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On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;
if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen
Way to ruin my newfound hope that I actually have a chance in TvP 
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Man, you're like John Madden over here. I wish we had more of this sort of in-depth analysis more often. I very much appreciate the attention to tactics and leveraging the comparative advantage that Terran has in this situation. Standard TvP on Tal'darim Altar feels quite futile to many of us 
Excellent work!
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That marine/marauder control also works when you go bio vZ. Pull marines to the back to split have marauders take out any mismicroed banelings.
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On December 18 2011 17:23 pQylling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;
if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen Way to ruin my newfound hope that I actually have a chance in TvP
i dont think you can "watch and learn" this sorf of movement, you need a lot of games and experience with every single game situation and feel what you are allowed to do by your opponent. its still good to understand what pros do and why tho.
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@Angel_ and Ghanburighan: Great to see other Rocky Horror Picture Show fans in the house.
@Huitzi: I'm only platinum, so there may be a limit to how much I can help you out there.
@KawaiiRice: That's actually a hugely important point that you bring up. When drop play began I think Noblesse had ~30 food advantage (~150 to ~120). I imagine the lack of ghosts and the upgrade disadvantage really kept him from wanting to engage head up.
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On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;
if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen
Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.
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On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;
if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.
If noblesse did his drop at 14 minutes, toss would be able to defend it, maybe losing a pylon or a robo or w/e.
After the defense, more often then not, they will be able to push out with the army they have and crush the terran while building reinforcements in base to deal with the other drops. It happens in mid-master level play a lot, i drop to kill of a few pylons powering gateways and the main nexus. The toss pushes out and kills me with chargelots/ forcefields and 3 collosus.
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On December 19 2011 00:16 Apolex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;
if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience. If noblesse did his drop at 14 minutes, toss would be able to defend it, maybe losing a pylon or a robo or w/e. After the defense, more often then not, they will be able to push out with the army they have and crush the terran while building reinforcements in base to deal with the other drops. It happens in mid-master level play a lot, i drop to kill of a few pylons powering gateways and the main nexus. The toss pushes out and kills me with chargelots/ forcefields and 3 collosus.
Given this, it is possible that provoking the large engagement was part of Noblesse's plan, intending to force an army trade to provide him with the room to perform these drop antics.
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Thank you for this, was very helpful analysis
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On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;
if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.
um... so i shouldnt post?
basic push n drop stuff is fine yea but all this dropping around and around in every base for 4 minutes is not standard by any means and that was what I was referring to by "drop antics"
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On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;
if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.
What does the skill gap really have to do with anything? The OP is an analysis of very high level play, and kawaii made a very good point (which didn't immediately occur to me, and probably a lot of other players).
Also your point of toss overreacting is a little off, even players at high diamond are conscious of a small drop at one base could and usually is followed up by a big push at another base.
Also I don't think you are taking into account how noblesse sniped pretty much every observer on the map, something most players who are not pro are not going to do, so toss players below that level are likely to have more intel on the map. But at the end of the day, kawaii's point is extremely valid that toss will have more than enough to deflect these drop antics without any big prior engagements, your point is pretty much "you can rely on toss making a mistake and overreacting" Is that how you like to win? hoping your opponent makes a mistake? (that is quite frankly not as common as it used to be)
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Now that's how you do an analysis.
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One of the better analysis I have ever read! Good job!
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Don't give those dirty terrans any idea haha. Protoss player chiming in.
Excellent analysis! One of the better threads in the strategy forum I have read in a while.
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On December 18 2011 15:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Moved to SC2 Strategy.
That must have felt strange.
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On December 19 2011 02:37 Whynaut wrote:That must have felt strange.
Very strange indeed. I didn't put it there myself because I didn't think it fit with any of the declared tags. It's very rewarding to have it moved there for me 
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No, to me it doesn't matter the rank, what matters is the paths for drops and the paths for flanks, etc. A great strategical mind and you have it. If you're still willing to be my coach, I'll be grateful, I'm Huitzi and #563. I work on my maps and positioning a lot, from the days that I played Company of Heroes, I worked so hard on it to get to the top of the ladder, I want to do the same with SC2 but I need the help of great minds like yours.
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Kawaii is quite right that with ideal play a protoss can shutdown this kind of harassment. However very few protoss actually manage to do this. These sorts of tactics can work brilliantly vs most players below GM, and occasionally the odd pro player as well.
Remember that the dreaded chargelot/archon build doesn't have blink stalkers so you can drop at your leisure Or indeed many other greedy/aggressive builds that protoss often use.
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wow great job analysis!!
no idea how long it took for you to analyze all this, but its much appreciated
as a protoss/terran player, the only way toss can stop all this harass is to divide his army and leave blink stalkers in his main, and have fantastic multi-tasking. even if they shut down the harass, you'll force them to devote more forces back home and delay any pushes that com ut.
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EPT
