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TvP Tactical Movement: Noblesse's Terran Clinic

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Arcane86
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States68 Posts
December 18 2011 03:49 GMT
#1
Many Terrans in the current meta-game are having difficulty with the match-up against Protoss, particularly as it puts many Terrans in an unfamiliar position - having the weaker, more mobile army. This dynamic has been constant throughout SC2’s TvP history, but has incrementally varied with patch changes. Notably, the EMP radius reduction has emphasized the importance of the Bio-ball’s mobility advantage. The real question then is how to take advantage of that mobility.

Asking this question will usually get you one of two answers, both of which are, in my opinion, incomplete.

1: Micro
2: Multi-pronged attacks

While both answers are absolutely true, they merely open more important questions that are often left unanswered. How do I use micromanagement to even out a low-tech engagement, and how do I use multipronged attacks in a fashion that abuses Protoss immobility and allows me to gain an advantage?

Extensive knowledge of army arrangement can maximize the damage output of any army, and extensive map knowledge provides drop-focused play with phenomenal evasive opportunities that leave the protoss army grasping at shadows. In a recent IPL Team Arena Challenge (ColMVP v. Dignitas), Noblesse, the upstart from MVP, gave us a glorious demonstration.

(note: Day[9] ran a daily on drop-based play about a year ago covering the basics.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-248-dealing-with-duckload-4706143
Feel free to consider this daily as an intro. Here were going to get into something a bit more elaborate.)


Tal’Darim Altar - MVPNoblesse (BL spawn) v. DignitasBischu (TR spawn)

On this massive map, both players opened with rapid expansions. To focus on the tactics, I will to dispense with the interim, and move to the first engagement of interest.

Large Engagement:14:00

Noblesse brought his army to prod at the expansion, provoking the full engagement from Bischu. Let’s take a look at the armies that met.

[image loading]
They have bigger guns, and thicker shields. Oh, and dicing ones have an extra dose of crazy.

That number of upgrade-advantaged chargelots make most Terrans tremble in their proverbial boots. Stutter-step micro is required, but not enough. Knowing this, Noblesse performed an impromptu army re-arrangement to maximize his bio-ball’s effectiveness.

Let’s begin by remembering the relative effectiveness of various units involved. Marauders do minimal damage to zealots, but are quite sturdy as stone. Marines dish out all kinds of pain, but are flimsy as feathers. Once zealots close, they tear apart the marines, rapidly disemboweling the bio-ball’s damage output.

Keeping this in mind, let’s check out the fight.

[image loading]
It's just a jump to the left

At first this seems like a straightforward bio-ball v. chargelot battle. Noblesse, however, paid strict attention to his army arrangement. His marines were clustered to the right, marauders to the left, both groups equally exposed.

He devised a solution. He moved his marine-heavy group behind the marauder-heavy cluster, leaving him with marines free to fire and marauders bearing the damage.

With impeccable stutter-step, streaming reinforcements, and this critical army re-arrangement, the young terran eked out an unlikely victory in this battle.

[image loading]
CatsPajamas started singing the Mighty Morphin Power Ranger's Theme just after this.

Winning this battle, he prepared for the next.

Multipronged Attack: 16:45

When discussing an elaborate multipronged attack, it’s important to examine the terrain closely. There are central ground paths available, but other paths are opened by drop-based play. Let’s look at the main movement paths around key engagement points in Bischu’s base.

[image loading]
MS paint ftw!


The focus of mobility based play is that any two engagement points connected by drop paths are an opportunity to outmaneuver the ground army.

So how does one use this knowledge?

Let’s take a look at a multi-pronged attack from MVP’s young gun. Remember that his goal here was not to kill Bischu outright, but to set Bischu behind.

We begin with an attack at the third and a drop at the natural. Because Noblesse had diligently killed Observers, Noblesse’s army size was unknown to Bischu. So in the dark, his entire army was drawn north, exposing his natural to a drop.

[image loading]
Poking and prodding...with guns!


Noblesse’s next decision was driven by moving each component of his army to a new point drop-path-connected engagement point.

