pumping out 24 zerglins at a time..... and 6 roaches at a time... im pretty sure that is same as 2 larvae injects...
Just think if terrans had zealots instead of marines, stakers instead of maruaders. we would not be able get the units to the battle field as fast as 12 warp gate...
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On December 20 2011 04:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 15:38 kill619 wrote:On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell. so by your logic every thing that has energy is useless vs toss. just have the ravens on another hotkey and dont let them lead your army and get feedbacked....fedback..... u get the point. the same way if a toss make templar he's smart enough to not stick them 10 feet infront of his army and act as a very expensive ineffective shield Yeah, always confused me. Medivacs get hit by feed back from time to time, but terran players still build them. Yet any other unit that can be hit by feed back with the exception of the ghost, is useless. The raven is a plump target for sure, but using the auto turret before attacks would make sure it did not have enough engery to be knocked out by a single feed back. The auto turret is impressive even when it is not upgraded. It has 150 hp, 1 armor, lasts 180 seconds(that is well over 10 times the lenght of a single forcefield), does 10 damage as about the same fire rate as an unstimmed marine. As speed bumps for zealots go, it is pretty awesome. Also remember that if zealots pop their charge attempting to kill the auto turrent, they have to wait 14 seconds before they can charge again. That is a long time to slow walk toward a bio army.
Medivacs are less likely to build up energy as they are constantly drained from stim + damage. Plus they stay further back in the army. Ravens and ghosts are usually in the front and spend their energy in large chunks rather than over time.
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On December 20 2011 05:10 scrub96 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 04:15 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2011 15:38 kill619 wrote:On December 19 2011 04:00 Fuzer wrote:
Sir....
The only feedback I can give you about this is that the only reason why this doesnt work is FEEDBACK.
Ravens in TvP are useless, because of the one spell. so by your logic every thing that has energy is useless vs toss. just have the ravens on another hotkey and dont let them lead your army and get feedbacked....fedback..... u get the point. the same way if a toss make templar he's smart enough to not stick them 10 feet infront of his army and act as a very expensive ineffective shield Yeah, always confused me. Medivacs get hit by feed back from time to time, but terran players still build them. Yet any other unit that can be hit by feed back with the exception of the ghost, is useless. The raven is a plump target for sure, but using the auto turret before attacks would make sure it did not have enough engery to be knocked out by a single feed back. The auto turret is impressive even when it is not upgraded. It has 150 hp, 1 armor, lasts 180 seconds(that is well over 10 times the lenght of a single forcefield), does 10 damage as about the same fire rate as an unstimmed marine. As speed bumps for zealots go, it is pretty awesome. Also remember that if zealots pop their charge attempting to kill the auto turrent, they have to wait 14 seconds before they can charge again. That is a long time to slow walk toward a bio army. Medivacs are less likely to build up energy as they are constantly drained from stim + damage. Plus they stay further back in the army. Ravens and ghosts are usually in the front and spend their energy in large chunks rather than over time.
So if you kept them farther back and spent the engery over time, feed back would be less of an issue? The auto turrent last long enough where it could be placed to control an area, rather than in combat.
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On December 19 2011 05:06 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 04:49 MrRicewife wrote:
But.... where do you get the gas??? terran units are mineral heavy, so course gas is in great ammount.. also VS zerg ravens can save you scans.. and PDD blocks mutalisk shots
I'm sorry but dropships are expensive, vikings are expensive, and terran upgrades are expensive.
Do you know how much gas you need for a reactor starport? If you have any sort of macro, you need LOTS.
Also, a raven is a starport tech lab... So now I need to build two starports, 1 just for a raven? And that will probably get a feedback almost immediately?
Thanks but Raven's are a fantastic unit in TvT. I will use Ravens in TvP only in the situation OP had, and probably only one.
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On December 20 2011 05:21 MrRicewife wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 05:06 Zergrusher wrote:On December 19 2011 04:49 MrRicewife wrote:
But.... where do you get the gas??? terran units are mineral heavy, so course gas is in great ammount.. also VS zerg ravens can save you scans.. and PDD blocks mutalisk shots I'm sorry but dropships are expensive, vikings are expensive, and terran upgrades are expensive. Do you know how much gas you need for a reactor starport? If you have any sort of macro, you need LOTS. Also, a raven is a starport tech lab... So now I need to build two starports, 1 just for a raven? And that will probably get a feedback almost immediately? Thanks but Raven's are a fantastic unit in TvT. I will use Ravens in TvP only in the situation OP had, and probably only one.
Couldn't you switch on a tech lab, build 1 or 2 and then switch it back? Once you see zealot/archon, the colossi production is going to slow down.
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I think it is viable in TvP to be rocking two starports, however mainly for banshees which are actually exceedingly effective against protoss given their limited anti air options. Opening 1port cloaked banshee in every game can be entirely standard, and just keep making banshees out of that starport. Occasionally producing a raven to kill observers to keep your banshees cloaked is entirely reasonable, since two vikings can easily kill any observer as soon as the raven spots it. Add on many rax after the 1-1-1 opening, and then add on the second starport and switch onto reactor.
This gives a reason to have 1-2 ravens out on the field, which gives the OP some standing to start talking about how to use auto turrets in battle. In truly standard TvP this is entirely useless since the raven is just not a part of MMMVG.
Banshees are excellent harass and can even be uncorporated into your army as additional fire support, which can cloak to go chew on your opponent's army if the opportunity presents itself. Keep killing observers and they will stay useful all game, and to do that you vikings and either many scans, or 1-2 ravens.
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On December 19 2011 11:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:But look at any TvP game, how many tech lab starports do you have? Starports without a reactor leads to you losing to collsai. Tech lab starports + time to make 2-3 ravens...they just don't pay for themselves to be worth it. And what knowledge? To be crass, you sound as if you are barely even into platinum with your theorycraft. Also, what's to stop you from using your armories to upgrade? How about the deathball of collsai chargelot HT, or ht zeal archon? How will you deal with it? When he's 3/0/3 you'll be what.. 1/1 on mech and bio? If you focus on upgrades, you won't have any units etc. It's stupid tbh. And really? PDD doesn't even phase 20+ stalkers. 1 volley and energy is gone for 100 energy? Not worth it. Show nested quote +Because Ravens are a spellcasting unit, they don't rely on Armor+Attack upgrades like Vehicles and Ships. MMM has plenty of DPS, the only thing we lack for vs the Protoss deathball is survivability. Armor is important in TvZ and TvT because both races have many rapid-fire units. But Protoss doesn't have any ground units like that. Which means in that matchup, raw HP is the most important survivability statistic. Ravens bring 440+ HP to the field each (Raven+2 Turrets). Which is almost as good as a Thor, except its faster, can fly, provides detection, and has the option to PDD if the P gets too Stalker heavy.
Although to be effective you need +2 building armor, and 1-2 raven upgrades like energy starting upgrade, and durable materials and building attack range?
There is nothing stopping us from making more than 1 Starport. Just because it's standard to factory scout in TvP doesn't mean that everyone must do it.
A reactor is 50/50, a Starport is 150/100. If all you are doing with your Starport is making Medivacs and Vikings, there's no reason why you couldn't simply make 2 Starports without addons instead. It only costs 100/50 more than the Reactored version. You don't need to add the tech labs to the Starports right away, it's only if/when you float gas that you add on the techlabs to flush your gas into Ravens.
Besides, if you are TRULY worried about Collosus, you will need 2 Reactored Starports anyway. You should already have plenty of Reactors from your Raxes in TvP. So the only limiting factor is the number of Starports themselves.
Also, Autourrets do not need +2 building armor OR any Raven upgrades to be effective. If you actually read the entire post instead of the first line, then you'd understand my argument. :p Anyway, it's silly to invest in Raven upgrades if you're only making 2 of them. The point that the OP is trying to make is that the Ravens *don't* need to do massive damage like most gas heavy units in TvZ and TvT. In TvP, all they need to do is sink your gas effectively.