Bischu chose to chase down the main army. The natural, where Noblesse’s drop landed, was the most accessible for the main army with Bischu hot on his tail. Because of this, as Noblesse moved his main army there, he rotated his drop force to the main. This little tactical tango kept Noblesse throwing punches.

[image loading]
And a step to the riiiiight


Noblesse’s main army then used its aerial mobility to slip through Bischu’s grasp.

With the Terran army evacuating, Bischu finally moved to deal with the drop force that had rotated to the main. Though Bischu was ready to smother the paltry remaining force, the young Terran kept the pressure on, slipping the original drop force to the third, and re-dropping his primary force on the natural, where only a smattering of stalkers remained to greet the army.

[image loading]
Did you miss me?

This furious battle raged across Bischu’s base for over a minute, but Noblesse had kept busy at home. The minimap revealed the massive macro advantage he had established amidst the chaos with his slippery drop-based play.

The might of Noblesse’s newfound production fell like an lead fist upon Bichu’s skull; the protoss forces were crushed.

[image loading]
Glory out of Chaos.


This is just one example of elaborate troop movement confounding the Protoss army’s position. Noblesse’s knowledge of Bischu’s army positioning let Noblesse draw Bischu’s forces in futile circles, as though Bischu’s army were a cat chasing a laser-pointer. Bischu repeated similar feats on Terminus in the following matchup, if you’re looking for more examples (links below).

Credit where credit is due: this game was played for IPLs Team Arena Challenge between ColMVP and Dignitas. All screenshots were taken from their VODs

Tal’Darim Atlar Game: http://www.youtube.com/user/IGNProLeague?blend=1&ob=video-mustangbase#p/u/3/SCtW6zEYGt4
Terminus game:
http://www.youtube.com/user/IGNProLeague?blend=1&ob=video-mustangbase#p/u/6/xQV2D0JRv04
There is no Cow Level
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
December 18 2011 04:00 GMT
#2
Wow. FANTASTIC analysis! It was very nice to read.

My most recent game was a TvP on Tal'Darim where I had thrown away the game with massive passivity, mismicro, and general sloppiness against a powerful Protoss deathball. Perhaps this analysis may provide some inspiration for my TvP woes.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
iamperfection
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9642 Posts
December 18 2011 04:46 GMT
#3
Why is this in blogs when its 10 times better than half the stuff in the actual strategy section. 5/5
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168&currentpage=78#1551
rUiNati0n
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1155 Posts
December 18 2011 05:07 GMT
#4
This is a great analysis 5/5. I really like how you highlighted potential drop paths.
eating corn while thinking about eating more corn
nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
December 18 2011 05:38 GMT
#5
very nice analysis,time to practise the shuttle step !!
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
Ethereal_Starcraft
Profile Joined September 2010
United States78 Posts
December 18 2011 05:55 GMT
#6
You just blew my mind!
I imagine that this took much effort so... 5/5
I would never have noticed that he re positioned the marines behind his marauders to maximize the lifetime and DPS of his bio-ball, then split for drops.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 18 2011 06:04 GMT
#7
Moved to SC2 Strategy.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
December 18 2011 06:28 GMT
#8
Oh my fucking god mind blown 10/10
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
Theovide
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden914 Posts
December 18 2011 06:35 GMT
#9
Ooo, I like this format for guides. Fancy pictures <3!
wOrD yO
Profile Joined December 2011
Australia119 Posts
December 18 2011 07:06 GMT
#10
book marked! such a well written clinic :D
wOrD.339
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
December 18 2011 07:27 GMT
#11
pictures AND rocky horror?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!

i may love you.
Huitzi
Profile Joined November 2011
United States33 Posts
December 18 2011 07:30 GMT
#12
Would you like to be my coach and rewiew my replays Arcane? I'm ~ 800 pts master terran and this was awesome. Great stuff!
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
December 18 2011 07:41 GMT
#13
great analysis, never saw that marauder / marine move before
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
December 18 2011 07:43 GMT
#14
Great post, and I love the RHPS references. I learned a lot today!
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
pQylling
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark139 Posts
December 18 2011 07:50 GMT
#15
Incredible! Very nice read and analysis. Thank you very much!
rebuffering
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2436 Posts
December 18 2011 07:59 GMT
#16
fucking awesome! i think im going to go look at the maps in my pool, and really learn where the best drop positions are, i just had a 32 min TvP on Taldarim, and got totally raped, i mean, it wasnt even close, letting a toss macro, is death apparently, so time to use some terran mobilty to get me in the Win column Vs toss. Also, is it just me, or is TvP and TvZ almost identical besides the unit compositions. It just seems like terran has to Always apply pressure on P and Z or late game can become incredibally frustrating. Thx for the read, GG GL!
http://www.twitch.tv/rebufferingg
gibb
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden288 Posts
December 18 2011 07:59 GMT
#17
Nice!
Well done sir
Manners.
Hossinaut
Profile Joined June 2011
United States453 Posts
December 18 2011 08:14 GMT
#18
I fucking love write ups like this... All the pictures help so much in keeping me super interested, it makes me feel like a child learning new things, and makes it seem to be something more applicable that I can do in my own games (if i was terran and a boss <3)

I loved the write up to say the least, this strategery is impressive and really cool to read about and learn from <3
Keep it up <3
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10332 Posts
December 18 2011 08:16 GMT
#19
Good job This should help a lot of people out and give em more ideas. Knowing potential routes to harass/attack like the ones Noblesse used beforehand is a must if you are serious about improving .
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 08:18:08
December 18 2011 08:16 GMT
#20
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen
@KawaiiRiceLighT
pQylling
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark139 Posts
December 18 2011 08:23 GMT
#21
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Way to ruin my newfound hope that I actually have a chance in TvP
Senorcuidado
Profile Joined May 2010
United States700 Posts
December 18 2011 08:31 GMT
#22
Man, you're like John Madden over here. I wish we had more of this sort of in-depth analysis more often. I very much appreciate the attention to tactics and leveraging the comparative advantage that Terran has in this situation. Standard TvP on Tal'darim Altar feels quite futile to many of us

Excellent work!
slmw
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Finland233 Posts
December 18 2011 08:38 GMT
#23
Amazing read.
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
December 18 2011 10:15 GMT
#24
That marine/marauder control also works when you go bio vZ. Pull marines to the back to split have marauders take out any mismicroed banelings.
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
December 18 2011 10:59 GMT
#25
On December 18 2011 17:23 pQylling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Way to ruin my newfound hope that I actually have a chance in TvP

i dont think you can "watch and learn" this sorf of movement, you need a lot of games and experience with every single game situation and feel what you are allowed to do by your opponent. its still good to understand what pros do and why tho.
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
Arcane86
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States68 Posts
December 18 2011 14:47 GMT
#26
@Angel_ and Ghanburighan: Great to see other Rocky Horror Picture Show fans in the house.

@Huitzi: I'm only platinum, so there may be a limit to how much I can help you out there.

@KawaiiRice: That's actually a hugely important point that you bring up. When drop play began I think Noblesse had ~30 food advantage (~150 to ~120). I imagine the lack of ghosts and the upgrade disadvantage really kept him from wanting to engage head up.
There is no Cow Level
statikg
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada930 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 15:05:05
December 18 2011 15:02 GMT
#27
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.
Apolex
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada103 Posts
December 18 2011 15:16 GMT
#28
On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.



If noblesse did his drop at 14 minutes, toss would be able to defend it, maybe losing a pylon or a robo or w/e.
After the defense, more often then not, they will be able to push out with the army they have and crush the terran while building reinforcements in base to deal with the other drops. It happens in mid-master level play a lot, i drop to kill of a few pylons powering gateways and the main nexus. The toss pushes out and kills me with chargelots/ forcefields and 3 collosus.
Jealousy is a sin.
Arcane86
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States68 Posts
December 18 2011 16:29 GMT
#29
On December 19 2011 00:16 Apolex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.