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On December 20 2011 11:38 kNightLite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 11:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:But look at any TvP game, how many tech lab starports do you have? Starports without a reactor leads to you losing to collsai. Tech lab starports + time to make 2-3 ravens...they just don't pay for themselves to be worth it. And what knowledge? To be crass, you sound as if you are barely even into platinum with your theorycraft. Also, what's to stop you from using your armories to upgrade? How about the deathball of collsai chargelot HT, or ht zeal archon? How will you deal with it? When he's 3/0/3 you'll be what.. 1/1 on mech and bio? If you focus on upgrades, you won't have any units etc. It's stupid tbh. And really? PDD doesn't even phase 20+ stalkers. 1 volley and energy is gone for 100 energy? Not worth it. Because Ravens are a spellcasting unit, they don't rely on Armor+Attack upgrades like Vehicles and Ships. MMM has plenty of DPS, the only thing we lack for vs the Protoss deathball is survivability. Armor is important in TvZ and TvT because both races have many rapid-fire units. But Protoss doesn't have any ground units like that. Which means in that matchup, raw HP is the most important survivability statistic. Ravens bring 440+ HP to the field each (Raven+2 Turrets). Which is almost as good as a Thor, except its faster, can fly, provides detection, and has the option to PDD if the P gets too Stalker heavy.
Although to be effective you need +2 building armor, and 1-2 raven upgrades like energy starting upgrade, and durable materials and building attack range? There is nothing stopping us from making more than 1 Starport. Just because it's standard to factory scout in TvP doesn't mean that everyone must do it. A reactor is 50/50, a Starport is 150/100. If all you are doing with your Starport is making Medivacs and Vikings, there's no reason why you couldn't simply make 2 Starports without addons instead. It only costs 100/50 more than the Reactored version. You don't need to add the tech labs to the Starports right away, it's only if/when you float gas that you add on the techlabs to flush your gas into Ravens. Besides, if you are TRULY worried about Collosus, you will need 2 Reactored Starports anyway. You should already have plenty of Reactors from your Raxes in TvP. So the only limiting factor is the number of Starports themselves. Also, Autourrets do not need +2 building armor OR any Raven upgrades to be effective. If you actually read the entire post instead of the first line, then you'd understand my argument. :p Anyway, it's silly to invest in Raven upgrades if you're only making 2 of them. The point that the OP is trying to make is that the Ravens *don't* need to do massive damage like most gas heavy units in TvZ and TvT. In TvP, all they need to do is sink your gas effectively.
You do realize that if one HT is nearby, your raven is dead? Raven spells range are ridiculously small. I'd love to see you sneak in double starport, instead of reactor off factor into one reactor starport. That initial total or 300/200 plus 2 medics makes it 500/400 as opposed to the already neccessary fac, so it's not added in, 150/100 + 2 medics 350/300. That's a huge difference in time as to when you'd be able to not only get the starports, but the initial two medics.
You're only basically advocating using the raven as a way to force an unnecessary charge? A 100/200 unit, just one, for one charge... I'd take the 2 ghosts, as 400/200 is a much safer, sounder investment in TvP that is 100% guaranteed to do damage if you land one emp.
The only time I can see a raven being useful is when one sticks to constant DT harassment, be it through warp prisms or proxy pylons, while expanding with sentries/archon/chargelot or sentry/collsai to defend with. I just don't see it even being 'good' or doing ANY damage. It's feedback bait. That's it. Warp in anywhere nearby, and pop there it goes.
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On December 20 2011 11:38 kNightLite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 11:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:But look at any TvP game, how many tech lab starports do you have? Starports without a reactor leads to you losing to collsai. Tech lab starports + time to make 2-3 ravens...they just don't pay for themselves to be worth it. And what knowledge? To be crass, you sound as if you are barely even into platinum with your theorycraft. Also, what's to stop you from using your armories to upgrade? How about the deathball of collsai chargelot HT, or ht zeal archon? How will you deal with it? When he's 3/0/3 you'll be what.. 1/1 on mech and bio? If you focus on upgrades, you won't have any units etc. It's stupid tbh. And really? PDD doesn't even phase 20+ stalkers. 1 volley and energy is gone for 100 energy? Not worth it. Because Ravens are a spellcasting unit, they don't rely on Armor+Attack upgrades like Vehicles and Ships. MMM has plenty of DPS, the only thing we lack for vs the Protoss deathball is survivability. Armor is important in TvZ and TvT because both races have many rapid-fire units. But Protoss doesn't have any ground units like that. Which means in that matchup, raw HP is the most important survivability statistic. Ravens bring 440+ HP to the field each (Raven+2 Turrets). Which is almost as good as a Thor, except its faster, can fly, provides detection, and has the option to PDD if the P gets too Stalker heavy.