If noblesse did his drop at 14 minutes, toss would be able to defend it, maybe losing a pylon or a robo or w/e.
After the defense, more often then not, they will be able to push out with the army they have and crush the terran while building reinforcements in base to deal with the other drops. It happens in mid-master level play a lot, i drop to kill of a few pylons powering gateways and the main nexus. The toss pushes out and kills me with chargelots/ forcefields and 3 collosus.


Given this, it is possible that provoking the large engagement was part of Noblesse's plan, intending to force an army trade to provide him with the room to perform these drop antics.
There is no Cow Level
Roynalf
Profile Joined August 2011
Finland886 Posts
December 18 2011 16:36 GMT
#30
Thank you for this, was very helpful analysis
(V) (;,,;) (V) Woopwoopwoopwoop
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
December 18 2011 16:38 GMT
#31
On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.

um... so i shouldnt post?
basic push n drop stuff is fine yea but all this dropping around and around in every base for 4 minutes is not standard by any means and that was what I was referring to by "drop antics"
@KawaiiRiceLighT
BigBossX
Profile Joined September 2008
United Kingdom357 Posts
December 18 2011 17:11 GMT
#32
On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.


What does the skill gap really have to do with anything? The OP is an analysis of very high level play, and kawaii made a very good point (which didn't immediately occur to me, and probably a lot of other players).

Also your point of toss overreacting is a little off, even players at high diamond are conscious of a small drop at one base could and usually is followed up by a big push at another base.

Also I don't think you are taking into account how noblesse sniped pretty much every observer on the map, something most players who are not pro are not going to do, so toss players below that level are likely to have more intel on the map. But at the end of the day, kawaii's point is extremely valid that toss will have more than enough to deflect these drop antics without any big prior engagements, your point is pretty much "you can rely on toss making a mistake and overreacting" Is that how you like to win? hoping your opponent makes a mistake? (that is quite frankly not as common as it used to be)
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
December 18 2011 17:14 GMT
#33
Now that's how you do an analysis.
Tailss
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden233 Posts
December 18 2011 17:27 GMT
#34
One of the better analysis I have ever read! Good job!
PoisedYeTi
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia167 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 17:37:30
December 18 2011 17:37 GMT
#35
Don't give those dirty terrans any idea haha. Protoss player chiming in.

Excellent analysis! One of the better threads in the strategy forum I have read in a while.
"Just read game like book" -WhiteRa
Whynaut
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada367 Posts
December 18 2011 17:37 GMT
#36
On December 18 2011 15:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Moved to SC2 Strategy.


That must have felt strange.
Arcane86
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States68 Posts
December 18 2011 18:31 GMT
#37
On December 19 2011 02:37 Whynaut wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2011 15:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Moved to SC2 Strategy.


That must have felt strange.


Very strange indeed. I didn't put it there myself because I didn't think it fit with any of the declared tags. It's very rewarding to have it moved there for me
There is no Cow Level
Huitzi
Profile Joined November 2011
United States33 Posts
December 18 2011 22:57 GMT
#38
No, to me it doesn't matter the rank, what matters is the paths for drops and the paths for flanks, etc. A great strategical mind and you have it. If you're still willing to be my coach, I'll be grateful, I'm Huitzi and #563. I work on my maps and positioning a lot, from the days that I played Company of Heroes, I worked so hard on it to get to the top of the ladder, I want to do the same with SC2 but I need the help of great minds like yours.
Willzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom774 Posts
December 19 2011 00:24 GMT
#39
Kawaii is quite right that with ideal play a protoss can shutdown this kind of harassment. However very few protoss actually manage to do this. These sorts of tactics can work brilliantly vs most players below GM, and occasionally the odd pro player as well.

Remember that the dreaded chargelot/archon build doesn't have blink stalkers so you can drop at your leisure Or indeed many other greedy/aggressive builds that protoss often use.
aviator116
Profile Joined November 2011
United States820 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-19 00:51:22
December 19 2011 00:48 GMT
#40
wow great job analysis!!
no idea how long it took for you to analyze all this, but its much appreciated

as a protoss/terran player, the only way toss can stop all this harass is to divide his army and leave blink stalkers in his main, and have fantastic multi-tasking. even if they shut down the harass, you'll force them to devote more forces back home and delay any pushes that com ut.
Bogus ST_Life IMMVP
NoisyNinja
Profile Joined February 2011
United States991 Posts
December 19 2011 03:51 GMT
#41
The marine move back with marauders in front was genius. That should help me win some more of my TvPs.
FoxTheDream
Profile Joined December 2011
13 Posts
December 19 2011 10:37 GMT
#42
On December 19 2011 01:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.

um... so i shouldnt post?
basic push n drop stuff is fine yea but all this dropping around and around in every base for 4 minutes is not standard by any means and that was what I was referring to by "drop antics"


From your perspective what is the best way a Terran should approach trying to beat Protoss. I am really struggling with the MU and it seems that Protoss are getting better and better at defending the harassment and just sitting on 3 bases until they have 200/200 army with +3 attack +3 armour. Throw in the AOE like colosus, HT and archons and my army just melts. I know that I need to work on micro. Watching the replays I am often way ahead and just end up loosing. My army size can be 1K to 2K mienrals and gas bigger to no avail. Looking through the latest posts it would seem that a lot more terrans, like myself, are having problems with Protoss as compared to Protoss having problems with Terrans.
shivver
Profile Joined June 2011
United States232 Posts
December 19 2011 11:30 GMT
#43
What KawaiiRice said, I learned nothing new here :/
Arcane86
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States68 Posts
December 19 2011 13:20 GMT
#44
On December 19 2011 19:37 FoxTheDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 01:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.

um... so i shouldnt post?
basic push n drop stuff is fine yea but all this dropping around and around in every base for 4 minutes is not standard by any means and that was what I was referring to by "drop antics"


From your perspective what is the best way a Terran should approach trying to beat Protoss. I am really struggling with the MU and it seems that Protoss are getting better and better at defending the harassment and just sitting on 3 bases until they have 200/200 army with +3 attack +3 armour. Throw in the AOE like colosus, HT and archons and my army just melts. I know that I need to work on micro. Watching the replays I am often way ahead and just end up loosing. My army size can be 1K to 2K mienrals and gas bigger to no avail. Looking through the latest posts it would seem that a lot more terrans, like myself, are having problems with Protoss as compared to Protoss having problems with Terrans.


I've heard day[9] talk about how the terran bioball has reasonable strength in small numbers while the protoss death-ball is much weaker until all the pieces get put together. KawaiiRice noted the initial engagement kept Protoss's unit count low. Noblesse forced that engagement to happen by poking at the Assimilator from the low ground, making the engagement happen in an open field, giving him lots of room to stutter-step. It's possible that TvP strategies need to revolve around midgame aggression/army-trades to keep the protoss from reaching the 200/200 deathball state.
There is no Cow Level
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-19 13:35:52
December 19 2011 13:34 GMT
#45
On December 19 2011 19:37 FoxTheDream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2011 01:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
On December 19 2011 00:02 statikg wrote:
On December 18 2011 17:16 KawaiiRice wrote:
Noblesse was only really allowed to do all these drop antics because Bischu engaged at 14 minutes meaning he couldn't split his army efficiently during the drop period because his army was so small. ;;

if that engage hadn't happened the blink stalker count + zealots would have been too much for small drops to happen


Kawaii you are an excellent player but sometimes I feel that you are not aware of the skill gap between pros and even mid masters. I would say that by 3base timing a drop is quite likely to cause an overreaction of enough of the protoss army for long enough that the rest of your forces can snipe the 3rd all the way up to mid masters. When you post so negatively on a subject you really influence alot of people to say "oh well I won't even bother if a pro says its not good". But in fact, it is good for most people and its especially important that low level terrans start to work on these kind of tactics even if they will need to learn the details of how it works later on a bit differently. That comes with experience.

um... so i shouldnt post?
basic push n drop stuff is fine yea but all this dropping around and around in every base for 4 minutes is not standard by any means and that was what I was referring to by "drop antics"