Although to be effective you need +2 building armor, and 1-2 raven upgrades like energy starting upgrade, and durable materials and building attack range? There is nothing stopping us from making more than 1 Starport. Just because it's standard to factory scout in TvP doesn't mean that everyone must do it. A reactor is 50/50, a Starport is 150/100. If all you are doing with your Starport is making Medivacs and Vikings, there's no reason why you couldn't simply make 2 Starports without addons instead. It only costs 100/50 more than the Reactored version. You don't need to add the tech labs to the Starports right away, it's only if/when you float gas that you add on the techlabs to flush your gas into Ravens. Besides, if you are TRULY worried about Collosus, you will need 2 Reactored Starports anyway. You should already have plenty of Reactors from your Raxes in TvP. So the only limiting factor is the number of Starports themselves. Also, Autourrets do not need +2 building armor OR any Raven upgrades to be effective. If you actually read the entire post instead of the first line, then you'd understand my argument. :p Anyway, it's silly to invest in Raven upgrades if you're only making 2 of them. The point that the OP is trying to make is that the Ravens *don't* need to do massive damage like most gas heavy units in TvZ and TvT. In TvP, all they need to do is sink your gas effectively.
I fully agree. Many terrans feel like they need to get the reactored port so they can pump medivacs ASAP! because that's what the pro's do. Meanwhile they just sit there with the 4 medivacs and dabble in drops. I think having the second starport is a much better alternative as you only delay your medivacs by ~15-20 sec and then you have the infrastructure in place to effectively counter colossus (double reactor vikings or banshees). Additionally, if they are not going colossus you can easily throw down a tech lab or 2 and supplement your army with a strong air contingent.
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Terran air does piss against a mass of chargelots. That's the issue. You're wasting money. And collsai in the late game fade away once change and upgrades are prominent as charge HT archon is a cheaper, and vastly superior army in terms of remax, health, and potential damage for cost.
Banshees take like three years to pop a 3/0/3 zealot, and therefore aid very little in TvP unless you go strictly air, or do a timing push before many upgrades occur, such as blink, charge, and or storm/ht tech.
Again it just ends up hurting you more than you know. It can be very useful in situations, and to be honest, I do it a LOT of the time in TvP if I can snipe a upgrade (Charge) before it finishes I will go into banshees just to harass with drops to draw toss away to stim push the main. It's just against chargelots in late game ravens and or banshees are a drop in the bucket when it comes to usefulness compared to other potential units. A banshee is 50 off a ghost. A ghost can actually do damage in TvP. A viking has 9 range, equal to collsai. It can sit in sweet spots and abuse terrain to snipe collsai. A viking can be double produced from a reactor starport, an easy transition.
The double port timing is a HUGE sink and leaves you way too vunerable to timing pushes, and delays units and upgrades. Therefore, expos are delayed, or you cut the upgrades and plain lose.
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The raven is a great unit in TvP. Frequently, in the end-game, the terrans will have an excess of gas and 1-2 ravens will definitely make a big difference. However, I don't think it's viable for current levels of play because of the multi-tasking and micro requirements. However, I think in the future, we'll see more pros use it!
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This is pretty cool, although it seems very situational. Supply depots would be better to block the zealots, but obviously if you are caught off guard you can't just build them. It seems good if they are going DT, especially since you save scans, but I personally wouldn't get a raven just for this purpose.
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On December 19 2011 05:05 cive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 04:49 MrRicewife wrote:
But.... where do you get the gas??? Good question. From looking at OP's army composition, it is so heavily marine based that a storm or a colossus would've destroyed the army really badly. By allocating gas to marauders the terran army survives late game AOE damage from protoss. IMO raven is a TvT unit. The gas dump just cannot be justified unless you are going 1/1/1.
but remember that even if youre pumping pure marauders and vikings/medivacs (LOL...) youre still only going to need 4 gases. On any pro terran stream, you'll see them taking only 3-4 gas even if theyre on 4 base just because of how mineral heavy MMMV is. adding a raven or two isn't going to hurt your gas at all.
to the OP: thank you for new ideas and innovation 
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EPT![[image loading]](http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg197/scaled.php?server=197&filename=raven1.png&res=medium)
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![[image loading]](http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg819/scaled.php?server=819&filename=58469874.png&res=medium)
![[image loading]](http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg4/scaled.php?server=4&filename=raven4.png&res=medium)