From your perspective what is the best way a Terran should approach trying to beat Protoss. I am really struggling with the MU and it seems that Protoss are getting better and better at defending the harassment and just sitting on 3 bases until they have 200/200 army with +3 attack +3 armour. Throw in the AOE like colosus, HT and archons and my army just melts. I know that I need to work on micro. Watching the replays I am often way ahead and just end up loosing. My army size can be 1K to 2K mienrals and gas bigger to no avail. Looking through the latest posts it would seem that a lot more terrans, like myself, are having problems with Protoss as compared to Protoss having problems with Terrans.

winning the big engage is the most important thing to shifting a TvP into your favor. If your micro is poor and you're in a 200 vs 200 situation then you're probably going to lose the engage, then lose to warpins.
you should try to set up an ideal battle where P is coming into you and you have good spread/are able to emp everything (cloak helps infinitely). If your army composition is off (not enough / too many vikings) that will make you lose as well. If you win the big engage and have a bank then you should win the game. Pretty tough micro wars. But extremely off topic from the OP ~~

@ Arcane
yea thats what it is oo
@KawaiiRiceLighT
awakenx
Profile Joined May 2011
United States341 Posts
December 21 2011 21:09 GMT
#46
Awesome, this thread just proved all the "chargelots OP nerf nerfnerf1!!11111oneone hueheuuehueh" threads wrong... very good analysis. I'll ditch TvP just for this :D. I never used drops when I played bio; I was too busy trying to land EMPs instead... hahahahaha but there's no way I'll do this as well as Noblesse xD
WorstMicroNA
hyunGGe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States108 Posts
December 21 2011 21:37 GMT
#47
this post is quite a gem. very good analysis. btw are there any replays, not just vods of the games?
Jugem-Jugem Shit-Tossing The Life Of Shin-chan's Two-Day-Old Underwear Balmung Fezalion Isaac Schneider 1/3True Love 2/3 Hangnail Anxiety Betrayal Knows My Name Or Does It Really Ignore Calls Squid Dogfish Halibut Trout-Cod Dogfish This Is a Different Dog
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
December 21 2011 21:44 GMT
#48
Wow. This has helped me so much. Why did I never think of moving my marines to the back! Thanks man.
JBlaze187
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada37 Posts
December 21 2011 22:09 GMT
#49
Ya I watched this game live myself and was thoroughly impressed with the drop play going on. I'm glad OP took the time to highlight the exact pathing he took and how it enabled him to gain a significant advantage. Good read thanks.
Sp4cem4nSpiff
Profile Joined September 2011
United States46 Posts
December 22 2011 09:42 GMT
#50
Great Post!! Very Helpful TY
Professionals are predictable, but the world is full of Amateurs.
Nightshake
Profile Joined November 2010
France412 Posts
December 22 2011 21:45 GMT
#51
This is awesome, but agree with KawaiiRice.
alepoff
Profile Joined January 2012
140 Posts
January 27 2012 21:24 GMT
#52
Well this is nice and all, but noblesse is 10 times the player bischu is. Anyone can do whatever the hell he wants vs a player who's basically in a lower league and make it look strong :/
let's bounce
Nibbler89
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
884 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-27 23:48:42
January 27 2012 23:47 GMT
#53
On January 28 2012 06:24 alepoff wrote:
Well this is nice and all, but noblesse is 10 times the player bischu is. Anyone can do whatever the hell he wants vs a player who's basically in a lower league and make it look strong :/

Yup, when you have a 30 supply lead drops are obviously amazing because protoss can't split his army. When supplies are equal like they should be barring protoss making a huge error though, and drops can become a liability if blink is done especially if you don't have the multitask to keep your drops alive while keeping up on macro.

This is more of a good guide for explaining how to not lose to protoss once you gain a lead assuming you can keep up on macro while having the micro /multitask to do this type of drop play.
NoctemSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States771 Posts
January 28 2012 04:43 GMT
#54
This is situational but it's still really well put together.
You've explained multi pronged attacks and placement of units in a way that someone from any league could understand

That being said, I'll just leave this here.

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